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So, colonists need joy, but never get the urge to take a pee? Shouldn't there be a 'Bowels' happiness in their needs, just for realism! LOL

No. I get realism, but it's a stupid idea. Having your colonists leave work for something that would probably take 5 ticks, aka it would take longer for them to walk back to it each time then do the work. And if you added this hygiene, showers and such would be higher priority then literal crap.

In my opinion this is getting too micromanage-y. Colonists are already needy enough i think.

Quote from: twoski on August 30, 2015, 02:46:59 PM
In my opinion this is getting too micromanage-y. Colonists are already needy enough i think.

As much as I tend to feel there SHOULD be toilets and such (at least for aesthetics as clutter) yes, this would cause WAY more problems than it would give. :P

All colonist bowels are emptied by the colon fairy while they sleep.

solution would be to rebalance the activity ticks.

walking, eating, sleeping, etc.. some activities are taking too long. if that's the only reason not to add activities like pooping/peeing, and drinking. then it would be better to rebalance the activity ticks so colonists get to do more activities per day.

right now, even though their entire day is just a few minutes in real time. eating, sleeping, etc.. compared to other activities seems to be taking too darn long in proportion to other activities.

Quote from: Louisthebadassrimworlder on August 30, 2015, 08:42:34 AM
So, colonists need joy, but never get the urge to take a pee? Shouldn't there be a 'Bowels' happiness in their needs, just for realism! LOL

I am supporting this. Just because it will make RimWorld more Fallout'ey (I mean the old ones) and it would be good for it. Those toilets and shit all over the place could give much for space colony's atmosphere. Just imagine those sieging raider's camps!

(http://i.imgur.com/MAq5vkJ.jpg)

Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 30, 2015, 02:41:36 PM
No. I get realism, but it's a stupid idea. Having your colonists leave work for something that would probably take 5 ticks, aka it would take longer for them to walk back to it each time then do the work. And if you added this hygiene, showers and such would be higher priority then literal crap.

This just means, that you should build smarter infrastructure for your colony, so your colonists would not travel all day to pee in a toilet.

Also should be able to "fulfill the needs" just anywhere if the toilet is too far.

This is what I was thinking...

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Thanks!

I support this +1

Just keep in mind that I'm a Simulationist at heart and almost anything that increases the simulation is good in my book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_Theory  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_Theory)

Me too, Jester! Thanks for the support. Inevitably, realism tends to be unpopular when creating these sorts of games, which is why I'm so stoked that there has even been support!

Quote from: Louisthebadassrimworlder on August 31, 2015, 11:51:17 AM
Me too, Jester! Thanks for the support. Inevitably, realism tends to be unpopular when creating these sorts of games, which is why I'm so stoked that there has even been support!

I wouldn't say that realism is 'unpopular' but how far do you go? So you have toilets, then you need a hygiene system. With a hygiene system you need water, which will inevitably will make people want it as a resource. Not all water is safe to drink and then we have a contamination system the devs need to implement. Then the entire 'cleaning' system needs to be overhauled because dirt makes edibles contaminated and may make pawns sick. Wounds and sickness shouldn't heal in a few hours it should takes a few weeks, if we want to be realistic.

To make these systems work you're going to need more time in a single day of Rimworld, so say they triple the time of a single day so that pawns can do their jobs, eat (three times a day), use the toilet (several times), wash, have 'fun', fight. Sickness and wounds should take weeks to heal at least with medical treatment...

Raids are often by the same few factions, so to be realistic they should have several months between raids so that they can afford to send the men and resources against our colony, eventually they wouldn't attack at all because realistically they know they couldn't win.

Eventually, to be as realistic as possible, we're staring at a screen for a few hours where absolutely nothing happens for months of in game time.

Adding just toilets is like just adding a bicycle. A single bicycle would require an entire mount system that would make access to tons of different types of transportation. Just toilets would require a hygiene and water system that would give access to tons of other stuff too.

Quote from: Spectre on August 31, 2015, 09:04:21 PM

Quote from: Louisthebadassrimworlder on August 31, 2015, 11:51:17 AM
Me too, Jester! Thanks for the support. Inevitably, realism tends to be unpopular when creating these sorts of games, which is why I'm so stoked that there has even been support!

I wouldn't say that realism is 'unpopular' but how far do you go? So you have toilets, then you need a hygiene system. With a hygiene system you need water, which will inevitably will make people want it as a resource. Not all water is safe to drink and then we have a contamination system the devs need to implement. Then the entire 'cleaning' system needs to be overhauled because dirt makes edibles contaminated and may make pawns sick. Wounds and sickness shouldn't heal in a few hours it should takes a few weeks, if we want to be realistic.

To make these systems work you're going to need more time in a single day of Rimworld, so say they triple the time of a single day so that pawns can do their jobs, eat (three times a day), use the toilet (several times), wash, have 'fun', fight. Sickness and wounds should take weeks to heal at least with medical treatment...

Raids are often by the same few factions, so to be realistic they should have several months between raids so that they can afford to send the men and resources against our colony, eventually they wouldn't attack at all because realistically they know they couldn't win.

Eventually, to be as realistic as possible, we're staring at a screen for a few hours where absolutely nothing happens for months of in game time.

I think all of what you said here is an awesome Idea, I already want increased day length because the current one is too short for my taste.

Having medical treatment take a few month without "Glitter World" nano bot medicine seems like it could change how you handle combat completely and that goes double if you combine it with toned down/more realistic raids and combat.

I mean the current system is kind of ridiculous as they will attack with 100 guys be defeated and then attack again with more using the same strategy? and yes you should be able to foster a impenetrable fortress reputation where no one attack because they know they won't win.

As an example many DF players have complained about the world simulations effect on goblins, before the update the game just generated goblin sieges of increasing numbers as long as you where on the same land mass but the world simulation update meant that you only get goblin sieges if your fort is with in a certain distance of the goblins civ and that the size of the siege is dependent on the goblins civ population.

While I miss the massive 200 strong sieges, I like the fact that its all run off a simulation more and have adjusted my play style to get the most out of the new system.

I've long since accepted that most people don't like that level of realism and so I generally have to do without but I will support ideas that increase the simulation because I find that to be enjoyable.

not wanting to simulate stuff because it might add complexity to the game is daft.

every alpha adds complexity, and the game has only improved with every alpha. water as a resource could be annoying to implement, but it adds a bunch of depth to the game. so does all that other stuff. as it is, i spend large chunks of time staring at a screen with very little of import happening... things happen, they just arent all that important. the decisions making is the fun stuff, and you cant make decisions without depth.

admittedly, if were gonna add complexity, pawn pooping probably isnt at the top of my wish list lol

The paramount question is always, "What does it add to the gameplay?"

At the moment it appears to simply be added complexity for the sake of added complexity, which is terrible design. The game is an abstraction, taking the broad strokes of things your colonists need to survive and concentrating on that....even in this regard they still only eat once per day, but that's fine because the need for sustenance is abstracted to keep the gameplay effective. They will go looking for food about once per day, and you have to make sure it is provided. Bam. Done.

Adding toilet requirements is pointless. It doesn't enhance the gameplay or provide an interesting challenge to basic survival like maintaining a food supply does. All we get is another Sims style bar compelling me to designate The Shitting Zone before I subsequently forget about it forever. Except now and then to be annoyed at the meaningless waste of already abstracted time in the game that's taken by the laborious journey to Fulfill The Extraneous Sims Needs Bar.

Our colonists need to take a dump the same way Captain Picard does; it's presumably something he does, but it doesn't bloody matter to the story.

Ok. There seems to be conflicted views here! First off, the thing with it drifting towards Sims is definitely not something I want for the game. Don't get me wrong, I love the Sims series (Up until Sims 3, Sims 4 sucks!), but it doesn't fit in Rimworld no matter how much you try. Second, the micromanagement. Please explain. I don't get why adding in water would be too much of an issue for players, as we have already dealt with power being implemented, and building a basic toilet can't hurt you. You wouldn't need to micromanage, just make it like blood. If it isn't bandaged (peed, in this case!) then it goes on the floor! This would make an actual reason to add one in. Next, the colonists would do it on the basis of maybe once a day, and take about as much time as it takes to cremate a body. And, for the sake of only adding it in for complexity, isn't that what Alpha 10 was? The joy system doesn't add anything fun to the game, it just adds more time and effort to fulfil. We have coped with this, why can't we cope with something as simple as toilets?

Because waste management is different from joy management.

Quote from: Louisthebadassrimworlder on September 02, 2015, 12:37:18 PMThe joy system doesn't add anything fun to the game, it just adds more time and effort to fulfil. We have coped with this, why can't we cope with something as simple as toilets?

The joy system abstracts the mental health of your colonists and their existence as people, as opposed to robotic automatons who live only for the glory of the big giant pointer that rules their lives. If anything, the joy system makes adding toilets and whatnot to the game even more irrelevant. It smooshes together the general idea that your goons need time off from work because they're people and not robots. Adding further intricate detail to the fact they need time to do things other than work is needless.

You're not answering the question of what this adds to the game, besides some vague allusion to water systems. A water system as a necessity of crafting and as part of the food system is blatantly obvious in what it adds to the gameplay. Finding water, accessing it, and defending the supply for various food, crafting, and growing purposes makes sense as a gameplay addition, one which would further define certain starts (deserts become hell). But this isn't about a hypothetical water system, this is about toilets and pooping. Even with a water system, this is a thing that adds no interesting mechanisms or concerns to gameplay, it's just....there. It's a little irritation which is meaningless and exists only for the sake of it.

Rimworld already runs on abstractions, and you're steadfastly refusing to provide any good reason why dumping is something that should be taken out of the abstraction and given its own specific detail.

SaintD, joy, as you said, highlights colonists existence as people. So, we constantly go on walks and play pool and horseshoes, but we never use the toilet? You have basically just contradicted yourself by saying that joy is only in the game to make the colonists more relatable to real life. This is exactly what toilets will do.

I think adding toilets is a good idea too. (and a water system will arrive soon or later I'm sure of that)
Using toilets will give a mood bonus to colonnists and if there aren't any toilets pawns will just do their thing in the dumping zone.

I'm game for sure but there is gonna come a point where ither we'll need much much longer days just so our colonists can accomplish anything of worth or a complete job/time re-balancing. Joy and pee and poo and babies and pets and sexy sexy and pew pew and drama oh my..... not enough time in a RW day for all that fun haha.

So I guess I can see Zombie's point but it's hard to argue with wanting the basics of a survival manager in a survival game..... would really like to see at least a thirst need. That line keeps getting further and further away  ::)

I remember there being a mod for this. I dunno if it's up to date but it exists out there. Try nudging the creator for updates. Never tried it myself so I can't say exactly if toilets are something worth adding to the game. I'm pretty meh about this idea.

Then it gets implemented along with specific sculptures about it.

The Sitting Man
Beauty - 1024
The sculpture depicts Colonist McColon sitting on a golden toilet with a pale and horrified expression. There is a lack of toilet paper on the side. The art suggests the concept of hardship and suffering. Colonist McColon can be seen reaching for his gun.

They can pee on rocks and trees :P

Not until my colonists start washing their hands!!!

Bathrooms sound like an intriguing idea, but like others have said, the days already seem a bit too short to accomplish a whole lot as it is, adding in another forced time sink activity feels kind of pointless to me. (And reminds me of the bladder busting scenes from the Sims when you keep them too busy for a pee break.)

That said I would like to see not just toilets but also showers/baths in the game as joy objects since it would help to make bases feel complete, and then their use would be scripted as one of the random "joy" task colonists take, meaning they'll occasionaly go bathe or pee instead of playing horseshoes or chess and, giving us bathrooms that are used without sucking up more of a colonists day.

I'll just chime in because I like the topic and upping the sim factor: Yes to toilets.

Btw, just to point out a huge [mis]assumption: No, adding a system like bladder doesn't in any way or circumstance imply the need to develop another system. No where in gaming this is a thing, EVERYTHING is modular and, like pointed out, depends on what is (or should) be good to gameplay-theme of the game.

Then there's the "too many needs+microing" argument. Although i'm against having to do extra dumb labor, managing stuff isn't one of them. After all, this game isn't a builder or a combat rts, its a survival managment game. The hybrid nature does bring some confusion to the mix, like people being odd against the joy system because their pawns would spend less time being brainless robots amassing resources (go figure). So, imo, rimworld profits for whatever system that adds to the challenge of making it feel like a survival game where i can manage stuff. Yes, waste isn't pretty, but its a real challenge.

That said, the sims was pretty annoying on how needy the lil bitches were, always whinning and wetting themselves, spending a whole hour just to eating a fucking cereal or taking a shower. Goes without saying that should a toilet/hygiene system comes a day-tick balance would follow.

A good compromise that i've been thinking and that Lady Wolf beat me to it, is using the already in place joy system to introduce bladder and hygiene. Not having a toilet only means that pawn wouln'd have to walk to a bush to relieve himself, possibly getting joy/mood from a confortable seat amidst a bad situation. Same for a shower, although a skinny dipping in the local lake should still be a possibility heh. (although a separate system specially for waste wouldn't be a...waste).

Some people might not get it, but the simple fact that there's a usable restroom makes a whole base a lot more believable. Watching pawns go to the bathroom might not produce any palpable benefit, like mining steel, but seeing how lively this makes things is worth it, and believe me thats fun.

Good ideas, Wolf!

Quote from: Louisthebadassrimworlder on August 30, 2015, 08:42:34 AM
So, colonists need joy, but never get the urge to take a pee? Shouldn't there be a 'Bowels' happiness in their needs, just for realism! LOL

This is not Prison Architect :P

Maybe instead of toilets (plumbing would be a huge pain to program, I would at least think, and annoying to set up) either outhouses or portapottyies

I feel stupid for voting no because now i actually want to have toilets and all it entails.

Like others i like the idea that; It should just be implemented into the Fun category, they would happen to use just a tree or a bush and suffer a minor mood debuf (or not).

I would love to see plumbing and irrigation in addition to having water.
- Pipes for water transfer, plumbing and irrigation.
- Water tanks for storage
- Outhouses (for early game), toilets and showers added for just a bit more creativity.
- Farming irrigation so that plants get a bonus or simply don't die if not in hydroponics and aren't watered

Tynan also has mentioned that he himself has noticed that there are discrepancies with the time and how long pawns take to do stuff compared to other things in game. I wouldn't mind just seeing much longer days accompanied with much faster fast forwarding

Quote from: Louisthebadassrimworlder on September 02, 2015, 01:32:51 PM
SaintD, joy, as you said, highlights colonists existence as people. So, we constantly go on walks and play pool and horseshoes, but we never use the toilet? You have basically just contradicted yourself by saying that joy is only in the game to make the colonists more relatable to real life. This is exactly what toilets will do.

I didn't contradict myself, because you're trying to pick out a single strawman and beat it to death. You are STILL not providing any compelling reason whatsoever that toilets need to be a relevant part of the game that requires such specific attention.

What I actually said was that the joy system already abstracts the general need for pawns not to work all day, and actually makes the addition of toilets as a functional need even more irrelevant. Your basic argument is one of weighing down the game with little details when it quite clearly isn't that game. Every argument FOR toilets as a serviced need ends up having to quite pathetically change the concept of time itself in the game in order to accommodate it. That's stupid, and bad design. Plumbing and irrigation, WATER as a need, not toilets....fantastic. Toilets in themselves....stupid.

As I already pointed out, to pound the point into your head again since you're likely just gonna stick beat a strawman again, toilets don't create any gameplay that's worth having. On their own they're an almost immediately forgotten little detail you plonk down and forget about forever. they're an irritating distraction every time you start up a new colony. With an operational water system in play....they're still an almost forgotten little detail you plonk down as an afterthought and forget about forever, because you're building a plumbing system to fulfill the far more interesting and gameplay relevant need to secure and manage your water supply for food and drink.

Everyone who thinks toilets is a good idea seems to end up talking about and getting excited about the water system aspect of it, and with good reason, because a water system would be great. But as I ALSO said earlier, this isn't about a water system, it's about toilets and dumping, which in and of themselves are a detail that simply doesn't need to be taken out of the abstract of a colonist's day.

Toilets utterly fail the "What does this add to the gameplay?" question, and now they're trying to pork barrel their way in as a rider on the water system bill. I utterly reject that. A water system in no way requires toilets as a part of it, and you're still not giving any sort of decent gameplay reason why it should be relevant.

It would be fun for toilets as furniture to be added in for flavor, but they should not be mandatory, and a Sims-style bladder bar is certainly not what's in order. Colonists could just visit them once in a while when they have nothing else to do, or as part of the joy mechanic.

It's sci-fi, why not simply add in a "workbench" which is a self contained all-in-one ablutions chamber, the equivalent of shower and toilet. Much neater, and less childish for those inclined, than having dedicated seperate bathroom facilities.