I thought id make a thread for people to discuss defensive structures and what they would like to see implemented.
Personally I'm all for land mines and barbed wire for a start (the classics never die) but at a later stage i would definitely like to see some more advanced and specialized structures like laser turrets and even energy shielding at a very advanced level. of course any beefing up in the power and diversity of defenses means there needs to be an increase in the power of enemies and the variety of threats you can end up facing.
Also maybe some more creative traps... particularly the sort that can catch people alive.
+1 for traps.
I think bunkers would be good. Whether they be wood and debris piled on top of eachother or a full-structure. Something to give your colonists more cover in the event of a firefight
What's funny is that barbed wire and traps have been in the game for a long time (dating back to when it was a tactical squad game and before). I just need to "reactivate" them. Perhaps I'll do that tomorrow; they're relatively simple really. I really like simple ideas.
Quote from: Tynan on October 08, 2013, 02:29:28 AM
What's funny is that barbed wire and traps have been in the game for a long time (dating back to when it was a tactical squad game and before). I just need to "reactivate" them. Perhaps I'll do that tomorrow; they're relatively simple really. I really like simple ideas.
Simple ideas that create depth in their implementation are the best. (Along those lines: I really loved your emergent ecology post. Very interesting effect of game mechanics) Also, it's great that you're so involved with the community!
Quote from: CommieKazie on October 08, 2013, 02:36:15 AM
Quote from: Tynan on October 08, 2013, 02:29:28 AM
What's funny is that barbed wire and traps have been in the game for a long time (dating back to when it was a tactical squad game and before). I just need to "reactivate" them. Perhaps I'll do that tomorrow; they're relatively simple really. I really like simple ideas.
Simple ideas that create depth in their implementation are the best. (Along those lines: I really loved your emergent ecology post. Very interesting effect of game mechanics) Also, it's great that you're so involved with the community!
I wish I could be more so... but time feels very limited. Anyway I suspect you guys want me to actually make a game not hang out on the forums all the time :)
Quote from: Tynan on October 08, 2013, 02:29:28 AM
What's funny is that barbed wire and traps have been in the game for a long time (dating back to when it was a tactical squad game and before). I just need to "reactivate" them. Perhaps I'll do that tomorrow; they're relatively simple really. I really like simple ideas.
YAY barbed wire may seem simple but in my experience with games like this its the combinations of seemingly simplistic elements like barbed wire and auto turrets that can create hours of extremely complex, not to mention bloodthirsty fun.
Also had a question about the games psychology. Ive noticed that raiders flee occasionally is their morale calculated as a group? Or is it an individual thing?
Quote from: walti921 on October 08, 2013, 05:54:10 AM
Also had a question about the games psychology. Ive noticed that raiders flee occasionally is their morale calculated as a group? Or is it an individual thing?
Using the Search (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?action=search) function with "raiders" and "flee" gave me a few answers, among which:
http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=12.msg64#msg64
"
The raiders currently flee if they take a certain % of losses; I want them to be a bit less lethal in general so I may reduce this and have them flee in a wider variety of circumstances. Or just, say, kidnap one colonist and leave. The always-lethal-genocidal attacks have a way of cutting stories short."
Here's a possible late game defense - Anti-Air/Ship turrets. Expensive to make, perhaps requiring rare or expensive ammunition, these would shoot down pods of incoming raiding parties to reduce the number of pirates that manage to land or have them land with some health reduction. An anti-ship version could deter an attack altogether, though wouldn't have a 100% success rate when fired and have a long cool down or would be inordinately expensive to use every time.
;D Traps! Watching a raider fall into a pit camouflaged with leaves and dirt to take prisoner/hostage is something I could enjoy for days.
Barbed wire is a classic and I'd like to see it introduced, but the question remains in what way are they superior/inferior to walls or sandbags, there should be a pro & con to each, but I'm not seeing a pro to using barbed wire instead of walls as they can be blown up with a grenade just the same.
Maybe if there was a system of your colonists can pass back and forth over barbed wire without getting injured, but an enemy has to take a health-reduction to cross it. Otherwise it's defensive potential would just be an another wall with a small gap to create a choke point.
While it's a bit morally questionable I like the idea of having lethal gas in the game in some way. If not lethal then you could have knockout gas pumped into a room/trap or a grenade to capture prisoners without running the risk of killing them.
Well, having lived on a farm... the purpose of barbed wire is to keep livestock from crossing it. They brush up on it, the barbs prick them, and they back off - but if they really don't care, they will break through (and get ripped up a bit).
So I would see Barbed Wire as giving no cover, not breaking line of sight, and be a minor deterrent - you can cross it slowly (reduce movement speed 50%) and take no damage, or cross it fast and take damage. Which might be hard to put in the game, so I'd say just give it a speed reduction - yeah, I like that.
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 08, 2013, 10:23:24 AMBarbed wire is a classic and I'd like to see it introduced, but the question remains in what way are they superior/inferior to walls or sandbags, there should be a pro & con to each, but I'm not seeing a pro to using barbed wire instead of walls as they can be blown up with a grenade just the same.
Walls:
Blocks line of sight, as well as movement. Used for structures and whatnot. Unless you put slits in them and reinforce them (concrete bunker-like walls) they are not defensive structures. Bullets pass though your drywall and insulation with no problem. The bunker-type walls would not even get scratched by a grenade.
Sandbags:
Cover, slow/restrict movement. They're only really used to take cover behind and slow/stop bullet/shrapnel movement. They make you harder to hit and you wouldn't want to put them downrange because you'd be giving your targets cover.
They're also would be good to against flooding to restrict water movement. (Which might be a reason you'd have sandbags downrange. Say you're protecting your crops. Now raiders have a nice spot of cover to work with. Interesting...)
Barbed Wire:
No restriction to sight, provides no cover. Restricts movement. I don't think it should just give a movement debuff, because it'd be pretty hard to cross. But that also depends on the wire we're making...
Barbed:
http://www.moyne.vic.gov.au/page/imageThumbnail.asp?C_Id=1932&preview=Concertina/razor:
http://img.weiku.com/waterpicture/2011/10/30/16/Razor_Wire_Fencing_634557395976743179_3.jpgThe second is much more likely to be impassable, and re-direct raider movement. But why would you build one for livestock, and another for enemies? Having two nearly identical structures is unnecessary bloat. Why not just make chain-link fences with a bit of razor wire across the top? Stops movement unless they cut it, works for livestock and raiders. Done and done.
And rather than giving every raider a speed debuff, it'd make more sense for one to crouch and cut, and then him and his buddies can pour through the hole. (Or toss a satchel charge, etc...)
Barbed wire would have no effect except to slow all character movement. This is ground-spread military wire.
Keeping animals would use low fences, a separate building. Not that you can keep animals (yet).
Here's what the barbwire looks like for the time being:
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130928134430/rimworld/images/6/6e/BarbedWire.png) (http://rimworld.wikia.com/wiki/File:BarbedWire.png)
Quote from: British on October 08, 2013, 01:10:13 PM
Here's what the barbwire looks like for the time being:
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130928134430/rimworld/images/6/6e/BarbedWire.png) (http://rimworld.wikia.com/wiki/File:BarbedWire.png)
Ahhh, I was picturing the concentric coils on the beaches type, not the training field type. Interesting, it could provide new scenarios for raiding. Can they fire while crossing it at the aforementioned slowed pace?
Also I didn't know you could go over sandbags, haven't seen it in Alpha footage and don't have Pre-Alpha Access until November 1st :'(
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 08, 2013, 01:48:49 PM
Also I didn't know you could go over sandbags, haven't seen it in Alpha footage and don't have Pre-Alpha Access until November 1st :'(
I don't know if you're basing your sandbag line off of what I said (because I haven't seen anything else along those lines) but I don't know. I likewise don't have pre-alpha until November. I was just basing that description off of reality. But that doesn't always translate to video games, haha.
(I see no reason characters shouldn't be able to vault sandbags...)
Sandbags have a crossing penalty, so colonists tend to avoid them when moving around normally. However when drafting a colonist you can make him cross at low speed.
Quote from: Tynan on October 08, 2013, 02:29:28 AM
I wish I could be more so... but time feels very limited. Anyway I suspect you guys want me to actually make a game not hang out on the forums all the time :)
Honestly, I'm surprised you are able to keep on programming on the game. From what I've seen of most kickstarter campaigns, the devs stop working on the game the full month of the kickstarter to dedicate themselves fully to marketing/pr.
Just had another thought for defensive structures, that are already in the game - Dumping Areas. Forbid bodies, fill it with debris, and make a line of them. Debris slows movement speed... ;)
They also provide better cover than sandbags, which is a good things for potential attackers. Just sayin' ;)
This has already been evoked in http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=155.0
Watchtower - I'm probably not the first one with this idea, but I could not find any mention of it in this thread.
I believe that the fog of war will be implemented sooner or later. Obvious functions - improved line of sight, range of weapons maybe?
Quote from: Adamemnon on October 08, 2013, 03:12:53 PM
Watchtower - I'm probably not the first one with this idea, but I could not find any mention of it in this thread.
I believe that the fog of war will be implemented sooner or later. Obvious functions - improved line of sight, range of weapons maybe?
Ahhh, well there's the root of it. We currently are divided on whether FoW or Uncertainty Veil (as it's coined for Rimworld) will be in the game; even as an optional toggle considering the difficulty getting it to work will have [verified by Tynan].
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 08, 2013, 03:16:20 PM
Ahhh, well there's the root of it. We currently are divided on whether FoW or Uncertainty Veil (as it's coined for Rimworld) will be in the game; even as an optional toggle considering the difficulty getting it to work will have [verified by Tynan].
It's worth it. I can't seem to think of any disadvantage. It adds a lot of fun to the game. Searching for resources, patrolling so that pirates can't surprise you. You should not even know that they have landed unless you have a radar or something. It would be very disappointing if it's not at least an option.
Quote from: Adamemnon on October 08, 2013, 03:36:22 PM
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 08, 2013, 03:16:20 PM
Ahhh, well there's the root of it. We currently are divided on whether FoW or Uncertainty Veil (as it's coined for Rimworld) will be in the game; even as an optional toggle considering the difficulty getting it to work will have [verified by Tynan].
It's worth it. I can't seem to think of any disadvantage. It adds a lot of fun to the game. Searching for resources, patrolling so that pirates can't surprise you. You should not even know that they have landed unless you have a radar or something. It would be very disappointing if it's not at least an option.
Read up on what's been said, and what Tynan has to say on the subject here:
http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=146.0
Maybe some kind of radar/sensor system should be implemented... if indeed we do end up with fog of war. But even if we don't its still perfectly feasible perhaps if you have a sensor tower (or whatever) built you get early warning of certain events that you otherwise wouldn't..
this could include raids and weather and also adds some great opportunity for tech tree expansion i.e. if you have better sensor tech then you are more likely too or will get earlier warning of different events.
Quote from: Tynan on October 08, 2013, 02:29:28 AM
What's funny is that barbed wire and traps have been in the game for a long time (dating back to when it was a tactical squad game and before). I just need to "reactivate" them. Perhaps I'll do that tomorrow; they're relatively simple really. I really like simple ideas.
Absolutely. This is a golden rule when it comes to indie games. Especially given the sandbox nature. Give us plenty of simple objects to work with and we will grant ourselves a complex narrative. Or a simple one.
The colonists are dying too quickly. This makes it impossible to create a bond with them as it feels like they are just "consumables". The game definitely needs more ways to protect their lives, more defensive structures. Perhaps a bunker (3x3 building with machine gun in it) it should be difficult to destroy it (4-5 grenades or LAWs) and its weak spot would be that it can shoot only in one direction (+/-90 degrees), mines should be also included. It should be much more difficult to recruit imprisoned pirates. Why would they want to join you? Why would any colonist trust them? They tried to kill you remember? Maybe they even managed to kill some of your fellow colonists.
It's starting to grate on my nerves a little that we're answering the same questions over and over. People are suggesting ideas that have already been not only suggested, but debated over for some time already on the appropriate thread or even just a few pages back on the thread they posted on.
Please try and read through as much of the forum as possible before posting.
I'll cry otherwise :'(
PS. Landmines are pretty much in the game already with Blasting Charges, it's a very simple job to add them by cloning that and changing the explosion-trigger from player-activated to enemy-distance-from-mine.
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 09, 2013, 12:42:16 PM
It's starting to grate on my nerves a little that we're answering the same questions over and over. People are suggesting ideas that have already been not only suggested, but debated over for some time already on the appropriate thread or even just a few pages back on the thread they posted on.
Please try and read through as much of the forum as possible before posting.
I'll cry otherwise :'(
PS. Landmines are pretty much in the game already with Blasting Charges, it's a very simple job to add them by cloning that and changing the explosion-trigger from player-activated to enemy-distance-from-mine.
But the raiding parties should have some way of working through the mines.
For instance later in the game or when the storyteller notices it you got them the parties should be equipped with mine detectors or dogs or cannonfodder to get past it.
it would be a shame if we could make impenatrable defences like in dwarf fortress.
Quote from: Semmy on October 09, 2013, 12:45:05 PM
But the raiding parties should have some way of working through the mines.
For instance later in the game or when the storyteller notices it you got them the parties should be equipped with mine detectors or dogs or cannonfodder to get past it.
it would be a shame if we could make impenatrable defences like in dwarf fortress.
Agreed, but surely even at the current theoretical stage of these land mines they wouldn't be impenetrable if you through enough cannon fodder at them or herd a bunch of muffalo ahead of you to set off traps (a very good Raider AI tactic I think would be nice).
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 09, 2013, 12:48:52 PM
Quote from: Semmy on October 09, 2013, 12:45:05 PM
But the raiding parties should have some way of working through the mines.
For instance later in the game or when the storyteller notices it you got them the parties should be equipped with mine detectors or dogs or cannonfodder to get past it.
it would be a shame if we could make impenatrable defences like in dwarf fortress.
Agreed, but surely even at the current theoretical stage of these land mines they wouldn't be impenetrable if you through enough cannon fodder at them or herd a bunch of muffalo ahead of you to set off traps (a very good Raider AI tactic I think would be nice).
Didnt those english defenders abuse buffalo's like that in the movie Zulu's (100+ english defenders fighting off a bunch of angry zulu's)
And yes the game should be able to do that. but like you said we are asking alot of tynan if he should programm this tactic d-;
Quote from: Semmy on October 09, 2013, 12:51:01 PM
And yes the game should be able to do that. but like you said we are asking alot of tynan if he should programm this tactic d-;
Hmmm, it's looking more and more like it'd be nice to have a secondary programmer on the team at Ludeon Studios... this thought coinciding with me bumping up my pledge is unrelated lol. :P
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 09, 2013, 12:53:20 PM
Quote from: Semmy on October 09, 2013, 12:51:01 PM
And yes the game should be able to do that. but like you said we are asking alot of tynan if he should programm this tactic d-;
Hmmm, it's looking more and more like it'd be nice to have a secondary programmer on the team at Ludeon Studios... this thought coinciding with me bumping up my pledge is unrelated lol. :P
Yeah. i pledged because i want a PK d-;
But indeed there are so many awsome ideas i fear tynan won't be done with the game before 2051
If anything, the extra money from the Kickstarter will allow Tynan to continue development longer on his own, letting him put in more new modules and the like, rather then having to hire a second programmer which increases budget more than you would expect.
Quote from: walti921 on October 08, 2013, 02:08:27 AM
Personally I'm all for land mines and barbed wire for a start (the classics never die) but at a later stage i would definitely like to see some more advanced and specialized structures like laser turrets and even energy shielding at a very advanced level.
How about this as a laser turret concept:
Laser turrets should be way slower than a normal turret while using
obscene amounts of energy per shot. Everything in the line of fire should get damaged until the ray either hits rock or the energy of the shot has been converted to damage entirely. The downside, beside the enormous energy hunger, should be that it's deadly most of the time - so there won't be any unconscious raiders to arrest. Only the raider that's hit by the last remaining bit of energy (after everything else has been used up/converted to damage) has a chance to survive.