I came back and noticed the post made by Tynan back in November. The new mechanics they've got going on would really breathe life back into the game, but he explains that he prefers to refrain from rolling out the update until his break is up. As such, do we have an idea of when Tynan is back, bar 'early 2016'?
"Judging by the position of the sun and the moon, probably at the bottom of the ocean by now."
Sometime in/after March.
Really? No one got that?
Thats the sound of forgiveness. ;)
Screaming then silence...
Aside from what Tynan himself has told us in his so very few posts since his departure onto sandy beaches unknown, we don't really know much apart from early 2016, However, keep your hopes up, First of January is also early twenty-sixteen ;)
Remember people Ison has been and maybe still is smashing away at his keyboard (well i hope hes not, it is christmas).
Tynan stated clearly he was taking a six month break (without giving an actual date). The last release was August 29th. So what's six months from September 1st? You now have a date, however I would still only take that as an estimate.
I'd even go as far as to say you have to wait until June. Just wait. :)
Ah, Llamas with hats. such A sad ending to such A great series.
Quote from: Fruit loops on December 24, 2015, 05:10:55 PM
Ah, Llamas with hats. such A sad ending to such A great series.
+
Hello Randy Random
The longer the waiting, the bigger the update. From what I've read what is coming up next, it will be pretty huge! :)
Ah thank god someone got that
As has been said above, he's probably going to return around March. Until then, I hope we can have another news update like the one he made in November.
If I had to guess I would say this game is doomed. It makes me sad because the quality of this development made me buy in after I had declared I would never support early access again.
Taking a 6 months hiatus mid development is a very bad sign. If he had taken a couple of weeks off like a normal person taking holidays I would see it as no problem.
I guess it's the problem with throwing so much money at a guy just starting out.
If I was a betting man I would put money on him starting a new project once gets home and effectively abandoning Rimworld.
Hopefully that's not the case and I invested wisely in this game but I don't have much hope.
^exactly why he didn't do the steam release and he wouldn't abandone us.
Basically he stays on and burns himself out, does a half decent job but his creative juices run dry.
Or
He takes a decent amount of time off and comes back like he first started, full of creativeness and refreshed.
The time off will do nothing but add quality and quantity to the game. Ive seen plenty of devs work their asses off to put out a half assed product cuz they fought to get to release quickly.
Take all the time you need Tynan, id take the game as is for the money i paid for it, if you come back and add a giant update due to all your time off then I for one could not be happier. This is the way to do software development, being a professional myself burnout is a major issue.
Quote from: skullywag on December 23, 2015, 03:27:52 AM
Remember people Ison has been and maybe still is smashing away at his keyboard (well i hope hes not, it is christmas).
You know, after Christmas I am continuously gaining weight, carp and dumplings with cabbage and mushrooms, they can extend the human stomach. Not to mention a sweet food.
Three days of holidays three days of rich food.
Then New Year's Eve, Polish vodka is good and strong.
It is expected a week of fighting with weights and a hangover.
Cheers
And Tynan when he comes back it will tell us, there is nothing to do spins.
Quote from: uglyduckling81 on January 03, 2016, 01:10:24 AM
If I had to guess I would say this game is doomed. It makes me sad because the quality of this development made me buy in after I had declared I would never support early access again.
Taking a 6 months hiatus mid development is a very bad sign. If he had taken a couple of weeks off like a normal person taking holidays I would see it as no problem.
I guess it's the problem with throwing so much money at a guy just starting out.
If I was a betting man I would put money on him starting a new project once gets home and effectively abandoning Rimworld.
Hopefully that's not the case and I invested wisely in this game but I don't have much hope.
Why? The game is pretty much finished and Tynan is a grown up adult and he gave us all he promised up to now and was always open about how he sees the further development of the game. The game is going to be out in 2016. For an indie game, a developing time of 2-3 years is totally okay.
Quote from: uglyduckling81 on January 03, 2016, 01:10:24 AM
If I had to guess I would say this game is doomed. It makes me sad because the quality of this development made me buy in after I had declared I would never support early access again.
Taking a 6 months hiatus mid development is a very bad sign. If he had taken a couple of weeks off like a normal person taking holidays I would see it as no problem.
I guess it's the problem with throwing so much money at a guy just starting out.
If I was a betting man I would put money on him starting a new project once gets home and effectively abandoning Rimworld.
Hopefully that's not the case and I invested wisely in this game but I don't have much hope.
Tynan has handed over the coding to ison, while Tynan steps away and creates more ideas. This is a good thing, but 6 months does make people who can not afford to take a 6 month break nervous. Large amounts of money over a short period of time does change a person's perspective on what they want to do... Rimworld is not dead yet.
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on January 03, 2016, 02:40:51 AM
Quote from: uglyduckling81 on January 03, 2016, 01:10:24 AM
If I had to guess I would say this game is doomed. It makes me sad because the quality of this development made me buy in after I had declared I would never support early access again.
Taking a 6 months hiatus mid development is a very bad sign. If he had taken a couple of weeks off like a normal person taking holidays I would see it as no problem.
I guess it's the problem with throwing so much money at a guy just starting out.
If I was a betting man I would put money on him starting a new project once gets home and effectively abandoning Rimworld.
Hopefully that's not the case and I invested wisely in this game but I don't have much hope.
this is exactly why I do not buy or support games until released anymore. Taking a 6 month break while a game is in alpha is inexcusable and unforgivable. This dev will never see a penny of my money in this or any other game he is involved with for life! I hope he starves. Devs like this hurt the entire gaming community. If you cannot finish, the DO NOT START!
Quote from: pooch on January 04, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on January 03, 2016, 02:40:51 AM
Quote from: uglyduckling81 on January 03, 2016, 01:10:24 AM
If I had to guess I would say this game is doomed. It makes me sad because the quality of this development made me buy in after I had declared I would never support early access again.
Taking a 6 months hiatus mid development is a very bad sign. If he had taken a couple of weeks off like a normal person taking holidays I would see it as no problem.
I guess it's the problem with throwing so much money at a guy just starting out.
If I was a betting man I would put money on him starting a new project once gets home and effectively abandoning Rimworld.
Hopefully that's not the case and I invested wisely in this game but I don't have much hope.
this is exactly why I do not buy or support games until released anymore. Taking a 6 month break while a game is in alpha is inexcusable and unforgivable. This dev will never see a penny of my money in this or any other game he is involved with for life! I hope he starves.
I would take that back if was you
Quote from: pooch on January 04, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on January 03, 2016, 02:40:51 AM
Quote from: uglyduckling81 on January 03, 2016, 01:10:24 AM
If I had to guess I would say this game is doomed. It makes me sad because the quality of this development made me buy in after I had declared I would never support early access again.
Taking a 6 months hiatus mid development is a very bad sign. If he had taken a couple of weeks off like a normal person taking holidays I would see it as no problem.
I guess it's the problem with throwing so much money at a guy just starting out.
If I was a betting man I would put money on him starting a new project once gets home and effectively abandoning Rimworld.
Hopefully that's not the case and I invested wisely in this game but I don't have much hope.
this is exactly why I do not buy or support games until released anymore. Taking a 6 month break while a game is in alpha is inexcusable and unforgivable. This dev will never see a penny of my money in this or any other game he is involved with for life! I hope he starves. Devs like this hurt the entire gaming community. If you cannot finish, the DO NOT START!
I'm not going to ban you despite wanting to, mostly because you're an idiot and just assume the worst to such an umpf degree that you make yourself look foolish. The game is healthy, the development team is great, the game will be finished and you'll have egg on your face :)
Honestly, this shit is almost predictable. Everytime a freaking post is made in General Discussion about either Tynan's break or Steam keys some people absolutely WILL get riled up and emotional. Seriously, what's going on? Poor Tynan.
"Captain! We're detecting another one!"
"Alright, what type is it?"
"It's a "Developer's ETA" sir!"
"Codename?"
""So when is Tynan returning?" sir!"
"Severity?"
"It's controlled so far si- no wait! We are detecting anomalies!"
Quote from: uglyduckling81 on January 03, 2016, 01:10:24 AM
If I had to guess I would say this game is doomed. It makes me sad because the quality of this development made me buy in after I had declared I would never support early access again.
Taking a 6 months hiatus mid development is a very bad sign. If he had taken a couple of weeks off like a normal person taking holidays I would see it as no problem.
I guess it's the problem with throwing so much money at a guy just starting out.
If I was a betting man I would put money on him starting a new project once gets home and effectively abandoning Rimworld.
Hopefully that's not the case and I invested wisely in this game but I don't have much hope.
"Damn it, send in troops to control the situation!"
"Troops sent sir! They are fighting back the negative anomaly!"
"Good, call me when it's gone."
"SIR, A NEW ANOMALY HAS BEEN DETECTED!"
"What? Threat level?"
"I-It's a... It's a... A55 Hole sir. Coming live onscreen... now."Quote from: pooch on January 04, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
this is exactly why I do not buy or support games until released anymore. Taking a 6 month break while a game is in alpha is inexcusable and unforgivable. This dev will never see a penny of my money in this or any other game he is involved with for life! I hope he starves. Devs like this hurt the entire gaming community. If you cannot finish, the DO NOT START!
"My god... SEND IN M.O.D. UNITS, NOW!""M.O.D.S reporting for duty. Ban-hammers ready."
"M.O.D. Leader, stand by, I repeat: stand by, M.O.D. Leader."
"Alright, the anomaly hasn't reacted yet. Let's just see how it goes. Hope to god that it does not require Operation: Thread Lock."inb4 more arguments and eventual thread lock
Well.
Players like that hurt the entire gaming community.
Quote from: Skissor on January 04, 2016, 08:21:32 PM
Honestly, this shit is almost predictable. Everytime a freaking post is made in General Discussion about either Tynan's break or Steam keys some people absolutely WILL get riled up and emotional. Seriously, what's going on? Poor Tynan.
Steam almost always degenerates into what we've seen earlier (Now on the OT board), regardless of the original question.
Just distance yourself from them after answering the question, it gets ugly quick.
Quote from: A Friend on January 04, 2016, 10:18:25 PM
"Hope to god that it does not require Operation: Thread Lock."[/i]
So long as it doesn't ascend to Operation: Expunge thread, Keeping examples around to redirect to the inevitable return of this question is a good thing.
Whether people agree with it or not, the detractors have a point (I'll freely admit I'm one of 'em). Have I enjoyed the game I paid to help make? Sure.
Is taking a massive vacation mid-development normal, or generally acceptable? Nope. Is it Tynan's prerogative? Definitely, that's the very definition of the word after all.
Having said that, the longer he is out and releases are paused, the more the returns will be diminished, and thus diminishing incentive to return/re-invest in the same capacity/etc.
You can bet fewer people are buying the game when active development is paused, thus there is less money coming in, and less incentive to hit additional development really hard. Momentum is difficult to build, and it doesn't just return because you want it to. For anybody with real world experience, this carries across many fields, and is an undeniable fact.
Well said porcupine.
Coen, do you mean that Steam and Tynan returning discussions are being designated Godwin-level (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) on this forum?
Quote from: porcupine on January 05, 2016, 06:44:24 PM
Valid points. Proper discussion! HUZZAH.
Yeah, I myself thought that "6 Months" was a bit too much for a vacation. But I was never really bothered all to much by it unlike the usual detractors and I have a bunch of other games to keep me busy while I wait for the countdown.
And with the amount of scams and undelivered crap many Early Access games provide. Of course people have the right to worry and express it, especially if the game clearly has incredible potential like Rimworld. Especially those who only bought the game recently. But personally, I haven't supported that many EA games so I'm not as jaded and I still have hope for this one.
But things like this are just wrong:
Quote from: pooch on January 04, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
this is exactly why I do not buy or support games until released anymore. Taking a 6 month break while a game is in alpha is inexcusable and unforgivable. This dev will never see a penny of my money in this or any other game he is involved with for life! I hope he starves. Devs like this hurt the entire gaming community. If you cannot finish, the DO NOT START!
Like granny said, if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.
Well, someone's granny said that, not mine.
my granny always said say what you mean, and mean what you say. Don't hold back, be honest.
Ah. Well, that reminds me of Hofstede and his cultural dimensions thing.
We're getting off topic, but I'm not sure if it's a good thing or not. If a topic goes sour, is derailing considered bad?
Quote from: StorymasterQ on January 05, 2016, 08:11:21 PM
Coen, do you mean that Steam and Tynan returning discussions are being designated Godwin-level (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) on this forum?
It would seem so except I was thinking less comparing someone here to Nazism and more so along the lines of an endless cycle that shall repeat itself until a satisfactory outcome is observed.
Atleast after this 6 month break the Tynan returning discussions will cease to exist, (until someone necros them) then all we'll be left with is the Steam one.
speaking of Godwins law... I wonder if the 'cheapest ideas' thread of the count to 9000 thread have invoked it yet?
Edit : The count to 9000 thread has invoked Godwins law, Skissor played a hand in it, the Cheapest ideas thread has apparently not reached a sufficient density as of yet.
Quote from: A Friend on January 05, 2016, 08:39:01 PM
And with the amount of scams and undelivered crap many Early Access games provide. Of course people have the right to worry and express it, especially if the game clearly has incredible potential like Rimworld. Especially those who only bought the game recently. But personally, I haven't supported that many EA games so I'm not as jaded and I still have hope for this one.
Unfortunately due to a few rather public early access kerfuffles, there has been serious doubt placed on the indie crowd and whether they can finish to a satisfactory standard what they had promised in days or months past.
This has the effect of harming potential indies that were considering putting their ideas out there and even moreso those that were already in the middle of a project, harming both their sales and support meanwhile increasing hostilities towards people who have done nothing wrong as of yet, perfect example being Pooch.
Have faith, Just because a small few of these independant developers have gone MIA only to never return does not mean the rest of them will.
He'll be back by Wrestlemania. Hell, maybe he is secretly training for a surprise debut at it, or a surprise entrant in the Royal Rumble. You'll just have to wait and see ;)
Quote from: porcupine on January 05, 2016, 06:44:24 PM
Is taking a massive vacation mid-development normal, or generally acceptable? Nope. Is it Tynan's prerogative? Definitely, that's the very definition of the word after all.
I mean, the thing is, Tynan said again and again that this game is basically done. So it's not really a mid-development abandonment. The game is finished as you are buying it now, and Tynan will only return to give it the Alpha 13 update and then release it on Steam as a finished game.
It will happen in the next months, and we all know that after that RimWorld is finished. It's not something that is left hanging in the future. We were already given the reassuring promise.
Quote from: Skissor on January 06, 2016, 06:20:24 AM
Quote from: porcupine on January 05, 2016, 06:44:24 PM
Is taking a massive vacation mid-development normal, or generally acceptable? Nope. Is it Tynan's prerogative? Definitely, that's the very definition of the word after all.
I mean, the thing is, Tynan said again and again that this game is basically done, but most people don't want this to be true. So it's not really a mid-development abandonment. The game is finished as you are buying it now, and Tynan will only return to give it the Alpha 13 upgrade and then release it on Steam as a finished game. It will happen in the next months and we all now that after that this game is finished. It's not something that is left hanging in the future. We were already given the reassuring promise.
But muh better faction interactions! noooooooooooooooo
In a more serious note. I'm going to argue against the "it's finished" part. I feel that the "Factions" needs to be more fleshed out. Right now it's just kind of there so you could know that the group of pirates that you're fighting are called the "Chicken Men".
Every other part of the game does not feel lacking or there's something noticeably missing. But every time I look at that Factions tab, I feel like it's an empty placeholder for something. Factions and interactions with them seems like an important feature for a game like this. But there's barely any aside from raids, useless visitors, etc. For a "story generator", having varying interactions with your game world and environment seems like something essential and not something that you can add later to pad the game up like more events and raid types.
I can't personally agree with calling the game "finished" with that thing staying blank like that. But well that's just my personal opinion. One that can easily be ignored, discarded and argued against.
Edit: Well it can be argued that DF, an inspiration for Rimworld also has a pretty simple faction system (atleast based on what I've encountered so far in the vanilla game mode). With only a few distinct factions and interactions pretty much just limited to trade and raids. But the sheer amount of chaos and fun that can result in your fortress alone
without even interacting with the outside world dwarfs
heh the dull nature of the factions in that game. (Did I use a straw man? Huh.)
Oh noes I'm going off topic!
Well I also didn't reveal my opinion on whether I think this game is "finished". ;)
But that's sadly what Tynan said. :(
Quote from: Tynan6 months may seem like a long time but it'll be like 15% of the game's dev time by the end of it. Not a big deal in the grand scheme. Moreover the game has more content than was ever promised. The marketing page doesn't even mention animal taming/training at all. So I'm comfortable with what we're offering now.
Honestly, both sides valid. The detractors are missing the mark though. It's not "inexcusable" to take a break during development; he doesn't report to us in any meaningful way. But it still feels really dangerous. I've worked on large-scale projects before... amateur video game design, novels, collaborative online efforts with other people. Dropping completely out of that for six months is psychologically deadly. Restarting work after so long of having your mind on other things is an enormous mental hurdle to overcome. I did my best work when I resisted the temptation to take long breaks, countering burnout by focusing the energy in different parts of the same project as opposed to other things entirely.
I put tons of hours into the game as is so I won't be super disappointed if this is all I gets. But there will still be that twinge of sadness that I couldn't see anything else be added, not to mention *another* reason to avoid early access before release.
The game being called finished does not mean there will never be another update or patch, it just means it is a complete game. There are plenty games out there that were sold as completed only to get more content afterwards.
It could also be that Tynan drops this project and starts something else next.
Either way, it takes some of the now traditional 'alpha's must update every 3 days!!1!one!' pressure off of the dev team.
I think what I mean to say with "finished" is that Tynan already met all the goals he ever promised for RimWorld and he can easily afford a break. Whether Tynan considers a13 to be the last update was never confirmed.
Oh, it's not that I think that there won't be another update or something. I'm pretty positive that Tynan will continue adding content to Rimworld.
It's probably just with the word "Finished". I just don't think that this and that feature should be considered "Optional Content".
Considering Tynan DID state at some place that while he was on his vacation that the work WAS continuing behind the scenes, I will wager there WILL be an update when or shortly after his return. His return is certain. This is not someone being hopeful, this is someone looking at a person's past behavior in doing what he says and saying what he means. Tynan said he was returning and wasn't done with Rimworld so that means Tynan IS returning and Tynan IS continuing work on Rimworld. Even working on it DURING his vacation. Just as many people I know still tend to do some work while on a vacation. (Considering he DID say he was doing SOME work while the majority was being done by another helping on the development.)
As for being finished, he stated very clearly, it is finished as in all the promised goals are met. Is it finished in HIS eyes? No in that he wants to flesh out the factions, add polish to many of the components, and add something else that I admittedly cannot remember and can't find the post... Will it ever be 'finished' in his eyes? Probably not when you consider most developers always will see something that can be or should be added or can be polished better. This is where he has to become his own project manager and make a decision that 'it is done'. Will he add more to it after Steam release? I personally think he will, considering how much he loves Rimworld.
It took a long time before I bought on to Rimworld, waiting for the Steam release. Why did it take so long? I was burned by one of the burned out indie developers who kept bending to the will of the mob in an effort to make them happy. That being said, it was Tynan's ability to deliver what HE promised and not bending to the will of the mob that got my attention. He would listen to the community, look at the game he was developing and then deciding if it would fit in with the goals he sat up or would interfere. Only after that would he add things in that the masses wanted or suggested. It took every suggestion into consideration, which in my opinion, was remarkable. Tynan was also VERY active in the forum community. This was something I've only seen with one other developer so I kept watching. Finally, after I was convinced by his actions that even though a Steam release was not out, the game was well worth buying into and was convinced it would be finished though not as quickly as I had hoped. Tynan, in my opinion, has proven himself good to his word. He said he would return once his 6 month time out from the board and obsessive development was done. He said that development was still going on while he was away from the board, I believe this is true as he has always been true to all he said in the past.
In its current state, I play the game all the time. Why? Because it has the feel of a finished game and even feels better developed than most commercial projects. I play the game all the time. Why? Because it is fun and never the same game twice. I play the game all the time. Why? Because I still have high hopes for an Android Port of the game so I can play it even MORE all of the time! :P (Ok, that last one is a stretch...)
Well said falcongrey. Here, have a cookie! 8)
(http://emoji.fileformat.info/gemoji/cookie.png)
Yes Tynan stated that in his mind he has met all the goals he started out to meet... but those goals on the greenlight are not specific, but very general, so of course he can claim he has met the goals he set. And once a person has reached the goals they have set, they start looking else where for new goals...
A 6 month break, means he is looking for something new, and he can afford it with the income he has generated from rimworld over the past 3 years.
Just looking at Mantis, there are over 50 bugs that have been resolved, that I would LOVE to see an update to the public of... but no we have to wait until the KING Tynan is back... Which means he can't let go of his pet project. He has stated it is very hard to hire people he trusts...
So for me, strike one claiming the game is done...when in reality it is far from a finished game. Better than most alphas, but not a polished complete version 1.0. Factions are far from finished. Bugs with the added rushed animals.
strike two, taking a 6 month break... very difficult to get back to work on a project after that long, with the passion and intensity required to move it forward. The code is getting more complex, and harder to isolate bugs. And changes have more unintended results. There is NOTHING tricky about testing, although Tynan thinks there is.
Strike three; no definitive return date. He had a definitive leave date... Just general 6 months, early next year (stated in his blog post) What is early?
I play rimworld, exclusively modded now, as the vanilla game is severely lacking content.
Indie games have a very bad track record... and Tynan has went down that same track, with the 6 month break... And his inability to let his pet project grow without him.
For anybody who argues that Rimworld is "finished", I urge you to go play Prison Architect (yes, it's on Steam if you've never heard of it before).
Same art style/artists, similar overall game style, I believe it's the same engine, and the same price bracket, etc.
Compare the two side by side, polish, complexity, etc., and honestly, try to argue that Rimworld is on the same level.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying Rimworld is not a fantastic game, with a lot of *potential* (a word we keep seeing used here), but the reason everybody keeps saying *potential* is because it has not been fully realized in any regard. The polish level, development level, and commitment level between the two projects are night and day.
Whilst that's sort of fair to compare the two as they are both management of a sort and carry similar looks (i believe it was stated tynan borrowed their style with their blessing as he wasn't an artist himself, and the player base liked it he decided not to change the style)
It's not fair in the sense that ludeon studios is really just tynan, and in the last year or so, ison, with one or two people helping out (plus the rather awesome composer for the soundtrack) and is its first commercial game, where as PA is Introversion software's 6th game release, and they have a bigger team.
Do *I* feel its "complete"? Well that's not a fair question, because I could list you a million and one things I would "love" to see in this game, heck, since I backed on kickstarter, I have suggested loads, some even with some positive feedback from tynan, even if he chose not to take inspiration from my ideas, after all, I know for a fact I was not the first to suggest some, and that's ok :) so of course I feel *more* could be done, but I don't feel it fair to say it *should* be done.
As Ty has said many times before, he is not beholden to us on any level beyond good will. Do I think that means he should get a lofty status and we be thankful for any little thing prouduced, no, but we as consumers have got what we paid for, and time and again, here, and in any other early access "pay for what it is now, not what it could be".
I for one would prefer tynan leave it as it is with his creative merit intact, than to give in to all the loudest whiners here and, eventually, on steam that this game needs this, this game needs that, and it just collapses in on its self under useless features from an unenthused dev.
My personal preference would be that Ty releases as he wants it released, update it when he likes, but hires a sort of "guardian" or group of smaller devs or committed modders to keep adding.
As the terminology used from another EA that I use to be active in the forums for, ksp, the game may not be "scope complete", as in all features desired, and more, are in, at the very least, as placeholder, but not "feature complete" meaning it has some more fleshing out to do, and bug fixing and balancing.
We are coming to the end of the dev cycle, where we will have diminished returns, less new visible features, and more tweaks and fixes.
I personally applaud ty on what he has achieved as his first official indie game, especially seeing how far it came from the kickstarter, and I backed that immediately, at the get my own character In the game tier, based solely on how much I wanted that pre-alpha right then and there. No regrets, loving every minute.
We will see ty again, in full gear, not to mention, he's not disappeared, he still posts on the forum, and he is still doing some work. And if anything, this 6 months of player time is good for seeing what needs fixing, balancing and adding more than the 2week/1 month approach where the turn around times on changes were so short you couldn't see the full force of what each change did to the game as a whole.
Anyway, just my opinion, I look forward to the updates to this game, and future ludeon projects
Well stated JonoRig.
While you can't argue against a person's emotions, arguing against an apple compared to an orange has merit. While I love Prison Architect, it is a larger team from a more experienced development company.
If you want the details:
Game was announced October 2011 and crowd funded on September 25, 2012 with updates scheduled every three to four weeks, officially released October 6, 2015. I suspect that in 2011 it started development. The Game was developed by British video game studio Introversion Software with a team of initially 3. The game was developed under the fear of they were ACTUALLY going to jail for trading insolventy. For those not knowing what that is, it is where you trade stock for your company while having the knowledge your company was NOT going to survive. http://www.pcgamer.com/prison-architect-how-introversion-avoided-jail-by-embracing-their-hardest-project-yet/ (http://www.pcgamer.com/prison-architect-how-introversion-avoided-jail-by-embracing-their-hardest-project-yet/) If you want to read about that last statement. Under this fear, they came up with this game to make a last ditch effort to pay the bills and to avoid getting sued and put in jail for illegal trading. Tynan isn't under any kind of fear to develop Rimworld. Rimworld is his baby, his child. Tynan is making this game not to keep himself out of prison, but out of his love of the idea and dream of what this game will be when development is completed.
That being said, Prison Architect has 1 extra year of development time under the blankets and three times the initial development team. There was a lot of incentive initially to release a game and gain FAST cash to avoid real prison. Once it was a hit, they slowed down and hired more help to make the game even better. I remember the INITIAL Prison Architect as I was with it from early Alpha release. It was extremely basic and not very entertaining after a short period of game play repeat playability was low in the fact that the only differences was the way you built the prison. You could actually build it the same way every time and the game would turn out the same every time. Yes NOW it is a remarkable game. But then, they grossed over $4,031,925 (£2,679,730) in early 2013, not even a YEAR after Alpha release and by the end of 2013 over $9,000,000 (yes over 9 million US Dollars). This is now 2016, if in under 1 year they made $9 million through Steam release, imagine how much they made now. Tynan hasn't made anywhere NEAR that much yet, but then, unlike Introversion Software he hasn't released to Steam in Alpha yet because he wants to release THERE in a finished, polish state better than where it is now. Rimworld doesn't get the publicity that Prison Architect gets by any means. Rimworld's publicity is merely WORD OF MOUTH.
Now, that is a FAIR comparison of Prison Architect to Rimworld. Not so similar in developmental situations now is it. This game is far better than expected, for more complete than expected, and Tynan is far more patient with US than expected considering the comparisons.
It is most certainly NOT finished in Tynan's mind. It is only finished in that he said he met all the goals from the initial crowd funding. This is why he took his time off. He has spent over 2 years, non-stop (no vacations / holidays off) developing this game. When we hit June, I will say he has spent 3 years. For a solo developer building a game of this complexity for his FIRST release, this game is amazing. I can only imagine what his next release will be like years from now after he pulls in money from a Steam release, hires a team to work on the next release, then spends another 2 or 3 years with a team putting the next game together. Can he afford to take time off finally now that he has met his legal requirements of the Kickstarter promises? Yes, and it is his right and prerogative. If you take the accumulated time off that he has not 'used' from the on-start of this project, 6 months off is no longer very long but about right. Three months is a LOT of time off for someone in the United States, as we are only use to getting at most a week or two off a year of PAID vacations... but in other countries, Three months is a lot but not unheard of per year though the average is over 1 month (30 days) of paid vacation. Google this if you want to see that I have already done the research and numbers.
Tynan earned this time off over the last two and a half years, he needs this time off, and has already proven he isn't simply sipping sweet tea on some sunny beach laughing at us for funding his paradise. He is still actively working in the background on Rimworld, just not as actively as he was doing earlier. He has another doing the active part and checking in with Tynan to make sure it is on track and what Tynan wants done. So you may say he is on partial vacation, just not keeping as alive in the forums as he normally is, developing this game still for us. Something he doesn't have to do while taking time off but wants to do.
If you want to verify all I have stated, Google it. You will find a lot out there in the Wiki alone on Prison Architect including the numbers. I gave you ONE of many sources. The rest, you can do the leg work on as I did unless you are afraid to find it and to extend a little earned trust to Tynan.
Grey
Thanks for the clarification falcon.
I honestly don't understand all of the Steam rage. Gamers should be used to waiting years for an anticipated game to be released.
Quote from: Justin C on January 07, 2016, 09:08:50 PM
I honestly don't understand all of the Steam rage. Gamers should be used to waiting years for an anticipated game to be released.
Just like me with Dark Cloud 3. I've been waiting years for it to be finally announced and released, I can wait a little while longer for the next update.
For a game of this complexity as someone said and as well made as it already is, it would really be a shame if the endgame/endless game wasn't given enough attention.
All I care about is that the final product kicks as much ass as it possibly can. Waiting is honestly no big deal.
Quote from: Noobshock on January 08, 2016, 08:59:40 PM
For a game of this complexity as someone said and as well made as it already is, it would really be a shame if the endgame/endless game wasn't given enough attention.
All I care about is that the final product kicks as much ass as it possibly can. Waiting is honestly no big deal.
I second this statement.
I keep reading how the game is "finished" when the things promised on the Kickstarter HAVE NOT been met. Scroll down to the "proposed modules section (via this link = https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tynansylvester/rimworld/description)
1) Beliefs and Religion; Not added yet
2) Archaelogy; Not added yet (what is there is extremely bare bones if you can even call it that)
3) Historical Characters; Not added yet
4) Relationships; Not added yet (I looked through the XMLs and it claims that people have relationships, but have run large games and never saw it happen once)
5) Moddability; A LOT of useful code is still hardcoded and inaccessible (ie controlling how raids work precisely or controlling the XP given by every kind of activity or being able to make your own skills, etc)
How can Tynan say it is basically finished when major components suggested in the Kickstarter Campaign haven't been completed yet? Also, a game doesn't go from Alpha to Finished Product; When will the beta be?
I'm not trying to incite things here, but it really aggravates me that people keeping saying its done, when features suggested in the campaign haven't been completed yet and would GREATLY add to the game if they were added. Thoughts?
Relationships are gonna be part of A13 when Tynan gets back.
http://ludeon.com/blog/
Which is pretty hype-generating.
Quote from: palandus on January 09, 2016, 02:13:17 AM
I keep reading how the game is "finished" when the things promised on the Kickstarter HAVE NOT been met. Scroll down to the "proposed modules section (via this link = https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tynansylvester/rimworld/description)
1) Beliefs and Religion; Not added yet
2) Archaelogy; Not added yet (what is there is extremely bare bones if you can even call it that)
3) Historical Characters; Not added yet
4) Relationships; Not added yet (I looked through the XMLs and it claims that people have relationships, but have run large games and never saw it happen once)
5) Moddability; A LOT of useful code is still hardcoded and inaccessible (ie controlling how raids work precisely or controlling the XP given by every kind of activity or being able to make your own skills, etc)
How can Tynan say it is basically finished when major components suggested in the Kickstarter Campaign haven't been completed yet? Also, a game doesn't go from Alpha to Finished Product; When will the beta be?
I'm not trying to incite things here, but it really aggravates me that people keeping saying its done, when features suggested in the campaign haven't been completed yet and would GREATLY add to the game if they were added. Thoughts?
Because those were suggestions. Tynan clarified this again and again and again. The suggestions were made years ago and were not just completely changed an reshaped, Tynan also very obviously implemented other things into the game that were never promised.
In terms of the scale of the game and the direction Tynan wanted it to go, the game has what it promised.
Could you point me to where he clarified this, as I never recall him making a blog post concerning this, nor an update video either, and as I've tried to be diligent and keep up with these, I was quite surprised when he announced several months ago that it was "finished"... as if that idea came out of the blue, when it doesn't feel finished.
Yes, you are right they are suggestions, but often if a feature is listed in a Kickstarter campaign, you expect it to be part of the finished game. Look at other kickstarters where they offered a possible feature for their game and failed to deliver on it. People were justifiably angry about it. Take Elite Dangerous. They, during their kickstarter said it would have an offline mode, but the game is online only (unless they patched it; haven't follow ED in a while so not sure on that). Or take Godus's Multiplayer mode; it still aint there. All I'm trying to say is that if you are going to post a feature on a kickstarter, and then decide later on to NOT do it, an official statement somewhere that is extremely visible is needed... not some random post on the forums here where you have to dig to find it.
So, could you refer me to the posts where he changed his mind on these features?
It's a good question. The only videos he ever did were the Kickstarter videos and then the gameplay videos for the new Alphas.
I can only point you to the last time Tynan commented on this:
Quote from: Tynan on September 28, 2015, 11:54:56 AM
However Piotr is working fulltime on the game [.....]. If he works all the way through, the next release may have quite a bit of new stuff in it indeed. Possibly 2x or more the usual man hours in an alpha (though much of it may be non-obvious refactoring work.)
[.....] Moreover the game has more content than was ever promised. The marketing page doesn't even mention animal taming/training at all. So I'm comfortable with what we're offering now.
If you wade through his older posts you'll find more. But the general opinion that he holds is that, whether the suggestions on the KS were met, he met many other goals that he never promised. The game got as "big" as it was marketed in the Kickstarter.
And don't forget that we are currently talking about Alpha 12, whereas Alpha 13 is going to be a BIG update if Tynan is not exaggerating. We don't know what the next update will exactly bring. We also don't know how much work Tynan will put into the game after it is released on Steam this summer.
I agree that it's hard to even follow this because there are no "general" update videos so people can stay up to date.
So what Skissor is saying is that Tynan marketed rimworld on kickstarter, which are goals the game needs to meet... then Tynan changed his mind, but did not inform the public as to what those goals are... Deception, outright lie, lie by omission, take your pick.
Then Tynan stated that in his MIND all goals from the kickstarter are met, and that the game is finished, done in his mind...
It is NOT about what he thinks he has done, it is about what he marketed, what he promoted. That he has not met.
Marketing is a serious business, and comes with many pitfalls, and legal consequences.
He never marketed them as definitive goals, only potential suggestions to get people's ideas, I quote:
"RimWorld's development is arranged into "modules". The plan is to work until one module is finished, release it, and then choose the next based on what people want. This way, the game will grow organically according to the feedback of the community, while remaining playable at all times.
As a Kickstarter backer, you'll be one of the voices with the most influence over which direction we take the game. Perhaps you'll like some of the modules I'm interested in below. And if you've got an idea for another, please let us know.
Note that this list of modules isn't a roadmap or a plan. These may not all ever be finished. They're options I'm offering to the community. Which way should we take the game after the Kickstarter?
Proposed Modules"
Okay fair enough. It does say that some May Not ever get finished.
The only concern I have is that he is saying that the game is as big as he wanted it to be. But that is a vague statement. Nowhere has he posted a progress meter of "I want to achieve X number of modules for the game to be completed" or a "this is a % progress to the final release" or "these are the essential modules that I feel are needed in the game to make it complete"... like most developers do. Instead, one day out of the blue he says that its basically finished. Yes there are some modules that weren't originally suggested, but at the same time, I recall people complaining vigourously over a year ago that the starship module was bare bones and yet he never changed or added to that module.
So my beef is, how much does he actually change his development based on our feedback? If the whole kickstarter was about making the game the community wanted, how many of the new modules were actually suggested by the community OR how many of those modules listed on the kickstarter were discussed in length by the community that AREN'T in the game that convinced Tynan that they were unwanted and thus weren't essential to making it into the game?
I keep seeing that this is Tynan's baby, which is true. But, that means it isn't the community's baby and thus he doesn't HAVE to listen to us nor implement the things we want while implementing only the things he wants and thus calling it finished because its his baby, even though the community isn't ready to call it finished. How much "power" do backers really have in shaping the game's development? Thoughts?
I can understand his desire to get away to avoid burnout. As I recently ran into a bout of near burnout I can understand why he would like to get away before burning out. If he had burnt out, his "break" away from the game would be much longer. Take Josh Parnell's Limit Theory, another Kickstarter Backed project. Josh was providing daily updates and major monthly video updates for every month in 2014. However, in 2015, Feb I think, he burnt himself out. For three months he posted nothing on the forums and everyone thought he was either dead or ran away with the money. After those 3 months, he came back briefly to post what happened. However, since then, he has come back from time to time with posts, but NO UPDATEs. Its been over 10 months since he started his recovery from burnout and he hasn't posted a major monthly update or even gone back to daily updates. So... the point I'm making is that 6 months isn't such a long time to wait for an update.
The only thing is that he chose to do it when "he felt" that the game was finished, but the community feels like there are still things that need doing and thus we feel that he is abandoning the game during development which isn't a good sign.
It never ceases to surprise me how you always have this two or three individuals who can't seem to accept or understand certain words or statements. They seem to gloss over them to read and hear only what they want to see and instantly focus on the 'worst possible situation' that usually is never the case. They then begin to make comparisons that are totally not comparable and often outrageous then can't seem to understand when people object and defend what they are attacking and call those people defending it various names in the end. Granted you do get a few 'attackers' who don't get to the name calling part however no matter how much proof the defenders throw into the argument something new is then found to attack or the proof is ignored.
Take the word 'Proposed' for example. It is a verb that means "put forward (an idea or plan) for consideration or discussion by others." By definition it is something intended to be used as a consideration or a discussion point. How often I see when someone is 'proposing' an idea it is then held to them in recent times as 'they promised this'. I then start hearing "How dare they promise this and not deliver!" kind of statements and the persons pointing back to the initial description showing the promises and what was 'proposed' and even STATED 'may not be included' statements. Often those throwing the fits will claim those lines were recently added and still go on about 'proposed' ideas or other areas of attack. A good example of 'other areas' is attacking when a person changes the shift of the development to a new area and declares the area he or she is working as 'finished' by meeting the promised requirements. While often 'promised requirements' is a broad area, there are always those individuals who will attack the 'finished' statement as 'this is far from finished'. At what point does a project get finished? Is it up to the individuals making suggestions and what not into the project or the project manager who at some point has to say 'ok, enough suggestions now. We have met the criteria goals and are done.' While there may still be other areas that need work, the person never said they were done working on the overall project. They were simply stating that one area is 'finished' as they then take a break usually, to refocus their creative energies and resources, and then come back to begin the work on the new area. Kind of like building a house. The frame work is in place, the outer walls of the house are up, the wires are in the house and lights are on, the pluming is working... is the house finished? Not by a long shot but the builder often says 'the house is built' at this point and then begins to change focus on painting the place then putting in the floor, the kitchen counters, the sinks, the toilet and shower. While you often don't see a person building a house walking away for a few months, it sometimes will happen. A good example is winter has sat in. Now the good builder takes time off until the snow is done and the weather has returned to warmer, dryer conditions to resume building. A bad builder will track in the snow and moisture and what not which in years down the road causes problems for the house that was just built. It may not seem like much at the time it was done but it's kind of like a surgeon in an operating room not washing his hands before putting them inside someone. Yes, there is the possibility that nothing bad will come from it. However an infection will likely fester and develop. Same with that house, moisture gets trapped under a wood floor or behind the pain put on a wall. Perfect for mold to begin to slowly grow in a nice hidden area and not show up for a few years down the road.
While this 'small rant' if you want to call this has no one particular person in mind, I'm sure I'm going to get flamed by someone and accused of singling them out because they will take it personally even though I'm simply listing off the usual 'attacks' that happen in general of all the projects, be it computer games, houses built, or what not, that I've watched attacked by people. Often they (the project manager) have to at some point declare 'the promises are finished', but the over all project is not done. Often the project manager will say 'time for some rest so we can come back when the weather clears and our focus is strong' even if everyone is still capable of continuing the work. Often those few individuals come crawling out from somewhere to make outrageous comparisons with other unrelated projects that in their mind are perfect examples without actually digging into what they are comparing against which often is a very poor example of comparisons. While they often look similar on the outside, usually what went on and goes on unseen is very very different.
While it would be nice if all things under development can add more and more and more to them, at some point someone in charge has to say 'enough suggestions on this because we are finished'. In the specifics of Rimworld, I am glad Tynan was very clear that development was not over on his game. In the way of program development from my past experience, I have only taken this as 'we have reached the end of Alpha development'. For those lacking experience in this, once Alpha development is done it then goes on to Beta development where the skeleton of a program is now fleshed out and features which are very basic often are focused on until they reach a solid and whole feeling. Minor bugs and annoyances are focused on and corrected. Beta stages, just like Alpha stages, very in length. Often they are shorter than an Alpha stage because all the hard work has already been done. The best programs and games often take several months off between Alpha and Beta if they can afford it AND are not under the pressure of a deadline. Usually, in the case of a game developer, they have often made some sort of deadline for themselves which often turn into a hangman's noose because when they reach the deadline they find they have only made it a fraction into the beta stage because of many unforeseen problems with newly added features.
When Tynan returns in a couple months, I'm really looking forward to seeing the new update he has been working on while 'on vacation'. I'm also looking forward to the direction development of Rimworld is about to take.
Grey
p.s. Sorry for the LONG winded rant. We all need to get them out sometimes so long as they remain non-derogatory, fairly focused, on topic, and not disruptive.
Very good points.
The only gripe is that in all other cases of project development, there is a plan, or in the very least a progress "meter" of how much is left for a complete product. Tynan has never shared his "personal" plan for the game, nor has he stated how much the game has progressed to a finished state and how he defines a finished state. Most other projects have specific metrics for explaining how they define it as a finished state. Tynan hasn't explained how he defines the game as finished, just that he has stated it is finished. In the case of a house builder, they feel the house is finished when according to their plan that the plan says it is finished if it has X, Y, and Z, completed and until those are completed the house isn't finished.
I'd just like to understand from Tynan's perspective why he feels the game is finished, and if he feels it is finished why continue development at all? Unless he is continuing development for an expansion, it doesn't make logical sense to call the game finished. Continued development implies that it isn't actually finished. Its like a house builder building a house, and then saying it is finished... and then later deciding to rip out the roof and add another floor to it.
I'm not trying to be inciteful... I just want to understand his reasoning. His style of development is different than other development performed by video games and has stated before that he doesn't have a specific plan and prefers organic development. The issue is that with organic development there is NEVER a finished state; it is in perpetual development forever. That is why you need a plan; you need a clear end goal. I'm just curious what Tynan's End Goal was for a game that technically has no End Goal, and what caused him to reach this End Goal.
Quote from: palandus on January 09, 2016, 07:25:01 PM
Very good points.
Thank you. And sorry in advance, this reply is going to get REALLY wordy.
Quote from: palandus on January 09, 2016, 07:25:01 PM
The only gripe is that in all other cases of project development, there is a plan, or in the very least a progress "meter" of how much is left for a complete product. Tynan has never shared his "personal" plan for the game, nor has he stated how much the game has progressed to a finished state and how he defines a finished state. Most other projects have specific metrics for explaining how they define it as a finished state. Tynan hasn't explained how he defines the game as finished, just that he has stated it is finished. In the case of a house builder, they feel the house is finished when according to their plan that the plan says it is finished if it has X, Y, and Z, completed and until those are completed the house isn't finished.
To be honest, Tynan doesn't have to share anything beyond what was given in the update blog in the way of where the game is currently at and so on. He has done a very very good job of this and keeping active with what he is doing and working on between this blog and interactions within the forums with his customers. As for 'all other cases of project development'... Gonna stop you right there. Yes, all GOOD project developments have a sort of 'blue print' of where, what, when, and how to some degree. Is it something public? Unless this is a government funded public project or something done by a charity the answer to that is no it is not public UNLESS the project manager wishes to make it public. Now, does Tynan have some sort of plan that he is following? I think I can safely answer yes to this one. So why hasn't he shared this? Well, to be honest, for one I have never asked him to share it and I don't recall ANYONE asking to publicly share it or to give at the LEAST some sort of 'road map' to the plan he is following. I typically never see any sort of 'meters' on computer program development projects, and frankly I've beta tested quite a few over the years. I often see meters only in the case of fund raising projects and charity event type stuff where they are trying to reach a specific goal for a specific reason so I can understand where the idea of 'meters' come in to thought.
Perhaps, if someone were to politely ask Tynan if he could share some sort of general road map, as I am certain he won't be specific for good reasons, he would likely post a general road map. We do have that sort of thing if we want to dig through all the various past posts he has been actively involved within. And the reason why I am certain he won't be specific is for a very good reason which I will explain. You have a basic idea in mind for a game, you write out a road map for yourself and are quite detailed. Going along the road map you start hitting bumps, twists, and turns on the road that were never expected or foreseen. You then alter the road map to accommodate the bumps, twists, and turns. This changes the original road map but the desired destination is still there. In the way of 'bumps, twists, and turns' that Rimworld can run into is quite obvious. He is making the game in sections or as he called them 'modules'. This is VERY smart in the way of a plan or road map because if one of these modules proves to be very challenging, the game still is playable as he sits this 'module' off to the side for later development while he still works on the core modules. You probably can tell I'm use to making 'road maps' for projects. In the past I use to be a very active programmer. Was offered jobs coming out of high school, one as much as $75k (this was in 1990 so now you know my age). I use to own my own computer company that specialized in network security and P.O.S. development / implementation. Why am I telling all of this and what is my point? The point is this; even when I use to set up store point of sales systems or computer network security, I didn't show the details of my plan to my clients. I showed them a generalized plan of what I saw would cover their needs. Why didn't I go into details? Simple, when in the process of deployment (or development) situations change. Sometimes VERY drastically where a good part of the original map ends up being scrapped for a new, revised one that still reaches the SAME destination and goals but from a different direction. If I had shared all the details with my clients, they would become confused or even frustrated to the point of scrapping the whole idea or worse getting someone else to do the same thing I was doing setting the client back in time, money, and shattered nerves. With programming there are so many possible 'could go wrong' situations, there is not sat in stone map that Tynan can share. No one has ever asked from, from my memory, for any generalized map beyond what he has already provided through the kick starter plan or through his development blog or through the forums. These road maps, from experience, only lead to confusion and frustrations worse than we have right now while he is off resting and programming at a snail pace. I'm actually sure if we all wanted to parse through the forums we could create a form of general map to what Tynan has planned and then fully understand why he says 'finished' in a general word. Remember, he didn't say the game was finished. Tynan has never said that and even emphasized that the game was far from done. In his mind this part of HIS map is finished. He has completed all the 'promised' parts of the Kickstarter program and can now focus on the details and harder 'modules' that he wants to place into the game as well as parts we the 'clients' and Rimworld Family want to see in the game. It has only been after he called 'finished' that a few people suddenly screamed WAIT! I personally think he chose a VERY poor word for what he means. I think he should have stated "This part of the game development is now done and I'm going to take a 6 month break before I start on the next set of goals and construction." In basic, he should have said something like "Alpha Development is done. When I get back from 6 months off and taking care of personal things I will begin with Beta Development. In the mean time, I will from time to time poke my head into the forums. I have hired on a second programmer to begin working on the game under my direction while I'm on break." Which is basically what has happened. If he feels it is out of Alpha I will note I am not sure. It is simply, this PART of the game development is done. We have a walking skeleton that is poking us in the butt with a sword. Now he has to put meat on the skeleton. :P
I hope this helped shine a little light on why there isn't some 'posted road map' to the game development currently. I'm sure if someone asked nicely, when he pokes his head back into the forums again he may actually reply with a generalized one or about getting something for us to glance at and have an idea what more Tynan's planning to do with the development of the game. I'm also sure he plans on adding to the game once it goes to full release and 'done' stage.
Quote from: palandus on January 09, 2016, 07:25:01 PM
I'd just like to understand from Tynan's perspective why he feels the game is finished, and if he feels it is finished why continue development at all? Unless he is continuing development for an expansion, it doesn't make logical sense to call the game finished. Continued development implies that it isn't actually finished. Its like a house builder building a house, and then saying it is finished... and then later deciding to rip out the roof and add another floor to it.
I think I covered this well in the above book, but I'll answer it again. Tynan never said the game itself was 'finished'. It was simply this phase of the game development he felt was done and he could take a break before going on to the next phase of development. Remember, over 2 years of the game development was all by himself. Yes, now he has others helping which is why he decided that it was the perfect time to take a break while they work behind the scenes. I'm also sure while this is going on, there are a few core testers working with them but can't say anything because of legal agreements.
Quote from: palandus on January 09, 2016, 07:25:01 PM
I'm not trying to be inciteful... I just want to understand his reasoning. His style of development is different than other development performed by video games and has stated before that he doesn't have a specific plan and prefers organic development. The issue is that with organic development there is NEVER a finished state; it is in perpetual development forever. That is why you need a plan; you need a clear end goal. I'm just curious what Tynan's End Goal was for a game that technically has no End Goal, and what caused him to reach this End Goal.
Well, the fact that you are not trying to be inciteful is obvious. It's why I'm taking all this time and trying to think of how to explain things from what it appears to be Tynan's point of view. Granted, it's mostly MY point of view but I think I'm understanding Tynan's to a large degree on this topic.
Tynan's style of development from what I have seen is a very dedicated and correct style for HIM in my opinion. He isn't posting 'we have this and this coming on this date' for good reason. Look through the past 'video game developers' and see how many actually came through with a solid date or 'plan' without the game being very constrained, or partially done, or other serious game breaking flaws. My favorite example of this was the game Stranghold 3.. Was so hyped up and when it came to release date, they were WAY behind because of good reasons however their project management company that contracted them said 'RELEASE' and so they reluctantly released a game that was still in 'alpha' development. It was a disaster. Sword of the Stars 2 did the same mistake. Granted they tried to say it was due to the head developer accidentally sending an old alpha that over wrote the final beta, but come on... you can't delete ALL the code and backups on accident manually when trying to upload the finished game as he tried to say he did. Tynan also isn't advertising road maps or 'fixed development' promises and uses an 'organic' form of development as you call it because it is the one that ends up making the best games for some developers. If you build a house that is ridged without room to flex organically in an environment that changes over the seasons, the changes in the environment you are going to have are going to cause some very serious problems come up during the building (development) of it in that pieces won't fit together quite right and the people viewing the end product will see where these meshed locations come up. Perhaps in one game it is a story line that doesn't quite fit together between characters or scenes. Conflicts in story line with battles. Perhaps some device or thing that has to be done doesn't quite fit in to the atmosphere. Perhaps it is a problem that isn't scene from the outside of the game except with lost or corrupted save files due to a new thing that was added to fit the ridged constraints that didn't allow for the development to alter and grow around this change. There are all sorts of arguments FOR and AGAINST the way Tynan is developing this game. Quite frankly, for some this style is the worst thing they could POSSIBLE attempt to do. For Tynan, this form of development is amazing. If it was ridged, OUR input in the game development with suggestions and such would be extremely limited. With this flexible, organic, style he has chosen he is able to listen to our suggestions. Observe and try out some of the mods for the game. Even add them INTO the game. If it wasn't flexible and organic, this would not be possible without problems. It needs to be able to organically flow and change and incorporate our input smoothly and effortlessly without causing conflicts or breaks in the coding. Can developing like this go on forever? Yes, if you don't have a generalized map of the end destination like Tynan has actually stated has come into view for him. Are we there yet? No, it's in view means we have come around the first turn and we see the lights of the small town on the horizon! (We are getting there in otherwords.)
And it is a good question. What IS the end goal that Tynan sees. Where is he taking us with this grand adventure across the galactic arm. I personally am enjoying the ride and looking out at the slowly passed star systems whenever I wake up from cryo sleep and the slime is washed off me.
Why don't we leave this thread with a polite question to Tynan and perhaps it will be stickied until he sees it and reads the question.
Tynan, could you please give us a basic road map of for development of Rimworld with your desired goals you have in mind before you call each part of the development 'complete' this way for those who are confused by the flowing style of development chosen can see there actually is structure in how you have planned this out? It probably would ease some of their fears and frustrations caused by past bad experiences.
Grey
P.S. I apologize if I may have worded something in my post poorly or used incorrect words. I have Fibromyalgia and often will get words confused that mean different things or simply think I posted one thing and typed out something entirely not what I intended or not typing entire sentences (or more) thinking I did. I DO try to re-read my posts before I hit post to correct this but can miss things if my mind doesn't register the missing parts or wrong words. I'm also very fine with people pointing these mistakes out so I can try to correct them. :)
That block of text was even scarier than the last one :o
Actually he DID say it is done; in his July 1st, 2015 blog. Check the Blog; here is a link:
https://ludeon.com/blog/page/2/
Here is the quote, "In the end, I think that a game is done when promises have been fulfilled, and there aren't holes in the design. And we're reached that point, so RimWorld is done."
Sounds like he said that Rimworld is done / finished.
He states earlier in that same blog how he looks at the game and all the major stuff are filled, and the rest of stuff are optional. However, he never has clarified what are the critical stuff and what are the optional stuff. What recent modules did he feel were critical, and why does he feel the other modules are only optional.
Quote from: Sergeant Cynical on January 10, 2016, 01:09:48 AM
That block of text was even scarier than the last one :o
LOL! I agree! ;D
Quote from: palandus on January 10, 2016, 01:31:49 AM
Actually he DID say it is done; in his July 1st, 2015 blog. Check the Blog; here is a link:
https://ludeon.com/blog/page/2/
Here is the quote, "In the end, I think that a game is done when promises have been fulfilled, and there aren't holes in the design. And we're reached that point, so RimWorld is done."
Sounds like he said that Rimworld is done / finished.
He states earlier in that same blog how he looks at the game and all the major stuff are filled, and the rest of stuff are optional. However, he never has clarified what are the critical stuff and what are the optional stuff. What recent modules did he feel were critical, and why does he feel the other modules are only optional.
Yes. this is true. However read above that:
QuoteHaving considered the feedback so far, there's a good chance I may release the game on Steam as a non-Early Access finished game. Read below for why. Nothing of substance would be different from how it's described here – it's just a labeling/PR issue.
Additionally look below that:
QuoteThat said, just because RimWorld is done doesn't necessarily mean I'm done with it.
I like working on the game, you all like playing it, and it's profitable. So I probably will add more content to the game. In the meantime, though, I think it's time for a bit of a break. I've been working on RimWorld and its prototypes for going on three years straight now, and my hours are usually pretty long. I'm starting to feel a bit of burnout. I often seem to develop this dull ache behind the eyes after a couple hours of work. I have trouble concentrating for the lengths of time that used to be normal for me. For that reason – and just because I believe in having a life that isn't all work – I'm taking some time off from full-time RimWorld development starting in September. Currently it's looking like it'll be about six months. I'll still be around to interact, but I won't be developing constantly like I have been.
And specifically a little further into reading Tynan's book :P :
QuoteAs I said, I like working on RimWorld, but I've also learned that the future is very uncertain and it's a bad idea to make promises you're not sure you can keep.
He has also stated in the most RECENT blog Post, November 12th, that work is ONGOING.
QuoteWith the magic of laptops and Internet, and excellent work from coding prodigy Piotr 'ison' Walczak, progress on the game itself is continuing at full speed even while I'm not at home.
He also explained in that blog post WHY he won't go into details about what is coming beyond the list what what is being worked on currently:
QuoteWe work iteratively, so things change a lot, often in unexpected ways. So I won't go into detail about exactly what's being added. But I can offer some generalities.
So, with the blog post and his interaction in the forums from time to time after that it is very obvious that he is still working on the game. The 'FINISHED' part is more of a PR statement in that all the promises are done, the game is fun in its current state, there are no holes in the coding or massive bugs, and there are still some 'optional' content that he plans to put INTO the game before he will say he is 'done' with the game.
Think of it as you are building a car. You put together the engine on a stand. You get the engine to start and run so it works. You build a body for the car. It sound and solid and can mount/support the engine. You build the transmission. You put a seat in it you can set on, although just a piece of metal it works. You put the engine into the car. Attach it to the transmission. Attach a drive shaft to the transmission and attach it to wheels. The car now goes forward and back. You attach a steering system to the front wheels. Now you can turn the car. It goes forward and takes you places and also carries stuff for you. Car is finished. So once again, the word 'finished' is saying 'yes the the car is built' but now we can give it the optional paint job, the plush leather seats, a radio, a windscreen, and you get what I am saying. Yes, the game is 'Finished' but it is not done. Tynan says this himself that he plans to keep adding optional content to flesh it out.
Additionally Tynan states this:
QuoteI appreciate all discussion but please don't ask for more details on these! Check the FAQ for more info on why we don't release detailed descriptions of unreleased designs.
In the FAQ he states this:
QuoteI have a question about future developments.
– Ludeon uses an iterative, evidence-based, dynamic development process that changed direction often. This is the best way to create the strongest game design, but it also means we have no way of knowing how the game will develop before it does. So to reduce stress, wailing, and gnashing of teeth when the designs change (as they always do, for good reasons) we won't answer questions about future developments. Because honestly – we just don't know the answer! This leaves us free to iterate and change things as needed without worrying about pissing off players who were expecting a certain feature to work a certain way. It also saves us a lot of time that would otherwise be spent constantly managing and updating community expectations, which means that we can get the actual game to you faster and better.
This is why I said, ask him. He MAY give you a generalized plan of what he is still planning with Rimworld development. As for right now, he gave us what he is CURRENTLY working on in November 12th's blog post. For me, that is good enough. I don't mind the delay before release of it. He says he is going to release it on his return and that is good enough for me. Tynan has always done exactly what he has said he will do in the past. I don't see that changing over the next couple months before he returns.
Grey
Quote from: palandus on January 10, 2016, 01:31:49 AMHe states earlier in that same blog how he looks at the game and all the major stuff are filled, and the rest of stuff are optional. However, he never has clarified what are the critical stuff and what are the optional stuff. What recent modules did he feel were critical, and why does he feel the other modules are only optional.
The obvious answer is that it's entirely subjective, based on his own idea of what the finished product should look like. And that's fine, because he's the developer.
Quote from: Justin C on January 10, 2016, 02:22:46 AMsubjective
Thank you SO much! I was trying to figure out that word from the description of the word in my mind... -.- For those familiar with Fibromyalgia and it fogging up the mind, you understand what I am saying about knowing definitions and can't remember the word!
Grey
Quote from: Ramsis on January 04, 2016, 08:14:19 PM
I'm not going to ban you despite wanting to, mostly because you're an idiot and just assume the worst to such an umpf degree that you make yourself look foolish. The game is healthy, the development team is great, the game will be finished and you'll have egg on your face :)
Threatening to ban someone and calling them an idiot for expressing worries about a game they are supporting? Is this the kind of customer service we should expect once the game is released?
The exact case he mentioned HAS happened with Early Access games, so many times, it is a very valid concern and as so many have commented, a six month vacation is insane.
I can't even believe a representative of the game would leave a comment like this, it is so amazingly unprofessional.
P.S. Haven't been on the forum in a while and I have not read this thread all the way through, but I was checking because I do worry about the future of the game and seeing moderators threatening bans for expressing such worries doesn't exactly allay them.
If you check the post that Ramsis is replying to (on page 2) you will note that the poster is quite petulant.
Frankly, if someone does post inflammatory remarks then a temp ban is an option open to a moderator, provided that they explain why the ban is being given. Threatening a ban if a poster doesn't alter their behaviour is a reminder that this forum has rules and that the moderator will enforce them.
Having concerns is one thing. Spouting off some hysterical hyperbole is another. Starvation is not something to wish on someone, least of all for the perceived "abandonment" of an indie game. That is idiotic ranting.
I'm all for presenting a friendly face to customers, as long as they in turn respect the forum rules and don't jump on some bandwagon claiming that the end is nigh or other such doomsaying. ;)
It can be said that a game is as strong as the community which supports it. I don't know if you guys realise this, but I was part of the community effort to update Galactic Civilisations II, a game which had all sorts of problems after the second expansion Twilight of the Arnor. But quite recently the community update for the game was pushed out as an update on Steam.
Now, that's not what usually happens. Quite often when a developer is done with a game, they've moved on to something new and there's not a lot of incentive for them to revisit an old title. Indeed, there was a period where it seemed like Stardock had forgotten about our little project, and then they went forward with an update (not just on Steam, mind, but a DRM-free release on GOG too) and suddenly it was back on.
My impression is that RimWorld's community, taken as a whole, makes it a bit more worthwhile to work on RimWorld. If Tynan were just interested in £££ then he would have calculated a particular cut-off point and called it done.
There are good and not completely selfless reasons to have a community stick around. When you start developing a new game then you have an audience to try ideas on. When you screw something up they will tell you about it. When they enjoy the game for reasons you couldn't have anticipated, you learn more about your target demographic. ;)
Games with a disunited community are probably less fun to work on. For example, all the relevant and helpful discussion about The Sims is on modder boards. I probably don't need to tell you why modders don't hang out much on the official The Sims forums. :/
I have the impression that is reasonable for people to get stressed when the game doesn't get updated for 6 months.
Even if he is away, it would be reasonable to release the current state of the game with the updates he promised 3 months ago (some of them seems to be important).
Even if things are still buggy, the game is in alpha and users will help to balance.
Do the moderators have the chance to get in touch with the developers and see if we can test a new alpha?
Quote from: wbonxx on January 11, 2016, 12:32:52 PM
I have the impression that is reasonable for people to get stressed when the game doesn't get updated for 6 months.
Its not reasonable when the 6 months are made clear in the first place. If he didnt say anything and went radio silent that would be another story.
Quote from: wbonxx on January 11, 2016, 12:32:52 PM
Even if he is away, it would be reasonable to release the current state of the game with the updates he promised 3 months ago (some of them seems to be important).
It would not. Testing and QA takes a lot of effort and time to manage. So it wouldnt be vacation time for him if he was busy doing that.
Quote from: wbonxx on January 11, 2016, 12:32:52 PM
Even if things are still buggy, the game is in alpha and users will help to balance.
That would be a chaotic mess. Tynan doesnt do things that way. Private testers would be the first in line to test things. Thats what we do. Once it gets past us its the public testers and then finally the public. There will still be bugs to find but that whole process would be horribly slowed down if he wanted to stay on vacation so its just not worth it.
Quote from: wbonxx on January 11, 2016, 12:32:52 PM
Do the moderators have the chance to get in touch with the developers and see if we can test a new alpha?
Why do you need a mod? Tynan has already told us when thats going to happen. Sometime March(ish) being 6 months after he said he was taking a break. Thats when the testing will most likely start. Being a big update it might take longer than normal so Expect April and be pleasantly surprised if its earlier than that.
the first question i have is : "why six months?"
and my speculation is that tynan went up in the mountains to train with jedi vodoo warrior monks to upgrade his leet skillz into an "uber-god who's your daddy now?" skills.
back then people kept requesting stuff like water dynamics, z-levels, multiplayer, etc.. but back then i didn't think this game architecture permitted such things..
iirc, this game was developed in unity3d, but just like every other sdks, new releases offers new features and all that jazz..
so why six months hiatus?
he's probably upgrading the game's architecture from the ground up to better utilize new sdk features... either that or he was surfing and found a mad tidal wave which brought him to a strange island where you need to press a red button periodically to prevent the world from ending, while listening to songs by mama cass..
He didnt want to get burned out. Presumably he has a life outside of development he wanted to get back in touch with. Other things like family might be involved. He did some traveling as well. 6 months does seem a bit long but if he was planning on doing a steam release then he needs not only to recover from previous development but also ready himself for the insanity that comes with developing a game on steam. Im thinking that a month after Rimworld on steam he will be grateful that he didnt do it before a nice long break.
nuuu... don't ruin my jedi voodo ninja monk kick-fighting fantasy of mad level-up skillz!!
hahaha.. ;D
kidding aside, any new cool mods around you guys can recommend?
Quote from: wbonxx on January 11, 2016, 12:32:52 PM
I have the impression that is reasonable for people to get stressed when the game doesn't get updated for 6 months.
He didn't vanish. He made the 6 month break clear beforehand.
Now I'm not accusing you of something and I'm truly sorry if that's the case, but I find it a bit amusing to see so many new accounts (1 total comment) regularly chiming in into this already heated thread and almost always posting similar arguments and generally having a similar opinion.
The guy who said Tynan should starve only came into this thread
once and then vanished. Maybe throw out some IP-bans, mods?
Quote from: MarvinKosh on January 11, 2016, 03:11:11 AM
If you check the post that Ramsis is replying to (on page 2) you will note that the poster is quite petulant. Having concerns is one thing. Spouting off some hysterical hyperbole is another. Starvation is not something to wish on someone, least of all for the perceived "abandonment" of an indie game. That is idiotic ranting.
Yes, I see that now, however the ban threat and insults were
prior to the death wishes and all that non-sense. While the guy in question is probably an angry child or a troll, I still take umbrage with the game's public representatives threatening to ban people for criticism, even if it strongly worded or poorly founded.
QuoteFrankly, if someone does post inflammatory remarks then a temp ban is an option open to a moderator, provided that they explain why the ban is being given. Threatening a ban if a poster doesn't alter their behaviour is a reminder that this forum has rules and that the moderator will enforce them.
Sure... except that the original post was not inflammatory. It is not inflammatory to say that Tynan may abandon the game, it's a concern.
QuoteI'm all for presenting a friendly face to customers, as long as they in turn respect the forum rules and don't jump on some bandwagon claiming that the end is nigh or other such doomsaying. ;)
While doomsaying and making a big fuss over the end of the game is an over-reaction, I'd say that's mainly just 'cause it's a video game and not because it's unreasonable to have an attachment to your purchases.
Anyway, I just thought that Ramsis came off nearly as over-excited and inflammatory as the other guy, which bothers me more because he, like all of you moderators/administrators, is basically Tynan's personal mouth-piece as long as Tynan is off in Neverland.
I appreciate all he's done, but at the same time, I would have liked there to be some natural ending to it all. The ship is kind of a cop out if you can't at least take those people to start a new colony.
Skissor, you are a bit on the aggressive side as a moderator, you should chill a bit.
A lot of people came here posting disappointed because it is not reasonable not to update for 6 months a kickstarter founded game (and every one that bought the game in alpha is somehow paying for his 6 months holidays), it is a bit ridiculous.
A 6 months vacation is impossible in 99% of the companies, even if he feels like, at least there should be someone else posting a new alpha release every 2 months.
When crowd-founding people should start posting how much vacations are they gonna take, I don't wanna be in my 70s when a game I have payed for is finished.
With the info Tynan stated in his last Blog post, I suspect when he returns (which should be sooner than Later I hope) there is going to be a game breaking update due to the amount of content he will be adding, changing, updating. I was going through the source files and such and realized, he has the Steam Workshop system partially in place. This makes me believe this next update, besides adding Steam Workshop support, is going to be either the Steam release or a massive just before Steam release so we can help work the new content and polishing bugs out. As Tynan pointed out back in November;
QuoteSo far, we've added:
- Self-reproducing, spreading underground insect hives
- Social relationships with friends, rivals, family, chats, arguments, and fights
- Many more animals, some of which will hunt people
- "Components" resource used for machinery and electronics
- Ground-traveling trade caravans from other factions
- Character records which keep stats on each character like number of kills, injuries, surgeries, etc.
- Extreme desert biome
This makes me feel he is fleshing out this project quite a bit. I can't wait for this up coming update. Even if it was only this, it would still be a massive update. I suspect better end game aspects are going to be added in this update as well.
While I agree, other than the one that threw a fit with threats... I also agree the rest are legit worries, concerns, and complaints. I only wish Tynan would stop by the forums a little more often on his vacation so those who feel abandoned could gain a little more reassurance that Tynan is still with us, still working on the game, and hasn't gone the road that many Indie developers have. I for one feel very confident Tynan is still with us. His past actions proving he is a man of his word speak louder to me than words in a forum can. And yes, I have been burned on kick starter games and others. I'm still deeply saddened by the loss of the game Towns after the community nagging and whining that he wasn't developing it fast enough burned him out completely.
I'm also glad this is a civilized and rational conversation thread and not a hanging mob out of control! :P
Grey
I started playing games on old Commodore 64 and on neighbours Atari (already forgot those completly, were pretty "simplistic" could call them "lame" today)
Later one of my friends bought an Amiga and I still remember the games like North and South and Centurion, back in the days we found them super awesome, we played each day for hours for a looong time, 3 friends playing in turns, would i still find them awesome today? I dont think so, but back then, yeah, super addictive, we also played Mario and stuff on Family Computer and NES.
One day i visited a book store and saw an employee there play Wolfenstein 3D on shops 386 computer, when i first saw it as a kid I was like WOOOOOW incredible, never saw such detail in a game before, everything looked sooo perfect, wanted to play it at home immediately, was annoying my dad nonstop to buy a computer and he did, he got a 486 DX/2 with 64MB RAM + a cool joystick, which at that time was top of the top cpu, from then on... i played more or less every interesting game there was up to 2002 or something like that, eating them away, one by one... Remember loving Privateer, Warcraft 1, Doom, Master of Orion, Civilization, Colonization, Popolous, X wing vs Tie fighter etc, must have finished more than hundred.. (was playing way beyond the point of interest, joy, trying to get all the "insane" things unlocked, just imagine playing rimworld 500x the same level, just a bit more harder each time, for that extra star in your stats and nothing else, to show to your friends and see them be amazed, jelaous...)
Then i met Ultima 7, that game was so f...... awesome it completly blew me away, the huge world to explore, training up chars, unique amazing story, but you didnt even need to follow story, could just get into the game and play the way u wanted, could do bassicly anything and that was incredible, never met such a deep game before, must have spent endless months on it, even the side quests were deep complex and had a meaning way beyond most of games today have, was sooo "fck... awesome, started to love rpg games, loved Finaly Fantasy series, played each one several times (around 20h playthrough per FF sequel only thou) played mostly all good RPGs up to Oblivion and Fallout.
When i look back now, Ultima 7 probably is one of the best games i ever played, made the most impression on me, when it was announced that "Lord British" the author of Ultima series is working on an online version of Ultima, we all got wet pants, and i was like "a dream coming true" We waited for it for years!!!
When i see you guys "cry out" cause there is a 6 month break in news update about games creation, i find it ridicolous, i waited for UO for nearly 5+years! and all i saw in between were some images on E conventions, not even once i thought of being angry at "Lord British" i was happy someone like him existed and was making a game i knew im gonna love one day. While waiting for release, i met Duke Nukem... again blown away, was top game at that time, the graphics were awesome, the guy was cool, it even had an awesome multiplayer, me and brother at that time already had network set up and could play through LAN each day. Couple times a year we made lan parties and 6+ ppl brought computers and had awesome fun for two days - up to a week. Then came Quake 1 and again the story repeated itself... Even made some maps for it, we played it nonstop... As time passed each new year games with better graphics were coming out and you also needed better computer to play it at same time (must have bought new computer up to 4 times at least and that till age of 15, had a cool dad...) but more and more they were becoming this eye candy thing while the other aspects started to lack heavily, remember i finished Quake 2 in 5 hours after i got my hands on it, was sooo dissapointed with that short SP playthrough, althou i played online in a clan for more than a year later... Won our countries Unreal championship shortly after it came out and got one of the first dvd players. Soon the world was filled with copies of copies of copies of games and their "minor" sequels (i think EA was worst of them all, no matter if they made some of rly cool games, their sequels with not rly much new stuff added were becoming super annoying (way too few new content to call it a new game or a sequel) and sadly others followed due to their success, while people like "Lord British" - (Richard Garriot) never dissapointed and are legends for me)
So with each passing year games were becoming more and more this 5-10h playthrough thing eyecandy...
From a gamers perspective, lucky for me Ultima Online finally came out, it was as promised! It was a dream come true... was playing it nonstop, from its begginings for something like 2 years, days and nights. (became a legend on that shard i played, unbeatable, won 1vs15 battle near my end which meant alot to me as a kid) after 2 years a big part of community started to pressure about making the game less "unforgiving" like: you dont lose loot when u die etc.... safe zones... in original u could even steal someones house, aside all loot he had, if you killed him and he had keys on him, that was soo cool... althou the creator was heavily against changing it, the company that "owned" it eventually took over and made it "pussy friendly" which completly ruined the game.
Then games like Lineage and WoW came out using same "friendly" principles... By then i knew its better to walk away or lose my life to some things which dont really play much role... Its not like you will remember much more than images from a game in couple years later.
So at around 15 i started going out on techno parties, smoking pot etc..., having fun, stoped playing games eventually, experienced alot of things in my life, visited more than 30 countries, was on 50+ mountains, explored nature alot, now im almost 33y old and needed a change again so in last year i picked up a game now and then, didnt even bother with those new call of duties and such and wont prolly be playing hardcore rpgs since i doubt there is much new stuff around anyway, except better physics and graphics by what i saw, star citizen looks interesting, loved freelancer, from videos, it is a game i would be wet pants about if i was younger, but that would again be just throwing life away, making no memories that matter when you get older... (my brief history in gaming etc..)
Now my reply to this conversation since i found it interesting: Was thinking about all this alot and having a chance to get a quick heads up history and stuff about Rimworld and Tynan in this thread from some of older community members, I sure hope that you "Tynan" are enjoying your life away from computer at the moment, you seem like a really nice guy from the profile picture and im seldom wrong in people, i met Rimworld at a point where i didnt rly care about games much anymore and was surprised there was one that could "force" me to stay up at nights instead sleeping, already played it for 20 times longer now than most of the games i already finished in my life and there were really alot. I too at first thought it lacks alot stuff but looking at everything more carefully, it is just a point of someone seeking perfection, which no game ever can offer anyway, as soon as something is perceived as perfect, somewhere something more perfect is born. I too would love to see alot things added, like unreasonable alot, like exploring galaxy on ship you build :), but that would take your youth away to create, I think you can easily call it done, especially in the world of games we know today, although it has potentional to become "one of the best games", but for how long and at what price? Follow your dreams and dont mind the rest. Enjoy your life, you earned it. Im happy with the game the way it is. Probably wont remember much in couple years anymore, but anytime i will go and play it, the gameplay will be awesome. Find it Unique, althou similar as DF in alot, for me df is way too rough to even take it seriously. Rimworld on other hand - had most stuff i hoped it has when i played for first time already implemented and perfected, havent saw any game breaking bugs, as with every game, at first we are driven by mistery of the game we play, but eventually we learn the way things are and learn the games mechanics and most of the stuff about it and it becomes less interesting and we want more. Thumbs up and sure hope you aint wasting too much of your life behind keyboard, unless of course... that is your dream. :)
Quote from: porcupine on January 05, 2016, 06:44:24 PM
Is it Tynan's prerogative? Definitely, that's the very definition of the word after all.
I had to go and look up the word of the day but I agree whole heartedly with your comment. It is exactly what I expect to happen.
@SENS - Mate that's a hell of a life story to throw into a forum post. I skipped over about half of it as I'm being harassed by my kids. My reply to your post is sucking up to Tynan isn't going to make him come back to work any faster it will just leave your nose smelling like shit.
Hey Austupaio,
I wasn't around when this topic was being discussed, so I don't know if ZOMBIE2 is actually the person who posted that or whether it's a fake quote with stuff added. I'm leaning towards the latter.
Quote from: pooch on January 04, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on January 03, 2016, 02:40:51 AM
Quote from: uglyduckling81 on January 03, 2016, 01:10:24 AM
If I had to guess I would say this game is doomed. It makes me sad because the quality of this development made me buy in after I had declared I would never support early access again.
Taking a 6 months hiatus mid development is a very bad sign. If he had taken a couple of weeks off like a normal person taking holidays I would see it as no problem.
I guess it's the problem with throwing so much money at a guy just starting out.
If I was a betting man I would put money on him starting a new project once gets home and effectively abandoning Rimworld.
Hopefully that's not the case and I invested wisely in this game but I don't have much hope.
this is exactly why I do not buy or support games until released anymore. Taking a 6 month break while a game is in alpha is inexcusable and unforgivable. This dev will never see a penny of my money in this or any other game he is involved with for life! I hope he starves. Devs like this hurt the entire gaming community. If you cannot finish, the DO NOT START!
But as far as I can see, Ramsis is posting a reply
after the ranting, not before.
It
is inflammatory to post unfounded criticism for the sole purpose of baiting other posters to reply. As was noted, the poster who chimed in had just a single post, making it very likely that they signed up just to troll.
As such, it's my opinion that what Ramsis did was justified. I'm not sure that Tynan would have posted something as obtuse as, for example, "don't let the door hit your ass on the way out" but on the occasion where forum posters are singling him out he does usually have a scathing comeback like
"Recreational anger doesn't become you."
I may be thick, but could you point out the unfounded criticism in those posts, you quoted, MarvinKosh? As far as I can see, the only unfounded criticism is "this game is doomed".
They are right that taking a 6 month hiatus mid-development is a very bad sign. Yes I can understand the desire to avoid burnout, but at the same time, he is right, it is still technically mid-development. If the guys making Star Citizen said they were going to go on a 6 month break, as they've been working on their game for about as long (if not longer?) wouldn't that be a cause for concern? They are also right, that taking a break generally in the gaming industry or really any industry constitutes for up to 1 month tops, not 6.
As Tynan has said the game is done. It doesn't mean he won't work on it, and that doesn't mean he isn't going to return with a large update, but in his eyes it is done. Therefore, he could decide to start up a new project when he returns home. Yes that might be speculation, but I still see that as a valid concern for many people, considering Tynan himself said it was done. And as starting a new project would suck up a lot of time, it would effectively end development for Rimworld. I'm not saying that is what he will do, but again, this is still valid criticism.
As for the other post...
The guy is pointing out, indirectly, that he has been burned in the past by other independent developers likely in Early Access or from other Kickstarter projects like so many other people. He is apparently angry that it appears Tynan has "abandoned" development; clearly Tynan hasn't if you read the blog, but I digress.
He is right that taking a 6 month break while in ALPHA is generally inexcusable and unforgivable. If any of the other major kickstarter projects that have been in development as long as Rimworld has (Star Citizen, Godus, etc), decided to take a 6 month break during their Alpha stage, you'd likely be furious too. You don't stop development mid-way through; you keep at it until you have a finished product. Yes I can understand WHY Tynan is doing what he is doing, but the fact remains that he chose to do it during development which unfortunately makes him look bad.
Then the guy hurts his case by getting all melodramatic which of course causes people to glaze over their arguments and call them a troll.
He is also right that Developers that can't finish what they started DO hurt the gaming community. I'm not saying that Tynan won't complete what he has started, but the possibility is there. A good example of this is Towns. A lot of people, including myself, really liked Towns. But then before it was finished the Developers just abandoned it. That sucks, and a lot of people lost faith in Indies as a result of that. I don't think Tynan is one of those people but still, you don't take LONG protracted breaks from development; most people are fine with 1 month; that is reasonable, as that is what normal regular people get for their holidays AT BEST. I hope in the future Tynan realizes that taking a 6 month break has made people lose faith in him and has tarnished his image. He should also look into better ways of addressing impending burnout, but that is a conversation for another day.
PS: That was longer winded than I intended, but that's sometimes what happens.
Well guys, in a game like rimworld, do you really think it is possible to complete it? The best Tynan can do is to leave a very strong base to the game. Which depending of your personal opnion, it also can't be done.
For me, the game has paied itself, i am still having alot of fun with it. If the development continues (as I know it will at least until steam release) it will be great, the basis will get even stronger. And if it stops after steam release with or without the workshop, our modding community will get larger, and the game will still receive content from them.
The 6 months hiautos may raise some distrust, but for me that has been silently watching the game since Alpha 2, I see no problem for this pause.
Some quick points;
While a month of holiday may be the best case scenario in the U.S., other countries around the world have a better work-life balance. I for one get around 2 months of paid leave a year. In addition, over multiple years I can build up a sabbatical allowing for a longer period (max 1 year) of paid leave - admittedly that would take many years to build, but still.
Second, while a developer taking such a long break mid-development is indeed a bad sign, and probably a bad idea, I personally get the impression that the break is not so much from development as it is from PR and community work. Behind the scenes, clearly a lot of work is still getting done. It's still not a great idea to be out of contact for that long, but I can only begin to imagine the amount of pressure/opinions Tynan has to deal with from being such a public figure. In most studios, developers would be kept out of the public eye so they can focus on what they do best - Tynan has to deal with all of it.
I'd say it's a well deserved rest period, and I hope he comes back recovered and refreshed. At the same time, I understand the criticism about what is probably a badly timed break. But let's not get overexcited and assume the worst, I have no reason to doubt Tynan will live up to his word - he's always done so so far.
P.S. A long break is also preferable to another possible stress relief; that Tynan calls the game done and starts another project.
Ludeon Studios is still working on the game, thats all you need to know.
Quote from: skullywag on January 13, 2016, 08:18:30 AM
Ludeon Studios is still working on the game, thats all you need to know.
Excellent Summery. Everything else is noise. Just relax, enjoy testing some mods, play other games so you can come back to the next alpha refreshed yourself. Ive got a feeling Tynan is going to blow us all away with the new content. Not just with what hes told us but with the things he hasnt told us.
Quote from: palandus on January 13, 2016, 04:14:49 AM
I may be thick, but could you point out the unfounded criticism in those posts, you quoted, MarvinKosh? As far as I can see, the only unfounded criticism is "this game is doomed".
"Taking a six-month break mid-development is a bad sign." - thinking that it is makes it so?
"I guess it's the problem with throwing so much money at a guy just starting out." - again, pointing out a problem that doesn't exist.
"If I was a betting man I would put money on him starting a new project once gets home and effectively abandoning Rimworld." - Pure speculation.
"Taking a 6 month break while a game is in alpha is inexcusable and unforgivable." - Perhaps it would be, if there was nobody working on the code base, but there is, so this is unfounded as well.
"Devs like this hurt the entire gaming community. If you cannot finish, the DO NOT START!" - Okay well first of all, Tynan went through several prototypes before coming up with what we now know as RimWorld. Is anyone complaining about the prototypes that didn't make the cut? Again, development of the next version of RimWorld is well in hand, so the 'OMG you cannot finish' is, as you said, melodramatic.
There's no real foundation to the notion that Tynan is abandoning RimWorld as far as I can see. It's just instigated hysteria. Which, by the way, I said would happen. At least I'm pretty sure I said that somewhere.
Quote from: MarvinKosh on January 13, 2016, 10:06:06 AM
There's no real foundation to the notion that Tynan is abandoning RimWorld as far as I can see. It's just instigated hysteria. Which, by the way, I said would happen.
/thread
Quote from: MarvinKosh on January 13, 2016, 10:06:06 AM
"Taking a 6 month break while a game is in alpha is inexcusable and unforgivable." - Perhaps it would be, if there was nobody working on the code base, but there is, so this is unfounded as well.
Just this. I believe that this topic is done, more of it will be just spam. The aswer was given already, around March/2016.
Quote from: Listen1 on January 13, 2016, 11:06:03 AM
Quote from: MarvinKosh on January 13, 2016, 10:06:06 AM
"Taking a 6 month break while a game is in alpha is inexcusable and unforgivable." - Perhaps it would be, if there was nobody working on the code base, but there is, so this is unfounded as well.
Just this. I believe that this topic is done, more of it will be just spam. The aswer was given already, around March/2016.
I've been around with this game for a while (early Alpha stage, I think Alpha 3) and I felt similar. It's astonishing how some people place trust in people we've never met. I don't distrust the developer specifically, but there have been numerous ones that take off in the middle of game development, and taking a six month break in Alpha stage is never a good sign.
Who takes a six month break? I've never had a six month break.
So, bottom line. Hopefully he returns and completes the game. My guess is he will. But unless you know him (or his character) personally, let's not be judgmental of the people who are skeptical.
Edit: Just wanted to throw in the caveat that the game is more than playable, I've got my money worth (and then some, with all the playable Alphas) and that if this was the final condition, I'd be fine with it.
Quote from: nuschler22 on January 14, 2016, 01:45:57 PM
Quote from: Listen1 on January 13, 2016, 11:06:03 AM
Quote from: MarvinKosh on January 13, 2016, 10:06:06 AM
"Taking a 6 month break while a game is in alpha is inexcusable and unforgivable." - Perhaps it would be, if there was nobody working on the code base, but there is, so this is unfounded as well.
Just this. I believe that this topic is done, more of it will be just spam. The aswer was given already, around March/2016.
I've been around with this game for a while (early Alpha stage, I think Alpha 3) and I felt similar. It's astonishing how some people place trust in people we've never met. I don't distrust the developer specifically, but there have been numerous ones that take off in the middle of game development, and taking a six month break in Alpha stage is never a good sign.
Who takes a six month break? I've never had a six month break.
So, bottom line. Hopefully he returns and completes the game. My guess is he will. But unless you know him (or his character) personally, let's not be judgmental of the people who are skeptical.
Edit: Just wanted to throw in the caveat that the game is more than playable, I've got my money worth (and then some, with all the playable Alphas) and that if this was the final condition, I'd be fine with it.
Sure, there's a possibility that he could just abandon it and never return like i expect some other developers have done before, but there is no reason at all to believe that is a likely event. There's nothing to suggest anything like that is going to happen. It's pretty unfounded in this case.
In what way is this break a bad sign? He stated several times that it was going to happen and he'd be gone for a while. Tynan has been working on the game pretty much by himself for the past few years, a break from it for a while isn't a sign of anything bad at all. If this was far earlier in development then that would look pretty bad, but he's put a lot of work into the game over the past few years without really having any time off up until now (at least as far as i know).
Besides, development of the game has not stopped at all and Tynan actually still is working on it to some degree. So it's not so much a a case of 6 months with no work on the game and more like 6 months of non-public development/working on it in the background.
Quote from: TheVoidDragon on January 14, 2016, 04:31:58 PM
Sure, there's a possibility that he could just abandon it and never return like i expect some other developers have done before, but there is no reason at all to believe that is a likely event. There's nothing to suggest anything like that is going to happen. It's pretty unfounded in this case.
I don't understand why people keep saying this. Do I personally think it's going to happen? Not really. But do developers usually announce that they're disappearing with the remains of their startup capital when they disappear? No. It's always unfounded, and unlikely, until it happens.
Quote from: TheVoidDragon on January 14, 2016, 04:31:58 PM
In what way is this break a bad sign? He stated several times that it was going to happen and he'd be gone for a while. Tynan has been working on the game pretty much by himself for the past few years, a break from it for a while isn't a sign of anything bad at all. If this was far earlier in development then that would look pretty bad, but he's put a lot of work into the game over the past few years without really having any time off up until now (at least as far as i know).
Except for the fact that he hasn't been working on his own? He's had hires doing music, graphics, some coding, etc. The website goes to length to ensure it's clear it's not a one man show, presumably because people don't want to be perceived as such, it's bad for sales amongst other things.
Also, Tynan has taken vacations several times, like any normal person, as could be seen by no updates in his daily work logs (which good on him for keeping the community up to date of course). He took a week off for Christmas 2014, a week off in that summer, two weeks off in that spring, 2 weeks off Christmas 2013, another 3 weeks off in the fall of 2013, and long weekends here/there.
Is any of that unreasonable? Not in the least. But to say he's been working himself to the bone, non-stop? That's over a month of vacation a year, more than many get.
Quote from: TheVoidDragon on January 14, 2016, 04:31:58 PM
Besides, development of the game has not stopped at all and Tynan actually still is working on it to some degree. So it's not so much a a case of 6 months with no work on the game and more like 6 months of non-public development/working on it in the background.
People keep regurgitating this line, which again harks back to the first quote. There is development ongoing, which produces zero visible results, and nobody can verify, as nobody knows the developer, and nobody can see the results, no testing is ongoing, no discussion of what said development is, etc. All you have is Tynan's word to go on there. Do I think he's being dishonest about this? Unlikely, but again, like any of you, I know nothing on the subject, and that's where speculation originates.
This thread alone is one of the reasons startup developers shouldn't and typically don't disappear for 6 months. If you ran across this thread on Google while contemplating buying the game, would you be likely to purchase? I bet not. Bottom line is that unusually long hiatus' hurt development, hurt sales, and hurt the community (are any other topics this divisive?!)
QuoteBesides, development of the game has not stopped at all and Tynan actually still is working on it to some degree. So it's not so much a a case of 6 months with no work on the game and more like 6 months of non-public development/working on it in the background.
Lol. Be realistic guys. There's a ton of other games out there with actual non-fantasy development/communication. If Tynan really cared he would have hired of a go-between to interact with the community with actual information to keep the community invigorated. It's not like it's expensive or he can't afford it.
Or...zomg, spend a couple minutes during his 6+ month vacation to poke his head up and say something.
Instead I check on this thread every few days and see nothing but die-hard fans puking out the same unverifiable quotes and forum moderators looking for an excuse to lock yet another thread about this.
Don't set yourselves up for disappointment, just move on. There' still dwarf fortress, and a new project that literally combines minecraft with dwarf fortress, which is imo the "final form" of this genre, and it looks spectacular.
Quote from: gnomeknows on January 14, 2016, 09:51:37 PM
Or...zomg, spend a couple minutes during his 6+ month vacation to poke his head up and say something.
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=17246.msg187125#msg187125
He seems pretty pissed though.
too little too late, I just don't believe it.
Quote from: gnomeknows on January 14, 2016, 10:06:50 PM
too little too late, I just don't believe it.
Wanna bet? :D
Quote from: gnomeknows on January 14, 2016, 10:06:50 PM
too little too late, I just don't believe it.
Jesus then why are you still here? If this project is so done then you can move on to something else, can't you?
Oh wait no, you can't even check a post history (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=1) and see that he's been posting a few times during his vacation, so what the fk are you complaining about? If you'd be on some time out from your work (and this forum is somewhat work for him), would you still show up at your workplace every week to say hello to everybody (and help out or do whatever)?
Ohh, another die-hard quoter. Ya I read his comment about that, he wants the nay-sayers to put up even more money.
What really got me was that he said keeping the community informed and alive is less important that work on the actual game. Does he not realize there is no game without a community?
User was warned for this post: Rule 2 (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=122.0)
There is a community. If it slows down a little bit between releases, that is to be expected.
If there's something which is harmful to a community, it's one guy with an agenda to tear that community apart with whatever dirt he can conjure up.
Anyway, I'm done entertaining the notion that this topic could go somewhere nice. You guys had your chance, now I'm locking it.
Also, I thought I would add, given that Tynan has set himself a particular timeframe for his break, does it make sense for him to drop what he's doing every few days and come and set things straight? No, it doesn't. That's not taking a break.
Something you should also remember is that when a game is in alpha, it may have bugs. The 'stable' versions that you have played are no exceptions, but the internal builds are likely to be worse still. So if you feel like you have expectations that there should be some quick and dirty screenshots and videos, well all you'll see is the game crashing because it hasn't been through intensive testing yet.
To quote the FAQ over on the blog:
QuoteLudeon uses an iterative, evidence-based, dynamic development process that changed direction often. This is the best way to create the strongest game design, but it also means we have no way of knowing how the game will develop before it does. So to reduce stress, wailing, and gnashing of teeth when the designs change (as they always do, for good reasons) we won't answer questions about future developments. Because honestly – we just don't know the answer! This leaves us free to iterate and change things as needed without worrying about pissing off players who were expecting a certain feature to work a certain way. It also saves us a lot of time that would otherwise be spent constantly managing and updating community expectations, which means that we can get the actual game to you faster and better.
And yes, I fully expect some naysayer to say 'well that's just an excuse to not update the community.' We go through this
every alpha, the only difference being that more time is elapsing between versions. If you want livestreams every week with designers, there are other dev studios that do that. Go watch them not doing any designing for a couple of hours, and let me know how that makes you feel. ;)