From watching the videos, we can see that individual colonists have a (currently) limited set of skills, one Childhood backstory, one Adult backstory, and two traits (currently not implemented). We can also see that each colonist can pick up one weapon for combat use. They also have Loyalty, Happiness, and Fear ratings, along with many event-driven bonuses or penalties, such as seeing bodies, having a good meal, or living in cramped quarters.
What I'd like to talk about is how the current setup might be tweaked, with regard to other aspects of the game.
One aspect would be the "Character Inventory". I would suggest two Equipment slots:
Body: Any kind of "suit type addition" of gear, for combat, working or survival need.
- Armor (damage reduction)
- Mech Suits (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=142.0) - with possible different varients, combat or construction.
- Upgraded survival suits if Biome's or vacuum environments are implemented.
Hands: Any type of advanced equipment that would need to be purchased or built in order to get the effect.
- Weapons
- Mining equipment
- Medical equipment
These would of course tie in with any kind of Manufacturing System (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=134.0) that would be put in place, or that would have to be purchased/looted.
I don't see the need to make an overly complicated gear/clothes system that would cover every tiny detail; these two slots would be enough for a bit of diversity in how well your colonists do with regard to how they are equipped. You might have a construction worker equipped with a Construction Mech Suit and a Pneumatic Drill who can chop through rock and build walls with ease - but if you send them into combat next to the person wearing Combat Armor and carrying an Assault Rifle, they will be pretty ineffective (and know it).
I second that :)
Personally I think that it's a good idea for two slots of inventory. Maybe for later?
Because then you can do something more in regards to realism: Something like if you don't have the needed equipment in your inventory, you won't be able to do specific work types.
I myself find it sometimes a bit hard to dig a hole to live in into a mountain.. with nothing but my two hands. ;D
Quote from: Haplo on October 09, 2013, 02:09:45 PM
I second that :)
Personally I think that it's a good idea for two slots of inventory. Maybe for later?
Because then you can do something more in regards to realism: Something like if you don't have the needed equipment in your inventory, you won't be able to do specific work types.
I myself find it sometimes a bit hard to dig a hole to live in into a mountain.. with nothing but my two hands. ;D
Well, I don't think we need to get too realistic - it's "assumed" that they have various basic tools, and can do many things without the player explicitly equipping them. Mining, construction, wiring, building generators, batteries, etc.
I would see it mainly as "special needs", like weapons, or an "enhancement" type of thing.
Mmm, I see your point.
If you go too far, it will become easily too complex and you loose all the fun in micromanagement.. ???
I strongly object to the mechsuits. see the discusion in its own topic
at best kevlar...
I'm talking about a small scale exoskeleton, like this (http://youtu.be/-9k4oUNHLJs) or this (http://www.military.com/video/logistics-and-supplies/military-equipment/2nd-generation-exoskeleton-robotic-suit/697530357001/). Not a giant robot (http://singularityhub.com/2012/08/04/thats-right-japan-has-created-a-real-life-4-ton-mech-robot/).
The specific of what goes in the slot is not the issue really. These are just examples.
Quote from: Spike on October 09, 2013, 02:44:27 PM
I'm talking about something small scale exoskeleton, like this (http://youtu.be/-9k4oUNHLJs) or a giant robot (http://www.military.com/video/logistics-and-supplies/military-equipment/2nd-generation-exoskeleton-robotic-suit/697530357001/). Not this (http://singularityhub.com/2012/08/04/thats-right-japan-has-created-a-real-life-4-ton-mech-robot/).
But still it feels far off along the technology line. and would be unpayable.
But thats my 2 cents (-:
Quote from: Spike on October 09, 2013, 01:57:05 PM
From watching the videos, we can see that individual colonists have a (currently) limited set of skills, one Childhood backstory, one Adult backstory, and two traits (currently not implemented). We can also see that each colonist can pick up one weapon for combat use. They also have Loyalty, Happiness, and Fear ratings, along with many event-driven bonuses or penalties, such as seeing bodies, having a good meal, or living in cramped quarters.
What I'd like to talk about is how the current setup might be tweaked, with regard to other aspects of the game.
One aspect would be the "Character Inventory". I would suggest two Equipment slots:
Body: Any kind of "suit type addition" of gear, for combat, working or survival need.
- Armor (damage reduction)
- Mech Suits (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=142.0) - with possible different varients, combat or construction.
- Upgraded survival suits if Biome's or vacuum environments are implemented.
Hands: Any type of advanced equipment that would need to be purchased or built in order to get the effect.
- Weapons
- Mining equipment
- Medical equipment
These would of course tie in with any kind of Manufacturing System (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=134.0) that would be put in place, or that would have to be purchased/looted.
I don't see the need to make an overly complicated gear/clothes system that would cover every tiny detail; these two slots would be enough for a bit of diversity in how well your colonists do with regard to how they are equipped. You might have a construction worker equipped with a Construction Mech Suit and a Pneumatic Drill who can chop through rock and build walls with ease - but if you send them into combat next to the person wearing Combat Armor and carrying an Assault Rifle, they will be pretty ineffective (and know it).
Great idea! Totally supporting it!
Quote from: Semmy on October 09, 2013, 02:45:31 PM
Quote from: Spike on October 09, 2013, 02:44:27 PM
I'm talking about something small scale exoskeleton, like this (http://youtu.be/-9k4oUNHLJs) or a giant robot (http://www.military.com/video/logistics-and-supplies/military-equipment/2nd-generation-exoskeleton-robotic-suit/697530357001/). Not this (http://singularityhub.com/2012/08/04/thats-right-japan-has-created-a-real-life-4-ton-mech-robot/).
But still it feels far off along the technology line. and would be unpayable.
But thats my 2 cents (-:
The same argument could be (and has been) made about anything they are building. However, they are the survivors of a spaceship wreck, in a galaxy where the tech level ranges from primitive to transcendent future tech. :)
Regardless, that was only an example of what could go in a possible Body equipment slot, in addition to the current Hands equipment slot. After all, if you play Rock, Paper, Scissors you have 10 possible combinations. If you play Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock, you have, eh, lots more possibilities.
Plus the extra equipment slot brings up the need for that equipment, and thus ties in to research, manufacturing, trading, or looting that equipment.
Mech suits a I am wary of. I like the idea but I am not sure how it will fit in and increase the depth of the game. Tools, weapons, and armors I can get behind though. Mining? Grab a laser pick (if you're tech is substantial enough, lower equivalents available). Doctoring? Grab a laser scalpel/medkit/etc. Defending? Grab a gun or a sword or a grenade. It furthers the gameplay elements in my opinion.
Tynan's mentioned that story is important to RimWorld, and characters are essential to a story. I think one of the best ways for interesting stories to develop is by having a focus on characters. Giving each character their own inventory seems like a crucial element of that focus.
Like other people in the thread have mentioned though, it's important to not make the inventory too complicated. I don't think it needs to be so simple that characters can only have two items, but something like Dwarf Fortress' system would be unnecessarily complicated. Hopefully we could find a happy medium that worked well with the other game systems. Here's one possible slot-based system:
- 2 Hand Slots - Some weapons/objects could require both hands.
- 1 Body Slot - For clothing or armor.
- A few Misc Slots - For other items like medkits or etc. This could be some standard number, or could depend on the body slot item. For example, a bullet proof vest has no space to carry anything extra, whereas a utility vest has lots of pockets and room for tools. The latter adds some depth to player decisions on whether colonists should be more protected but can carry less, or able to haul a lot but vulnerable to attack.
I agree with the people who have said an inventory system would add more depth to RimWorld, but I do think we should carefully consider the implementation and not let it get out of hand. Having too many items or an over-complicated system could do more harm than good.
Agreed, these are great ideas that need to keep coming, but you need to temper it with caution for the extra strain all this will have on the game's system requirements and of course Tynan's time/mental-health lol.
As far as the Mech Suits go, there is a more dedicated thread to discuss their inclusion, but I have always been against the idea of bulky robotic suits similar to those in Avatar being included, or even any mech suit that has an advantage in combat.
I'm not opposed to a skimped-down version more like skeletal reinforcers running along the outside of the player's limbs with the equivalent of a couple of extra gadgets and useful things that make them better at manual labour tasks such as quicker hauling, mining, construction, etc. but no to combat and no to tasks that require precision and care such as farming.
My mech suit would be for extreme floor mopping, the extra power would really help with stubborn stains.
On a serious note if colonists could carry at least two items it would greatly improve tactics. Think of the possibilities with gun+medkit, gun+grenades and so on. This would allow you to plan more complex attacks, no more dedicated medic now he can do combat too or if you have a tight packed group of pirates grenade them but if you miss you still have your trusty side arm.
I was kind of thinking of the Body & Hand slots because it would force you to differentiate a bit between colonists. Want them to be able to fight? Give them a weapon. Want them to be a medic? They carry a medpack - but can't fight, unless they drop it and grab a weapon.
Body slot items would be more of a generic boost in some way - armor to reduce damage, or things necessary if Biomes are added. Maybe some things that would boost certain activities; a Pack of Tools to improve construction & mining, or other types of things.
Since the main focus of the game seems to be on building and defending the colony overall, I don't think the system should be too complicated. For example, I love the old X-Com games, and you had quite a bit of carrying space - but that game was mainly about the combat, where that space was needed.
I have to admit I'm getting a bit worried about the amount of requests for equip-able tools to improve the basic labour tasks, isn't that what research is for? And more importantly the game is going to last for a long while and a few tech/research-tiers, we don't want it reaching the point a fully-researched and equipped lone colonist can clear a mountain rage in two hours.
If we start adding hand-held items other than weapons, there would indeed need to be items for every basic action (mining/building/growing crops/cutting herbs/cleaning blood/cleaning debris/... the list goes on).
If there's no inventory to be had (I actually would rather not), that means that there will be loads of equipment racks needed, with a shitload of tools there, since every colonist can do every action (allow me this shortcut).
Seems like a management hell (as is).
Agreed. I'd rather the items/tools added to the Alpha be only weaponry/combat-based rather than for every little aspect of the game.
In my opinion, held items should be limited, as weapons currently are. Carrying a medkit would let the player direct someone to bandage up someone on the battlefield, instead of simply carrying them to a bed to heal. I wouldn't want to see something way too complex, like needing picks or drills to mine, hammers to build, etc, etc. The basic work should not require any explicit item; however I could see some advanced items that give a substantial boost to work being done. But that's just my opinion. :)
Quote from: British on October 10, 2013, 10:00:37 AM
If we start adding hand-held items other than weapons, there would indeed need to be items for every basic action (mining/building/growing crops/cutting herbs/cleaning blood/cleaning debris/... the list goes on).
Quote from: Spike on October 10, 2013, 10:07:40 AM
In my opinion, held items should be limited, as weapons currently are. Carrying a medkit would let the player direct someone to bandage up someone on the battlefield, instead of simply carrying them to a bed to heal. I wouldn't want to see something way too complex, like needing picks or drills to mine, hammers to build, etc, etc. The basic work should not require any explicit item; however I could see some advanced items that give a substantial boost to work being done. But that's just my opinion. :)
I think Spike has the right idea here. British said inventory means there needs to be item requirements for basic tasks, but I don't think that's the case. Instead, all colonists could perform basic tasks at a default speed/effectiveness, but having specialized equipment could make them perform better. This way players don't have to micromanage everything, and they can make meaningful choices about what equipment to give which colonists. Choices like that add to the depth of the game, and the more depth it has the more interesting the stories will be.
With that being said, it is always important to look at both the advantages and disadvantages of an idea. British, if colonists don't need equipment for basic actions, what other disadvantages would we need to think about for a simple inventory system?
I think the aversion to micromanagement is stifling some of the cool ideas that could be implemented. I mean this is a management style game after all, unless I am missing something.
I like the idea of having the ability to equip armor and equipment besides just basic weapons. You don't need a lot of equipment racks for equipment in that case. You have a tool rack that is just generic and you can pick up tools for mining, building, farming, or other activities. Something similar to that. You won't have to make the tools separately, all you will have to do is make the tool rack/dispenser then it is assumed the tools are there. Unless you want to make the tools separately and I am all for that.
The (potential) problem is not the management, it's the micro-managements (notice the plural).
We're only discussing one component of the game, but there are many others out there being discussed as well, and I'm sure that for a significant part of those, there's some sort of micro-management suggested.
If every single of those components get their ways with adding micro-management (which may well be very fine individually), we will end up with a product bloated with loads of little things to do.
That might be fun for spreadsheets-lovers and such, but RimWorld, the way I understand Tynan wants it to be, is meant to be accessible.
While I may have exaggerated some points, that's how I see things, and that's why I'm always advocating not to go crazy on micro-management.
Tynan probably has an agenda on his own for those details, or maybe even an agenda about having an agenda for those details, but until/unless he gives a full statement on his vision, I'm going to continue my campaign against heavy micro-managements :P
Now back on topic...
I only have a problem with having a full-blown inventory, but having one slot for a weapon and one slot for an armor seems fine to me.
If you add tools for everything and expect them to all fit in one inventory rack, then you'll have to use some sort of menu to access the rack and pick the tool you want.
It's OK when you have a couple tools, but, as I hinted yesterday, if you have one tool for every action *one* colonist can take, then that access menu is going to get fat very soon, and that's not fun.
The way the racks are working now, is that they can only host *one* weapon, so you can see what's in the rack instantly.
Granted, when you get too many weapons, it can get crowded as well, though I don't think it can be compared on the exponentially-growing number of tools as colonists join in.
There's probably ways to go around the problem, of course.
You could for instance have only one accessible unit for each type of tool, so every colonist would ever need to pick that tool... but then, what's the point of having tools ?
Or maybe you could stack each type in a dedicated rack slot and display a number indicating the size of the stack...
Yes, I want to augment my colonists... Yes.
Would be epic sauce.
It would happen that there's already a dedicated thread about colonists (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=177.0)... ain't that epic ?
Quote from: British on October 11, 2013, 05:29:22 AM
It would happen that there's already a dedicated thread about colonists (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=177.0)... ain't that epic ?
Also, we need full blown mechs, like giant walking machines, that'd be bad ass
we could find lost reckage or tech from the space ship that crash landed
yeah sweet
or maybe even survival bunkers we find underground or inside the earth
.
we need mechs and cybernetic implants, exo suits, crazy sci-fi stuff too.
and stuff like cows.
Quote from: British on October 11, 2013, 04:24:22 AM
While I may have exaggerated some points, that's how I see things, and that's why I'm always advocating not to go crazy on micro-management.
Now back on topic...
I only have a problem with having a full-blown inventory, but having one slot for a weapon and one slot for an armor seems fine to me.
If you add tools for everything and expect them to all fit in one inventory rack, then you'll have to use some sort of menu to access the rack and pick the tool you want.
There's probably ways to go around the problem, of course.
I agree. Part of the appeal of the videos is that it looks pretty simple - no need to worry about what tools you have, or needing to build a tool, or have the proper one equipped, in order to build stuff. That type of complexity could easily be abstracted by having different tiers tied to structures.
The way I look at equipment slots is that it should enhance an action, not be required for it. Look at combat - you CAN fight without any weapons... but if you equip something, you enhance your effectiveness. Same concept for other actions. If you would, lets say, equip a medkit then you could heal some damage on the battlefield instead of needing to rest in a bed. Modified action.
As for tool racks in general, that could be abstracted easily to some kind of structure that gives a modifier. Build a Workbench that is described as "being stocked with tools for any purpose", and all construction gets a 10% time/cost bonus. Something like that, versus equipping a colonist with a hammer. Or screwdriver. Or welder. Or pick.
Quote from: Spike on October 11, 2013, 07:08:14 AMAs for tool racks in general, that could be abstracted easily to some kind of structure that gives a modifier. Build a Workbench that is described as "being stocked with tools for any purpose", and all construction gets a 10% time/cost bonus. Something like that, versus equipping a colonist with a hammer. Or screwdriver. Or welder. Or pick.
Although I agree with the idea that an inventory system should be kept simple and straightforward, I think replacing it with structures that give a global bonus might be going to far in the other direction. For instance, in the example Spike described above I would build a room off in a corner somewhere with a bunch of workbenches so that everyone magically gets a big bonus. If we decided to do something like this I think it would be better done with research than structures, i.e. research "laser picks" for more effective mining or etc. That still uses a global bonus system, but without the abusability of associating the bonus with a structure.
As far as Equipment Racks go, it is true that an inventory system would probably necessitate a bit more complexity there. However, I think as long as we implemented a simple interface for them it should still be intuitive for players. As an example, consider an Equipment Rack that holds nine items. Clicking on the rack could display its items. Here's a mock-up (rack image stolen from the wiki, thanks for keeping it updated British et. al):
(http://i.imgur.com/rrQEi05.png)
Does that seem intuitive enough to be used by most of our players?
Quote from: SpaceEatingTrex on October 11, 2013, 07:53:10 AM
Does that seem intuitive enough to be used by most of our players?
I don't know, I won't be playing until next month. :P
That's a good point, Spike ::)
Your example of expansion, SpaceEatingTrex, touches on the "access menu" I discussed in my previous post, so you have my answer already ;)
It really boils down to how Tynan wants set it up, as we all know. And there are benefits either way - I mean, in Dwarf Fortress, you have every aspect of clothing, including penalties (insanity) for not having any, which requires you to set up a full production chain of growing plants, to making thread, to making cloth, to finally making clothes. But part of the appeal to Rimworld that I see is the simplicity of some things like that. Instead of worrying about pants, I can focus on building a colony to house, feed and protect the colonists.
As for weapon management, some text or graphic menu like that would work. I could also see scrapping the current system and adding a larger "Arms Vault" item (area or furniture), where all weapons are stored without regard to space, and then have some system for equipping colonists. Actually, add the weapon slot onto the Overview window, and assigning it from there would work; it would also let you see what they are carrying easily.
I know this hasn't been brought up resently but I think a chapter inventory is pivotal at this point. Especially for a few things.
1: new items needed.
- packaged meals - food on the go. More often than not my guys are tracking across the map and then getting a metal break because it's December and freezing cold and they are starving
- med kit - frozen wastes cut your tie off. Med kit can provide temporary healing until returned to base. Could also provide healing to shot down members of your team in defence of your colony.
2: inventory.
- this all needs to be stored in a small inventory in the pawns data could be a 3x1 thing for med kit, packaged meal if some kind and keys.