Adding gold to so many items as requirements along with the non-stop pursuit of components doesn't add any positive game play aspects for me personally.
Prices of everything in the game are already very high to buy and low to sell. Gold is fairly limited as a resource to mine and components feel like a burden to me to maintain, buy or make in the game. I don't mean a burden to my colony. I mean an eye-rolling, I've completely ceased progressing at any point and now have to rely on the luck of finding them or a trade ship passing by user burden.
Things already aren't "easy" when it comes to developing the colony. That's part of the fun of the game. But now it's become annoyingly and, in my opinion, unnecessarily frustrating.
It might be an unpopular opinion, but after loving and supporting this game for years, this Alpha extinguishes any desire to play the game.
I see components in the inventory of nearly every ground based trade caravan thats visited my colony.
Between that and the deposits Im not seeing the problem you are.
Not gotten far enough to accurately comment on gold yet.
That said, I did get some from a ground based trade caravan which makes me think your just having bad luck with the RNG?
That's the trouble, "bad luck with the RNG" can completely halt your progress in the game. It's very annoying.
My current colony is three seasons old and hasn't seen a stitch of gold. I'm about to devmode some in. As soon as I figure out how to use devmode :)
I'm definitely having the opposite experience. Having genuinely scarce resources is adding a lot of fun challenge to the game for me. I was gold blocked too for some time (I naively sold the bit that I found early on, having not looked at any of the new tech stuff), but ended up finding a vault with a bunch of pirates in cryptosleep. Several of them dropped gold, so there are some alternative sources around.
I'm really enjoying the decisions components are forcing me to make. I'd love to start cranking out power armor / charge weapons, but I also want to keep a reserve of components to rebuild power and defense infrastructure if a go through a rough patch with attacks. It's fun to have some genuine trade-offs to make later in the game!
Yes, I imagine that once you get component production off the ground it's a lot of fun. How many components can a colonist crank out in a day? The component mechanic definitely makes for some entertaining tradeoffs.
I think everyone is just complaining about the *cliff* between "desperately waiting for gold" and "yeehaa off we go!" Or at least I am :)
The only item that you "need" gold for is the multi analyzer. It needs 20. Tynan addressed in a previous thread that he's already planning on likely boosting the availability of gold to buy.
As far as the components go, its merely adding an early limit to the number and speed of tech items you can build. Adding more of a distinct "tier" system of advancement. Later game, it adds steel and time as an ongoing requirement. you're now REQUIRED to have some outside contact, as eventually your colony will run out of steel, and you'll need to trade, smelt, or disassemble mechanoids to get the steel/components.
Complaining about the super high end beds needing gold seems a bit unnecessary...prior to this alpha i had no USE for gold. So it sat around in my stockpiles until i managed to get the right trader...not a very stimulating use for it.
Components are only fun to manage as long as you don't run out. If you realise their value early and build a stockpile it's engaging, but you are stuck if you happen to run out since all the important technology needs components and there are no ready source to get more. If your stove breaks down and you can't repair it, well, tough luck.
As for gold, it's main use it's high market value and beauty. If you sold it to traders, that's fine, but it's main use should be artistic. Statues, floors, tables, just making beautiful impressive rooms for your colonists. Making it the requirement for things needed to progress just feels wrong, gamey.
I really like components. It adds a challenge where the game was sorely lacking one before. Namely, that you could very rapidly build up a colony in no time, and most resources (on a wooded map with some hills at least) were plentiful, easily made in terms of work, and it as mostly just a builder's paradise, or at least one with a lot of raids.
Now, I have to plan ahead and figure out the best tech paths and so on. Tech development of the colony happens at a more natural pace. It feels like I'm mostly surviving and slowly rebuilding, rather than just EZ mode to a futuristic utopia.
In real life, gold, and other precious metals, are commonly used as parts (usually for electrical circuitry) for computers and other high-end machinery. There is actually a serious problem in developing nations where companies buy old circuit boards and pay peasants the equivalent of pennies to melt them down and sift through the slag for the gold and other metals. The people inhale toxic fumes and get megacancer, sadly.
Take a guess at what the "Multi-analyzer" almost-overwhelmingly-likely is. I'll give you three guesses, and the first two don't count.
As for components, the reason they are such a pain in the ass to craft is thus: you are basically attempting to make a highly technical piece of machinery (gears, flywheels, pistons, etc), usually with VERY tight tolerances (in the area of =/- 0.001 millimeters, for some small pieces), on a fucking table with a box of scrap pieces you found buried in the ground.. You are, with very little exaggeration, trying to emulate the development of "interchangable parts" and "machined tolerances" in literally the worst of environments.
For all we know, all the different planets your colonists come from all have difference values for "1 millimeter", and as such, parts from one machine can't work in another, even if they are functionally identical.
The reason components are locked behind such hefty research? Combine the component workbench with the multi-analyzer: you are, effectively, trying to jury-rig a goddamn CNC/metal lathe machine
I'm sorry, but I am really finding all this weeping about gold and components to be borderline hilarious.
I think the gold/component issue is exacerbated by map type. On a flat map there's just not enough deposits, period. Once you exhaust ship chunks and the few little hills a flat map has, you're at the mercy of caravans (1-5 components per if at all) or ships (exceptionally rare now, and only the exotic has gold.) I haven't hit a component wall yet, but I never play anything less than large hills. I'm even frustrated when I don't have a visible plasteel deposit on the map at launch. It is a HUGE drag to develop a colony and hit a vital resource bottleneck.
In that case, you have to plan ahead.
1) Turrets take components every time they break down/get destroyed. So, instead of placing an absolute fuckton of turrets everywhere, place one or two, in tactically superior areas, and make effective use of cover and colonist militias. Use turrets as support for the colonists fire, instead of the main fighting force. Use beaten zones, rough terrain, and flanking and pinning forces effectively.
2) Relatedly, make friends. You can give a faction silver in return for goodwill and (sometimes) military aid when called. This both 1) leads to fewer raids, from fewer factions, and 2) decreases colony wealth, which further lowers the chance of raids. What is the faction-type who's sheer weight of numbers "makes turrets necessary" (/snerk)? Tribals. Who can you get to leave you alone by literally giving them money? Tribals (and outlanders, but outlanders tend to be much more managable). If your relations are high enough (and you are lucky), you can even get some of your friends to come help you fight! At the very least, it will distract the foe, and in some cases, they can even fight off the enemy for you
3) Use alternate methods of production. Those wood-powered stoves and workbenches are there for a reason, folks. Every wood-powered bench is a bench that isn't using components ( I am assuming they don't break down, as they don't require components. I have been playing a colony for a little over 2 years at this point, and my woodstove hasn't broken down once.), which lets you save the components for more vital things.
Quote from: Boston on April 15, 2016, 07:56:12 PM
2) Relatedly, make friends. You can give a faction silver in return for goodwill and (sometimes) military aid when called.
Yes, because 4 blokes armed with Shiv's and pistols are not going to get spanked in the first fire fight.
Do I really need to point out that this is a game, and that as a game it is supposed to be fun? And that sitting and waiting for the caravan that happens to be carrying gold and not doing any expansion (because I've already built everything I can maintain with my existing component stockpile) isn't fun?
Sure, it's realistic. But if I want that level of realism, I'll walk down to the bus stop at 10:05 and wait for the 11am bus.
Quote from: Boston on April 15, 2016, 07:56:12 PM
In that case, you have to plan ahead.
2) Relatedly, make friends. You can give a faction silver in return for goodwill and (sometimes) military aid when called. This both 1) leads to fewer raids, from fewer factions, and 2) decreases colony wealth, which further lowers the chance of raids. What is the faction-type who's sheer weight of numbers "makes turrets necessary" (/snerk)? Tribals. Who can you get to leave you alone by literally giving them money? Tribals (and outlanders, but outlanders tend to be much more managable). If your relations are high enough (and you are lucky), you can even get some of your friends to come help you fight! At the very least, it will distract the foe, and in some cases, they can even fight off the enemy for you
Are you sure about that? I've seen quite a few people saying that increasing the number of friendly factions doesn't reduce raids.. a raid is triggered by the storyteller at milestones or by events and the faction is randomly chosen from amoung the hostile rather than the other way, an even on a faction and if they are hostile its a raid..
Can someone clarify?
The frequency of raids is not affected by who you are friendly with. The *identity* of the raid, though, is. Becoming friendly with tribals will eliminate tribal raids; you'll get attacked by pirates or mechanoids instead. And because tribal raids can number in dozens later in the game it's very important to get good relationships with them before they overwhelm you.
Planning ahead will only get you so far. You need the RNG to bless you with some gold or your colony will, eventually, simply die.
Of course, sometimes you get lucky in other ways. A poison ship part just crashed *inside* my colony perimeter. So I built a few extra turrets, opened the ship up, and laughed as they gunned down the hapless mechanoids inside :)
Including some smidgeon of gold inside the mechanoids would not only make sense (they're pretty high tech, they need gold too, right?), it would also help overcome the bottleneck.
One of the mods has something called the "ore extractor" which greatly enhances the resource aspect of rimworld. Though I think that gameplay element could be done better. Knowing at some point you can start to mine resources - even if it takes a while to get there, gives you a reason to keep going through the stupidity of having to buy everything.
Some maps do not have many hills, and it doesn't make sense for some maps to have them (ie plains) so requiring mining of hills and mountains to even get anywhere shouldn't be a gameplay element in rimworld imo. Makes sense instead to have to dig down, or build production items which obtain elements from the ground.
mechs already give some plasteel and components. Ading gold will be too much. On the other hand, the poison ship giving 10 gold and psychic one 20 will be nice. What i worry about is that if centipedes give 20 gold then a single 1 can give you all u need to build the multi analyzer
So how about a centipede gives you 2 gold instead? If you've killed ten, surely you can scrape together enough gold to build some high tech gear.
I dont think that I ever played a map without ancient ruins, and it gives more than enough gold.
Quote from: Listy on April 15, 2016, 09:05:36 PM
Quote from: Boston on April 15, 2016, 07:56:12 PM
2) Relatedly, make friends. You can give a faction silver in return for goodwill and (sometimes) military aid when called.
Yes, because 4 blokes armed with Shiv's and pistols are not going to get spanked in the first fire fight.
"4 blokes armed with Shiv's" are the perfect distraction for the enemy. better shoot them than me or my turrets. and meanwhile, i rip them a new a-hole
My biggest problem with components is, that there seems to be a limit on how much you can actually build now.
Now let me elaborate a bit on that.
I never had an issue with components so far, mostly because I always buy ALL of them, because I only play on mountainous maps (I think if you're playing flat, you're completely screwed now), and because I usually get a truckload of mechanites to disassemble.
Also I immediately rush for component production ASAP, but that's a different story.
So, I got a pretty big base in the tundra, needing a ridiculous amount of heaters, indoor sun-lamp grow areas and over a dozen wind turbines to keep all of that going. The new cooling effect of overhead mountains doesn't really help with heating that, either.
But now I'm at a point where I get like 3-5 breakdowns each day, and am constantly lacking components, only because I have so many component-filled structures around.
Given that there is a fixed amount of metal coming in, mostly in the form of slag from drop pods, mechanite bodies and maybe dropped weapons and armor that I could smelt in, there is a limit to how many technological things I can keep running at any given time.
I didn't even factor in the decay of armor, since I can usually just salvage some from downed pirates, but still. I need components for firefoam poppers, because I get an electrical explosion every other day. And with a base that drains more than 11.000 watt, I need a lot of stored energy. Rebuilding those poppers all the time is a top priority, so it can get a bit micromanagement-heavy.
So eventually you will hit a certain equilibrium where you are constantly spending all your components just to maintain your current setup, which is funny considering that I'm sitting on a stockpile of like 500+1000 plasteel by now, but have no components or metal to speak of. I also haven't had a ship part crashing down in over a year, and the map is mostly mined dry, so I spend all of my time smelting down trash and turning all my steel into components just to keep things running.
Quote from: Aarkreinsil on April 16, 2016, 02:42:03 AMSo eventually you will hit a certain equilibrium where you are constantly spending all your components just to maintain your current setup, which is funny considering that I'm sitting on a stockpile of like 500+1000 plasteel by now, but have no components or metal to speak of. I also haven't had a ship part crashing down in over a year, and the map is mostly mined dry, so I spend all of my time smelting down trash and turning all my steel into components just to keep things running.
Well, it's always been the case that RNG could screw you over. If you don't get a trader (most/all of them carry components, and some steel), or a big mechanoid raid, over a significant period of time and you've mined out the map then yes you'll reach a point where you'll start to be unable to maintain your existing high-end buildings.
Second is that the introduction of components is the first indication we've seen where you can regress technologically. That's a core element of Rimworld's lore (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pIZyKif0bFbBWten4drrm7kfSSfvBoJPgG9-ywfN8j8/pub), and it adds to the difficulty which Rimworld sorely needed.
It's definitely one of the more frustrating things to be included in the game, and component requirements can be a bit strange (especially when you compare things like heaters to crafted armour), but the introduction of ongoing maintenance caused by wear-and-tear is still a pretty good addition on balance.
Without a question though you've got to beeline to the component crafting bench, and get a skill 10 crafter asap. Relying solely on traders to bring what you need is leaving yourself to the mercy of the RNG. That's never a good idea.
Yeah breakdown happens a bit too often, I guess Tynan will balance that, else big colonies will really become a pain to manage.
Apart from that, I dont really know what all that fuss is about. My 2nd a13 colony, year 3, 9 colonists, sitting well at 75 components, and still some ship parts on the map. I have a component bench, but I dont remember using it even once. And I didnt run out in my first colony either. Buy components every chance you get, and think twice if you really need 50 batteries or that energy park that covers half the map.
Regarding gold, why should mechanoids drop gold? You get gold from the cryptopods in the ancient ruins, if you didnt find any on the map or got some from traders. Most research you need is accessible with the simple or hitech research bench, machining to produce some weapons or armor vests incase raiders only dropped crap, stonecutting, hospital beds etc.. Besides, the research locked behind the multianalyzer is really non-essential, vital monitors, charge rifles, powerarmor, component bench, all nice to haves, but one can do without.
I'd just like to see breakdowns of equipment that isn't even on heavily reduced >.>
"As a player since alpha 1" I'm personally fine with it. I'm glad the progress has been slown down, I think it could be slower to be honest. Also happy gold has more use and DO remember. Computer tech DOES use gold to work properly *motherboards, ect* so it makes massive sense for gold to be used.
Why do people keep telling me to get gold from the cryptopods in ruins, when two of my colonists are armed with survival rifles, the other two with great bows, and none have any armor? My whole interest in getting a component bench going is to make enough weapons and armor that I can actually tackle a crypt without getting killed.
Quote from: Shurp on April 16, 2016, 07:47:02 AM
Why do people keep telling me to get gold from the cryptopods in ruins, when two of my colonists are armed with survival rifles, the other two with great bows, and none have any armor? My whole interest in getting a component bench going is to make enough weapons and armor that I can actually tackle a crypt without getting killed.
Of course you could also be totally gamey about it and set a ridiculous maze of wooden deadfall traps and walls in front of the crypt, crack it open in the right place and then let all the things that come out waltz through your gauntlet of doom.
I'm gonna try playing on a flat map and see how badly I get beaten down by the lack of metals and components now.
Quote from: sadpickle on April 15, 2016, 07:32:21 PM
I think the gold/component issue is exacerbated by map type. On a flat map there's just not enough deposits, period. Once you exhaust ship chunks and the few little hills a flat map has, you're at the mercy of caravans (1-5 components per if at all) or ships (exceptionally rare now, and only the exotic has gold.) I haven't hit a component wall yet, but I never play anything less than large hills. I'm even frustrated when I don't have a visible plasteel deposit on the map at launch. It is a HUGE drag to develop a colony and hit a vital resource bottleneck.
Agreed that this is an issue for the game. The lack of Z levels makes hill-less maps practically useless. Mods have fixed this, but then this is one of those balance issues that shouldn't need to be fixed. Mining below ground should still be possible (via some machine), although with significantly increased labor costs per unit mined.
It would be nice if we had a hidden below-ground map created at game start for mineable goods. Then you could create sonar tech that would reveal that map, and so you could place "mining pits" or some such over an area to receive that mineable good with work. Something like that.
what are these mods that you say balanced it?
I have to say that for me alpha 13 so far has been my worst rimworld experience since i started playing during Alpha 6.
There's just so much unnecessary complexity now that doesn't contribute at all to the gameplay.
Instead of a colony simulator it's just a disaster simulator and micromanagement hell.
Quote from: Shurp on April 15, 2016, 11:23:19 PM
So how about a centipede gives you 2 gold instead? If you've killed ten, surely you can scrape together enough gold to build some high tech gear.
I think if given, the gold should be from disassembly rather than just dropped.
Quote from: Shurp on April 16, 2016, 07:47:02 AM
Why do people keep telling me to get gold from the cryptopods in ruins, when two of my colonists are armed with survival rifles, the other two with great bows, and none have any armor? My whole interest in getting a component bench going is to make enough weapons and armor that I can actually tackle a crypt without getting killed.
I take on cryptopods with around 3 people. Never died as of yet. Unless you get unlucky with centipede's in the crypt, you should be fine.
My current maps has no pods.
And when I decided to give up, I used the dev tools to look around the map. There was like 8 tiles on the entire mountainous map, each in small clusters really deep inside mountains. The time and luck it would have taken to find them would have taken forever.
Sometimes you just get RNG screwed and the game progress stagnates.
As for components.. Well, I see they are there as a pacing mechanic to tug your reins back from time to time. I can't even use autodoors anymore. I think they are a little too scarce so all in all I've found their introduction a bit frustrating. Had more fun without them.
Quote from: Ironvos on April 16, 2016, 09:25:50 AM
I have to say that for me alpha 13 so far has been my worst rimworld experience since i started playing during Alpha 6.
There's just so much unnecessary complexity now that doesn't contribute at all to the gameplay.
Instead of a colony simulator it's just a disaster simulator and micromanagement hell.
Well said.
I don't understand the whole 'git gud' argument, using pure anecdote in lieu of a rounded argument.
Rimworld isn't that hard and no, you aren't 'skilled' because RNG favors you more often than not. Success by the sheer whim of RNG has no bearing on your ability to plan or manage a colony. It doesn't matter how good you are, if your map has no gold and you don't find any on the even-more-rare traders, then you are hard-capped at crappy weapons vs threats that will continue to scale.
- If you don't have alot of compacted machinery and don't luck out with traders, then you simply will not have the components needed to progress far. Period.
- Mechanical failures guarantee that you will need some minimum of excess components in stock for every structure you have that requires components. That means your power is limited, turrets are limited, no substantial use of hydroponics and heating (so you absolutely will not survive in extreme environments).
- It also means small plains maps, which used to be the 'easy' mode, are now near suicidal. It's the highest chance of generating none of the resources you'll need past early game.
- The joy mechanic, while I like it, is a bit much at times. It shares this sort of Gaussian relationship. It's simple in the beginning and trivial in the end when you have everything maxed out. The period where you are struggling to grow, when stargazing, 'wandering' in dangerous territory, and horseshoes are more important for 1/3rd of the day than critical infrastructure? Annoying as hell.
- The component assembly, as presently in vanilla, is pointless. If you're at the point where you have that many components to waste on it, you don't need it. Costing 30 metal per is a great way to run a metal shortage to boot - something I've never really encountered before A13.
I normally don't use many mods that dramatically alter the core experience. A13 has changed that for me.
Case in point:
In the novel Tunnel in the Sky, by Robert Heinlein, which is basically "Rimworld: The Book", with very little hyperbole, the colonization and settlement of far-flung planets are undertaken using literal wagon-trains, pulled by livestock and equipped with roughly 1800s-era-technology.
Why?
Because any technology more advanced that than (meaning, anything the colonies can't make on their own,using anything more complex than a blacksmith forge or a carpentry workshop, so no close-tolerance machined parts, complex electronics, etc) is unsustainable, and relying on it would be detrimental until long-term trade and infrastructure is developed with the "homeworld".
This is in a setting with literal portals (the titular "tunnel in the sky"), stasis fields and Directed Energy Weapons.
A large part of the problem with "vanilla" Rimworld is that, without electricity (for refrigerators), you basically have no food preservation. A serious misstep, in my opinion. In "real life" (and with the mod "Mountain Temp", which I am eagerly awaiting an update for), you could dig down into the soil, build a "root cellar" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_cellar), and keep food refrigerated for almost all year round.
Essentially, parts of Rimworld are very realistic (components, machinery breaking down, disease, etc), and other parts, usually aspects of the game that build off the "realistic" parts (food preservation, temperature, etc), are not. So, you have realistic difficulty, and no realistic workarounds to that. Which is where many people are having issues.
Either the entire game needs to be more "realistic" (aka, machinery breaks down, and needs components, which require a great deal of skill and know-how to be able to make, but there are alternatives that do not require machinery) [which I would almost overwhelmingly prefer], or the entire game needs to be "less realistic" (machinery never breaks down unless attacked, components are not a thing, etc).
We can't have both. When we do, threads like these happen.
This is a game where giant centipedes attack you with miniguns and flamethrowers. Realism? C'mon. Like I said before, if I wanted realism, I'd go down to the bus stop and sit and wait for the 93M.
And Heinlein is simply wrong. Any civilization that has *starships* has a monstrous energy surplus. Simply land one of those on a planet and use the power reactor to run a city with a population of millions. If you want some mining done, aim the engine at the nearest mountain and vaporize the top half.
Quote from: Shurp on April 16, 2016, 08:36:40 PMAnd Heinlein is simply wrong.
You take that back. Heinlein is never wrong. The man is a genius.
I'm being 100% serious (And 50% hyperbolic).
Quote from: Shurp on April 16, 2016, 08:36:40 PM
This is a game where giant centipedes attack you with miniguns and flamethrowers. Realism? C'mon. Like I said before, if I wanted realism, I'd go down to the bus stop and sit and wait for the 93M.
And Heinlein is simply wrong. Any civilization that has *starships* has a monstrous energy surplus. Simply land one of those on a planet and use the power reactor to run a city with a population of millions. If you want some mining done, aim the engine at the nearest mountain and vaporize the top half.
They aren't giant centipedes. They are self-autonomous robots that
look like centipedes (which is actually a very efficient design), and the weapons they have aren't even that noteworthy. We have had infantry-portable flamethrowers for about 100 years, and multiple-barrel automatic weapons for almost as long.
While the idea of a self-aware robot might seem fantastical, it isn't even that weird by today's standards. The AI doesn't even have to be sentient. I, personally, find the idea of Boomrats and Boomalopes to be almost infinitely harder to accept than Mechanoids.
Also, there are no starships in
Tunnel in the Sky at least not any worth mentioning. Transport is accomplished via the portals. Earth was rapidly headed towards a Malthusian collapse until the portals were developed (by accident).
And, you are assuming the starship would be able to land on a planet, much less hold itself together under the effects of gravity. Mass becomes a problem the larger something gets. The only reason we can build ships as large as we do is because they float. A ship, when taken out of the water, will snap in half under its own weight.
Why do you think the ships we see in Rimworld 1) are only owned by massive, interplanetary megacorporations, and 2) don't actually land on the planet, but send down drop pods?
Any ship that can withstand the acceleration to near light speed can handle planetary gravity easily.
(1g * 1yr = 1.0c, less relativistic effects. 12g's gets you up to speed after a month of acceleration)
And if we're going to do realism, how about some situational homosexuality? Five lonely guys stranded on a planet with no women about...
Quote from: Shurp on April 16, 2016, 09:16:44 PM
Any ship that can withstand the acceleration to near light speed can handle planetary gravity easily.
And if we're going to do realism, how about some situational homosexuality? Five lonely guys stranded on a planet with no women about...
Do we know for certain that the starships in Rimworld even approach "near light speed"?. Considering how everyone on a ship is apparently locked into cryosleep, it is unlikely.
As for the situational homosexuality, I am all for it. Talk to Tynan, he is charge of updating the game, which, as I am sure you are aware, is still in Alpha.
Ship landing on the planet notwithstanding, if a ship has a generator strong enough to give that much power, can't they just build the generator on earth, and not the rest of the ship? I mean, if you can make one for the ship...
Also
Quote from: Boston on April 16, 2016, 05:11:44 PM
Either the entire game needs to be more "realistic" (aka, machinery breaks down, and needs components, which require a great deal of skill and know-how to be able to make, but there are alternatives that do not require machinery) [which I would almost overwhelmingly prefer], or the entire game needs to be "less realistic" (machinery never breaks down unless attacked, components are not a thing, etc).
We can't have both. When we do, threads like these happen.
I don't think 'realistic' should be a measuring stick for games. Realistically, speaking, you need more than just shoving wood in a furnace to produce electricity, eating nothing but meat will cause malnutrition. We shouldn't be getting out of orbit on a stick attached to a engine, colonists shouldn't mine, cut plants, build, and so on and so forth with their bare hands, and you'll need to peel corn before eating it, eating corn should leave the middle bit(whatever it's called), and rice is a lot more complicated to grow and harvest. It shouldn't even really grow on anything that's not wet enough(like gravel, or dirt). Also, people don't take a dozen pistol wounds to the chest and live, yet have the torso destroyed by 2, 3 hits from a club, no matter how well made. Leather needs to be cured, wool needs to be spun into threads, and why are we growing mushrooms for textiles? And I don't even know how you shoot the foot off someone hiding behind a sandbag, won't that be completely covered?
Machinery breaking down might be realistic, but at the frequency it does in the game? Sure you might say 'it's a makeshift thing, so breaks down more often', but that's a kind of excuse you can put to practically anything.
I think it's less about realism, and more about the gameplay, how it's balanced, and how it changed.
I'm pretty sure the point of this thread is 'getting a multi-analyzer and researching crafting components is based heavily on RNG, and not fun' and not 'this isn't realistic enough/is too realistic'
Being 'realistic' is good and all, but I feel gameplay should come first.
Anyways, talking about what it'd 'realistically be like' in the rimworld time is rather a moot point. For all we know, by the time we reach there, we might have developed a highly efficient clean energy, and a 100% return recycling tech that makes the only thing we 'lack' space for more people, and everything else is sustainable.
I think the problem is less of
Quote from: Boston on April 16, 2016, 05:11:44 PM
Essentially, parts of Rimworld are very realistic (components, machinery breaking down, disease, etc), and other parts, usually aspects of the game that build off the "realistic" parts (food preservation, temperature, etc), are not. So, you have realistic difficulty, and no realistic workarounds to that. Which is where many people are having issues.
And more of we have certain features, but limited ways to use/get around said feature. And yes, most ideas will probably be based of real-life things, but I feel that's less of a 'needs more realism' and more of us not knowing anything other then our 'real life'.
There could be a construction made of wood and steel that lowers tempratures to say, 5°C, and be unrealistic as heck, but I, at least, would welcome it because it provided a low-tech way to presere food. Of course, there might be people who prefer 'realistic' ways like root cellars or whatever, but it'll work.
Well, I seem to be rambling on, but the point is, I don't think it's the lack of 'realism', but rather, the lack of 'alternatives' that's the problem.
Quote from: Boston on April 16, 2016, 05:11:44 PM
A large part of the problem with "vanilla" Rimworld is that, without electricity (for refrigerators), you basically have no food preservation. A serious misstep, in my opinion. In "real life" (and with the mod "Mountain Temp", which I am eagerly awaiting an update for), you could dig down into the soil, build a "root cellar" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_cellar), and keep food refrigerated for almost all year round.
Only certain kinds of food would need that kind of refrigeration. There are other kinds (cheeses, wines,nuts, certain durable vegetables) that become staples otherwise, along with drying meats and ample use of vinegar. Refrigeration is mostly a quality of life thing. Some things are easier with it, but no way would a colony struggle or die without it.
Quote
Essentially, parts of Rimworld are very realistic (components, machinery breaking down, disease, etc), and other parts, usually aspects of the game that build off the "realistic" parts (food preservation, temperature, etc), are not. So, you have realistic difficulty, and no realistic workarounds to that. Which is where many people are having issues.
The problem is this sort of lazy approach to reality. Alot of people only take this half way. In 'reality', breakdowns are due to poor construction/flaws, negligence, or stress. More importantly, they're constructed so that failure occurs on the parts that are easier to replace, not on the core components that have you scrapping the entire mechanism when it fails.
In real life, resource scarcity is addressed by trade and colonies can compliment each other's needs. In real life, most large animals go into hibernation during the winter. In real life, you can predict the onset of extreme weather events. In real life, you can shield devices from solar radiation. In real life, you can do alot of things that would actually make the game alot easier.
So no, adding random awkward and convoluted obstacles is not 'realistic'. It's just goofy design.
That's really what is at the root of the problem. Not how realistic or unrealistic things are, but how completely inconsistent some of the design choices are. There are things completely fantastic in nature that are easy to accept within the context of the setting, then a bunch of awkward trip-ups because of 'realism' that is anything but.
I myself am pretty happy about the increased difficulty. I've had little issues with components and gold, though that given, my colonies usually crash and burn well before I'd start to need them in mass. ;) If flat maps are now too hard, I'll just skip playing them. And there's always been a hefty bit of RNG. Even so, I find plenty of components on traders more often than not and gold isn't really needed is it, except for the Multi-Analyzer?
Now, this "realism vs fun" thing - it's pretty pointless. These two things aren't mutually exclusive. Making things more fun doesn't mean less realistic and vice versa. In a lot of places, fun and realism might overlap, in other places, not so. But where these places are is totally subjective. Trying to present your own subjective opinion as some kind of an objective truth by wrapping it inside the extremely vague argument of "fun is more important than realism" is just fallacious. Firstly, there's no inherent correlation and secondly, the actual points where more realism is more fun or less fun are different for everyone.
What also frustrates me with the breakdowns, the component madness AND the constant power line explosions is the fact that you have this GODLIKE lvl 20 builder who only builds superior to legendary stuff, but the things he builds break down and explode violently every other minute.
If a total buffoon haphazardly smacks together a ramshackle battery it has the same chance of blowing up in your face as the legendary one right next to it, so maybe that should be adressed, too.
And yes, I must say I actually love the low-tech variants of stuff. The wood-fueled stove or the deadfall traps are nothing short of amazing. I just wish IEDs wouldn't cost components, or else they might be fun to use as well.
I'd also like to play as some kind of low-tech or medieval colony without any electricity and components whatsoever, but when mechanites and power armor clad pirates drop down on you, it's kinda stupid. I mean what do they even try to accomplish there? What is even the point of them besieging you? With the tribals I can kinda get it, they are rather dumb, they have too many people (apparently), and they have a lot to gain from you. Food, clothing, heck even some low-tier guns would be high loot in their eyes.
Why a batallion of power-armor pirates with charge rifles and incendiary launchers comes dropping down on your rundown hovel from frickin orbit, when you have like 2 disabled, 70 year old people with cataracts, asthma and bad backs is far beyond my comprehension.
Tynan isn't the kind of dev to add things because it's "realistic". Like Boston said, it's a mix of realistic and unrealistic, because that's simply not a big consideration in the design process. Components are designed to be a strategic resource that has to be managed carefully, and breakdowns are a constant drain to this strategic resource to keep it relevant even if you manage to keep raiders from ruining half your base. It's fun when it works, and frustrating when it doesn't, but it's just the first iteration and the issues can be corrected.
Quote from: AllenWL on April 16, 2016, 09:46:58 PM
Ship landing on the planet notwithstanding, if a ship has a generator strong enough to give that much power, can't they just build the generator on earth, and not the rest of the ship? I mean, if you can make one for the ship...
Also
Quote from: Boston on April 16, 2016, 05:11:44 PM
Either the entire game needs to be more "realistic" (aka, machinery breaks down, and needs components, which require a great deal of skill and know-how to be able to make, but there are alternatives that do not require machinery) [which I would almost overwhelmingly prefer], or the entire game needs to be "less realistic" (machinery never breaks down unless attacked, components are not a thing, etc).
We can't have both. When we do, threads like these happen.
I don't think 'realistic' should be a measuring stick for games. Realistically, speaking, you need more than just shoving wood in a furnace to produce electricity, eating nothing but meat will cause malnutrition. We shouldn't be getting out of orbit on a stick attached to a engine, colonists shouldn't mine, cut plants, build, and so on and so forth with their bare hands, and you'll need to peel corn before eating it, eating corn should leave the middle bit(whatever it's called), and rice is a lot more complicated to grow and harvest. It shouldn't even really grow on anything that's not wet enough(like gravel, or dirt). Also, people don't take a dozen pistol wounds to the chest and live, yet have the torso destroyed by 2, 3 hits from a club, no matter how well made. Leather needs to be cured, wool needs to be spun into threads, and why are we growing mushrooms for textiles? And I don't even know how you shoot the foot off someone hiding behind a sandbag, won't that be completely covered?
1) It isn't a furnace, it is explicitly labelled as a "fueled generator". Based upon the fuel, it is probably a wood-gas generator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas)
2) Not quite. Eating nothing but
lean meat will cause malnutrition, yes, but eating organ meats, bone marrow and fat will cover almost all of your nutritional needs. Considering how there isn't masses of viscera left over whenever we slaughter animals in-game, we can probably assume the colonists eat that (it would be really wasteful if they didnt)
3) WHich is why I (and many other posters on this forum) have issues with the "build the ship, leave the planet" thing
4) Are you really assuming the colonists are running around smacking trees and rock faces with their bare hands? Considering how there are "axe-sounds" and "pickaxe-sounds", and one of the technologies in earlier alphas was a Pneumatic pick, we can again safely assume the colonists have, at the very least, hand tools. Why we don't see them is for the same reason the colonists don't have legs, hands or necks.
5) A necessary abstraction. Are you really bothered by the fact that there isn't masses of corn husks and corn cobs left over?
6) which is why I don't grow rice
7) WHich is why the Combat Realism mod is so popular
8) There are mods for this, believe me or not. I use them. Not to mention that tanning leather and turning cloth threads aren't particularly difficult. I've done both in real life using tools that I made myself.
9) Genetic engineering. The mushrooms were genetically engineered to produce fine silk fibers. I don't particularly like it, but ..... plausible, especially when compared to freaken boomrats.
10) depending on the caliber of the bullet, and where the gaps between the sandbags are, a bullet might pass right through. Or, you know, the person could leave their foot sticking out of cover by mistake. Shit happens
Quote from: Mathenaut on April 17, 2016, 01:15:49 AM
Only certain kinds of food would need that kind of refrigeration. There are other kinds (cheeses, wines,nuts, certain durable vegetables) that become staples otherwise, along with drying meats and ample use of vinegar. Refrigeration is mostly a quality of life thing. Some things are easier with it, but no way would a colony struggle or die without it.
The problem is this sort of lazy approach to reality. Alot of people only take this half way. In 'reality', breakdowns are due to poor construction/flaws, negligence, or stress. More importantly, they're constructed so that failure occurs on the parts that are easier to replace, not on the core components that have you scrapping the entire mechanism when it fails.
In real life, resource scarcity is addressed by trade and colonies can compliment each other's needs. In real life, most large animals go into hibernation during the winter. In real life, you can predict the onset of extreme weather events. In real life, you can shield devices from solar radiation. In real life, you can do alot of things that would actually make the game alot easier.
So no, adding random awkward and convoluted obstacles is not 'realistic'. It's just goofy design.
That's really what is at the root of the problem. Not how realistic or unrealistic things are, but how completely inconsistent some of the design choices are. There are things completely fantastic in nature that are easy to accept within the context of the setting, then a bunch of awkward trip-ups because of 'realism' that is anything but.
1) Oh, I know that about certain types of food. I just prefer "root cellars" because they are relatively easy to make. In past Alphas, I would use the Mountain Temp mod in conjunction with other mods, like Food Preservation, to store dried meats and vegetables for long periods. I am actually eagerly awaiting both mods to update, so I can
finally play a powerless colony
2) I was assuming that whenever a colonist repaired a broken-down machine, that they were replacing the "easy to replace" bits, not building the whole thing from new? Whenever I had my solar panels/windmill break down, I only saw them actually bring in new components?
Whenever I read "components", I almost automatically assume the term refers to "small gears, springs, pistons, wires, etc", not parts like windmill blades, frames, etc. The small bits that are necessary for functioning, but quite difficult to make without a dedicated facility. You aren't going to be making small. hard-tempered gears with tolerances below +/- 0.01 mm on a blacksmith table. Not without difficulty.
3) I thought most animals will leave the map during "winter", or when there isn't enough food for them? I play on Boreal Forests, and I know that my colonists have to get as much hunting in as possible early in the fall, because usually by the first snowfall, all the "large game" will be gone from the map, and all I see is rabbits and squirrels until spring.
4) Maybe some form of "isolation" for electrical devices could be locked behind research, although I don't think "suspend device in a cage made of foil" is really research-worthy.
5) And I think that those options should be added to the game, to add more "choice". I shouldn't be all-but forced to build generators and powered devices in order for my colony to survive.
Quote from: Boston on April 16, 2016, 05:11:44 PMA large part of the problem with "vanilla" Rimworld is that, without electricity (for refrigerators), you basically have no food preservation. A serious misstep, in my opinion. In "real life" (and with the mod "Mountain Temp", which I am eagerly awaiting an update for), you could dig down into the soil, build a "root cellar" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_cellar), and keep food refrigerated for almost all year round.
Essentially, parts of Rimworld are very realistic (components, machinery breaking down, disease, etc), and other parts, usually aspects of the game that build off the "realistic" parts (food preservation, temperature, etc), are not. So, you have realistic difficulty, and no realistic workarounds to that. Which is where many people are having issues.
Either the entire game needs to be more "realistic" (aka, machinery breaks down, and needs components, which require a great deal of skill and know-how to be able to make, but there are alternatives that do not require machinery) [which I would almost overwhelmingly prefer], or the entire game needs to be "less realistic" (machinery never breaks down unless attacked, components are not a thing, etc).
We can't have both. When we do, threads like these happen.
I sort of agree here. At the very least, Rimworld needs more non-component-based alternatives, pre-info age stuff. Deadfall traps are nice. Smoking meats would also be nice. Some crops decay slowly (corn and taters) so with proper management you can at least live off of those (in a normal biome) until you advance to refrigeration (though currently it's easy to get that started up early with any moderate RNG luck).
Pieces of the game are falling into place, but other pieces are missing, which as you say gives the game a very unbalanced feel. There's more difficulty than there should be over this, because of those missing pieces.
Also the tech levels of opponents should mirror your own. You shouldn't have to face off against mechanoids and space pirates when you can't even field turrets any firearms beyond a survival rifle. The RNG coding should be taking this into account in Cassandra/Phoebe.
On that note, the RNG should be taking your components stock levels, and nearby natural components, into account and providing more traders with them should your availability drop too low.
Dont make light of traps vs mechanoids, the deadfall traps are amazing vs scythers. Up to 60 dmg when the head only has 30 hp, most of the time they just get 1shotted by them.
I think the large gap of Alpha 12 and Alpha 13 has made a lot of Rimworld users realize that the mods they use are actually better than the core game. Alpha 12 with mods is so much better than Alpha 13 core it is not funny, at least for me.
I hadn't played the core game for so long that I was surprised there were so few power options, and that was just the start of it. Just the total lack of items in general, or ability to generate items which the world has ,is a significant problem. You are just reliant on traders for most things which seems weird, like the game is "Wait for trader"world instead of some survival on a planet simulation.
The Alpha 13 interface design is way behind Alpha 12 with mods. No colonist bar? I don't even know how people select each character normally, I struggle in Alpha 13, and even that colonist bar mod isn't the best it could be. No colonist manager? I barely use that mod but it gives you so many options to stop micromanaging everything. Crops are poorly done compared to mods. Storage is extremely, extremely, poorly done compared to mods. Quantum storage mod should be default as should the "deep storage" type mods , as they make the game less laggy too. The whole game is just poorly done compared to mods, it is strange to me.
I think this topic has devolved into something different than the purpose.
The topic is not about "realism vs fantasy."
The topic is about what some view, including myself, as a new facet of the game which relies too heavily on luck. Luck has always been a part of the game. In my opinion, luck in strategy games should never ruin the experience. What's the point of playing a game if your only chance of success has been strangled by what resources you're dealt or how often necessary traders stop by?
Luck should be a component by which, if you don't plan carefully and use strategy, you're more likely to fail. But, as has been said before numerous times, this method of luck makes one rely solely on luck to advance throughout the game.
If this hasn't happened to you, you've been lucky.
Quote from: nuschler22 on April 17, 2016, 02:49:37 PM
I think this topic has devolved into something different than the purpose.
The topic is not about "realism vs fantasy."
The topic is about what some view, including myself, as a new facet of the game which relies too heavily on luck. Luck has always been a part of the game. In my opinion, luck in strategy games should never ruin the experience. What's the point of playing a game if your only chance of success has been strangled by what resources you're dealt or how often necessary traders stop by?
Luck should be a component by which, if you don't plan carefully and use strategy, you're more likely to fail. But, as has been said before numerous times, this method of luck makes one rely solely on luck to advance throughout the game.
If this hasn't happened to you, you've been lucky.
Well I created a suggestion thread which would fix this issue, though I doubt it will be implemented. It is really quite a simple thing to do.
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=18987.0
Quote from: Boston on April 17, 2016, 07:31:39 AM
2) I was assuming that whenever a colonist repaired a broken-down machine, that they were replacing the "easy to replace" bits, not building the whole thing from new? Whenever I had my solar panels/windmill break down, I only saw them actually bring in new components?
Whenever I read "components", I almost automatically assume the term refers to "small gears, springs, pistons, wires, etc", not parts like windmill blades, frames, etc. The small bits that are necessary for functioning, but quite difficult to make without a dedicated facility. You aren't going to be making small. hard-tempered gears with tolerances below +/- 0.01 mm on a blacksmith table. Not without difficulty.
That's the thing, though. The actual base technologies aren't that complex. You don't need tiny gears and sophisticated microchips to generate electricity or even make a solar panel. Those things allow you to make extremely efficient, small, conveniences of them certainly. When your cellphone breaks, it's usually because one of the major parts (case, battery, wiring, memory, etc) has failed under stress or poor design - not because one of the rare earth metals inside of it has disintegrated and you need to mine out new ones.
Quote3) I thought most animals will leave the map during "winter", or when there isn't enough food for them? I play on Boreal Forests, and I know that my colonists have to get as much hunting in as possible early in the fall, because usually by the first snowfall, all the "large game" will be gone from the map, and all I see is rabbits and squirrels until spring.
Even domesticated animals of certain types will undergo hibernation periods. There is no reason for my muffalo to be consuming like it's spring during the dead of winter when they aren't even moving around for much.
Quote4) Maybe some form of "isolation" for electrical devices could be locked behind research, although I don't think "suspend device in a cage made of foil" is really research-worthy.
5) And I think that those options should be added to the game, to add more "choice". I shouldn't be all-but forced to build generators and powered devices in order for my colony to survive.
The theme that Tynan is aiming for isn't something easy to balance. Dystopian frontier sci-fi is a niche theme. Even in games developed around this theme, the trend is always toward how the rare hypertech makes all the difference in the world - if you can get it. There are also opposing cases, where scores of low-end natives outwit people with better technology. Hell, that's happening all across the world right now (though, let's not get too political).
Rimworld has open-ended gameplay and Tynan likes to encourage certain gameplay types while discouraging others. The problem is that there isn't a balance to this. Technology should make a big difference, but be 'difficult to get'.
In the sense that every 'tier' (we essentially have that now: before you can use machinist table, after machinist table but before multi-analyzer, and after-analyzer) needs to be fully rounded and sustainable to a degree (low tech isn't really suitable to extreme environments).
There is also the issue that 'building a colony' and 'trying to get off this rock' are both directions that drive completely different approaches to gameplay. What may be an obstacle/annoyance to one may not be so much to the other.
Tynan also doens't want things so clearly defined that Rimworld begins to follow the template for some random rts. He adds a number of little obstacles (like needs, joy, mood) that complicate efficiency, but imo they are done well enough within the flavor of the game that they mostly (I still think joy is a little heavily done) add to the character of the game.
Components were meant to slow progress in general down, along with the longer time scale, to overall slow the pace of the game. There needs to be more ways to expand laterally (expand around the tier you're presently on) without expanding upward (progressing to a new tier). So people can build larger settlements at low-tech without the game registering it as 'Time to send a power-armor army'.
I think that to balance components there must be low-tech ways to do things: fueled stoves, cellars, traps, torches, so you could get by with it.
These solutions will be less effective, but you will have ways to avoid situations in which all your food spoils due to faulty generator and lack of components. And you will have a choice between "that shiny thingy that will make my life easier and safer but will need maintenance" and "this stone crap that is absolutely inferior but will work forever".
As of A13 it is partially introduced, but it's not enough to balance component demand. You still need coolers to keep food from spoiling, lamps to make your colonists not go insane, hydroponics to survive in harsh conditions and so on, and so forth and some of these are critical to survival so you have to use components and on some maps you get rekt because there is no steel or components left and traders are not coming any time soon.
If low-tech stuff will be fully introduced it will also keep balance because you still will be facing a choice: either you fight centipedes with sticks, stones and suicidal rushes or you find ways to get components to maintain your hi-tech colony.
Generally I think that components are good and challenging, but for now they are rather unbalanced with no workarounds.
The problem there is that it will require more resources. You'll need more than just wood as a resource to burn for fuel if you want to manage a fully low-tech colony. Not exactly an option without coal or something similar. Something you can't directly build with, but can use as a resource.
Quote from: Mathenaut on April 17, 2016, 06:09:51 PM
The problem there is that it will require more resources. You'll need more than just wood as a resource to burn for fuel if you want to manage a fully low-tech colony. Not exactly an option without coal or something similar. Something you can't directly build with, but can use as a resource.
You can make charcoal from wood pretty easily. Look up channel "Primitive technology" on Youtube, there's a video showing the process. To manage a low-tech colony you'll basically need stoves to make food and warm living areas, a smithy to make tools/weapons/armor, stonecutting workshop and some fields to grow crops. Basic resources needed to make it possible are wood, stone and some metal. Wood used as building material, basic fuel and to make charcoal, charcoal to make basic metal stuff, even to make iron tools, though the process is very time consuming and ineffective, and stone to make stoves and workshops.
IMO that should cover all the basic needs: shelter, food and safety. At least for some time before colony can maintain high-tech machinery.
Quote from: RedSchuhart on April 17, 2016, 06:53:18 PM
Quote from: Mathenaut on April 17, 2016, 06:09:51 PM
The problem there is that it will require more resources. You'll need more than just wood as a resource to burn for fuel if you want to manage a fully low-tech colony. Not exactly an option without coal or something similar. Something you can't directly build with, but can use as a resource.
You can make charcoal from wood pretty easily. Look up channel "Primitive technology" on Youtube, there's a video showing the process. To manage a low-tech colony you'll basically need stoves to make food and warm living areas, a smithy to make tools/weapons/armor, stonecutting workshop and some fields to grow crops. Basic resources needed to make it possible are wood, stone and some metal. Wood used as building material, basic fuel and to make charcoal, charcoal to make basic metal stuff, even to make iron tools, though the process is very time consuming and ineffective, and stone to make stoves and workshops.
IMO that should cover all the basic needs: shelter, food and safety. At least for some time before colony can maintain high-tech machinery.
Pretty much. And you wouldn't need to run the smithy all the time, either, so you won't actually need all that much charcoal.
So it would be like if the current fuel smithy worked more efficiently, burning when it was used instead of always.
Quote from: RedSchuhart on April 17, 2016, 06:01:20 PM
I think that to balance components there must be low-tech ways to do things: fueled stoves, cellars, traps, torches, so you could get by with it.
These solutions will be less effective, but you will have ways to avoid situations in which all your food spoils due to faulty generator and lack of components. And you will have a choice between "that shiny thingy that will make my life easier and safer but will need maintenance" and "this stone crap that is absolutely inferior but will work forever".
As of A13 it is partially introduced, but it's not enough to balance component demand. You still need coolers to keep food from spoiling, lamps to make your colonists not go insane, hydroponics to survive in harsh conditions and so on, and so forth and some of these are critical to survival so you have to use components and on some maps you get rekt because there is no steel or components left and traders are not coming any time soon.
If low-tech stuff will be fully introduced it will also keep balance because you still will be facing a choice: either you fight centipedes with sticks, stones and suicidal rushes or you find ways to get components to maintain your hi-tech colony.
Generally I think that components are good and challenging, but for now they are rather unbalanced with no workarounds.
It actually makes sense for nearly everything in the game to be able to be done at the start, just slow and poorly. Research should open up access to "better" stuff, not doing actual basic stuff. There are easy analogs for nearly everything in the game that can be done by hunter and gatherers if they had the information. Root cellars = refridgeration.
The way I see it, and the fun of Rimworld, is that we are landing, nearly raw on a new planet, we have modern information but our tools suck. So we find better and better ways to make the tools by building better and better machines. Research doesn't really fit well into this mindset. In a way, the pawns themselves should be "knowledge banks", and can pass that on to your other colonists, instead of there being research you click, though I know research as a game mechanic is popular. And maybe you can buy "books" to educate colonists too, either way I think it is more realistic that way and adds more flavor to finding that really smart and knowledgeable character who can teach others his knowledge. Adds more to a colonist death too, not only his skills matter but his knowledge and back story. Balances older characters who may be frail and useless in a physical sense but they actually know "stuff".
Coal and many other resources should be in the game too imo.
I like the addition of components as a concept. When I'm in the depths of winter and one of my batteries or hydroponic trays breaks down and I'm out of components, my heart drops. As it should. I imagine my colony's technician, were she more aware, would be shitting bricks at this realization, because it means we might not survive the winter. Same with turrets breaking down with raiders on the horizon, etc.
What I don't like is how trader RNG takes that helplessness to a frustrating extent. In the 2 years of my current colony, I can count on one hand the number of caravans/ships that I was actually glad to see. A giant train of people and pack animals laden with goods, and the vendor screen offers me ... two components and three slaves? Two components and a $4,500 helmet made out of uranium? Some medicine and a $30,000 spear made out of gold? It got to a point where I was praying for mechanoid raids to happen, which completely kills my immersion.
On the subject of "research", I imagine that the escape pods came loaded with encyclopedias, but it still takes time to figure out how to translate academic knowledge of quantum mechanics into building a functional charge rifle -- even when you have the charge rifle schematics right in front of you.
Hmmm, considering the dangerous toys they're playing with, research tables should blow up occasionally :)
Quote from: hoochy on April 18, 2016, 01:17:24 AM
Research doesn't really fit well into this mindset.
Well actually it can be called "research" as a group of actions that you should do before you can actually build something. Like making calculations on, for example, fuel consumption of a generator, it's power output, figuring out how you can build it with materials and tools that you have, then making blueprints for those who will actually build it.
Like in my graduation paper I was given some data on what should my hydraulic classifier produce, then I made calculations of what's happening inside it, what sizes it's sections shoud have to work right, how powerful should an engine be etc., then I made blueprints showing how it should be assembled, installed, what are the tolerances etc.
Those are things that you can't do without when making something more complicated than just stick and stone axe. At the very least you should have blueprints to keep track of what is done and what is not, maybe you can make something small and simple keeping all in your head, but there's no way you can build a geothermal generator without them, or if something is built by someone else you absolutely shoud have blueprints as a way to explain what exactly you want them to make if you want them to make it right.
Quote from: Datajack on April 18, 2016, 03:34:25 AM
I like the addition of components as a concept. When I'm in the depths of winter and one of my batteries or hydroponic trays breaks down and I'm out of components, my heart drops. As it should. I imagine my colony's technician, were she more aware, would be shitting bricks at this realization, because it means we might not survive the winter. Same with turrets breaking down with raiders on the horizon, etc.
Traders certainly have some unusual stuff from what I've seen. The last trader had one component and didn't want anything I offered.
What I don't like is how trader RNG takes that helplessness to a frustrating extent. In the 2 years of my current colony, I can count on one hand the number of caravans/ships that I was actually glad to see. A giant train of people and pack animals laden with goods, and the vendor screen offers me ... two components and three slaves? Two components and a $4,500 helmet made out of uranium? Some medicine and a $30,000 spear made out of gold? It got to a point where I was praying for mechanoid raids to happen, which completely kills my immersion.
Traders certainly have some unusual items. The last trader had one component and didn't want much of what I had.
Quote from: RedSchuhart on April 18, 2016, 04:04:52 PM
Quote from: hoochy on April 18, 2016, 01:17:24 AM
Research doesn't really fit well into this mindset.
Well actually it can be called "research" as a group of actions that you should do before you can actually build something. Like making calculations on, for example, fuel consumption of a generator, it's power output, figuring out how you can build it with materials and tools that you have, then making blueprints for those who will actually build it.
Like in my graduation paper I was given some data on what should my hydraulic classifier produce, then I made calculations of what's happening inside it, what sizes it's sections shoud have to work right, how powerful should an engine be etc., then I made blueprints showing how it should be assembled, installed, what are the tolerances etc.
Those are things that you can't do without when making something more complicated than just stick and stone axe. At the very least you should have blueprints to keep track of what is done and what is not, maybe you can make something small and simple keeping all in your head, but there's no way you can build a geothermal generator without them, or if something is built by someone else you absolutely shoud have blueprints as a way to explain what exactly you want them to make if you want them to make it right.
I really feel like "knowledge" should be part of what pawns provide - and since it is 2016 special participation time, we should let everyone be equal in what they are able to learn! Maybe just the intelligence of the pawn controls how fast they learn things, and intelligence is at least a semi fixed pawn trait. So instead of sending a pawn to a research station you send a pawn to the "Teaching room" and have a teacher teach others. Otherwise when your crippled, frail, cataract'd professor dude falls over eating his simple meal and hits his head, or gets stabbed in the back during a prisoner escape you won't be able to build that nuclear reactor anymore. ;)
This is an interesting game dynamic, because what you are able to create is not based on "you" the game player any more, it is based on the pawns on the map that actually have to build that thing, which seems to have a better connection to the world. All buildings should be visible in the interface, but the ones you can't build due to lack of knowledge should just simply say "no colonist with required knowledge to build this exists".
Let the tribals come, my first gold in source was smelting down a golden spear, amd it gave me 700 gold because of the weight.
I've been playing since around Alpha 3 as well, and to be honest, I feel like having more finite resources and components actually makes the game so much more fun. Back then it was a mad rush to have power and turrets and then... that was it. Sustainability was easy, and it became more of a tower defence game than a survival sandbox.
Now you need rare metals for advanced equipment and actual working parts that can break down and need to be replaced. It now feels like you're surviving rather than defending. But that's just my 2 pence worth.
Quote from: Nictis on April 20, 2016, 05:53:33 AM
Let the tribals come, my first gold in source was smelting down a golden spear, amd it gave me 700 gold because of the weight.
As much as I love this, I think balance-wise we need to stop seeing small-stuff weapons in tribal raids. Uranium shivs I can sort-of understand, but the gold/silver spears and maces are absurd.
Anyway, I've been shamelessly dev-moding trade ships when I run out of space for raid loot, and I was struggling with components before I got a trade ship. Now I'm double my bottom limit (60 components just lying around for breakdowns). I think when Tynan balances the frequency and we get trade ships regularly again, most of the component headaches will go away. Even on a mountain map my main source is traders.
Quote from: RedSchuhart on April 18, 2016, 04:04:52 PM
Well actually it can be called "research" as a group of actions that you should do before you can actually build something. Like making calculations on, for example, fuel consumption of a generator, it's power output, figuring out how you can build it with materials and tools that you have, then making blueprints for those who will actually build it.
Essentially, this. People are approaching this from the early-civ game approach of literally-no-exposure-to-the-concept and research as a discovery process. It's not. It's more about engineering.
Alot of the things being built aren't even all that complex by modern standards, not to mention 3000 years from now. Alot of this is core-curriculum for general education, nevermind what actual engineers could pull off.
at this point it's so bad even playing with mods i give myself all the gold i ever expect to use (for nice beds) and plan on never finding any naturally, components on the other hand? i've got those for days.
gold though? ah heck no, that stuff is rarer than unobtanium in fact most of the time there's none available on the map from what i remember hearing.
There are only two realistic sources of gold:
1) Trade -- but you have to mod trade back to being useful, and
2) Vaults. Spacers carry gold for no obvious reason.
Once you fix trade, a13 is actually fun to play.
Quote from: Shurp on April 30, 2016, 07:37:30 PM
There are only two realistic sources of gold:
1) Trade -- but you have to mod trade back to being useful, and
2) Vaults. Spacers carry gold for no obvious reason.
Once you fix trade, a13 is actually fun to play.
good to know thanks, had already fixed it in another way with the prepare carefully mod, surely it has to be available as an ore too though? at least in theory even?
Quote from: Too-DAMN-Much on April 30, 2016, 08:38:50 PM
good to know thanks, had already fixed it in another way with the prepare carefully mod, surely it has to be available as an ore too though? at least in theory even?
In theory you can find gold on the map to mine. But it turns up only on about 10% of the maps I've played.
Of course, once you fix trade, an orbital exotic goods trader will show up with 30 components, and you won't *need* to build a component manufacturing bench anyway!
Quote from: Shurp on May 01, 2016, 06:37:28 AM
Quote from: Too-DAMN-Much on April 30, 2016, 08:38:50 PM
good to know thanks, had already fixed it in another way with the prepare carefully mod, surely it has to be available as an ore too though? at least in theory even?
In theory you can find gold on the map to mine. But it turns up only on about 10% of the maps I've played.
Of course, once you fix trade, an orbital exotic goods trader will show up with 30 components, and you won't *need* to build a component manufacturing bench anyway!
actually components i haven't minded yet once, i usually mine any ore veins nearby the colony early on so the crashed ship parts eventually get to the point i'm not concerned for months on end.
Quote from: Shurp on April 30, 2016, 07:37:30 PM
1) Trade -- but you have to mod trade back to being useful, and
I'm still getting my gold and stuff from traders, and I haven't modded the game. What am I doing wrong ?
you're being way more patient. And the RNG likes you. I like to build and I get bored if my colonists are just sitting around waiting for the trade caravan to show up before they can build anything more.