It seems currently that if you have a map that has more hills or mountains you are at a massive advantage compared to those that have less. The reason is that you can find valuable resources, for free essentially, in the mountains and hills. This concept of digging away mountains and hills, making tunnels and caves, etc, is fun, do not get me wrong. But there should be a way to get minerals from the ground also.
This isn't a z-level thing, well it kinda is but it is a very cheap z-level thing, it is quite a minor tweak Tyrian could make to the game to make it a lot more enjoyable. Upon map creation each tile on the map is given a resource amount. Much in the same way you can often see "resource veins" in the side of mountains, where there is a decent amount of a resource on the map the ground show some differences. So if there is an abundance of "steel ore" in the ground, it will show you visually. Much like how it would be in real life if you discovered a massive iron ore or bauxite deposit, it often is visually seen from the ground.
To get resources from the ground you would need to build a mining production building. I figure you could have a "fueled" one to start with, later getting to electric, perhaps the "Fueled" one even requires a pawn to be using it like a crafting table. You could also add research, so first generation miners can only "dig so deep", to extract minerals. So instead of there simply being "X steel ore" at location "0,0" on the map there are layers to the amount of resources in a tile, the higher your tech level the better your ability to extract all the ore at a particular location. This also opens up the possibility that there are hidden veins of resources on the map that you will only find out about later once you have that tech.
Another method to get minerals could literally be "mining" a tile, so you send a pawn to a rich deposit that is visible from the ground and tell him to "Mine that" much the same way he mines mountains or hills.
So the stuff that is visually seen on the map, like "oh there is a resource deposit here" could just be the easiest stuff to extract. The harder stuff to extract (which should be more plentiful as it would then scale to the late game requirements of increased resource usage) could either be a lottery, ie you just plant down a building and extract all resources from that area. Or you open up the possibility of a way to mineral search on the map ,perhaps with a new building, much like miners do today. Pawns with high "Mining" skill could perhaps be given the potential to give a bit more info about a tile they are on.
So in conclusion I propose adding "resources" to every tile on the map, that can be accessed by "mining the ground". This adds a a new fun layer to Rimworld that is more realistic, and in turn it makes every map type viable for self sufficient colonies.
1) This mining addition/change would make every map viable, though still vastly different. A new gameplay layer to uncover, resulting in more fun. No more need for hills and mountains on a map to make it playable.
2) All of these things can be tweaked exactly as required for the "Story telling" aspect and for gameplay as it is just numbers, so will not break Tyrian's vision at all. It is simply an inground representation of the "above ground" mining currently in the game, with a bit more fun.
3) It is extremely simple to add this to existing game, I believe it is even possible to mod this in currently with C# hacking. It will not add much, if any overhead to the game, whilst vastly increasing its fun and ability to play any map without relying on "outside" traders to work.
Quarry's would be a good alternative to mines, acting akin to Growing Zones in that you zone an area that gets 'dug' up by the pawns giving both chunks and ores.
Once Dug, something needs to happen to the ground for a tradeoff, preventing building or just crop etc..
There have been some good mods with this kind of thing.
You'd get some spots on the map that looked like the steam geysers, and then you could place mines on there.
They'd need lots of power and maintenance work, some even need to be manned constantly, but you'd get a steady supply of metal that way.
I really want to play on an open map again, but with the advent of components, I don't quite see that happening anytime soon. Even buying steel by the thousands is not enough now.
I dont quite get why Rimworld doesnt haves the z-levels, even a game with such advanced graphics as a FortressCraft runs them just fine. Extremely sloppily optimized code?
Quote from: paShadoWnSmurf1 on April 16, 2016, 06:25:18 AM
I dont quite get why Rimworld doesnt haves the z-levels, even a game with such advanced graphics as a FortressCraft runs them just fine. Extremely sloppily optimized code?
Advanced Graphics? FortressCraft? Those two things don't belong in the same sentence..
As for not having Z-levels, thats a choice Tynan has made and is sticking to.. If you don't like it, don't play the game.
As for the OP, that is what mods are for.. There are plenty that allow you to setup several quarry type buildings.
Quote from: Plasmatic on April 16, 2016, 06:48:00 AM
As for the OP, that is what mods are for.. There are plenty that allow you to setup several quarry type buildings.
If we go by that logic, Tynan might as well stop developing the game and let the rest be done by modders, huh?
It's just that mods, especially mods that are in high demand, can show some things that people are lacking with the vanilla version, or show you ways of implementing them. For example, weaponsmithing and tailoring have been modded in before that was even a thing in vanilla, because people wanted to craft their own items.
This is the suggestions board for a reason, and while it's true that we don't need Z-Levels to "Fix mining", just going around and telling people to mod things in if they don't like vanilla is not really helping anyone.
There really should be an incentive for playing on open, flat maps, and resource extraction spots for mid to late game might be just the thing.
Well, I am aware that the likelihood of my suggestion being added to the game is somewhere approaching 0%. :) But I thought it may be good to put it out there to help Tyrian/Rimworld.
I implemented a similar feature in one of my games and it really added depth to it I thought. I think I may mod this feature in just for my own amusement. I played Alpha 13 (base) for 8 hours and while Rimworld has always been a good game since I started playing (alpha 12), for me at least it doesn't compare to how it is with certain mods. It is almost like two completely different games, and if Alpha 12 with mods was out there and called "Blimworld" I wouldn't bother playing Rimworld anymore I do not think. But this is just my opinion and I know everyone has a different one. The base game is just so limited in scope, I've never played a game where the mods themselves blew the actual game content away so easily and made the base game nearly unplayable.
I guess we have to thank the fact it is a unity/c# based game because most of those mods wouldn't exist with a typical native binary game unless the source was released.
Quote from: Aarkreinsil on April 16, 2016, 06:54:09 AM
Quote from: Plasmatic on April 16, 2016, 06:48:00 AM
As for the OP, that is what mods are for.. There are plenty that allow you to setup several quarry type buildings.
If we go by that logic, Tynan might as well stop developing the game and let the rest be done by modders, huh?
It's just that mods, especially mods that are in high demand, can show some things that people are lacking with the vanilla version, or show you ways of implementing them. For example, weaponsmithing and tailoring have been modded in before that was even a thing in vanilla, because people wanted to craft their own items.
This is the suggestions board for a reason, and while it's true that we don't need Z-Levels to "Fix mining", just going around and telling people to mod things in if they don't like vanilla is not really helping anyone.
There really should be an incentive for playing on open, flat maps, and resource extraction spots for mid to late game might be just the thing.
I've played the mod with ore extractor, is there a mod with a closer idea of mining as in my post? The ore extractor can be placed anywhere, and you can select the resource you want mined. Every X ticks it gives you X resources. Whilst this makes the game playable on non mountain maps, it is a bit of a cheat too. The idea of certain resources being in certain tiles in a non renewable but potentially large way, and it having to be "found" like treasure, adds enjoyment to the game, and I haven't seen a mod like that. If you know one I would appreciate the link! Thanks.
All "hills" and "mountains" are basically just impassable minable buildings.
I think an easier implementation is to just add passable minable buildings in open areas to the world gen.
Adding patches of stoney terrain where they would be placed would even be a good balance as that would be a trade off between extra minable ores and farmable land.
Quote from: paShadoWnSmurf1 on April 16, 2016, 06:25:18 AM
I dont quite get why Rimworld doesnt haves the z-levels, even a game with such advanced graphics as a FortressCraft runs them just fine. Extremely sloppily optimized code?
The game loos good without z levels.
However i agree that we should be able to place some mining tunnels on the ground.
Colonists could enter them, remain "inside" for X time and then leave with some ores/stone.
The ore and stone chances could be based on map settings.
The problem isn't mining, the problem is how the game is balanced in A13.
Because Gold and Components are additional bottlenecks ONTOP of traders being ridiculously rare, one of the simplest and easiest scenarios to play (small map plains) is now near suicidal.
Even with mountains, you're still at the mercy of RNG to give you something to work with.
Quote from: Mathenaut on April 16, 2016, 04:47:38 PM
... traders being ridiculously rare...
Are talking about space traders?
Because ground based traders are not even remotely rare for me. They are quite frequent.
What is the faction situation for you?
Quote from: hoochy on April 15, 2016, 10:48:17 PM
It seems currently that if you have a map that has more hills or mountains you are at a massive advantage compared to those that have less.
I'll double that, these must be a way to get resources from underground. Either this or flat maps will be tough to play due to limited amount of resources and constant need for components. Though in late game when you have a legendary artist you can buy components easily they still come in very limited amounts and when you dig out every bit of steel you pretty much will get PWND by tribals and bugs suicide-spamming your colony, destroying your turrets and leaving you without components to even maintain your generators.
Though I think Z-levels will make game much, MUCH better. And I still hope Tynan will add them, though it's unlikely. IMHO modern PCs can handle the load of additional 2-5 levels at least.
Quote from: erdrik on April 16, 2016, 05:25:06 PM
Are talking about space traders?
Because ground based traders are not even remotely rare for me. They are quite frequent.
What is the faction situation for you?
One tribe, one outlander, two pirates. When ground traders do come, they're pithy little things that don't offer anything useful (a few components maybe) and have no silver to buy much. It is absolutely nothing to offset the resource cache that hills and mountains bring.
Quote from: hoochy on April 16, 2016, 11:21:37 AM
I've played the mod with ore extractor, is there a mod with a closer idea of mining as in my post? The ore extractor can be placed anywhere, and you can select the resource you want mined. Every X ticks it gives you X resources. Whilst this makes the game playable on non mountain maps, it is a bit of a cheat too. The idea of certain resources being in certain tiles in a non renewable but potentially large way, and it having to be "found" like treasure, adds enjoyment to the game, and I haven't seen a mod like that. If you know one I would appreciate the link! Thanks.
I originally used the M-Co Deep Driller, but the mod author stopped developing the mod. I LOVED it for having those geyser-like spots on the map that you could place your drill on, and you also had to consistently produce and replace drill bits for the machine. You could also add some components to the drill that would allow you do "dig deeper" and get things like gold. You could also make more advanced drill bits that required a higher crafting level but lasted longer, that kind of thing.
Now this mod here hasn't been updated for A13, but it looks similar, it even uses the same drill bit sprites that the deep driller had, and also incorporates the specific spots on the map that you can place mines on.
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=8902.0
I haven't tried it out myself yet, though.
Quote from: Mathenaut on April 16, 2016, 04:47:38 PM
The problem isn't mining, the problem is how the game is balanced in A13.
Because Gold and Components are additional bottlenecks ONTOP of traders being ridiculously rare, one of the simplest and easiest scenarios to play (small map plains) is now near suicidal.
Even with mountains, you're still at the mercy of RNG to give you something to work with.
I'm not sure how you can say the problem isn't mining. There is nearly no mining on some maps, versus lots of mining on some maps. Since mining is so important to actual game play, and fun, I'm not sure why you think requiring only mountain maps to play is the way to go?
You need to allow mining in the regular ground also if you want to balance any aspect of this game. Otherwise the only reason for choosing a plains is to see if you can survive purely through trading. I'm not sure reducing game options, and gameplay, is necessarily a good thing but maybe you have a good argument for it?
There are non resource reasons for wanting to mine into a mountain, it provides a roof, and should have better temperature control than a constructed roof. Why should resources only be found in a mountain though? They aren't in real life. Even though this game is never going to replicate everything in real life, I'm not sure how adding a gameplay balancing aspect to the game, which is relatively easy and could be done in a day or two, is a bad thing. But it is just my opinion.
Quote from: Aarkreinsil on April 17, 2016, 04:59:16 AMI originally used the M-Co Deep Driller, but the mod author stopped developing the mod. I LOVED it for having those geyser-like spots on the map that you could place your drill on, and you also had to consistently produce and replace drill bits for the machine. You could also add some components to the drill that would allow you do "dig deeper" and get things like gold. You could also make more advanced drill bits that required a higher crafting level but lasted longer, that kind of thing.
Now this mod here hasn't been updated for A13, but it looks similar, it even uses the same drill bit sprites that the deep driller had, and also incorporates the specific spots on the map that you can place mines on.
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=8902.0
I haven't tried it out myself yet, though.
Yeah that seems a little better than the ore extractor. However both the mods are just "find anything in any location" at least from what I can tell? You need to set resources on map creation, for each layer that a "Drill technology" can hit, and some tiles should have more than just one resource, just like in real life.
It is quite easy to do this, you could simply do it by adding 64bits to each tile for each layer, since it is rarely used memory it won't have much impact on the game at all. 32bits of that could specify up to 32 resources found in that layer, and the last 32bits could be a float value that specifies the richness of the deposit. It doesn't have to be done this way, but it is just a simple, low memory way to do it.
To give you some perspective, if we had 10 layers of mining underground, and you needed 10 levels of drill technology to get to the bottom, it would only cost 3.2MB of additional memory usage on a 200x200 map. And pretty much near zero CPU usage to do it, as the memory would be rarely accessed. This is why I offered it as a suggestion, because it is actually fairly easy to do , barely adds any CPU or memory usage and would greatly balance the game.
Quote from: Mathenaut on April 17, 2016, 12:48:17 AM
Quote from: erdrik on April 16, 2016, 05:25:06 PM
Are talking about space traders?
Because ground based traders are not even remotely rare for me. They are quite frequent.
What is the faction situation for you?
One tribe, one outlander, two pirates. When ground traders do come, they're pithy little things that don't offer anything useful (a few components maybe) and have no silver to buy much. It is absolutely nothing to offset the resource cache that hills and mountains bring.
Yes exactly. I was on a half mountain map and still am running into massive problems with resources. Because Rimworld offers you zero way to get these extra resources, besides traders, the game just falls completely flat.
The game shouldn't reduce your ability at any point to choose a path, whether short term or long term, to fix the current problems you are facing. At the moment it is just a dice roll every so often as to whether you will get a trader or not. While this can be enjoyable on occasion, requiring the game to be played this way is a bit silly when you look at all the other options the game gives you.
Is it Rimworld, or "How long can you survive until a trader turns up"world. Why allow the user to do anything if this is basically the game? There should be no production buildings, just lots of pawn management until a trader turns up to save the day? Like The Sims, maybe.
Quote from: DarknessEyes on April 16, 2016, 12:26:21 PM
Quote from: paShadoWnSmurf1 on April 16, 2016, 06:25:18 AM
I dont quite get why Rimworld doesnt haves the z-levels, even a game with such advanced graphics as a FortressCraft runs them just fine. Extremely sloppily optimized code?
The game loos good without z levels.
However i agree that we should be able to place some mining tunnels on the ground.
Colonists could enter them, remain "inside" for X time and then leave with some ores/stone.
The ore and stone chances could be based on map settings.
"Real Z levels" I don't think should be done in the current Rimworld framework. The current game lags very badly on even good PC's because of its poor multithreaded design. And I don't mean on normal speed, I mean on 3x speed, which is the only speed I play except battles. I don't know why anyone would play normally on 1x speed, the game must take forever, it already takes so long to do pretty much anything on 3x speed. I feel like the 3x speed should nearly be the default speed, maybe 2x should be default, 3x fast and 4x faster. Maybe I am a minority but who really uses 1x speed except for battles?
Either way I can completely understand Tyrian's lack of want to do real Z levels, the framework (unity) he used is just not up to the task to do it. And given how good the game is already, what is his monetary reward for adding Z levels anyhow? He should just release Rimworld as is on Steam, quadruple the money he has already made and do Rimworld 2 on a new framework imo, if he is motivated to do it. I bought two licenses for this game already, but I must have put over 200 hours of game time into it. Mostly with mods, the core game isn't as fun and that should be a good indicator to him that he can make a lot more money with the right framework for Rimworld 2. Being a developer I know that burnout is a "real thing" though, so he may not want to do a sequel. Like I said it is just my opinion.
Quote from: hoochy on April 17, 2016, 11:32:15 AM
I'm not sure why you think requiring only mountain maps to play is the way to go?
Exactly the opposite.
That's the problem. It didn't used to be that way. It is now.
The way A13 is balanced, resources primarily found in mining are bottlenecks. So you are screwed without mining. Used to be better when you could trade, but that's even worse now than before.
Quote from: Mathenaut on April 17, 2016, 01:23:34 PM
Quote from: hoochy on April 17, 2016, 11:32:15 AM
I'm not sure why you think requiring only mountain maps to play is the way to go?
Exactly the opposite.
That's the problem. It didn't used to be that way. It is now.
The way A13 is balanced, resources primarily found in mining are bottlenecks. So you are screwed without mining. Used to be better when you could trade, but that's even worse now than before.
Even if you increase traders, how is this a positive move? It seems you open up gameplay options by increasing the ability to create or mine whatever the "Rimworld" universe has, rather than push it to "waiting for a trader". You can already do the "waiting for a trader" game right now, you can't do the game I stated.
Traders were supposed to be a factor to balance out the RNG dependence. Because they have been nerved, A13 is even more heavily dependent on RNG than ever before.
Essentially, non-mountain maps need some kind of non-trade access to resources, or traders need to be made viable again.
Quote from: Mathenaut on April 17, 2016, 02:13:25 PM
Traders were supposed to be a factor to balance out the RNG dependence. Because they have been nerved, A13 is even more heavily dependent on RNG than ever before.
Essentially, non-mountain maps need some kind of non-trade access to resources, or traders need to be made viable again.
Sure, or you could actually balance the part that matters, resources on the map. :)
I mean even if you implement the ideas I stated, you can still choose a map that has little of that, or requires you to break through ice to get it, and hence requires you to rely on traders. There is nothing stopping that with my idea. All my idea does is open the game up for more options, I don't see how that is bad, I also don't understand why resources are only found in "mountains" and "hills" in Rimworld, especially when it has map types which don't feature that terrain much.
From a development standpoint the way Rimworld has developed makes sense, but from a gameplay perspective the way mining works in Rimworld does not make much sense.