Trying to put down an animal that was hurt and my "8" shooting rated colonist missed about 10 times straight from 1 square away with a shotgun.
Welcome to Rimworld, where your colonists can be hilariously, ridiculously incompetent
Did they have an eye scar from a fist fight? Half my colonists get them, it cripples their shooting accuracy.
Quote from: Boston on April 18, 2016, 03:36:59 PM
Welcome to Rimworld, where your colonists can be hilariously, ridiculously incompetent
This Alpha seems much worse than before. Colonists with about 5 rating or better use to be at least competent. It greatly ruins the experience.
Quote from: Boston on April 18, 2016, 03:36:59 PM
Welcome to Rimworld, where your colonists can be hilariously, ridiculously incompetent
Just like in the real world.
Because of the math with shooting, small factors multiply excessively over range. This is part of why the quality of weapons makes such a big difference.
AI also likes to make your colonists hunt at maximum range (least accuracy), so you may want to move them closer manually.
Quote from: Kraehe on April 18, 2016, 03:39:31 PM
Quote from: Boston on April 18, 2016, 03:36:59 PM
Welcome to Rimworld, where your colonists can be hilariously, ridiculously incompetent
Just like in the real world.
Not quite.
A large reason firearms eventually became the weapon of choice of soldiers and hunters is because they are
easy to use. Much easier than bows.
The skills rate on a scale from 1-20. Firearms should be effectively used once the character reaches level 5. Bows and other primitive weapons should be effectively used once the character reaches level 10. "Effectively", in this case, means "able to hit the target if they are standing still outside of cover, within the base range of the weapon". Moving targets, targets in cover, and targets targets far away.
A character (skill 4 "Amateur") equipped with a survival rifle (37 range), should be expected to be able to hit a human-sized target 30 squares away, so long as they are standing still and not in cover,
with every shot. If a 12-year-old Boy Scout with a .22LR can get 5 shots inside of a quarter on a 25 yard target, after never picking up a rifle before, then you should be able to nail a human-sized target at 30 yards, no problem
Also, there shouldn't really be a thing where a character misses with
any ranged weapon at point-blank range.
Anyone who thinks it's a realistic for even the worst of shooters to miss over and over at close range with a shotgun (especially with buckshot) has never fired a shotgun.
I don't know if I've ever seen anyone miss a target with a shotgun from six feet or less away. And I've seen a lot of shooting by a lot of bad shooters.
Once again, I was one square away. So, the very next square. Not one square between. So no distance to complicate the matters (game math wise).
Quote from: nuschler22 on April 18, 2016, 04:05:43 PM
Anyone who thinks it's a realistic for even the worst of shooters to miss over and over at close range with a shotgun (especially with buckshot) has never fired a shotgun.
I don't know if I've ever seen anyone miss a target with a shotgun from six feet or less away. And I've seen a lot of shooting by a lot of bad shooters.
Once again, I was one square away. So, the very next square. Not one square between. So no distance to complicate the matters (game math wise).
LOL well let me tell you a story about my brother! This is about 25 years ago so he was like 19 and I was 17 . He had a I think 8 shot pump shotgun. We also had a St Bernard dog in a fence with a 4x4x4 ft dog box in the middle . Rats moved in under that dog box and stole all his "kibble" so I asked him to push the dog box over and id start pounding them with a flat head shovel.
He says no , I should push it over and he'll get his shotgun. So I push it over and jump back . There was a 4x4 ft x 8 inch high completely packed volume of rats that lived under the dog box. From "one square away" about 5 feet away BOOM click click BOOM click click BOOM click click BOOM click click BOOM click click BOOM click click BOOM click click BOOM
. There wasn't a single dead rat .
Quote from: RazorHed on April 18, 2016, 04:25:23 PM
Quote from: nuschler22 on April 18, 2016, 04:05:43 PM
Anyone who thinks it's a realistic for even the worst of shooters to miss over and over at close range with a shotgun (especially with buckshot) has never fired a shotgun.
I don't know if I've ever seen anyone miss a target with a shotgun from six feet or less away. And I've seen a lot of shooting by a lot of bad shooters.
Once again, I was one square away. So, the very next square. Not one square between. So no distance to complicate the matters (game math wise).
LOL well let me tell you a story about my brother! This is about 25 years ago so he was like 19 and I was 17 . He had a I think 8 shot pump shotgun. We also had a St Bernard dog in a fence with a 4x4x4 ft dog box in the middle . Rats moved in under that dog box and stole all his "kibble" so I asked him to push the dog box over and id start pounding them with a flat head shovel.
He says no , I should push it over and he'll get his shotgun. So I push it over and jump back . There was a 4x4 ft x 8 inch high completely packed volume of rats that lived under the dog box. From "one square away" about 5 feet away BOOM click click BOOM click click BOOM click click BOOM click click BOOM click click BOOM click click BOOM click click BOOM
. There wasn't a single dead rat .
Pretty unbelievable, quite frankly. Sorry, but from that range he could only miss if he was trying not to hit them if it was truly packed full of rats.
They scatter quickly and he was so close with the shotgun the pellets didn't spread much .
It was really funny for us.
Quote from: nuschler22 on April 18, 2016, 04:05:43 PM
Anyone who thinks it's a realistic for even the worst of shooters to miss over and over at close range with a shotgun (especially with buckshot) has never fired a shotgun.
I don't know if I've ever seen anyone miss a target with a shotgun from six feet or less away. And I've seen a lot of shooting by a lot of bad shooters.
Once again, I was one square away. So, the very next square. Not one square between. So no distance to complicate the matters (game math wise).
Although the graphic indicates buckshot, I don't think Rimworld actually calculates the pellets. It functions more like a slug, IIRC. Combat Realism, however has this feature.
I'm going to look into the code to see if there's a problem; I have noticed this and it seems odd. We didn't change anything with shooting, but bugs can come from weird places. Or, maybe the water level of jankiness in the game has just fallen so this seems to stick out more. We'll see.
If you mean finishing off downed enemies, two improvements can be made:
1. Pawns simply using melee attacks on downed enemies, especially hunting. Might be immersion breaking but they're technically harmless.
2. Pawns should get into optimal range of their weapon, not as close as possible. Last time I checked sniper rifles were LESS accurate point blank.
Would be VERY interesting to see a mod or experimental "realism" mode, where bullet wounds are almost always fatal, shooting has realistic accuracy and firing patterns etc It might not work at all, or it might make for a very hard and exciting game where every combat is life and death, not simply a few injuries.
Quote from: MajorFordson on April 18, 2016, 09:54:44 PM
Would be VERY interesting to see a mod or experimental "realism" mode, where bullet wounds are almost always fatal, shooting has realistic accuracy and firing patterns etc It might not work at all, or it might make for a very hard and exciting game where every combat is life and death, not simply a few injuries.
Combat Realism is what you are looking for, and the mod version for A13 is being worked on right now.
I would like shotguns to be redone if possible, shotguns just feel like a weaker, lower range rifle. Also wish guns were a bit deeper OUTSIDE of the under the hood math for it, allowing different tactics of shooting, like on the move, rapid fire, slower more accurate shooting (think voluntarily choosing to turn on careful shooter / trigger happy on a whim) and other things, even shooting while in melee, but with less chance to hit, more chance to not fire... Guns are neat , but the fact usefulness is limited by skill so much bothers me. I think skill should be more than just "accuracy" for shots, and perhaps eventually allowing more fancy shots, like purposeful grazing hits, lethal hits, ect. Though, this would need a fallout style "select attack style", thing to shine, but still.
Though yes, on topic, some of the math seems off, rain in the night makes it hard to hit deer out in the open from no real range. I think perhaps some of these (dark, range even shooting accuracy frfr skill) should be multiplied by how many tiles away, depending on the weapon. So close up skill is almost meaningless (automatics, heavy rifles, bows i can understand this not applying to) while more and more range makes skill more and more important. Generally, point blank, 0 skill is needed to kill something (or at least hit it) up close, assuming its not tiny.
How about the hunter performs the slaughter action, like handlers do with colony animals, just move in after it is downed and cut the head off? No more spraying from one tile away :P
i have noticed that the shooting accuracy is mainly affected by the 'shooter' reason while i hover to see the hit %. And i have seen a colonist have 20% shooter trait and 13% overall to hit chance with a good sniper rifle at lvl11 when his mood was about 40% but his mental soft break was 16 and hard at 1% while after shooting for some time, his shooter went down to 3% and overall at 2% when his mood went to 20 and he was nearing all the negative warning lvls of needs . think the problem is the needs affecting the accuracy when they are not full and e can never have all the needs at full so there needs to be a point,around 50% of needs when we start tanking the accuracy
In two months time: A14 Realistic Combat has been released. The forum is filled with enraged posts due to the high mortality of colonists.
I think a feature like slaughtering animals should be added to incapped creatures (humans as well) to finish them off. It always feels weird to me that the only way to kill an incapped creature is to shoot or stab it over and over, hitting random bits. If it's incapped, just let the colonist go there and cut off the head like they do with livestock. End of problem.
Quote from: Boston on April 18, 2016, 10:11:35 PM
Quote from: MajorFordson on April 18, 2016, 09:54:44 PM
Would be VERY interesting to see a mod or experimental "realism" mode, where bullet wounds are almost always fatal, shooting has realistic accuracy and firing patterns etc It might not work at all, or it might make for a very hard and exciting game where every combat is life and death, not simply a few injuries.
I usually use this with Rimfire which provides a good play.
Combat Realism is what you are looking for, and the mod version for A13 is being worked on right now.
Incapped doesn't mean holding still though, hunters in reality make sure a kill is 100% dead before getting close,, because otherwise a boar or buck could still gore you flailing in pain (which incapped creatures do in this, flailing i mean). I think instead, a massive accuracy bonus on downed pawns would work.
Quote from: mumblemumble on April 19, 2016, 04:09:06 PM
Incapped doesn't mean holding still though, hunters in reality make sure a kill is 100% dead before getting close,, because otherwise a boar or buck could still gore you flailing in pain (which incapped creatures do in this, flailing i mean). I think instead, a massive accuracy bonus on downed pawns would work.
But if you manually order a colonist to attack a downed animal in melee, it's completely safe. Immersion breaking, yes, but no downside to this micromanagement from mechanic point of view. I think it should be either one or the other. Either incapped animals are somewhat dangerous and you can't order them manually, or they aren't and colonists finish downed animals in melee.
Also, I would like a setting to exterminate animals. Like hunting, but without hauling the corpse. Currently only alphabeavers need this, but when they DO show up it's really annoying.
This is pretty X-Com levels of ridiculous.
(http://i.imgur.com/xwDCAQU.jpg)
To be fair, trigger happy is a shitty trait unless used with a minigun on hoards. (then misses are often still hits). It doesn't matter how often you shoot, if you don't hit anything, what is the point? That 50 % reduction makes most people with it worthless shots, even at high levels, as you see.
The 50% less accuracy is simply not worth the fire rate most of the time, unless using grenades. Honestly i wish it was like careful shooter, where the con was half of the pro...
I think we've finally figured out the back story for Rimworld.
Everyone on the planet is a surviving stormtrooper from the fall of the Galactic Empire
Without trigger happy, would that make the shot 6% or 53%?
I'm honestly not sure exactly how it works... Guns have base accuracy, tiles out having accuracy drop off for most guns, ect... But i don't know the exact math. I guess one cool dev mode the trait on / off to figure it out, but its obviously enough that the trait is pretty much equivalent to incapable of shooting.
Seriously, can't stand fast shooter, if it was 25 % more fire speed, but only 25% less accurate, i could deal with it, but 50 is just so not worth it.
It depends on whether the 50% is actually 1/2 of the end value, or something more crippling.
I think part of the reason we expect more out of our snipers is we don't realize just how penalizing that shooter-based range penalty is.
I have a sniper with 14 skill, with no bionics or health penalties. That, combined, gives him a 99.10% per-square accuracy before curving. The curving process reduces accuracy for high skill and increases it for low skill (a 0-skill brawler, with 50% accuracy, gets boosted way up to 80.26%), so post-curve my sniper gets 97.55%. Which sounds impressive, until you realize that that's PER-SQUARE. My sniper tries to engage from the very limit of his weapon (45 squares), so that becomes (97.55%)^45 = approximately 33%.
Then you multiply by the weapon's accuracy, target size, darkness, cover...
Quote from: Mathenaut on April 20, 2016, 04:13:16 AM
Without trigger happy, would that make the shot 6% or 53%?
I'd guess 6%. But it would depend on whether the Trigger-happy penalty was applied pre- or post-curve.
I think bigger problem is game doesn't consider movement or move speed as factor, they literally miss wall, table... and how in the hell do you miss completely static centipede that's about 10 times bigger than human, or granny with bad back.
Also post process seems not working as intended, a pawn with 1-melee skill supposed to be grant about 10% accuracy, but then process kicks in and he has 70%; this discourages improving offensive skills beyond 5 in my opinion.
I think its safe to say, if it is applied pre curve.... Yeah.
I also agree, a pawns "moving" stat should enhance the Dodge chance, as well as actually moving (particularly moving sideways from the shooter) and completely Immobile objects (downed, walls turrets?) should get a bit of a to hit buff.
I think that the metric for shooting needs to be recalibrated.
There needs to be a baseline for a trained shooter firing at optimal range, then modifiers should scale from there. This present bottom-up approach is a little too random and inconsistent, I think.
Something is really weird. I had 4 people shoot a centipede - with LMG, Charge Rifle, Survival Rifle, and Sniper Rifle. They had between 5 and 10 Shooting skill. The firefight looked like something from "The A Team". Even the centipede hardly ever hit my shield-wearing decoy, and he was often in the open, not even in cover, and within pistol range.
Tynan, I think you should have some unit/regression tests for this.
Quote from: Mathenaut on April 20, 2016, 04:02:35 AM
This is pretty X-Com levels of ridiculous.
* Image of shooting skill and current shot chance *
Thats not all the info tho.
What is Potts' health tab like?
Is he missing limbs or an eye?
Try fighting a centipede with a small number of turrets. You'll see the number of improvised turret hits VASTLY outnumber the hits of your colonist. Whatever broke, it doesn't affect improvised turrets.
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 21, 2016, 02:33:07 PM
Try fighting a centipede with a small number of turrets. You'll see the number of improvised turret hits VASTLY outnumber the hits of your colonist. Whatever broke, it doesn't affect improvised turrets.
Turrets have always had the equivalent of very high shooting skills - though I should probably change that.
FYI I've done a deep rework of all the accuracy code so it should be a lot more tightly-designed and a bit less buggy next time.
Quote from: Tynan on April 21, 2016, 02:39:25 PM
Turrets have always had the equivalent of very high shooting skills - though I should probably change that.
...
*falls to knees, fists and face to sky* NOouuuuuuuuu... me turrets!
(j/k)
Quote from: Tynan on April 21, 2016, 02:39:25 PM
...
FYI I've done a deep rework of all the accuracy code so it should be a lot more tightly-designed and a bit less buggy next time.
Yay! Can't wait to see it. ;D
Quote from: Tynan on April 21, 2016, 02:39:25 PM
FYI I've done a deep rework of all the accuracy code so it should be a lot more tightly-designed and a bit less buggy next time.
Which means the raiders are gunna be better shots from Alpha 14 onward. On the one hand "Yay! my colonists' firing skills will make sense!" On the other "Crap, the raiders actually have a chance to hit me!"
Quote from: Tynan on April 21, 2016, 02:39:25 PM
Turrets have always had the equivalent of very high shooting skills - though I should probably change that.
If you really don't want us using turrets that bad, you can just remove them you know :P
Quote from: Mathenaut on April 18, 2016, 03:43:20 PM
AI also likes to make your colonists hunt at maximum range (least accuracy), so you may want to move them closer manually.
how do you move them closer manually?
draft and then manually hunt
Quote from: erdrik on April 21, 2016, 11:51:52 AM
Quote from: Mathenaut on April 20, 2016, 04:02:35 AM
This is pretty X-Com levels of ridiculous.
* Image of shooting skill and current shot chance *
Thats not all the info tho.
What is Potts' health tab like?
Is he missing limbs or an eye?
Potts is perfectly healthy in that screenshot.
Quote from: makapse on April 22, 2016, 10:54:59 AM
draft and then manually hunt
Essentially. You want to do this anyways because firing at max range leads to all sorts of accidents at present.