I like the idea of insect hives, creating a threat that comes from below ground is a good way to balance the advantages of building underground bases.
However the way insects spawn from the hive with no waring seems to be a bit too punishing. I find that hives will spawn in the centre of my colony and kill multiple pawns before I can even get to the pause button. This usually leads to the death of the entire colony as my best fighters are killed before they can organise.
I recommend that the bugs themselves should not spawn until a set period of time after the hive itself spawns or until the hive is attacked, whichever comes first. That way the player will have some warning which they can use to relocate their colony to the far side of the worldmap.
They even implemented this to the orbital drop pod raids. Now after the pods land you get a pretty long delay that allows you to reposition your goons. In the earlier alphas they just popped open immediately.
So it really shouldn't be that much different here.
Quote from: Zanfib on April 20, 2016, 04:46:16 AM
I like the idea of insect hives, creating a threat that comes from below ground is a good way to balance the advantages of building underground bases.
However the way insects spawn from the hive with no waring seems to be a bit too punishing. I find that hives will spawn in the centre of my colony and kill multiple pawns before I can even get to the pause button. This usually leads to the death of the entire colony as my best fighters are killed before they can organise.
I recommend that the bugs themselves should not spawn until a set period of time after the hive itself spawns or until the hive is attacked, whichever comes first. That way the player will have some warning which they can use to relocate their colony to the far side of the worldmap.
You hear that Tynan? I think he said "add bugs that explode" to balance the delay in spawn time.
Boomabugs? Bugaboom? Electric Boogaloo?
Actually exploding bugs would probably help.... Ever wonder why kamikazes in serious sam were pretty easy to throw at you endlessly? They blow each other up.
But yes, they still spawn too fast, giving them the ship part treatment would be more than fair imo. Maybe still allowing a spawn normally but after 1 hour minimum, so a hive in the hospital isn't gaurenteed deaths.
My suggestion would be to spread the initial bugs spawned over a rate of time, rather than all of them just popping in at once after a delay.
That way the Hives aren't completely defenseless, but the initial pop in isn't so overwhelming for whichever poor saps were in the room.
It already works this way, just the delay is really little - only 12 seconds before hives do the initial spawn. It's not much, but actually enough to move your pawns out of the way even if you have to deconstruct a steel wall or two. And it's actually longer than drop pod open time which is roughly 8.5 seconds.
Maybe instead of spawning a handful of Megascarabs and a couple of Megaspiders right away, give them some kind of evolution cycle.
For example: the hives appear and within 8-12 seconds spawn a handful of scarabs, after another 15-30 seconds the existing bugs upgrade into spiders and the hives spawn a few more scarabs, etc.
This would give the player time to react and make the event more on par with sieges. Could even rework the bugs themselves so scarabs are roughly equivalent to an angry squirrel/boomrat, spiders similar to a cougar, and a larger, bear/muffalo-sized grandaddy variant.
Quote from: koisama on April 20, 2016, 12:09:18 PM
It already works this way, just the delay is really little - only 12 seconds before hives do the initial spawn. It's not much, but actually enough to move your pawns out of the way even if you have to deconstruct a steel wall or two. And it's actually longer than drop pod open time which is roughly 8.5 seconds.
This is why I'm confused that this keeps getting brought up. There is a delay, and it's quite unmistakeable if you just pause when you get the infestation letter.
I'm going to rebalance the infestations in general and probably lengthen the delay but there are parts of this I don't get.
Yeah i didnt understand why u guys wanted more delay time. The delays fine, my guys always get out in time. The only problem is that no matter what lvl my guys are at they just arent able to kill them. The only efective tactic ive found is making all the furniture out of wood, and if a bug hive spawns use a molotov and roast them in the room. It only works occasionly, and the thrower usually dies or at least loses a body part, but my 6 charge rifle weilding power armour wearing colonists got shreded in a fair fight so i dunno how else to kill them
A tactic Ive used is luring them out 1 at a time into a long room or hall with lots of cover for the colonists.
Set the doors to force open, draft all but one of the colonists at the far end of the room or hall, send one to open the door into the bug room. For the first time flee as soon as the door starts to open. The door should stay open and the bugs that spotted the colonist will follow. Lure them over to the long room/hall, and have the bait colonist duck in behind the wall inside the room/hall. It is important for the bait colonist to break sight so that the gunners can grab the bugs attention. Then the bait colonist can fire at the bug freely as it tries to go after the gunners.
For each remaining bait move the bait colonist in front of the bug room, such that he/she doesn't actually enter but can fire into it. Grab another bug and repeat until cleared. I did this with 1 survival rifle, 1 sniper rifle, 1 shotty, and 3 pistols.(no armor)
My only problem with the infestation incident's arrival is the burst of all the bugs when the event happens. I think the length of the initial delay is fine, I just don't like how they all pop in at once. Well that and I would prefer it if flooring had an impact on which room an infestation popped into.
Quote from: killer117 on April 20, 2016, 08:23:44 PM
Yeah i didnt understand why u guys wanted more delay time. The delays fine, my guys always get out in time. The only problem is that no matter what lvl my guys are at they just arent able to kill them. The only efective tactic ive found is making all the furniture out of wood, and if a bug hive spawns use a molotov and roast them in the room. It only works occasionly, and the thrower usually dies or at least loses a body part, but my 6 charge rifle weilding power armour wearing colonists got shreded in a fair fight so i dunno how else to kill them
FYI melee is significantly more effective than guns at close range.
Or, melee line with gun shooters behind, at least.
Everyone still seems focused on guns, but this is how the game is balanced. It just seems like the community hasn't realize it yet.
If there is a delay, perhaps the reason most people do not notice it is because the game does not drop the speed to normal as it does with raids and other highly dangerous events.
All I can say is that when running on full speed I don't get enough time to see the event and hit the pause button before the megaspiders come out.
Because it is an infestation i would tone it with proper triggers: now there are 3 type of monster and they spawn all together every xx hours.
My tuning idea is that the 3 are spawned at different delay, like this:
the smaller spawned after 5 secs and every 3 hours
the middle spawned after 10 secs and every 5 hours
the bigger spawned after 15 secs and every 7 hours
maybe a cap would keep number of total insects in the map below 5 times the number of colonist
Values could be dynamic based on difficulty level and wealth to keep a proper balancing all along the gameplay.
Quote from: Tynan on April 20, 2016, 09:21:12 PM
FYI melee is significantly more effective than guns at close range.
Or, melee line with gun shooters behind, at least.
Everyone still seems focused on guns, but this is how the game is balanced. It just seems like the community hasn't realize it yet.
The problem is that the current ranged mechanics have your colonists as bigger threat/liability than whatever your melee guys are engaging. At present, it simply is not viable to mix the two without some really gimmicky work involved (or powerful shielding).
Also, I don't think the problem is the delay with the bugs, but the delay in when the message pops. By the time the alert pops up, it's about 1/4th into the deployment time.
Compared with raiders, the alert pops up before the pods drop. Maybe have the alert say 'bugs are tunneling through!' or something before the actual hive is spawned?
I agree that the delay needs to be longer, here's my reason for this:
I've had infestations that I've (at least tried to have) paused immediately, and still been physically unable to move the pawn out of the room in time. Now i concede that I could have simply been slow on the pausing, as I tend to leave the game in speed 3 between "events." That being said, i believe most people also leave the game at that speed, so I feel it is still a legitimate concern.
HOWEVER...
I think the delay should only be increased by a couple seconds...2-5 at most, and no more. Here's my reason for this:
A lengthy delay (excepting people attacking the hive), will give an EASY option of abuse, on the order of things like loading the room with disposable junk, tossing in a molotov, then shooting the hive (or not) and leaving the room. Currently that same strategy carries some slight risk, and if the bugs AI is altered to eliminate some of the current exploits, that strategy may carry a lot more risk.
I like the risk and threat that bugs present, but dislike the chance that i just "lose" a colonist randomly.
Quote from: Tynan on April 20, 2016, 09:21:12 PM
Quote from: killer117 on April 20, 2016, 08:23:44 PM
Yeah i didnt understand why u guys wanted more delay time. The delays fine, my guys always get out in time. The only problem is that no matter what lvl my guys are at they just arent able to kill them. The only efective tactic ive found is making all the furniture out of wood, and if a bug hive spawns use a molotov and roast them in the room. It only works occasionly, and the thrower usually dies or at least loses a body part, but my 6 charge rifle weilding power armour wearing colonists got shreded in a fair fight so i dunno how else to kill them
FYI melee is significantly more effective than guns at close range.
Or, melee line with gun shooters behind, at least.
Everyone still seems focused on guns, but this is how the game is balanced. It just seems like the community hasn't realize it yet.
I did notice this, my guy with a greatsword did have more success than my best shooter. I mostly use gun due to the much larger number of melee enemies than good shooters and i find that if my guys have guns they have a much better chance of escaping injury free. But i have to agree that my troops in my underground base have a much harder time of it as opposed to melee troops, but id still think that my laser rifle troops should stand some kind of chance against bugs
Quote from: Tynan on April 20, 2016, 09:21:12 PM
Quote from: killer117 on April 20, 2016, 08:23:44 PM
Yeah i didnt understand why u guys wanted more delay time. The delays fine, my guys always get out in time. The only problem is that no matter what lvl my guys are at they just arent able to kill them. The only efective tactic ive found is making all the furniture out of wood, and if a bug hive spawns use a molotov and roast them in the room. It only works occasionly, and the thrower usually dies or at least loses a body part, but my 6 charge rifle weilding power armour wearing colonists got shreded in a fair fight so i dunno how else to kill them
FYI melee is significantly more effective than guns at close range.
Or, melee line with gun shooters behind, at least.
Everyone still seems focused on guns, but this is how the game is balanced. It just seems like the community hasn't realize it yet.
I feel melee is
very underestimated in the game community. Possibly due to people's aversions to
any and all damage to their pawns.
I'd say the problem with melee is the damage they take not the damage they do. The injuries add up very fast, parts are quite rare. If you don't have very good positioning, cover, or just outnumber your enemy they get ganged up on badly due to the 'hit the closest' AI. Also, insane mechanoid melee kills pure melee teams in no time unless heavily outnumbered and the tendency for friendly fire makes mixed setups rather sketchy outside of shielded decoys.
Melee at least doesn't have the problem of "He's eating my feet but I have a gun so I'll just keep trying to shoot him over and over until he chews his way up to my liver even though he interrupts me every single time" when attacked by a squirrel with them set to defend themselves.
Edit: I can spell, I swear I can. Really.
I like the idea of these bugs having some kind of hierarchy. By which I mean that hives can do something other than just reproducing themselves.
For example, maybe an initial goal of this hierarchy is to clear space for a bigger hive, which is let's say a 2x2 building instead of the puny 1x1, and needs a clearance of 1 tile all around. If for some reason there aren't any digger or builder bugs available to accomplish that, it can choose to expend its energy spawning those instead of making a copy of itself.
One of the perks of having a bigger hive might be the ability to produce a greater variety of insect castes. Or perhaps a more centralised hive mind which is more organised - currently, digging bugs can tunnel away everything supporting the roof over the hives.
I see why melee is better, i do, but i still think an advanced laser rifle held by a power armour wearing soldier with sixteen shooting in a tight corridor, should be able to kill a couple bugs at least, rather than just annoy them with the light damage they take. Especially as hes got three simarly equipped but less skiled friends helping him
Sometimes, no matter what enemy you're dealing with, a direct assault is going to be costly.
For example, if you can trap the bugs in a fairly enclosed space and roll in some molotovs (maybe with your ranged guys drawing attention) you can let the elements do the work of incapacitating the enemy.
In a mountain base it's actually quite easy to make that trap work - your internal walls are likely rock (or stone bricks because you get piles of it from digging so deep) and don't burn. You're often forced to compromise on room size because you don't quite have the same elbow room that you do outside. Finally, you sometimes need to dig tunnels for mining or to exhaust hot air from your coolers.
By the time I got an infestation in my current mountain colony, I'd already won because of how the battlefield was arranged. Even if the hives hadn't spawned in and next to an exhaust tunnel, I could have built a temporary tunnel into their nest and blammo, same tactic works.
Quote from: AllenWL on April 22, 2016, 03:47:35 AM
I feel melee is very underestimated in the game community. Possibly due to people's aversions to
any and all damage to their pawns.
This is because serious injuries proc randomly and are often irrecoverable and severe (i.e. scars). So yeah, people keep their pawns away from random permanent debuffs (and no, that's not 'realistic', which is why the response behavior is so extreme).
Quote from: Mathenaut on April 22, 2016, 12:03:33 PM
Quote from: AllenWL on April 22, 2016, 03:47:35 AM
I feel melee is very underestimated in the game community. Possibly due to people's aversions to
any and all damage to their pawns.
This is because serious injuries proc randomly and are often irrecoverable and severe (i.e. scars). So yeah, people keep their pawns away from random permanent debuffs (and no, that's not 'realistic', which is why the response behavior is so extreme).
This. I'm fine with my colonists taking damage, I'm less fine with having a colony crippled by a year's worth of squirrel attacks.
Even then, the ability to make tactical decisions is supposed to be one of the main selling points behind this game. Who in their right mind is going to charge a massive, man-eating bug with little more than a stone club or a knife? I'll stick to a fireteam armed with shotguns, thanks.
Quote from: MarvinKosh on April 22, 2016, 12:00:34 PM
Sometimes, no matter what enemy you're dealing with, a direct assault is going to be costly.
For example, if you can trap the bugs in a fairly enclosed space and roll in some molotovs (maybe with your ranged guys drawing attention) you can let the elements do the work of incapacitating the enemy.
In a mountain base it's actually quite easy to make that trap work - your internal walls are likely rock (or stone bricks because you get piles of it from digging so deep) and don't burn. You're often forced to compromise on room size because you don't quite have the same elbow room that you do outside. Finally, you sometimes need to dig tunnels for mining or to exhaust hot air from your coolers.
By the time I got an infestation in my current mountain colony, I'd already won because of how the battlefield was arranged. Even if the hives hadn't spawned in and next to an exhaust tunnel, I could have built a temporary tunnel into their nest and blammo, same tactic works.
I know my attack mathod may be costly, but id like it if my team killed just one spider. I loaded the save three times to see if my method of shooter to either side with somone opening the door, would work. Total i think i killed 3 megascarabs and a spelopede. For how advanced my troops are id like just 1 megaspider kill to be happy that my guys died in a fair fight, but seeing my advanced weapons only annoy them, while 2 melee hits was enough to end each of my colonists, i just reloaded and dev moded them away, cause thats just not right. I know the conditions aren't ideal, but for my lvl of gear i should still be making a sizeable dent in them at least, rather than annoying them
Well, I have had a few bug ones, but one was almost really bad. They just popped up in center of my prison with no warning and bam!!!! My warden/high skilled doctor was right in the middle of it all treating prisoner from a raid. Luckily didn't die, but was a tough one to rescue and took a serious high risk assault to break in. Only reason was able to is I have an animal handler raising cougars and grizzlies that was able to release em all for a final push.
I feel the following change should be made.
1. Red hive warning "One of your colonists hear digging from beneath your floors" or similar
2. Make use of the new shader layer showing damage to show where they are digging through the flooring into your colony
3. After a bit of time (on par with a raid dropping in), bugs and hives break in.
To comment on comments, what killer said is a risk. Though if you have longer clear hallways, it is possible to sniper em out without the hard melee risks. Not sure why the troubles though, my smaller group seemed to shoot em out if I had some range positioning to start the aggro then used hide and cover tactics to finish em off. But in a very large one, they are quite difficult.
The fire strategy is a good one, but I had a colony pop up in a cooler once. That is my entire food supply burned to burn em out, not good. Grenades is an effective strategy if you are fast on moving em and have a couple. Worst case can tunnel to near by them, making a doorway before breaching tunnel. I set three guys or more near the doorway if I can that is within throwing range. I have it hold open as I send my digger to breach the wall to the bugs. Once the hole breaks, they throw their grenades and the digger runs past to close the door again. Usually can do some damage to give the advantage.
If you're not wild about the possibility of fire damage, a slower and more controlled approach to increasing temperatures is possible. It's resource intensive, as you'll need to set up a bunch of heaters in a neighbouring room, then deconstruct the adjoining wall and make a run for it.
Set the temperature for about 100C. In no time at all the bugs will be on the deck and you can mop up with ease. You'll need to re-freeze your food, of course, but it shouldn't spoil before you finish off the bugs.
Quote from: MarvinKosh on April 22, 2016, 02:45:31 PM
If you're not wild about the possibility of fire damage, a slower and more controlled approach to increasing temperatures is possible. It's resource intensive, as you'll need to set up a bunch of heaters in a neighbouring room, then deconstruct the adjoining wall and make a run for it.
Set the temperature for about 100C. In no time at all the bugs will be on the deck and you can mop up with ease. You'll need to re-freeze your food, of course, but it shouldn't spoil before you finish off the bugs.
Ooh, that is a good idea, I like the concept of cooking em out
Quote from: Mathenaut on April 22, 2016, 12:03:33 PM
Quote from: AllenWL on April 22, 2016, 03:47:35 AM
I feel melee is very underestimated in the game community. Possibly due to people's aversions to
any and all damage to their pawns.
This is because serious injuries proc randomly and are often irrecoverable and severe (i.e. scars). So yeah, people keep their pawns away from random permanent debuffs (and no, that's not 'realistic', which is why the response behavior is so extreme).
In my opinion, unless you lose an entire limb or a hand/foot, it's not really that bad of a injury. Sure, they're less effective than uninjured people, but scars only do so much, and the -15 or so social from being disfigured isn't too bad. And unless it's a missing limb, even mediocre treatment is enough to heal them fully without scars.
Other then a few rare injuries like eyeball injuries or brain wounds, you rarely get 'random permanent debuffs'
...
Usually.
Quote from: koisama on April 20, 2016, 12:09:18 PM
It already works this way, just the delay is really little - only 12 seconds before hives do the initial spawn. It's not much, but actually enough to move your pawns out of the way even if you have to deconstruct a steel wall or two. And it's actually longer than drop pod open time which is roughly 8.5 seconds.
What version are you playing where they wait for 12 seconds? It is more like 2 seconds for me...
If they spawn in a bedroom, they often incapacitate them before they can get out the door...
Could be the difference between the game speeds.
Though, I got an idea for insect hives.
Instead of all 4, 5 popping out at once, after the 'hive has opened up' warning, only one hive will spawn, then the other hives will pop up one by one with say, one hive every 1, 2 in-game hours. So when your colony has is as wealthy as can be with 50+ people or whatever, you don't get 10-something hives popping out at once with 10-something bugs out and about, but one hive, then another, then another, then another, till all hives are out.
Ex: You get a infestation, and due to your wealth, you get 5 hives.
Currently, all 5 pop out at once, then all spawn the bugs at once, basically throwing 5 bugs at your face within a in-game hour.
With my idea, a single hive will pop out first, then spawn it's bug after whatever delay it has. Then, somewhere between 1 and 2 (in-game)hours later, another hive will spawn, then 1, 2 hours after, another hive spawns, then another, until all five hives have spawned.
This way, it gives your colonists a chance to run away or at least not get horribly mauled instantly, and gives you some time to get your people assembled without 5+ bugs eating your walls, but still keeps hives a threat and doesn't leave defenseless hives around to kill.
The alert can change to say something like 'A underground insects are creating hives. They will create hives for (random time), after which the hives will reproduce on their own'
Quote from: Tynan on April 20, 2016, 09:21:12 PM
FYI melee is significantly more effective than guns at close range.
Or, melee line with gun shooters behind, at least.
Everyone still seems focused on guns, but this is how the game is balanced. It just seems like the community hasn't realize it yet.
Yes, bugs are melee specialists. Would you try beating them at their own game, when they outnumber your competent melee fighters and with the generous stunlock rules promoting ganging up ? It's like going toe to toe with a melee pirate raid. Would you risk your trained hauling dogs just to beat the bugs ? Melee is something that works in the midgame at best, because without an armour vest, good jacket and a helmet you're going to lose limbs and organs left and right. And bugs deal cutting damage, not blunt damage.
And going melee encourages going all-in. Shooters behind melee works on paper, but you're going to hit your own colonists.
The most effective tactic I've found is hit&run with handgrenades. Two hives spawned in one of my bedrooms. It was too small to have much buffer space, so David still lost a finger. Handgrenades are easy to hit and deal enough damage to make bugs notice. And when they start digging out of their enclosure is the perfect time for jumping in with a grenade primed.
Quote from: killer117 on April 22, 2016, 02:55:34 AM
I did notice this, my guy with a greatsword did have more success than my best shooter. I mostly use gun due to the much larger number of melee enemies than good shooters and i find that if my guys have guns they have a much better chance of escaping injury free. But i have to agree that my troops in my underground base have a much harder time of it as opposed to melee troops, but id still think that my laser rifle troops should stand some kind of chance against bugs
Greatsword.. laser rifle... Is Tynan supposed to balance his game against weapons only existing in mods ?
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 29, 2016, 04:33:00 AM
Quote from: Tynan on April 20, 2016, 09:21:12 PM
FYI melee is significantly more effective than guns at close range.
Or, melee line with gun shooters behind, at least.
Everyone still seems focused on guns, but this is how the game is balanced. It just seems like the community hasn't realize it yet.
Yes, bugs are melee specialists. Would you try beating them at their own game, when they outnumber your competent melee fighters and with the generous stunlock rules promoting ganging up ? It's like going toe to toe with a melee pirate raid. Would you risk your trained hauling dogs just to beat the bugs ? Melee is something that works in the midgame at best, because without an armour vest, good jacket and a helmet you're going to lose limbs and organs left and right. And bugs deal cutting damage, not blunt damage.
And going melee encourages going all-in. Shooters behind melee works on paper, but you're going to hit your own colonists.
The most effective tactic I've found is hit&run with handgrenades. Two hives spawned in one of my bedrooms. It was too small to have much buffer space, so David still lost a finger. Handgrenades are easy to hit and deal enough damage to make bugs notice. And when they start digging out of their enclosure is the perfect time for jumping in with a grenade primed.
Quote from: killer117 on April 22, 2016, 02:55:34 AM
I did notice this, my guy with a greatsword did have more success than my best shooter. I mostly use gun due to the much larger number of melee enemies than good shooters and i find that if my guys have guns they have a much better chance of escaping injury free. But i have to agree that my troops in my underground base have a much harder time of it as opposed to melee troops, but id still think that my laser rifle troops should stand some kind of chance against bugs
Greatsword.. laser rifle... Is Tynan supposed to balance his game against weapons only existing in mods ?
I think he means longsword and charge rifle. I think.
Also, why use dogs when you have bears, wargs, and rhinos?
And I've gone toe to toe with a melee pirate raid using melee and won once.
Anyways, dogs can be replaced, people can get new limbs. It'll take time, sure, but it's not a colony-ending thing. Personally, I think people focus way too much on getting every colonist through the entire game without so much as a single scratch.
Quote from: AllenWL on April 29, 2016, 05:21:06 AM
Also, why use dogs when you have bears, wargs, and rhinos?
I do ?
Dogs are much more plentiful, wargs have something like 75% wildness, good luck taming them. If you can afford buying them in numbers, then generally you can afford anything, like burning a wing of your colony just to get rid of bugs. I'm in boreal forest, I had to take out bugs without animal support.
Quote
And I've gone toe to toe with a melee pirate raid using melee and won once.
"I've jumped over a power line once. Therefore it's possible and a good idea."
Quote
Anyways, dogs can be replaced, people can get new limbs. It'll take time, sure, but it's not a colony-ending thing. Personally, I think people focus way too much on getting every colonist through the entire game without so much as a single scratch.
A hauling dog is harder to replace than a colonist, and valuable because all large dogs can haul but not all colonists can.
In my previous game A13 an early game injury completely crippled Valentin the sheriff. He was a sheriff, and an eye scar meant he never hit anything anymore, even once his skill reached 20. Sonia got an eye poked out, too. Why would I get more colonists who can't fight ? Everyone needs to pull his weight in a colony, you either work, haul, or kill. NO bionic eyes were sold until my ship launched.
In my current game I attempted meleeing a sniper with 0 skill. Several meters from the sniper he shot my colonist's leg off. Peg leg time, and he was a promising melee fighter.
David lost a finger and a jaw, sonia a kidney. I got lucky and will replace all except jaw. No one sells jaws.
Some injuries are annoying, some outright crippling. Losing just one toe causes 10% movement speed loss.
Rimworld went overboard with limb loss, and it has a good chance to totally cripple a colonist. I'm not playing russian roulette with my colonists.
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 29, 2016, 06:21:24 AM
Quote from: AllenWL on April 29, 2016, 05:21:06 AM
And I've gone toe to toe with a melee pirate raid using melee and won once.
"I've jumped over a power line once. Therefore it's possible and a good idea."
I also barely took any damage, didn't take any permanent damage, took minimal structural damage, and didn't lose any animals.
It's a lot safer and viable than jumping over power lines.
While I do get your point(which I believe is something among the lines of'just because you managed it once, doesn't mean you can do it again, or regularly', right?), I have done it regularly, and I have managed it quite a few times each with minimum casualties.
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 29, 2016, 06:21:24 AM
Quote from: AllenWL on April 29, 2016, 05:21:06 AM
Anyways, dogs can be replaced, people can get new limbs. It'll take time, sure, but it's not a colony-ending thing. Personally, I think people focus way too much on getting every colonist through the entire game without so much as a single scratch.
A hauling dog is harder to replace than a colonist, and valuable because all large dogs can haul but not all colonists can.
In my previous game A13 an early game injury completely crippled Valentin the sheriff. He was a sheriff, and an eye scar meant he never hit anything anymore, even once his skill reached 20. Sonia got an eye poked out, too. Why would I get more colonists who can't fight ? Everyone needs to pull his weight in a colony, you either work, haul, or kill. NO bionic eyes were sold until my ship launched.
Maybe we play differently, totally possible, but I never had a shortage of haulers, even without dogs. Sure, not every colonist can haul, but one or two who can haul dedicated to hauling can get quite a lot done.
From my experience, eye injuries are very rare. Also, I had a colonist with a eye scar who didn't have 20 skill, and still had passable accuracy. While the eye could be to blame, it could also have been poor weapon choice. Also, missing eyes don't seem to be that bad when going melee. And again, if you don't want them, you could get a new colonist with some effort. You don't need eyes to haul or clean either, and I'm almost sure it doesn't effect building or cooking. Or wardening for that matter.
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 29, 2016, 06:21:24 AM
In my current game I attempted meleeing a sniper with 0 skill. Several meters from the sniper he shot my colonist's leg off. Peg leg time, and he was a promising melee fighter.
You're approaching a person armed with a gun from several meters. That's never a good idea, and promising melee fighter does not mean 'dodges bullets like a pro'.
Also, note that a sniper rifle is actually more accurate from long range, so 'several meters from the sniper' actually mean less than 'got hit right in front of the sniper'
You could have waited till he was closer to attack, or moved from cover to cover(trees, stone chuncks), only moving right after he fired to not get fired at when out of cover.
You could also have gotten persona shield, a semi-common drop for pirate raiders.
Both valid ways of getting to that sniper without getting hurt.
Also, just how often do you think a sniper with 0 skill will be able to shoot off someone's leg? To put it your way,
"I threw a wet sponge from a speeding bike and hit the bull's eye while blindfolded, so it's possible, and a common occurrence"
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 29, 2016, 06:21:24 AM
Some injuries are annoying, some outright crippling. Losing just one toe causes 10% movement speed loss.
Rimworld went overboard with limb loss, and it has a good chance to totally cripple a colonist. I'm not playing russian roulette with my colonists.
This is a matter of opinion.
Loosing one toe gives -10% on movement, but you still have the other 90% It's really not that bad. A pawn moves at around 4.32 tiles per second. A missing toe puts you at about 3.888, a 0.432 tile per second difference. Unless you're running from a pack of hungry muffalo, its not that big of a loss.
Organs can be gotten from prisoners, and you usually get at least one per raid.
Also, you are just as likely to have a colonist lose a lung in a firefight as you are when you send him out to knife the enemy. In fact, knifing can give less injury, because when it's a gun vs gun, you have to trade shots. However, a melee unit doesn't have to engage till he's right up close. With proper use of terrain, it's very possible.
Yes, rimworld could have some better combat mechanics. Yes, a single bullet to the brain, or a high-caliber to the limb can rip it off, but it's really not that common. At least for me anyways.
A colonist losing a limb happens once in a blue moon. A sniper round to the leg will instantly down while not removing the limb, so the colonist doesn't get more damage anyhow.
It takes multiple hits to the arm to take out out, and really, there are two arms, two other legs, a very big torso, and dozens of other parts. Limb loss is possible, but not really that common.
Also, there are other things that factor in as well.
For example, what kind of clothes and armor do you give your colonists?
Clothes work as armor too, and a good sturdy pair of pants and shirt, with a nice jacket
can protect your colonists from limb-loss, as can use of cover, not just sandbags, things like walls, trees, stone chunks, even bushes and tables.
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 29, 2016, 06:21:24 AM
Everyone needs to pull his weight in a colony, you either work, haul, or kill.
And really, you can find a job for practically anyone(I mean, a peg-legged, one-armed man with a bullet in his brain can't do anything, but other then these extreme cases), I've had people who where frail with bad back, people without arms, people with peg legs, people who can't fight, people who would barely do anything and more in my colony, and they all pulled their weight, all of them.
Even if it was just menial jobs and small labor, every little bit counts, and you'd be surprised at how much those little things can be worth.
Quote from: AllenWL on April 29, 2016, 07:39:13 AM
From my experience, eye injuries are very rare. Also, I had a colonist with a eye scar who didn't have 20 skill, and still had passable accuracy. While the eye could be to blame, it could also have been poor weapon choice.
I've tried all weapons, including a survival rifle. No difference. It would perhaps make sense to make him a minigunner, but I already had two triggerhappy colonists, so why bother ?
Quote
Also, missing eyes don't seem to be that bad when going melee. And again, if you don't want them, you could get a new colonist with some effort. You don't need eyes to haul or clean either, and I'm almost sure it doesn't effect building or cooking. Or wardening for that matter.
Both colonists who lost their eyes were unable to haul or clean. And sheriffs can pretty much only fight, so when he lost an eye it WAS crippling for him, it disabled the only thing he could do for the colony.
QuoteYou could have waited till he was closer to attack,
No. Snipers don't get closer on their own. And I really needed a sniper rifle because there was a poison ship.
Quote
or moved from cover to cover(trees, stone chuncks), only moving right after he fired to not get fired at when out of cover.
No, because he was chased by two guys with handgrenades. Besides, hiding between every shot means the 0 Shooting sniper would get more attempts to hit.
Quote
You could also have gotten persona shield, a semi-common drop for pirate raiders.
I got my first personal shields 2 raids later, there were no trade ships and I was poor anyway.
Quote
Both valid ways of getting to that sniper without getting hurt.
Except when none is available to you, and situation is so dire that sending someone to beat a sniper and distract grenadiers from turrets and shooters in cover is the better plan.
Quote
Also, just how often do you think a sniper with 0 skill will be able to shoot off someone's leg? To put it your way,
"I threw a wet sponge from a speeding bike and hit the bull's eye while blindfolded, so it's possible, and a common occurrence"
Even pirates outnumber your colonists, so yes, they get more dices to roll than you. They get more attempts, and raiders don't get pawns incapable of violence, while I have three in that colony (and I rejected two colonists - one was 75 year old, another 90+), three colonists with Shooting around 10, one melee fighter (the guy with a bionic in place of the shot off leg) in a 8 person colony. When capable fighters are so scarce you absolutely can't afford fighting battles of attrition!
Quote
Also, you are just as likely to have a colonist lose a lung in a firefight as you are when you send him out to knife the enemy.
And here we arrive at the core of the issue - raiders, even pirates, invariably outnumber your colonists. Player tactics in Rimworld evolved to don't get shot at all. Hence the large popularity of survival rifles, sniper rifles, assault rifles. I use a few turrets in front (2-4) to draw enemy fire, often with a shielded colonist repairing them behind sandbags. The primary tactic of most people is to outrange. You can't have the advantage in numbers, so you must rely on quality.
For melee to be effective you need armor vest, helmet, and apparel better than cloth. Personal Shield is in my opinion optional, but armor greatly increases the chance of not getting crippled and not losing a melee fight to the shooter you tied up in melee. These things are generally available from midgame onwards, and at that point you can stock up on effective long range weaponry (survival, assault, sniper rifles for everyone) plus a few turrets.
There is no evidence that short ranged weapons are better for anything. Notice there are very few people in these forums discussing PDW, shotguns, heavy SMG, shortbows, pilas. Raiders are bad at using cover, so longer range simply means more time to shoot at raiders, and not get hit in return. LMG is used, but even that weapon got a buff (5 rounds -> 6 rounds) a few alphas ago, and Charge Rifle got an accuracy buff in A12.
In fact, knifing can give less injury, because when it's a gun vs gun, you have to trade shots. However, a melee unit doesn't have to engage till he's right up close. With proper use of terrain, it's very possible.
Quote
Even if it was just menial jobs and small labor, every little bit counts, and you'd be surprised at how much those little things can be worth.
My previous colony had 1 hauler when it was size 5. People who can't haul often are that way because Dumb Labor is disabled, so they can't clean either. They're not rare at all. I don't reroll my starting colonists at all and play in Permadeath (my 2nd game).
I meant it's quality and durability, but...
A higher quality weapon is more accurate, and different weapons are more accurate at different ranged. For example, a survival and sniper rifle have good accuracy at mid/long ranges, but at short or touch range, they have very poor accuracy. Shotguns and pistols on the other hand, are reversed, with good accuracy at short/touch range and bad accuracy at mid/long range
Snipers get closer if there are no targets. What I meant was hide somewhere where he can't hit you, which would make him come closer. Of course, now that I know you had turrets, I realize this would have meant giving up your turrets and might not have been an attractive proposal. I don't use turrets, so I forgot about that.
And yes, grenadiers do make it much more tricky. However, unless it's a sapper raid, they tend to be rare... for me anyways.
Well, I will admit you had little choice at that time... but a two grenadiers backed by a sniper. Like I said, what are the chances of that?
You can get leather clothes fairly quick. I'm usually churning out leather clothes of normal or better quality before the first year is over.
And yes, by the time you get armor vests, you can make guns. Still doesn't mean melee is neglectable.
'No evidence that short ranged weapons are better for anything'. Actually, they are, amazingly, better at short range. Lower damage, maybe, but higher accuracy and much faster fire-rate makes them much better up-close.
In PDW range, a PDW will beat a sniper rifle nearly every time. Real close, like a few tiles away, a PDW will *wreck* a sniper rifle.
In my opinion, the only problem with these weapons is that they're vulnerable to melee and that it's hard to get close. Both can be remedied. I personally never use sniper rifles. I get by just fine.
Short bows and Pilas, I agree, are useless though. No way around that really...
Anyways, short-range weapons and melee are very rarely discussed, true, but that doesn't make them useless.
I personally find people with even shooting 5 is capable enough when used right. It takes a bit of managing, some luring, but it works fine.
Also, yes you can't fight a battle of attrition, the enemy has endless forces after all. But really, you don't fight a 'battle' of attrition unless it's a siege, and really, colonists don't take much to heal.
My colonists have gotten shot, bruised, and stabbed multiple times. They've got infected, and bled enough blood to fill a pool. And you know? A bed, some herbal medicen, and any doctor is enough to get them back on their feet, usually in a day or two, without permanent injuries.
For me, 1 hauler is enough with 5 people, and usually just have one hauler at that point.
I think the hive insects are slightly too hardcore, we already have bullet sponge robots to face, I would prefer more insects, same or better dps, with much less health, just to make it more visceral than slugging it out for hours. They spawn in your base, in tight corridors that favor melee, they don't need too many more advantages.
I really like the idea of them popping out of nowhere to engage people, they're there to surprise you, not to be predicted, but I defiantly feel some accommodation is needed to make up for that advantage so that getting rid of them is less tedious, that could involve lowering HP or providing a weakness like EMP to mechtoids.
The melee... eh it might be strong, but without trainable defense/dodge attributes you wear down your melee fighters too quickly against melee focused opposition, as it stands you cannot stack the odds in your favor heavily enough against fellow melee troops, especially given retreat from melee engagement is nigh on impossible without heavily micromanaged door meta, I'm not suggesting it's black and white, but in my opinion melee needs some love if it's to be utilized.
Fun fact: hives can spawn megaspiders more than 15 hours BEFORE the reproduction counter goes down! Second infestation caused my colonists to lose pet hare and 2 fingers (my sniper lost a finger). I was determined to use my unwounded guys to finish off the hive, including my best melee guy. While he was slicing a badly damaged hive, a megaspider popped up from nowhere ! And to top it off, my brave melee fighter later went berserk in hospital, cutting an ear from a fellow colonist and causing many injuries in two. He also took damage being taken down, including an eye scar. Melee fighters are can be worse than useless. No, he's NOT getting that bionic eye I have in stockpile.
I need to build this colony like a damn bunker. Bulkhead doors everywhere from now on!!! And it will probably take a month of cleaning. Bugblood is the most awful kind of dirt.
They've not finished licking their wounds, but they're throwing a party. That's the spirit.
No one is getting beer because I have no cook above skill 2.
I died to the first hive I ever encountered because I didn't expect it.
Haven't had an issue since seeing how I take proper preparation when building anything under a mountain (more choke points, snare traps, occasional turret ready to be toggled). It really isn't that hard to counter if you bother building against.
Aka:git gud
My first hive wiped out my colony. I tried charging my guys in and got slaughtered. Melee is superior my ass. b0rsuk is right - why fight bugs on terms most favorable to them?
My second hive went very differently. First time out, I didn't realize the bugs were quite happy to sit in their little hive, at least for a while. This time I let the bugs hang out congratulating themselves while I set up an exterior rifle ambush, then opened the door and carefully drew them out one or two at a time. Whoever had aggro would run in circles, while everyone else stood back and blasted away. "Bait" duty traded off when a bug started chasing someone else. No casualties, minimal injuries, megaspider stew and royal jelly for dinner with plenty of leftovers for breakfast.
In general, I find melee next to worthless. Sneaking up on a ranged opponent is damn near impossible without getting your tits shot off, and blowing a charging melee enemy to pieces with gunfire is far preferable even to slugging it out and winning ... but ending up in the hospital. I'll admit it's fun to play with cover and line of sight to try to get close with melee, but only when the enemy is weak enough to toy with. In any serious fight, my non-gun-compliant colonists are only there to draw fire so my shooters can kill the enemy unmolested. I've even taken to giving pistols to my Shooting 0 / Melee 8+ guys so they'll be somewhat useful.
And you know, I am fine with all this. I don't think a game in this setting needs to have great balance between melee and guns. Think about Firefly for a minute - nobody carried swords around as their basic means of defense, and that's not a problem or "imbalanced". If I were to change RimWorld, I wouldn't change it so melee characters were harder to hit or immune to bullets - I would change the ratio of hitters to shooters so that melee specialists were rare, because that makes so much more sense in the setting. There shouldn't be martial artists hanging around on every street corner. A colony with 5 gunmen and 5 swordsmen is silly - 8 gunmen supported by a couple of brawlers seems much more appropriate.
I admit I'm new to the game ... I hope I'll learn to leverage melee better later. For now, whenever a brawler joins up, I think, "I hope he can cook."
I made a video about dealing with bugs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFygyGzkk1U
Worst infestation you can ever get (more than 30 hives at once). Zero casualties, and my colonists only lost a couple of noses and a pinky. And a couple of hauling huskies, but they breed like rabbits anyway.
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 29, 2016, 11:46:51 AM
Fun fact: hives can spawn megaspiders more than 15 hours BEFORE the reproduction counter goes down!
Reproduction counter is simply the time left till a new hive spawns, and has nothing to do with insect spawns, which is about twice as common.
But having a insect spawn counter as well would be nice.
Quote from: koisama on April 29, 2016, 06:00:13 PM
I made a video about dealing with bugs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFygyGzkk1U
Worst infestation you can ever get (more than 30 hives at once). Zero casualties, and my colonists only lost a couple of noses and a pinky. And a couple of hauling huskies, but they breed like rabbits anyway.
That's pretty cool, but I've never been in such a good position to be able to deal with bugs. My latest colony rather mercifully got an infestation at the bottom of the map, away from the colony itself, but I still find it difficult to deal with. My turrets do yield plenty of bugmeat to eat, though.
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on April 29, 2016, 02:14:16 PM
Aka:git gud
Please explain how you deal with 10+ ants teleporting into a bedroom while someone is sleeping and killing them before they can reach the door?
Without metagame cheese/bug exploits.
Quote from: Britnoth on April 30, 2016, 05:21:03 PM
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on April 29, 2016, 02:14:16 PM
Aka:git gud
Please explain how you deal with 10+ ants teleporting into a bedroom while someone is sleeping and killing them before they can reach the door?
Without metagame cheese/bug exploits.
Don't build your colonist's bedrooms under a mountain?
Quote from: Britnoth on April 30, 2016, 05:21:03 PM
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on April 29, 2016, 02:14:16 PM
Aka:git gud
Please explain how you deal with 10+ ants teleporting into a bedroom while someone is sleeping and killing them before they can reach the door?
Without metagame cheese/bug exploits.
Ditto. I had it show up dead center of my prison when I had two wardens in there. One was right by the door and got out, the other was down and arm and needing rescue in like half a second.
Countering is something else. But pretending that it doesn't cost is kinda funny. Same with if a person metagame plays to mine out every mountain to beat the odds. That is endgame style tactics. I usually can have a ship build and gone before that point.
The followup point about not building bedrooms under mountains, well sometimes that is a tactical choice. Bugs exist to keep mountains from being a safespot. Having bedrooms outside hold just as many risk potentials.
Quote from: AllenWL on April 29, 2016, 07:39:13 AM
Even if it was just menial jobs and small labor, every little bit counts, and you'd be surprised at how much those little things can be worth.
You know someone lucked out with RNG when they come out on top in melee with no damage AND don't have any disabled labor backgrounds in their group.
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on April 30, 2016, 05:26:17 PM
Haven't had an issue since seeing how I take proper preparation when building anything under a mountain
.....
Don't build your colonist's bedrooms under a mountain?
Your post contained the condition of being under the mountain. Asserting just
Quoteproper preparation
Is enough to deal with ants safely. Then you give advice directly opposite of the previous conditions you based your comment on.
Inconsistency detected. :P
Proper preparation involves planning your base properly. The bugs that pop out of the ground could also be the group of raiders drop-podding in through the roof. You take the risk of a bug popping out from under your colonist's beds when you insist on building their room/barracks under a mountain.
Bugs are a decent method of nerfing mountain turtling, but it doesn't disallow it completely. Build long hallways to kite them, use door peaking to your advantage. Outrange them. It really isn't that difficult to deal with them if you just play SMART.
I had bugs pop out when my colony couple were mid-shag. They didn't die luckily enough, and I had the sight to go "well, maybe I shouldn't be building the area where my colonists are the most vulnerable in the same area that bugs can dig out the floor."
tl;dr: gud, u should git
There is a huge difference between raiders landing right on top and instabugs. The drop pod raiders take several seconds to come out vs bugs which can instakill your best character while doing something menial. If you have an underground room, there is a reason, and somebody will be in there for that reason. Could be as simple as your best soldier loaded with bionics going to change his shirt in the storeroom.
The sign of a poor player is one who thinks they are better than the rest. My colonies usually are inpenetrable and make use of layout and manual guidance of pawns to the point now where it takes one hell of a lucky hit to cause a permanent injury, let alone death. Shoot, I don't even build turrets til mid to late game usually now. Doesn't change the fact that the bugs are an instant engagement. The only way to avoid it is never go underground, or heavily metagame to keep it in control. People like myself prefer to not metagame or exploit the programming.
Quote from: Vaporisor on April 30, 2016, 07:56:11 PM
There is a huge difference between raiders landing right on top and instabugs. The drop pod raiders take several seconds to come out vs bugs which can instakill your best character while doing something menial.
Uh, no? Bugs aren't instant. Infact, they have a LONGER deploy time than drop-pod raiders. In the test build, they were instant. That was changed.
Quote from: Vaporisor on April 30, 2016, 07:56:11 PM
The sign of a poor player is one who thinks they are better than the rest.
I dont think 'im better' than the rest, I'm just stating the facts. If you don't prepare for what you know will come then that's completely your fault.
Quote from: Vaporisor on April 30, 2016, 07:56:11 PM
The only way to avoid it is never go underground, or heavily metagame to keep it in control. People like myself prefer to not metagame or exploit the programming.
You just stated yourself earlier that you take advantage of manual guidance and other kinks in pawn pathfinding. It's not exactly your fault because how simplistic the AI can be when it comes to attacking, but almost everyone abuses it to some extent (making obvious paths with traps when it'd be 10x easier to break down a single wall into the actual colony for radiers.) I also fail to see how planning proper bases and understand what happens when you play the game is 'metagaming'. Yes, I will just not build my colonies around the fact it could be sieged, blown into via sappers, dropped in directly by things as tanky as mechanoids, ect. I wouldn't get very far into my colonies if I didn't 'metagame', as you said.
tl;dr: git gud screblerd
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on April 30, 2016, 08:22:52 PM
Quote from: Vaporisor on April 30, 2016, 07:56:11 PM
There is a huge difference between raiders landing right on top and instabugs. The drop pod raiders take several seconds to come out vs bugs which can instakill your best character while doing something menial.
Uh, no? Bugs aren't instant. Infact, they have a LONGER deploy time than drop-pod raiders. In the test build, they were instant. That was changed.
However, unlike raiders and drop pods, the hives spawning doesn't drop your speed down to one, so if you are playing on speed three, you need to be fast on the pause button to get your colonists out of harm's way when the hives spawn.
Quote from: Jorlem on April 30, 2016, 08:32:32 PM
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on April 30, 2016, 08:22:52 PM
Quote from: Vaporisor on April 30, 2016, 07:56:11 PM
There is a huge difference between raiders landing right on top and instabugs. The drop pod raiders take several seconds to come out vs bugs which can instakill your best character while doing something menial.
Uh, no? Bugs aren't instant. Infact, they have a LONGER deploy time than drop-pod raiders. In the test build, they were instant. That was changed.
However, unlike raiders and drop pods, the hives spawning doesn't drop your speed down to one, so if you are playing on speed three, you need to be fast on the pause button to get your colonists out of harm's way when the hives spawn.
Now that probably needs addressed. I don't really notice this stuff since I pause at the sound of any alarm in-game, but that's probably an oversight.
Quote from: Jorlem on April 30, 2016, 08:32:32 PM
However, unlike raiders and drop pods, the hives spawning doesn't drop your speed down to one, so if you are playing on speed three, you need to be fast on the pause button to get your colonists out of harm's way when the hives spawn.
And spread, that is what got me the first time. Got it paused right before they showed. Moved guys to the hives, but then there was spawn opposite side of the map as well that it didnt goto. Until I got the colonist need treatment, was no clue of bugs or hive. So now every infestation, gotta scroll whole map.
Quote from: Vaporisor on April 30, 2016, 07:56:11 PM
Bugs [...] can instakill your best character while doing something menial. If you have an underground room, there is a reason, and somebody will be in there for that reason. Could be as simple as your best soldier loaded with bionics going to change his shirt in the storeroom.
Sorry to butt in, but what you're describing isn't a failure on the game's part; on the contrary, it sounds like an
awesome scene from a sci-fi movie. Kickass dudebro soldier deep inside the base, thinks he's safe and relaxes, sets down his gun, pulls off his pants, and suddenly the metallic shrieks of alien predators are all around him and the lights go out. Now the rest of the crew can't raise him on the radio and they have to figure out what's going on ... and ultimately try to carry on without him.
At the risk of appearing "rimmier-than-thou", from what I've read the game isn't about being able to control everything, infallibly protecting your favorite colonist, or whatnot. Clearly, Tynan thought that players were feeling a little too snug and smug in our impenetrable mountain bases and wanted to scare us with something new we can't completely control. Things are going to get weird sometimes, out of hand sometimes, and we're going to lose a man sometimes. Not catastrophically, not
all the time, but enough to keep us on our toes and uncertain of ourselves. That makes the game
better, not worse.
That scene is upsetting, certainly; neither the moviegoer nor the game player really
wants to see that guy get killed. But you have to admit it's a much better hook for the beginning of a sci-fi thriller than "Man changes shirt without incident."
Quote from: Vaporisor on April 30, 2016, 10:00:53 PM
Quote from: Jorlem on April 30, 2016, 08:32:32 PM
However, unlike raiders and drop pods, the hives spawning doesn't drop your speed down to one, so if you are playing on speed three, you need to be fast on the pause button to get your colonists out of harm's way when the hives spawn.
And spread, that is what got me the first time. Got it paused right before they showed. Moved guys to the hives, but then there was spawn opposite side of the map as well that it didnt goto. Until I got the colonist need treatment, was no clue of bugs or hive. So now every infestation, gotta scroll whole map.
Yeah. That issue is similar to issue with the "Poor/Terrible Mood" and similar alerts. They don't scroll through all the pawns on the list when you click the alert, it just shows you the first one. When the Infestation event occurs, the alert's "go to" option takes you to the primary site, but there can be others, so there needs to be a way to jump the view between all the hives on the map.
Quote from: Zombra on April 30, 2016, 11:07:17 PM
Quote from: Vaporisor on April 30, 2016, 07:56:11 PM
Bugs [...] can instakill your best character while doing something menial. If you have an underground room, there is a reason, and somebody will be in there for that reason. Could be as simple as your best soldier loaded with bionics going to change his shirt in the storeroom.
Sorry to butt in, but what you're describing isn't a failure on the game's part; on the contrary, it sounds like an awesome scene from a sci-fi movie. Kickass dudebro soldier deep inside the base, thinks he's safe and relaxes, sets down his gun, pulls off his pants, and suddenly the metallic shrieks of alien predators are all around him and the lights go out. Now the rest of the crew can't raise him on the radio and they have to figure out what's going on ... and ultimately try to carry on without him.
At the risk of appearing "rimmier-than-thou", from what I've read the game isn't about being able to control everything, infallibly protecting your favorite colonist, or whatnot. Clearly, Tynan thought that players were feeling a little too snug and smug in our impenetrable mountain bases and wanted to scare us with something new we can't completely control. Things are going to get weird sometimes, out of hand sometimes, and we're going to lose a man sometimes. Not catastrophically, not all the time, but enough to keep us on our toes and uncertain of ourselves. That makes the game better, not worse.
That scene is upsetting, certainly; neither the moviegoer nor the game player really wants to see that guy get killed. But you have to admit it's a much better hook for the beginning of a sci-fi thriller than "Man changes shirt without incident."
I agree, it is cool, very cool. I love that the fortress of mountain is no longer safe. In my opinion, the only issue I have with the bugs is that their emersion doesn't feel organic. Just the hives appear and the bugs spawn in as a big clump. For the drop pods and stuff, it doesnt feel bad since from the start of the event, the pods and their occupants are each individual entities.
I would like if the spawning of the insects were more progressive. Fast, but progressive even if that meant there were more. The three steps I would like is first the event trigger being disruption in the ground. Say 10 seconds later, the hive appears and immediately insects start emerging, but not all at once, but as a stream. It keeps the omg horror show, and I feel would add to it cause now your colonists are running as a wave of insects starts to chase them, not poof instant surround.
Outside of their emersion, I would actually like to see more in the spawn, really feel like a swarm. Like tribe level of numbers in terms of megascarabs and the pedes.
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on April 30, 2016, 08:22:52 PM
If you don't prepare for what you know will come then that's completely your fault.
tl;dr: git gud screblerd
pretty much this, i feel like some players are looking for their safespace in this dangerous game.
Quote from: Luroshard on May 01, 2016, 05:02:23 AM
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on April 30, 2016, 08:22:52 PM
If you don't prepare for what you know will come then that's completely your fault.
tl;dr: git gud screblerd
pretty much this, i feel like some players are looking for their safespace in this dangerous game.
The ants are not difficult. In fact they are laughably easy once you know how to fight them.
In fact the biggest problem with the infestation is afterwards, with all the blood and gunk on the ground pissing everyone off.
Often killing them has taken so long everyone is hungry, tired, maybe with a couple of cuts and getting -15 mood from hideous environment...
The issue is there is nothing you can do when enemies teleport into your base and attack you 2 seconds later.
Drop pods you have time to get out the way of. Currently the infestation event you get no time before people die.
If Tynan wants to combat turtling up inside mountains, there are many ways to do it. Instant teleporting enemies is the most frustrating and retarded way you can imagine. It is pure RNG. Much like the rest of this update.
There is a significant delay, the only issue is with the game not slowing down or pausing.
I discovered shotguns are really nice for door peeking. Good damage, rate of fire, and no extra cooldown. LMG is nice only for longer corridors, and assault rifle mostly just tickles them.
You know what's really awful ? When a predator decides to hunt your animal or colonist, you get the warning the moment he's attacked in melee. I nearly lost a colonist this way, if I got worse hit rolls or my other fighters were further away, the stonecutter would be dead. And the kicker - turrets don't attack animals hunting you!
Playing on normal speed all the time is not really an option though is it. Until that is fixed, people will die before you can hit pause.
Then it just becomes RNG irritating, not difficult.
Hunting animals are equally irritating too. If you want to try it, I made a simple alert when something larger than a human starts hunting anything. You can find it in my thread in the unfinished mods forum.
I like the idea of making them like those crashed ships full of mechanoids.
One hive could appear in your base. When attacked, it will spit out all the creatures it does and start pumping more out over time. Attacking it would activate it and it would act like they do now. But if you left it alone, then it would be safe.
But then you make it dangerous by making the hive spread. As long as one hive is peaceful on your map, every couple of days an extra hive would appear. It might be nearby, it might be 50 squares away, in another part of your underground base/mining tunnel. The longer you leave it, the more hives will appear.
The danger is that once you attack one of them, they ALL activate. If you left it until there were 8 hives around then you're in serious trouble. And the longer you leave it, the more likely some idiot raider is going to shoot one by accident and suddenly you're buried under bugs.
Psychic ship parts are dangerous because the longer you leave them, the worse they affect your colonists. Make it similar with the hives. The longer you leave them, the harder the infestation will be to clear. Like real bug nests.
The starcraft part of me would like to see the terrain under them change and spread, like creep. Then other hives could appear on new creep. But then your colonists could keep one hive isolated by building walls around it or paving over the creep and that would be too easy. And if you couldn't pave over it, then that would ruin underground bases forever. So nuts to that idea.
Quote from: killer117 on April 20, 2016, 08:23:44 PM
Yeah i didnt understand why u guys wanted more delay time. The delays fine, my guys always get out in time. The only problem is that no matter what lvl my guys are at they just arent able to kill them. The only efective tactic ive found is making all the furniture out of wood, and if a bug hive spawns use a molotov and roast them in the room. It only works occasionly, and the thrower usually dies or at least loses a body part, but my 6 charge rifle weilding power armour wearing colonists got shreded in a fair fight so i dunno how else to kill them
I have one huge room in my mountain dedicated to these bugs. It's set in the deepest part of the mountain, surrounding all other romms (I don't know if bugs spawn randomly, or only in the innermost rooms, but when I built this one I assumed the latter, so this room runs in an arc around all my other rooms). I have no problem getting a molotov into there without losing my colonist, and then I just let the bugs roam around until the room heats up and they all combust.
Unfortunately, it gets so hot in there that everything (bug jelly, corpses) is destroyed, so no loot, but at least this room is unfurnished so nothing of value is actually lost.
As this is unlikely to be fixed before the next alpha release, I made my own bug fix for infestations:
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=17094.msg210793#msg210793 (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=17094.msg210793#msg210793)
Force slows the game to normal speed for the time period between hives spawning and their ants popping out. Enjoy.