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Here are a few ideas that in my opinion are not too hard to implement and could greatly improve the immersion of RimWorld, among other things.

1. New type of work - Guard
Priority: between Bed rest and Flick
Relevant skills: Shooting, Melee

A colonist that is assigned to guard will walk around with a drawn gun and will automatically pursuit enemies within the home area.

2. New type of Zone/Area - Expand Patrol Area, Clear Patrol Area

An area where the guards are restricted to. If enemy appears within the home area, the guard will leave the patrol area and attack the enemy. If there's no patrol area, the guard will wander around in the same fashion as an idle colonist.

3. New security building - Guard spot
Capacity: 1 colonist

Works just like the patrol area, except guards will always prioritize standing in a guard spot over a patrol area. Similarly to a sleeping spot, you can assign colonists to it. Multiple colonists can be assigned to a single guard spot. If there's an assigned colonist, only that colonist will be allowed to use the guard spot.

4. New positive thoughts - Protected, Safe
Protected: +5
Safe: +10

Whenever there's an active guard, all colonists receive a passive mood boost of +5 (Protected). If there are 3 or more colonists simultaneously doing guard duty, all colonists receive a passive mood boost of +10 (Safe).

Optional gameplay features:

Unknown Threats - an option to disable threat notifications (raids, sieges, wild animals, etc).

Attacks on your base will catch you by surprise, guards will be more useful by a tenfold and the best part? Makes the game experience more challenging and realistic.

Fog of War - an option to make enemies, visitors, animals, etc, hidden unless they are in your colonist's field of view. Adds to difficulty and immersion.

Synergizes with Unknown Threats for maximum immersion.

+1 on all of them, guard duty is an essential and the removal of announcement would make the game more surprising.

Also it would be nice if we could alter guards automatically. Per exemple, 3 guard doing 8 hours shift each after the other, for a 24h guard duty at the same spots, would be nice and remove some useless clicking.

Quote from: dragoduval on May 02, 2016, 11:53:18 AM
+1 on all of them, guard duty is an essential and the removal of announcement would make the game more surprising.

Also it would be nice if we could alter guards automatically. Per exemple, 3 guard doing 8 hours shift each after the other, for a 24h guard duty at the same spots, would be nice and remove some useless clicking.

Thanks for the support.

For 8 hours shifts, you could just restrict the activities of those 3 guards to 8 hours of work during different times of the day.

Since you said about the notifications and fog of war, how about the game will notify you about the danger if the raiders/manhunter/whatevers is on sight. Because, I think not notifying you at all seems to OP. You at 3x speed not noticing your colonist being shot to death at the edge of the map.

No, no and no.
The absence of Fog of War is a FEATURE in game-design along User-Interface, not a flaw. See the developers comment (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=146.msg1986#msg1986)
The idea was discussed to death in a (locked) thread, here is where I explain the problems. (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=12366.msg125027#msg125027)

In short : a FoW would bring nothing interesting to the game and work against every other of its features, like Events.

It would basically regress the game into the Tower-Defense we escaped from when the devs created Sieges, then Sappers.
I even affirm that any new features someone think FoW could bring, will be better implemented without hiding information globally.

Quote from: Mufflamingo on May 02, 2016, 02:03:11 PM
Since you said about the notifications and fog of war, how about the game will notify you about the danger if the raiders/manhunter/whatevers is on sight. Because, I think not notifying you at all seems to OP. You at 3x speed not noticing your colonist being shot to death at the edge of the map.

Good point. "Enemy sighted" notification when an enemy appears in a colonist's proximity/field of view. However if you send a lone colonist to the edge of the map, you should set him to flee in case of a threat anyway.

Quote from: Kegereneku on May 02, 2016, 03:07:36 PM
No, no and no.
The absence of Fog of War is a FEATURE in game-design along User-Interface, not a flaw. See the developers comment (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=146.msg1986#msg1986)
The idea was discussed to death in a (locked) thread, here is where I explain the problems. (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=12366.msg125027#msg125027)

In short : a FoW would bring nothing interesting to the game and work against every other of its features, like Events.

It would basically regress the game into the Tower-Defense we escaped from when the devs created Sieges, then Sappers.
I even affirm that any new features someone think FoW could bring, will be better implemented without hiding information globally.

First of all, if you don't like it, nobody would force you to play with FoW. This is why I propose to make it optional (like permadeath).

Secondly, you make it sound like my entire post was about FoW. The features I listed above could also perfectly work without FoW.

It's true I have been hasty, have a more throughout review :
First, I must insist that the features you suggest are not casual in game-design. You don't make extensive Feature and balance runs for a "optional" gameplay. Things is : some "simple" ideas easily turn into fundamental Game Changer that require extensive change & balance..

I understand if you don't have the time to read the Links, but they are very informative precisely on things you are aiming for.

To rephrase : The Notifications are a feature that make the game playable, usually realism don't.
- "Guard & Patrol" require the manpower and the ability to cover the distance to actually see the threat in time. It serve no point if you can't make it work or if it make no difference with normal Notification.
- the concept of "Unknown Threats" is (mostly) incompatible with Events in that it negate the distinctions between them, and with the calmer/managing pace of the normal game.
- "Unseen Threats" cause a problem where you have to define and balance colonist "sight" as well as when you are notified, because you'll need to be, every. single. time. a. new. threat. is. spotted. And even then it will encourage Savescuming as you'll likely see the threat only when it is too late (unseen enemy wrecking havoc in place you can't afford to lose for example).
For some players Predators are already way too much...

Conclusion :
You have to get around some very fundamental problems to get your "full" suggestion. To me around 90% of it is incompatible or would need to be made pointless to fit.
Still, I do see a much simpler "Guard" ideas : As an equivalent to "Draft" where the pawn also keep feeding/sleeping (clic pawn > DraftasGuard > Select Area, leave until undrafted), not as a jobs.
There's no need for constant guards and guard post, only temporary ones to deal with short & specific events.

I recommend encouraging someone to try the idea as a MODS, to see if it work.

i like the guard ideas and FOW.

and yea, i've read the links in kegereneku's post and his arguments and here's my take on it :

-"we dunno if FOW would add improvement to gameplay, it might actually break the careful balance and therefore.. NOPE". <--- this is his typical reaction and i don't blame him. every new feature to be added really needs to be considered how it will affect the current game balance. which is a huge task not to be taken lightly.

-"FOW prevents players from seeing the enemies and preventing them from planning ahead"... <--- the lack of knowledge of enemy troop movements does not automatically prevents players from planning an attack or a defense. playstyle is different per each player, some are aggressive while some are defensive. but the FOW does not deter them from doing such things. i've played several RTS games before like starcraft, warcraft, red alert, battlerealms, etc... played with FOW both on and off.. and i definitely enjoy having FOW better since it forces you to be more cautious since you don't know if you're facing an enemy scouting party or a full on attack force. i think that "layer of uncertainty" adds to the "drama". let your imagination run wild...

-"rimworld is focused on storytelling and characters" <--- adding more combat elements doesn't impede the storytelling in any way. those are two different and separate systems.

"a classic FOW only delays the information you need, so you just spam detection stuff to see the enemies" <----- that is an assumption based on an elaborate imbalance that you try to portray.. ie : what makes you so sure that you can "spam" those scouts and radars and whatever? and even if you can spam them, what makes you sure they would detect enemy positions accurately?  in games like gnomoria, they have FOW but even though you can have as many torches and guards patrolling the area, the enemies are still able to sneak up on you.. which isn't much different to raiders dropping on top of you.. but the main difference is : enemies able to ambush you is based on player lapse in judgement, while raiders dropping down from the sky on top of you is just RNGods screwing with you.

------------------------------

meanwhile this is what tynan stated :

QuoteThis actually used to be in the game back in June. I took it out after seeing people get really confused and blindsided by stuff from outside the fog of war.

Consider: Raiders approach, some muffalo go mad and attack them and there's a dramatic battle. With FoW over them, you never see any of it.

Actually, the FoW system is still in the game, but is only used for undiscovered underground features.

I may re-consider this some day, but at this point hiding information does not seem like the right direction to go for story generation. To me that's more a strategy game mechanic, and it only really works well in multiplayer strategy games where human players can fake each other out for strategic advantage.

It's one of those ideas that seems good but just doesn't work out that well. RimWorld has had and lost several of those so far.

the gist of it is : the FOW prevents "stories" and "events" from being witnessed by players if it occurred covered in FOW.

but that mostly depends on "perspectives".. ie : if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound if no one hears it?

my view on this is that : if none of your colonists is within viewing distance of the "event" or "story" taking place, then you can just let your imagination run wild.

ie : there could be notifications of an event happening, but if you wanna witness what's actually going on, then you should send someone to scout and "witness" the event occurring.

ie : a notification pops out that says : "you hear some fighting in the distance. you should send someone to see what's going on.." and then the player can send someone to do that. (if they want to.. or feel free to ignore it and let the "mystery" build up) like sending someone in the morning to the location pointed by the notification and then seeing corpses scattered about and a severely wounded bear attacks you.. <------ that's a cool story. since "surprise" and "mystery" adds to the drama.

------------------

anyways, in the older alphas, people were "confused" by the FOW coz there were not enough notification systems in place, and a lot of new features that are implement right now were not implemented before.

so yea, feature suggestions that were thumbed down before, should ALWAYS be reassessed for validity by checking how things measure up to the new alpha.

-------------------------

edit :

here are more sample notifications for events occurring covered in FOW :

-"you hear a loud animal howl in the distance" <-- mad animal event with no witness. clicking on notification will point you at it's location (what kind of animal made that noise? it's a mystery)

-"you detect a drop pod crashing from the sky in the distance" <--- when something crashes via drop pods on FOW. (is it cargo pods? what sort of items? is it raiders? is it crashed spacer? what is it? it's a mystery.. hehe)

-"you sense a malevolent presence drop from the sky in the distance" <---- when an evil/poison ship drops... (did it drop on top of a marsh? can you build stuff around it? it's a mystery until you send someone to scout)

etc.. there would be notifications for most of the events. but the details of those events are kept as a mystery until you send someone to investigate it.

ie : you only know what your colonists know..

sometimes imaginative speculations due to the "unknown" is the best storyteller.

---------------------

edit :

the comms console can also take part in the "storytelling"

ie : before you build a console, traders will just drop by without notification (you'd just eventually see them in front of your base)

but with comms console built, traders can send notifications like :

"we're sending some traders, we hope to receive your hospitality" or some of those events where someone is being chased by raiders or maybe some bounty events. etc..

i agree 100% with kegereneku.

This is not the game for "gotcha" events.  There is no way to iplement something this pervasive into the game and make it "optional" and it changes the entire style and feel of the game.  I don't think it will happen and i'm very against it.

Quote"Guard & Patrol" require the manpower and the ability to cover the distance to actually see the threat in time. It serve no point if you can't make it work or if it make no difference with normal Notification.

<--- notifications can just alert the player of the general location of an event the same way it does now. but depending on the type of event, guard and patrols are essentially just an automated attack system, like walking meat-turrets that the player doesn't need to draft to deal against minor threats like mad animals or hopefully against predators hunting prey. (a great job that would be good for assassins, nobles, etc.. who doesn't do much other than idle around). but it is up to the player to reassess the situation whenever it reveals itself.

Quote- the concept of "Unknown Threats" is (mostly) incompatible with Events in that it negate the distinctions between them, and with the calmer/managing pace of the normal game.

the "mystery" doesn't negate the distinction between events. figuring out the details of the event is up to the players.

ie : will you ignore the possible threat? downplay it cocksure of your defenses? or would you be up in arms waiting for the apocalypse?

that tense atmosphere between "mystery" and "revelation" is rife with drama.

Quote- "Unseen Threats" cause a problem where you have to define and balance colonist "sight" as well as when you are notified, because you'll need to be, every. single. time. a. new. threat. is. spotted. And even then it will encourage Savescuming as you'll likely see the threat only when it is too late (unseen enemy wrecking havoc in place you can't afford to lose for example).
For some players Predators are already way too much...

notifications can just give you a clue of the nature of the event while pointing at it's general location. this would give the player enough information whether to ignore it or not. which provides the element of "risk" against people with "hubris".

there's also ironman mode if you hate savescumming.. but savescumming and dev mode are available to most players. they use it if they feel like they wanna use it.. the question is : would they be compelled to use it?

my answer would be : nope. i think that mostly depends on the players themselves. many people have played other games with FOW before and it doesn't automatically compel them to savescum. this is just a biased assumption on your part.

as for the predators. the problem is that the game doesn't automatically sense them as an "enemy" so they can bypass the turrets and you need to manually attack them. this sounds more like a bug that will eventually get fixed.

----

edit :

sample notifications for events when they occurred in FOW :

-"you hear the sound of digging somewhere in the distance". click on notification to point you at the location of the event. (is it sappers? is it an infestation? how many?)

-"you hear the howl of a wild animal somewhere in the distance". click on notification to point you at the location of the event. (is it a mad squirrel? a bear? how many?)

-"you see the silhouette of a large majestic creature somewhere in the distance". click on notification to point you at the location of the event. (search and hunt for the elusive and rare thrumbo)

etc..

the "mystery" is part of the story.

this is a thing ive railed on extensively before, an me an Keg have had angry rude words about it before, an it always comes back to "we dont know".

However, those conversations also involved me devising a basic design wherein colonists actually reacted to threats they came into contact with even if the player wasnt there. it was theoretical then.. an now its not. Hell, its current implementation is pretty close to what i proposed then so thats rad. In fact, im calling that a win for me :P anyone that really wants to actually discover stuff should be comforted by the fact that that behavior is literally the first step to implementing any kind of FoW SPECIFICALLY because it removes alot of the "gotcha" from actually not seeing the greater world. Tynan doesnt want to dick anyone over. On the other hand, RW needs some uncertainty in it. It NEEDS it. Thats why so many people dig mountain tunnels even after they are constantly made harder to do. Its specifically to see what they can find. Because they dont know whats there.

So take heart other seekers of mystery. Though mean words may be uttered backhandedly at you for suggesting it, your ideas are not inherently bad. You are not a bad person for uttering words about something that interests you. You may one day even get what you want.

Note: If you already know that FoW is like using a Jackhammer to sculpt a tiny Diamonds, skip to rexx1888 quote
Also this post is chockfull of rhetorical questions. Meaning that I don't expect answers. Just saying.
And I should really stop making RIVER OF TEXT on topic that have already been discussed to death (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=12366.0).

Quote from: keylocke on May 02, 2016, 06:27:46 PM
and yea, i've read the links in kegereneku's post and his arguments and here's my take on it :

Thank you for your long rereading but there is many things you missed along their consequences (even with RIVER OF TEXTS I expected better). I obviously know that "other game work with FoW". You however don't seem to have considered WHY other game would use or not a FoW in the first place.

Some game are simply NOT MEANT to have FoW (see the Chess example here (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=12366.msg132555#msg132555)).

Other example : Why are FoW-strategy game using Expandable Scout ? Camera ? Long Range Sensor ? Stealth Unit ? ...rather than unique, slow and irreplaceable pawns with complex and hard upkeep that can't fight alone ? That's because they have different dynamic that you can't simply slap on Rimworld.

"FOG OF WAR" ISN'T A GOAL. ONLY AN OPTIONAL MEAN. A MEAN THAT YOU MIGHT NEVER NEED.

Quoteadding more combat elements doesn't impede the storytelling in any way

You'll find out that it does. Depending of who you let define "more" and how many time you let him do it.
Also, yes the very concept of "Fog of War" work completely against Rimworld Storytelling, see below

Quotemy view on this is that : if none of your colonists is within viewing distance of the "event" or "story" taking place, then you can just let your imagination run wild.

Following that logic, all best-seller books should have blank pages, all movies be black screen, and Dwarf Fortress should only show one square at a time to let your imagination run wilder.
I send you to my Alfred Hitchcock point here (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=12366.msg132555#msg132555) about creating suspense versus "ass pull".

Quoteie : there could be notifications of an event happening, but if you wanna witness what's actually going on, then you should send someone to scout and "witness" the event occurring.

Sorry but that's "POINTLESS HASSLE - THE GAME".
Why POINTLESS : Because ultimately you WANT the information to plan your survival or just to have FUN.
Why HASSLE : Do you seriously want to send a SCOUT every time a drop pods fall ? Do you want 5 colons on 10 patrolling the entire map for 50% of their time rather than... interacting with other features ? Will you follow each one of them in case they find something out of BLIND LUCK, to be warned soon enough ?

Quoteanyways, in the older alphas, people were "confused" by the FOW coz there were not enough notification systems in place

Quote<--- notifications can just alert the player of the general location of an event the same way it does now. but depending on the type of event, guard and patrols are essentially just an automated attack system

You are basically negating your argumentation for FoW and Patrol.
Even Scouting barely survive... Reading and reading you again your argumentation now have for only purpose to justify colonist walking from known point to another known point, to avoid the frustration of not knowing the smallest details of an event you already know about. Where is the fun in that ? It is in wasting your time ? It is in Trial&Error savescumming ? Is Realism orgasmic ?

Better idea : Let's pretend that during the 15 days long seasons the colonist already patrolled the map.
It's an idea so awesome it require absolutely nothing to do and meanwhile you can do a lot of other stuff.

Quote from: rexx1888 on May 03, 2016, 11:42:23 AM
this is a thing ive railed on extensively before, an me an Keg have had angry rude words about it before, an it always comes back to "we dont know".

However, those conversations also involved me devising a basic design wherein colonists actually reacted to threats they came into contact with even if the player wasnt there. it was theoretical then.. an now its not. Hell, its current implementation is pretty close to what i proposed then so thats rad. In fact, im calling that a win for me :P anyone that really wants to actually discover stuff should be comforted by the fact that that behavior is literally the first step to implementing any kind of FoW SPECIFICALLY because it removes alot of the "gotcha" from actually not seeing the greater world. Tynan doesnt want to dick anyone over. On the other hand, RW needs some uncertainty in it. It NEEDS it. Thats why so many people dig mountain tunnels even after they are constantly made harder to do. Its specifically to see what they can find. Because they dont know whats there.

So take heart other seekers of mystery. Though mean words may be uttered backhandedly at you for suggesting it, your ideas are not inherently bad. You are not a bad person for uttering words about something that interests you. You may one day even get what you want.

After answering Keylocke I'm happy to discuss with someone constructive like you.
Yes it was a win for you, suggesting that ""Colonist React to Threat Without Player Supervision"", who could have guessed it was possible without FoW & Dedicated Patrol ?!

Yes, Rimworld need "Uncertainty", Precise ones, built to minimize pointless hassle yet maximize Decision-Making and the "Gocha" effect.
We don't send Colonist check every walls to know what material its made off. Don't we ? That's because the "Go Look" gameplay serve no purpose, while the "plan a minning effort + contingency" should be favored at all cost.

Thing is : You can have that "Uncertainty" even (or especially) with the current omniscience ("Enhanced User Interface" as I call it).
The number of potential outcome is linked to how much data you are given at any time. This is the difference between Tic-Tac-Toe and a game of Go.

I'm out.

QuoteSome game are simply NOT MEANT to have FoW (see the Chess example here).

sure, "some" games are not meant for FOW, however whether rimworld is compatible with FOW is still debatable which is why it keeps getting suggested by people. i am one of those people who thinks it IS compatible. just because you disagree doesn't make you automatically right and vice versa. you've been wrong a few times before especially when it comes to what is impossible to be added to rimworld.

QuoteYou'll find out that it does. Depending of who you let define "more" and how many time you let him do it.

again, this is just your personal bias. have you ever played games like sunless sea? "mystery" adds to the storytelling by letting you uncover details of the events instead of just giving you an information overload. if a notification gives you enough clues and points you out to location of the event. the player will have enough information to make rational choices, but the details are hidden so the tension between the "mystery" and the "revelation" is rife with drama.

you seem to downplay how powerful an impact "mystery" has over how a story progresses. an information overload tends to be quite a boring narrative.

QuoteSorry but that's "POINTLESS HASSLE - THE GAME".
Why POINTLESS : Because ultimately you WANT the information to plan your survival or just to have FUN.
Why HASSLE : Do you seriously want to send a SCOUT every time a drop pods fall ? Do you want 5 colons on 10 patrolling the entire map for 50% of their time rather than... interacting with other features ? Will you follow each one of them in case they find something out of BLIND LUCK, to be warned soon enough ?

you have this tendency of making strawman arguments that is easily debunked. a notification can provide enough clues and information to warrant the need to send a scout to figure out a detail. plus, who says you need "10 men patrolling 50% of the time"? haha. the patrols are like mobile meat-turret jobs for your assassins/nobles/etc.. people who are usually idle coz they have no other tasks to do. patrols main job are for intercepting minor threats like mad animals and predators.

as for raids : maybe different raids have different notifications than normal cargo pods? that is something that is easily fixed. however, the details of those raids, like what are their equipment? how many people do they have? etc.. i think those things should be withheld coz it breaks the tension..

if you see the enemies are weak or very strong, you already automatically know without FOW. this information overload decreases drama. it's just a flat out narrative.

but with FOW, tension in every battle is palpable.. this tension is dramatic, coz you don't know if you're facing just a few enemies or a swarm. different people will react differently to this "unknown" provocation. some people will be aggressive and will try to send scouts to figure out more details, other people bunker down fearing the unknown.

the game can provide you with enough clues via notification to prepare accordingly. but the "mystery" is a powerful tool in storytelling, it makes even normal encounters more dramatic.

QuoteYou are basically negating your argumentation for FoW and Patrol.
Even Scouting barely survive... Reading and reading you again your argumentation now have for only purpose to justify colonist walking from known point to another known point, to avoid the frustration of not knowing the smallest details of an event you already know about. Where is the fun in that ? It is in wasting your time ? It is in Trial&Error savescumming ? Is Realism orgasmic ?

Better idea : Let's pretend that during the 15 days long seasons the colonist already patrolled the map.
It's an idea so awesome it require absolutely nothing to do and meanwhile you can do a lot of other stuff.

you seem to be misconstruing what a "patrol" and "scouts" are.

a "scout" is just someone you can send to investigate an event that occurred hidden in FOW if the notifications "intrigued" you. ie : if you think it warrants your attention. you are in no way required to send scouts all the time.

a "patrol" are just idle people you have around that you can automatically set to walk around in groups automatically attacking mad animals and predators that are within your patrol route. they're like a temporary group of mobile meat-turrets.

so, "wasting time" isn't exactly what they're doing. most of your assumptions are based on your faulty interpretations of what each tasks are supposed to do.

It is not surprising that any proposal that hints of FoW brings out the usual highly vocal suspects of FoW haters.  Let me advise you that it is useless to try and argue with them.  Rational arguments will fall on deaf ears.  They are unable to recognize that games like chess can and have been successfully modified to include FoW.  The question of FoW is largely one of preferred style, but they are unable to imagine any style other than what they have experienced as adding anything to the game.  To put it succinctly, they fear the unknown.  The only way to ever convince them of the playability of FoW is to actually implement FoW.  I suggest that if you wish to discuss your ideas that have any FoW related features, that you completely ignore those who will declare its evils no matter how much text they vomit up.  Do not try and argue with them and just carry on as if they are a crazed Muffalo attacking Raiders outside your sphere of knowledge.  To do otherwise is an exercise in futility and will let them derail what might otherwise be an interesting thread.

Quote from: Colonist51 on May 02, 2016, 03:28:54 PM
First of all, if you don't like it, nobody would force you to play with FoW. This is why I propose to make it optional (like permadeath).

People with no experience in programming believe making something optional makes things easier, not harder.

All permadeath needed was a limit on the number of savegame files. FOV is an order of magnitude harder, we're talking about new colonist behaviour. Suddenly you end up designing and balancing two games - one with FOV, one without.

Guard duty as you describe is easy to do with a special allowed zone and a colonist set to aggressive mode. There's just no point because you can see everything a 10 miles ahead.

The role of notification messages is fulfilled by distant gunfire. If a trade caravan encounters a mechanoid pack, you won't miss it.

FOV is something better used in a survival game. Rimworld is a colony management game. For better or worse, Rimworld has no mystery. There is no exploration except mining, and mining is as dull as it sounds. You might discover some steel, sometimes plasteel or small amount of components. Resources to build stuff with.

hmm.. in the older alphas, i agree that there might've been plenty of people confused by the FOW. (which was why tynan removed it) coz iirc, the notification system back then was still underdeveloped.

however, we now have these kinds of notifications :

(http://i.imgur.com/auEAKux.jpg)

clicking on this icon will point the player to the location of the event and even if the player can't see the details of that event if there was FOW, the current notification system already gives sufficient information for the player to rationally make their decisions.

+1 for someone seeing this an knowing that some ppl want some unknowns in their RW experience :D

Concerning FoW i'd say it would be cool to have it as an event, or at nighttime. By event i mean something like a disaster. Now, at nighttime, it would be awesome if you could have this feeling that you are staying inside your colony, where it's safe from the unknown, you know?

Anyway, concerning guard posts and duties i think that would be cool but i don't think they should be focusing on that this much. I mean, we don't need patrol areas *and* guard posts *and* guard duties etc.  I would say, if you assign a colonist to a guard post, then he will basically live there and other colonists will bring him food etc. he can take walks outside so he avoids cabin fever, but basically that's what he will be doing now. And after a week or two he could complain that he needs to be back at the "normal" jobs for a while. And it would be *awesome* if it was his duty to also reset the traps that have sprung - this way you can have an automated defense system, but i'd suggest that this becomes effective in mid-game (in early game turrets would be more effective and having a guard post would be more consuming than providing) but yeah, i completely agree on that one.

hell that reminds me, putting aside FOW for a sec. I still kinda want a patrol or guardpost thing, because i am sick to death of hungry bears ninja mauling people.

legit, winter is the worst. i basically have to go an cull the bear population if i dont want them eating someone, an on giant maps that is a pain in the can. Legit though, since bears might enter a base an not be hungry, the turrets ignore them. everyone ignores them. an then boom, three days later they're ravenous an maul a dog or something.

On that note, id also love it if i got a notification when a pawn went into survival mode. i want to know if a pawn is running for his life or not. Thats important. Doesnt fix animals being eaten, but its a step in the right direction.

Im against fog of war but I like the guard idea use those Assasins for a passive mood boost or you know not just have them mindlessly wandering.

I know I'm attempting to say my piece in an emotionally charged thread, but... I don't like the idea of Fog of War in this game. I don't hate it, mind you - it works well in situations like undiscovered rooms/caverns. But for your plain, everyday events it would just be a hindrance.

I'm checking the map ingame constantly for stuff like wild game, minerals in mountains, harvestable trees/plants, etc. In addition to being convenient, it's also a good distraction when the base falls into an easy monotony. If the base were all I could see, I'd be terribly bored, and sending a single guy out to explore these patches of land would be time consuming and boring.

the ONE advantage I see to Fog of War is that it stands to make combat a little more thrilling, but since Rimworld isn't a combat-heavy game this doesn't seem like a worthy trade-off for the amount that would be lost.

I think many of the best benefits to Fog of War could be easily mimicked by putting gameplay elements into "colonist vision". Stuff like making colonists less accurate when shooting in the dark so they need perimeter lights, or giving them a mood debuff in darkness outside (I know it already exists for inside). But considering that constant resource management inside and outside the colony proper is a heavy component of this game, FOW would cost more than it would give.

Of course, all IMO.

keylocke,
You have the burden of proof and you can't just dismiss others opinions as biased.
You've yet to prove that Rimworld game-experience would profit/lose nothing with (your vision of) FoW, like many people who limit their contribution and analysis to "+1 it sound cool, I'm not responsible if it fail anyway"

If this answer don't satisfy you, just read my previous post again. I'm sorry but I consider it still answer you. On the question of suspense and Drama, I can't do clearer than the full "Hitchcock argumentation (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=12366.msg132555#msg132555)")

Quote from: Darth Fool on May 03, 2016, 04:31:14 PM
It is not surprising that any proposal that hints of FoW brings out the usual highly vocal suspects of FoW haters.  Let me advise you that it is useless to try and argue with them.  Rational arguments will fall on deaf ears.[.......]

Yet of course it can't possibly apply to you, doesn't it ?
"Burden of proof put aside" if someone were to argue that Rimworld should be "upgraded" into a FOG-LESS self-generating Epic Narrative game precisely by making more and finer Events, by adding diplomacy, adding easily visible group of travelers, by showing the inner torment of every body regardless of line of sight... all sort of idea negated/destroyed or plain incompatible with FoW.

If this were to happen ... you could be the highly-vocal haters incapable of understanding that his (childish?) vision of game-design would deprive everybody from "greater potential" that even you would approve if only you weren't stuck up on a monomania.

Please of course, take no offense in the purely hypothetical situation above. After-all, I can't be true if you don't agree doesn't it ?
Btw, I'm pretty sure Chess-players would mind quite vocally if you forced them to play on different boards to allow "optional blind-chess".

Quote from: MAKAIROSI on May 04, 2016, 10:01:48 AM
Concerning FoW i'd say it would be cool to have it as an event, or at nighttime. By event i mean something like a disaster. Now, at nighttime, it would be awesome if you could have this feeling that you are staying inside your colony, where it's safe from the unknown, you know?
[.......]

POST OF THE YEAR ! An out-of-the-box suggestion, so we don't get stuck with only two ideas.
I suggested myself some "Heavy fog (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=9755.msg99874#msg99874)" as Events.
Also suggested clearly notified "stealth" events which differ from normal gameplay calling for a minimal "Guard/Draft" mechanic, all without imposing a permanent curse of blindness to everybody.

Quote from: rexx1888 on May 04, 2016, 10:10:41 AM
hell that reminds me, putting aside FOW for a sec. I still kinda want a patrol or guardpost thing, because i am sick to death of hungry bears ninja mauling people.

Behind most suggestions there's always a much simpler need that can be solved by a much more practical solution.
Some time ago people were asking for a mean to have a colonist escort another one, now that they react to threat and can be followed by animals I'm betting this is much less important.

Still, can't keep myself from saying that with a FOW you would surely end up asking for ways to know where predators are without having to micromanage scout, costly patrols, or send fully-able soldier.


Note to self : Stop answering the same topic ad infinitum

Quote from: Kegereneku on May 04, 2016, 08:38:16 PM

Note to self : Stop answering the same topic ad infinitum

can you, can you please do that. i like reading others thoughts on why they find FOW bad because they are varied an filled with their feelings. Your views are always filled with stuff you think proves your point like you're a designer on staff... which you arent. It muddies the waters somewhat having an overzealous naysayer constantly showing up an expounding ad infinitum about how this or that idea is terrible. not to mention you have managed to derail so many of these threads that way.

so lets all get back on track, anyone got some other suggestions to do with guard posts an patrols, ignoring for the moment the FOW stuff which was a footnote in the OP. personally, i still think itd be useful to have a dedicated job to make sure predators dont go the full Arnie on folks during winter.

@Kegereneku

When we're discussing these things we're basically trying to make our experience (and the experience of those who come after us) better. I think it would not be wise to experiment with such gameplay-altering additions without being able to at least visualise the result.

Trying to imagine FoW in daytime, having to manually lead each individual for a simple hunt or mining operation is extremely frustrating and tiresome. At night people will usually go to sleep, which is safe to say, you don't really need to see the entire map. *However* there has been an instance where i was being sieged and the siegers were sleeping at night so, in order to take them by surprise, i ordered all my colonists to sleep during the siege and attack when the enemy was sleeping. It was literally the safest and quickest fight, and i was really glad that the game "allowed" such a tactic.

So if people really want to implement FoW then the safest way (apart from an event) would be to use it at night, but also, in the early-game. Let's say a tech would remove it altogether when the sieges start.

But if that's the case, then why bother to put it in anyway. It seems like the things they can do (and already have on their list of doing) with this game are endless, so would anyone really want them to focus on this?

To sum up: i think the safest way to implement FoW (apart from an event) would be to only make it active at night, and only in the early game.

Quote from: rexx1888 on May 04, 2016, 10:00:29 AM
+1 for someone seeing this an knowing that some ppl want some unknowns in their RW experience :D

yea, most of the time the jillions of cargo pods and visitor events that keep popping up is like TMI (too much info).. this information overload made these events feel like less of an "event" because it does not even inspire curiosity. the lack of FOW makes these events worth less than 5 seconds of my time coz of TMI.

i don't even bother counting the dozens of raiders or mechs attacking me or what items they have.
since their movements are too predictable without FOW, so all i need is the location and direction from where they spawn (shown by the notification) and what type of raid it is (also shown by the notification)

meanwhile, splinter forces of the raider AI trying to outflank the player are easily discovered coz of the lack of FOW, so it robs the player of the surprise of getting outflanked.

-----

knowing what items raiders have or characteristics they have or if they are trying to outflank you is TMI (if they are beyond your viewing range). it kinda breaks immersion knowing everything, because the game robs you of surprises.


edit :

@kegereneku : do you even read my counter-arguments or are just apt in dismissing them coz it disagrees with you?

anyways, i hope this new post enlightens you about how FOW robs you of the surprise of getting outflanked. meanwhile the current notification systems already provides the players the necessary information they need to make rational decisions.

TMI is information overload.

when it comes to storytelling, giving enough information is good, but TMI is bad coz robbing the players of mystery also robs them of curiosity. it robs players of surprises.

----

edit :

Quote"Burden of proof put aside" if someone were to argue that Rimworld should be "upgraded" into a FOG-LESS self-generating Epic Narrative game precisely by making more and finer Events, by adding diplomacy, adding easily visible group of travelers, by showing the inner torment of every body regardless of line of sight... all sort of idea negated/destroyed or plain incompatible with FoW.

If this were to happen ... you could be the highly-vocal haters incapable of understanding that his (childish?) vision of game-design would deprive everybody from "greater potential" that even you would approve if only you weren't stuck up on a monomania.

to address your specific points :

what happens when a visitor or an event is spawned without FOW?

1) you see them spawn and start walking towards their destination
2) you check if their path is clear of hostiles
3) you realize there are no hostiles. you check if they have anything interesting or doing anything interesting.
4) nothing interesting caught your attention. your curiosity is gone in less than 1 minute.
5) the event has easily become a non-event. with zero interaction from your colonists.

it's that resolution to an event with the lack of pawn interaction which is bugging me, because the player already has all the information it needs without even lifting a finger.

your colonists have ceased to become a witness to their own story as it is unfolding.

-------

edit :

besides, having FOW will not prevent the development and addition of new events as you try to falsely claim.

since most events occur along with notifications. it's the most important point that you keep ignoring, since notifications already provide enough information to make rational choices on making risk/reward decisions.

having FOW with these events would give them a "rogue-like" appeal, since not only will it inspire curiosity, that veil of mystery also provides enough space for the "unexpected" to occur.

----------------------

edit :

lastly, the FOW system is already within rimworld. it was just removed by tynan. (coz some people complained about it when the notification systems were still underdeveloped)

but several alphas later, things have changed. we now have a very informative notification system.

the only thing we ask is to have a toggleable option for players who wants the FOW to be enabled.

i really don't get why kegereneku is trying to prevent that.

Quote from: rexx1888 on May 04, 2016, 10:10:41 AM
hell that reminds me, putting aside FOW for a sec. I still kinda want a patrol or guardpost thing, because i am sick to death of hungry bears ninja mauling people.

legit, winter is the worst. i basically have to go an cull the bear population if i dont want them eating someone, an on giant maps that is a pain in the can. Legit though, since bears might enter a base an not be hungry, the turrets ignore them. everyone ignores them. an then boom, three days later they're ravenous an maul a dog or something.

It's currently more of a bug that anything else. Turrets shoot manhunter animals, but they don't shoot hungry bears.

Does it make sense to keep the mad animal event when we already have hungry bears ? What do you think ?

Quote from: TynanThis actually used to be in the game back in June. I took it out after seeing people get really confused and blindsided by stuff from outside the fog of war.

This highlights a major difference between Tynan and Toady. Toady, the developer of Dwarf Fortress, is more than happy to have adamantium veins which are esentially hollow vertical pipes leading straight to Hell. He's happy to throw terrible surprises (a.k.a. FUN) at player. Meanwhile Tynan is very concerned about upsetting players, and no events or enemies exist that destroy a carefully built colony on its own.

It's not surprising Rimworld players are not using the term FUN in the sense that DF players do. Some DF converts do use it that way, and they get blank stares in return.

Quote from: b0rsuk on May 03, 2016, 05:19:26 PM

Quote from: Colonist51 on May 02, 2016, 03:28:54 PM
First of all, if you don't like it, nobody would force you to play with FoW. This is why I propose to make it optional (like permadeath).

FOV is something better used in a survival game. Rimworld is a colony management game. For better or worse, Rimworld has no mystery. There is no exploration except mining, and mining is as dull as it sounds. You might discover some steel, sometimes plasteel or small amount of components. Resources to build stuff with.

^This. I like the idea of a Rimworld-like game having FoV, but I don't think it would be a good fit in Rimworld itself. Most of the suspense in Rimworld is in the act of the raid/infestation/psychic ship appearing. As attractive as the Great Unknown seems in raid situations, it'd be a massive hindrance when hunting, harvesting, or collecting pods.

I still argue that this Vision=Security can be simulated by giving mood/vision buffs to colonists in well-lit areas, and then maybe adding torches or outdoor lampposts in strategic locations around the colony. This would make the wilderness dangerous for your colonists at night (which is when unexpected events like raids are likely to occur) but won't severely change the game.

I would play the game that pro-FoV people are suggesting, for sure. I just don't think that game is Rimworld.

Quote from: Harold3456 on May 05, 2016, 01:46:04 AM

Quote from: b0rsuk on May 03, 2016, 05:19:26 PM
FOV is something better used in a survival game. Rimworld is a colony management game. For better or worse, Rimworld has no mystery. There is no exploration except mining, and mining is as dull as it sounds. You might discover some steel, sometimes plasteel or small amount of components. Resources to build stuff with.

^This. I like the idea of a Rimworld-like game having FoV, but I don't think it would be a good fit in Rimworld itself. Most of the suspense in Rimworld is in the act of the raid/infestation/psychic ship appearing. As attractive as the Great Unknown seems in raid situations, it'd be a massive hindrance when hunting, harvesting, or collecting pods.

But it means that mystery only happens when the Storyteller rolls dice. Mystery could be a game system instead, supported by mechanics like FOV.

And there is less emergence here than in a system composed of FOV and stuff. Events are scheduled and rarely overlap. I raise an eyebrow if a manhunter pack comes with a psychic drone - I was a bit worried because Freckles was caught in the open and had to spend night in a remote soil farm. The result is that each event has a definite solution, and can be played by the book. When was the last time I had two sieges at once ? More than 2 alphas ago. Do you remember a trade caravan that ran into manhunter pack ? Me neither. A siege with a solar flare, is it even possible ? I don't believe it, solar flare is the time to make a campfire in the growing zone and for food in the fridge to spoil a little. And I play on Randy. On Cassie and Phoebe it's probably even more formulaic.

Quote from: b0rsuk on May 05, 2016, 01:21:15 AM

Quote from: TynanThis actually used to be in the game back in June. I took it out after seeing people get really confused and blindsided by stuff from outside the fog of war.

This highlights a major difference between Tynan and Toady. Toady, the developer of Dwarf Fortress, is more than happy to have adamantium veins which are esentially hollow vertical pipes leading straight to Hell. He's happy to throw terrible surprises (a.k.a. FUN) at player. Meanwhile Tynan is very concerned about upsetting players, and no events or enemies exist that destroy a carefully built colony on its own.

It's not surprising Rimworld players are not using the term FUN in the sense that DF players do. Some DF converts do use it that way, and they get blank stares in return.

^this.

not only are the events becoming more "formulaic" and predictable, but the lack of a FOW makes the player supremely aware of everything going on. which is why the game lacks the surprise you'd get from rogue-likes other than an RNG roll.

it robs the players of the uncertainty of risk/reward decisions coz every single piece of information is already available to them. it's like having spoilers to all the plot in the story forcibly turned on.

this type of "fun" is a matter of paradigm shifts, so i do not expect everyone would be convinced to agree with FOW. but having a toggle option for FOW doesn't really break the game.

FOW is already IN the game, it's just disabled/modified at the moment, so that it only hides the areas covered by mountain.

a toggle option to turn a global FOW on/off would be fine.

...and if no event can wipe out a colony on its own, why limit overlapping events ?! I haven't looked into the code, but it certainly feels like they're limited because events overlap so rarely.

The result of the policy of not upsetting players is a large and vocal faction of players who want permanent colonies, raising children, craftable bionics, personal shields, brain surgeries. In other words, building the nicest colony possible, with a side minigame of tower defense.

Have you noticed how harsh requirement for impressive rooms are ? You need silver floors or multiple statues to make it lil bit impressive. That's not a survival game, that's some kind of achievement from Sim City. The person who coded room stats (it wasn't Tynan) must have been from the 'permanent colonies' faction.

plot twist.. i am one of those whom you'd call the permanent colonies faction.. dundunduuun!!  ;D

but that topic is too off-topic for this post, so civil war averted. (to be continued)

edit : though i also agree that some of those impressiveness requirements are too imbalanced at the moment.

------

anyways, back to topic.

@harold :

QuoteAs attractive as the Great Unknown seems in raid situations, it'd be a massive hindrance when hunting, harvesting, or collecting pods.

i sorta agree that having FOW would make these more difficult, but not impossible.

for hunting, there were suggestions that it should be tasked as a bill tied to a crafting station (like a butcher table or like a crafting spot) so players can just set the animal types to be hunted and the hunters will automatically hunt those animal types. it also makes it easier to cancel hunting by suspending a bill instead of trying to cancel it one at a time.

edit : to elaborate how hunting would work as a bill :
-players set a hunting bill and chooses which animals would be hunted (maybe even set the maximum range for hunting)
-once a bill is setup, anyone with the hunting work enabled will walk around the hunting zone until they find an animal that fits the bill within their visual range.
-hunter then automatically tags that animal for hunting and begins hunting.
-this is how hunting works in real life. hunters don't just make for a beeline automatically knowing where their prey is. that just takes the joy out of "hunting".

as for cargo pods, they are often accompanied by notifications, so even with FOW, players would be aware of their locations.

unlike those suspenseful ancient rooms with cryptosleep chambers that are covered with FOW, there's no "surprise" factor to cargo pods. currently when a drop pod lands, players automatically know what item it is. it's like you get to cherry-pick "free-stuffs" with minimal effort. so it kinda cheapens the event into a non-event.

no more, "a cargo pod dropped somewhere.. i wonder what it is?"
-"not worth my effort, it's probably more warg meat"
-5 mins later, "i thought it was useless crap, but omygash! it's 20 gold pieces!! today is xmas!"

^that

surprises are fun coz it makes even the most mundane events able to inspire curiosity.

The problem with all this is the Ai, when there was FOW (yes it existed in RW) the AI had the advantage and just knew where all your stuff was whereas you had no clue where they were, to reverse this would have meant MASSIVE AI code changes, the kind you just dont want undertake. So FOW was removed which levelled the playing field.

i don't think that the AI knowing where you are is necessarily a disadvantage. i think it actually levels the playing field since the player is often smarter than the AI.

let's face it. rimworld AI for a normal raid tends to be just a straightforward dash towards your base, there's nothing complicated about that.

same thing with sappers, but they try to waste their time attacking obstacles blocking their way rather than going around it.

and as for sieges? they just stand around waiting for their mortars to get built while player snipes them one at a time.

-------

even with FOW or not, those raider AI doesn't really change that much. their only advantage is overwhelming numbers.

ambushes and outflanking the player is one of the few things the game could add for making raids more challenging without increasing the raiders. but AI ambushes and flanking are pointless without FOW.

---------------

edit : the current notification system in rimworld can already tell the player the location and direction of the threat, it even tells the player the nature of the threat. so the players would no longer be confused when they are getting attacked, from where will the attack come from, and what kind of threat are they gonna face.

those information can already be known simply by reading the notification popups which provide the player all the necessary information they need to make rational choices.

Quote from: b0rsuk on May 05, 2016, 01:54:07 AM

Quote from: Harold3456 on May 05, 2016, 01:46:04 AM

Quote from: b0rsuk on May 03, 2016, 05:19:26 PM
FOV is something better used in a survival game. Rimworld is a colony management game. For better or worse, Rimworld has no mystery. There is no exploration except mining, and mining is as dull as it sounds. You might discover some steel, sometimes plasteel or small amount of components. Resources to build stuff with.

^This. I like the idea of a Rimworld-like game having FoV, but I don't think it would be a good fit in Rimworld itself. Most of the suspense in Rimworld is in the act of the raid/infestation/psychic ship appearing. As attractive as the Great Unknown seems in raid situations, it'd be a massive hindrance when hunting, harvesting, or collecting pods.

But it means that mystery only happens when the Storyteller rolls dice. Mystery could be a game system instead, supported by mechanics like FOV.

And there is less emergence here than in a system composed of FOV and stuff. Events are scheduled and rarely overlap. I raise an eyebrow if a manhunter pack comes with a psychic drone - I was a bit worried because Freckles was caught in the open and had to spend night in a remote soil farm. The result is that each event has a definite solution, and can be played by the book. When was the last time I had two sieges at once ? More than 2 alphas ago. Do you remember a trade caravan that ran into manhunter pack ? Me neither. A siege with a solar flare, is it even possible ? I don't believe it, solar flare is the time to make a campfire in the growing zone and for food in the fridge to spoil a little. And I play on Randy. On Cassie and Phoebe it's probably even more formulaic.

You don't get solar flares the same time as raids? Talk about lucky! Just in this last colony I've had (which, according to the stats, has gone on 22 hours) I've had solar flares happen twice at the worst possible time, and a "ZZZZT" happen a third!

In addition, I recently got the pleasure of witnessing a tribe of raiders run headlong into the mechanite pod that had been plaguing me. That was a fun fight to watch.

I don't disagree that mystery could be fun, I just don't think it's necessary for the fun of THIS game, and it'll hinder other areas of of it. The "man vs nature" survival elements could be beefed up a bit, but that can be done through vision debuffs at night, nocturnal predators , etc.

As for "mining is boring", in a related thread I proposed stuff that can be found in the mountains for this reason. But again, this game isn't explicitly about exploration, it's about surviving, and the small thrills gained by not knowing your map will be dwarfed by the frustration of having to patrol for hunt animals (I don't know if you've proposed pop-ups for this hunt problem yet, but using pop-ups to replace all the things lost from FoW would be pretty overwhelming).

PS: One compromise I would accept is FoW at night only. It would mimic the blindness normal humans have at night, and wouldn't be a massive hindrance to daily function because most colonists sleep (the only thing that it would really affect is raids, and the raid aspect of the game seems to be the one you've been focusing on anyway, so win-win).

I actually think that FOV should be optional or up to Tynan to decide, veteran players like me would prefer having FOV.
Also it would be nice to have even if you are a casual player.

I feel that more events are needed first, not much of a point to add FOV now.. all the time i spent playing latest version is heaters/coolers/hydrophonics and doors breaking over and over.. It just gets annoying..

We need much more events, more unique threats in a situation where FOV would be much more enjoyable.

Quote from: 00petar00 on May 05, 2016, 11:25:23 AM
I actually think that FOV should be optional or up to Tynan to decide, veteran players like me would prefer having FOV.
Also it would be nice to have even if you are a casual player.

I feel that more events are needed first, not much of a point to add FOV now.. all the time i spent playing latest version is heaters/coolers/hydrophonics and doors breaking over and over.. It just gets annoying..

We need much more events, more unique threats in a situation where FOV would be much more enjoyable.

I agree. I think Fog of war should be implemented when the game reached its final form.

[quote author=keylocke link=topic=19755.msg217219#msg217219 date=1462438024
for hunting, there were suggestions that it should be tasked as a bill tied to a crafting station (like a butcher table or like a crafting spot) so players can just set the animal types to be hunted and the hunters will automatically hunt those animal types. it also makes it easier to cancel hunting by suspending a bill instead of trying to cancel it one at a time.

-hunter then automatically tags that animal for hunting and begins hunting.
-this is how hunting works in real life. hunters don't just make for a beeline automatically knowing where their prey is. that just takes the joy out of "hunting".

as for cargo pods, they are often accompanied by notifications, so even with FOW, players would be aware of their locations.


^that

surprises are fun coz it makes even the most mundane events able to inspire curiosity.
[/quote]

^this is actually a pretty good solution to a lot of my concerns about FoV. I'm still dubious about it, because it's a massive overhaul to a game I'm very happy with already, but it's good to see that attractive solutions to this issue exist.

Quote from: skullywag on May 05, 2016, 07:22:29 AM
The problem with all this is the Ai, when there was FOW (yes it existed in RW) the AI had the advantage and just knew where all your stuff was whereas you had no clue where they were, to reverse this would have meant MASSIVE AI code changes, the kind you just dont want undertake. So FOW was removed which levelled the playing field.

doing a bit of ai work on a project of my own, im curious why it would be such a massive undertaking to change RW's ai. Currently, they clearly need to see everything to select a target, but once they have a target they charge off etc etc. Seems to me, not having all the information just means the ai needs to have a process to acquire targets. An i know, for certain, with experience behind it,  that that isnt that hard to implement in c#. I designed half a dozen of those behaviours in half a day for a 2d top down game an my coder had them built in about 3 days worth of work. An most of that work was on architecture that had nothing to do with target acquisition.

My point is, i havent code dived RW that much, an im curious what is going on in the backend that would be so hard to pull out an rebuild for oppositional pawn behaviour? Does it have something to do with storytellers, do they assign targets atm?

**edit: to be 100% clear i am not remotely as experienced a designer as Tynan and my coder isnt either, thus why im so confused.

Rexx1888, don't forget to account that now Raider are an hivemind avoiding the place where they died the last time (so as to avoid KILLBOX).
Behavior which require to know the layout of your base to do that, this isn't "realistic" but player and especially game-maker should know that gameplay goes before realism, even in the most incredible simulator (ex: flight simulator don't force you to look around the cockpit and push the buttons as those are only an nice-touch/approximation of how you would actually pilot a plane).

In any case, I think you'll find out that either you rework the normal AI to adapt to "Blind-player", or you program them to have a Fog of their own. Which is another reason FoW is "more complicated than it seem".
Keeping in mind that a few players imagine a different Rimworld with "permanent threat" (enemy base on map) and will suggest things that fit with their ideal.


ps : keylocke, if you wonder why I didn't answer you : I lost a river of text through a bug of the forum(lucky you), then decided that with the uninviting way you format your question, SPAM edit... a QUOTE WAR should to be avoided. It doesn't mean I won't (or didn't already) answers your points (as said, they come up all the time).

can you just shhhh, i wasnt asking you. unless you have something to tell me about the code itself i dont want to hear it

Brilliant. Gets my vote.

Quote from: rexx1888 on May 08, 2016, 01:49:19 AM
Currently, they clearly need to see everything to select a target, but once they have a target they charge off etc etc. Seems to me, not having all the information just means the ai needs to have a process to acquire targets. An i know, for certain, with experience behind it,  that that isnt that hard to implement in c#. I designed half a dozen of those behaviours in half a day for a 2d top down game an my coder had them built in about 3 days worth of work. An most of that work was on architecture that had nothing to do with target acquisition.

My point is, i havent code dived RW that much, an im curious what is going on in the backend that would be so hard to pull out an rebuild for oppositional pawn behaviour? Does it have something to do with storytellers, do they assign targets atm?

**edit: to be 100% clear i am not remotely as experienced a designer as Tynan and my coder isnt either, thus why im so confused.

It's even simpler than that, at least from my view. As the AI stands now, you can't shoot at an out of range enemy, or even task a colonist to shoot at an out of range enemy, so it's not like your colonists would ever interact with anything outside the fog (provided you make the fog match the range of your colonists' weapons, which makes logical sense).

Quote from: Kegereneku on May 08, 2016, 03:16:02 AM
ps : keylocke, if you wonder why I didn't answer you : I lost a river of text through a bug of the forum(lucky you), then decided that with the uninviting way you format your question, SPAM edit... a QUOTE WAR should to be avoided. It doesn't mean I won't (or didn't already) answers your points (as said, they come up all the time).

lel. in your theoretical tirade that didn't actually get posted, i'm pretty sure that you believe that everything you said is absolutely 100% cannot be contested and that everyone who disagrees with you is absolutely wrong. amirite?  ;)

i still don't get why you oppose FOW (it's already in the game). adding a toggleable global FOW option for people who wants it, ain't gonna ruin your game. haha.

it's more like you're arguing just to ensure nobody else enjoys their game in a way that you don't approve of it.

rimworld is not your game, and i sure as heck didn't buy this game from you.

@keylocke

I would suggest that it's selected from the beginning of your colony, rather than being a toggle button. Like saying, easy mode, normal mode(how the game was intended to be played), hard mode (with an option for "harder" that includes FoW), everyone is happy.

agreed, maybe right next to the ironman mode toggle option.

Quote from: keylocke on May 03, 2016, 04:05:07 PMa "scout" is just someone you can send to investigate an event that occurred hidden in FOW if the notifications "intrigued" you. ie : if you think it warrants your attention. you are in no way required to send scouts all the time.

a "patrol" are just idle people you have around that you can automatically set to walk around in groups automatically attacking mad animals and predators that are within your patrol route. they're like a temporary group of mobile meat-turrets.

so, "wasting time" isn't exactly what they're doing. most of your assumptions are based on your faulty interpretations of what each tasks are supposed to do.

Spot on. Perhaps the biggest single practical benefit of having guard work is to make the colonists who suck at everything except shooting/melee actually useful. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of us have ran into situations that we just couldn't find those combat-experienced colonists something to do. Hell, if you're unlucky enough you can get a colonist with the "psychopath" trait who can't do any type of work except hunting.

With the guard duty mechanism in place, those otherwise useless colonists would be able to protect the colony from threats and provide a passive mood boost to all colonists. This is not even to mention all the benefits of having guards/scouts in a game with toggled Unknown Threats and/or FOW options.

IMO, there's nothing to lose here, not even for hardcore Rimworld conservatives like Kegereneku (disabled warnings and FOW would be togglable). Only to gain.