I started a new colony and Winter has come by now and it is hard enough to keep my people from mental breaks and the sick from being outside of beds, so the last thing i need is a lot of the animals from all around the map coming up to my colonists and attacking them and me not knowing till my colonists are already hurt. I'd love if an animal does decide it wants to attack one of my people then a red notification on the right side of the screen could come up, like what happens when there is a raid or an animal goes mad. This just makes me mad cause at the start of the winter i had a lot of medicine but because of all these random attacks that i don't know about till it's already happening is really using up all of my meds.
Erm...You do?
The game does tell you if a colonist is attacked and needs treatment as soon as one is injured.
Quote from: 1000101 on June 03, 2016, 12:41:14 AM
Erm...You do?
The game does tell you if a colonist is attacked and needs treatment as soon as one is injured.
And that's too late to draft them to shoot the attacking animal - I think what he's saying is that an animal hunting a colonist should be treated like a mad animal or a raider - with the flee, ignore or attack modes which your colonists have when not drafted.
While I can see the problem with a random predator deciding a colonist is lunch, it's happened to me as it's happened to us all. But, I also see a problem with extending the omnipresence too much. There is a love-hate relationship with this - sure it sucks when a bear hunts a colonist, but I also don't think I should be alerted about it until it happens otherwise it completely negates the threat. Hidden danger exists, it's a fact of life, why should it be any different in a game?
The metagame will evolve to kill all bears on sight. Is that what you want ?
That carries it's own threat in that predators will automatically attack in self defence. With animals migrating in, new predators will appear seasonally.
I still don't think automagically "seeing into their minds" and knowing they are hunting your colonists is the right solution.
That's the design Tynan has chosen. You can even look into minds of raiders to see what they plan. When they send sappers, you can see stuff like "Attacking sandstone door", which is often a big clue when you have doors made of different materials.
For that matter, the game should hide the actions of any non-colonist imo. But that is a slightly different discussion. ;)
Quote from: b0rsuk on June 03, 2016, 02:21:13 AM
The metagame will evolve to kill all bears on sight. Is that what you want ?
That doesn't really apply here. There is no "metagame" in an offline single player game. It's up to each individual whether they look for and use strategies and exploits on forums or reddit. How other people play the game has no influence on my game unless I want it to.
I leave berries as offering for the hungry bear spirits that haunt the land. ;D Other predators are a bit harder to appease.
We already get mad animal notifications. No reason not to get notifications for being hunted.
Quote from: cultist on June 03, 2016, 09:32:19 AM
Quote from: b0rsuk on June 03, 2016, 02:21:13 AM
The metagame will evolve to kill all bears on sight. Is that what you want ?
That doesn't really apply here. There is no "metagame" in an offline single player game.
Even if a game has a forum ? And think what happens once the game hits Steam.
Consensus about certain strategies and events is enough to lobby for/against a balance change. Then suddenly Crashed Ship Part becomes easier or harder. How people play their game affects you. If enough people don't figure out sniper rifles take out crashed ship part with no challenge, you'll see nerfs to mechanoids for sure. It's not the 90's.
By all means go ahead and not kill predators that casually walk by and stun your colonists, if that's your idea of fun. Does it work that way for the sake of good gameplay ? Because it's certainly not realism. Bears are eager to break into houses, fridges and garbage cans to get food, but they avoid contact with humans if they can help it.
Quote from: hwfanatic on June 03, 2016, 04:04:14 PM
I leave berries as offering for the hungry bear spirits that haunt the land. ;D Other predators are a bit harder to appease.
Don't bury your enemies. Dump them in a stockpile. "Seen a (rotting) corpse" is not as bad as you think if it only happens after a raid.
I don't think Tynan is going to change game mechanics every time someone farts.
But seriously, there will always be something to complain about. It's just not "realistic" (as much as a game can be) for you to automagically know you're being hunted by an animal just because it's within a mile of you. Predators are intelligent animals and don't advertise the fact that they are stalking prey. If they did, they would die of starvation.
Really, all non-colony pawns should have their job report string hidden from the player. The best solution would be to make pawns path smarter by not walking right in front of a large dangerous predator.
Quote from: 1000101 on June 03, 2016, 08:06:41 PM
I don't think Tynan is going to change game mechanics every time someone farts.
But seriously, there will always be something to complain about. It's just not "realistic" (as much as a game can be) for you to automagically know you're being hunted by an animal just because it's within a mile of you. Predators are intelligent animals and don't advertise the fact that they are stalking prey. If they did, they would die of starvation.
Really, all non-colony pawns should have their job report string hidden from the player. The best solution would be to make pawns path smarter by not walking right in front of a large dangerous predator.
Well, How about a compromise. A surprise attack still can happen, but if a colonist 'spots' the bear/warg/thing-with-many-teeth, or starts running away from a predator, you get a notification. Just not the instant they are being hunted.
Well, I think the auto-response system for colonists should factor in predators. I'm not trying to be dick in this thread, but I am trying to be realistic as to my expectations.
Contrary to what you see in the game world, most successful predators, even large ones, are actually moderately, even highly, stealthy, and tend to have much better senses than humans. They have to be, in order to survive.
A bear, in all seriousness, would probably have very little difficulty sneaking up on a human being.
To me, that is what the lack of an alert about colonists getting attacked by animals represents: them sneaking up on your colonists. And, to be honest, it doesn't really bother me all that much. In late Fall/ early Winter, most predators leave my maps. If they stick around, I usually kill them before they kill my pawns, for food and for security.
Not only a bear can sneak on a human being with little difficulty, it can also habe burst of speed of about 50 Km/h. Good luck escaping that without a car.
I think a whenever a predator begins stalking a colonist they should have a roll-of-the-dice chance of being made aware of it based on their personal modifiers, then depending on what stance you have them set in they either run from the danger or start to fight the creature off. That way you could sometimes avoid the frustration of having a colonist die to a sudden predator attack while still having to fear the occasional ambush attack.
Myself I suggest being notified as soon as the predator start stalking someone. Even if you don't tell who and where, it's a minor anti-frustration feature anyway.
Quote from: b0rsuk on June 03, 2016, 02:21:13 AM
The metagame will evolve to kill all bears on sight. Is that what you want ?
Quote from: cultist on June 03, 2016, 09:32:19 AM
That doesn't really apply here. There is no "metagame" in an offline single player game. It's up to each individual whether they look for and use strategies and exploits on forums or reddit. How other people play the game has no influence on my game unless I want it to.
metagaming also apply to single player game, check the definition nothing rule it out. It is also precisely what a friend did : make a hunting party TO KILL ALL BEAR !
Another example of metagaming was when everybody built KILLBOX(tm) as a SOP.
It is also another of the many reasons a Fog of War is not suited to Rimworld : both features together would create a unknown&persistent threat in a game precisely made to have those only appear as part of the Storytelling AI.
note : I'm not against Predator, I'm against crippling the game because one don't understand what FoW isn't for.Quote from: Thane on June 04, 2016, 12:03:49 AM
Well, How about a compromise. A surprise attack still can happen, but if a colonist 'spots' the bear/warg/thing-with-many-teeth, or starts running away from a predator, you get a notification. Just not the instant they are being hunted.
That will help but considering the speed of those, what's the point if ultimately you can't remotely prevent your colonist death ?
I had a colonist die due to this. Another only survived after a campaign of save-scum to use a small mountain to gain time and get another colonists to help.
"Kill all predators on sight" and building kill-boxes is not metagaming. Metagaming only applies to using outside rules and knowledge. Example of metagaming, playing dungeons and dragons and using the knowledge that trolls can only be killed by acid or fire when your character would not otherwise have such knowledge. There are no outside rules or knowledge at play here.
The only thing that is relevant to this conversation is, "should the game tell you that there is a hungry predator stalking your colonist?" Given that predators survive by their stealth and guile and that providing such information actually would be metagaming, my opinion is no, they should not. As I said previously, the job strings (that info in the box) for any non-colonists should be hidden from the player as it is, in fact, metagaming.
It's all fun and games, but predators won't advertise their stalking IRL.
What about paying attention to the whereabout of your pawns?
What I am saying is it's ok to kill all predators on the map. We humans tend to already do that.
Because predators tend to wiew us as prey.
I see no problem, you or your animals are outside in the open and a get attack by predators. Colonists will respond as running or attacking the predator, I believe they are not stunned by the attack like other creatures.
And if you are attacked by a cougar, well, yeah, you are gonna die. Simply as that. What you could do, since predators are a really bad thing, is the addiction of fences.
A extremely low life impassable wall that holds the animals but raiders can destroy it on one or two hits. Dosen't support roof
Yes, colonists are stunned like any other, there is no special case for them.
But I agree with the view that you should not be told about a predator stalking your colonists.
Quote from: 1000101 on June 06, 2016, 01:49:49 AM
"Kill all predators on sight" and building kill-boxes is not metagaming. Metagaming only applies to using outside rules and knowledge.
[...]
Getting enemy into most of the KILLBOX(tm) came from the "outside knowledge" that their AI were limited and would follow illogical path. But I admit "Killing all predator" was stretching a lot.
Also I disagree with your example.
At this point, Rimworld being itself, you can say there isn't a "prescribed ruleset" to "transcend into metagame" in the first place or that it is metagaming incarnate as you are to make your own story and retroactively make up the rules (like "they decided to search and kill all predator to be safe" or "The colonist saw the predator starting to follow him and decided to ask god for help thought a notification notice").
Anyway, as you said :
Quote from: 1000101 on June 06, 2016, 01:49:49 AM
The only thing that is relevant to this conversation is, "should the game tell you that there is a hungry predator stalking your colonist?"
[...]
Put aside that "providing the info" wouldn't be metagaming since the rules include telling you......your suggestion would conflict with what many other players like this game for : The knowledge and ability to "game" everything, without relying on blind luck.
I'm not saying this isn't a legitimate gameplay worth playing, but it would need to be among the "Scenario system" self-decided rules.
Going realistic for the sake of realism don't make a good game. Just like Flight-sim don't force you to play-simulator withing the simulator before being allowed in a plane, or send the air-force after you because you are a danger to everything that live.
So, idea : we could keep gathering as many point of view as possible before a solution come to mind.- Some players want to be told about predator before it's irreversible (so that "kill all predator" isn't the only way)
- Some players want to keep that risk of sudden, deathly attack (considering "Kill all Predator" as optional, liking to live with the risk).
- Some players want to change the gameplay in a deeper way (making the original question/problem irrelevant)
Feel free to tell if you saw more.
Quote from: Kegereneku
Quote from: 1000101
"Kill all predators on sight" and building kill-boxes is not metagaming. Metagaming only applies to using outside rules and knowledge.
[...]
Getting enemy into most of the KILLBOX(tm) came from the "outside knowledge" that their AI were limited and would follow illogical path. But I admit "Killing all predator" was stretching a lot.
Also I disagree with your example.
Building killboxes has been around for thousands of years and the term actually comes from the medieval times when castle gate houses would have "murder holes" in the ceiling so defenders could stab the enemy with spears from above. It is not metagaming, it is tactical design. There is a reason why all ancient fortifications had spiral stairwells which went counter-clockwise-down (clockwise-up) - It's because most people are right handed and it would put the invaders right arm on the inside of the edge of the stairwell limiting their ability to swing a sword while affording the defenders the outside edge and more room to swing their swords. Simply put, it's tactics.
And whether you "disagree with my example" is irrelevant without a reasoned argument. You can disagree that water is H2O all you like, it doesn't change anything unless you can prove it's not.
Quote from: KegerenekuAt this point, Rimworld being itself, you can say there isn't a "prescribed ruleset" to "transcend into metagame" in the first place or that it is metagaming incarnate as you are to make your own story and retroactively make up the rules (like "they decided to search and kill all predator to be safe" or "The colonist saw the predator starting to follow him and decided to ask god for help thought a notification notice").
The argument of "god" is as absurd as it gets. That the game itself provides metagame information does not mean that it should. It means that it's an alpha game and such things haven't been polished yet.
Quote from: Kegereneku
Anyway, as you said :
Quote from: 1000101
The only thing that is relevant to this conversation is, "should the game tell you that there is a hungry predator stalking your colonist?"
[...]
Put aside that "providing the info" wouldn't be metagaming since the rules include telling you...
...your suggestion would conflict with what many other players like this game for : The knowledge and ability to "game" everything, without relying on blind luck.
Yes, most people like to have as much knowledge as possible, even when they wouldn't or shouldn't have access to it. Just because the game itself gives you the information doesn't mean it's not metagame information.
Quote from: KegerenekuI'm not saying this isn't a legitimate gameplay worth playing, but it would need to be among the "Scenario system" self-decided rules.
This I agree with you 100%. This is probably best left to the scenario system so players can choose to decide how much metagame information is provided.
Quote from: Kegereneku
Going realistic for the sake of realism ...
You'll note that I quoted the word "realistic" for express purpose of showing that it wasn't really a point but that no better word fit for the sake of conversation.
Quote from: KegerenekuSo, idea : we could keep gathering as many point of view as possible before a solution come to mind.
- Some players want to be told about predator before it's irreversible (so that "kill all predator" isn't the only way)
- Some players want to keep that risk of sudden, deathly attack (considering "Kill all Predator" as optional, liking to live with the risk).
- Some players want to change the gameplay in a deeper way (making the original question/problem irrelevant)
Feel free to tell if you saw more.
As you succinctly put it before, this can and probably should be handled by the scenario system. We'll have to wait and see what A14 offers us in that department.
It's going to suck for people using the 3x speed button if no warning is added. I pretty much don't use the button.
Animals generally have better senses than humans, with exception of sight (many are colorblind). But it works both ways. Your own animals should be able to detect them. Dogs would bark or whine, cats would hiss. Animals trained with Obedience or bonded could act as bodyguards.