Hi guys, especially those deeply into Rimworld, I am not... While I like the Steam workshop integration, I'd like to know if the auto updating of mods is a problem for savegames. Never? Sometimes? Often? Always?
I have only deep knowledge about modding in the ArmA world, and there it is necessary to rather choose a semi automatic update way. I.e., has to be reviewed by me. There I will never choose workshop for mods, savegames are in danger.
TIA
You're late to the party. We had this discussion weeks ago.
OK, maybe I find the discussion/the result of it.
Here man
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=14240.msg147215#msg147215
But basically, yeah it will break a crapload lots of savegames if you ask me
don't install mods from authors who break saves and push updated without warning, simple.
While what RawCode says about "update without warning" is a bit naive (with Workshop you have no choice), the best solution is just to void Workshop altogether.
Quote from: RawCode on July 24, 2016, 04:11:41 AM
don't install mods from authors who break saves and push updated without warning, simple.
How would this work then? if I need to update my mod its gonna go to steam workshop, doesnt matter if i prewarn people, as autoupdate (the subject of this post) will just update it whether you like it or not, so yeah as 1000101 states, only option is disable updates in some way, which is pretty much impossible except for simply not using steam.
For those who don't want a latest update or would prefer to update manually, I have provided a link back to the forum post which has the version history with links to the previous version.
Obviously it would be nice to provide some warning, but Workshop is kind of lacking there unless people have subscribed to the mod's comments page and can see you frantically jumping up and down saying 'GUYS I HAEV UPDATE READY 2 GO!!!!1!' ;)
Also, for very minor changes (which usually don't bork saved games) I wouldn't be too concerned about warning everyone. Just edit the change note, assuming that people read those.
Quote from: MarvinKosh on July 24, 2016, 11:15:56 AMJust edit the change note, assuming that people read those.
hahaha, yer fun-ay!
Quote from: skullywag on July 24, 2016, 05:06:04 AM
Quote from: RawCode on July 24, 2016, 04:11:41 AM
don't install mods from authors who break saves and push updated without warning, simple.
How would this work then? if I need to update my mod its gonna go to steam workshop, doesnt matter if i prewarn people, as autoupdate (the subject of this post) will just update it whether you like it or not, so yeah as 1000101 states, only option is disable updates in some way, which is pretty much impossible except for simply not using steam.
Nobody ever read my posts entirely, ever moderators, God, why???
Quotedon't install mods from authors who break saves and push updated without warning, simple.
I developed some mod, good, very good, it adds few guns and few items, simple, people likes cat launchers, pony with rainbow attack and BFG from doom, but actually it's just rick roll .GIF player that break saves for unknown reason related to random defs with tailing numbers.
Then, suddenly, i decided to RENAME some defs, just for teh drama, no real reason.
Instead of checking my mod for issues and save\loading compatibility, i just push "update" button laughing in manner similar to doctor evil from special agent parody.
1. check issues on local build before pushing - nope
2. check save\loading on local build before pushing - nope
3. dedicated some time to version adapter to load games from prev versions - nope
4. just leaving deprecated defs? I SAID NO PEOPLE MUST SUFFER!!!11
5. adding some useless color tags to few items - YES!
6. pressing push button - OFC YES!!!1111
7. then change something again few moments later and push it again!
avoid developers like me, i am cancer and will make nothing good ever.
case 2
I developed not very good, it is not insanely popular, but i really cares about my players, all hooks have removal routines, everything have version\signature checks, it ever checks database integrity and compatibility with other mods and instead of failing miserably, provide user friendly warning about expected issues.
Before ever thinking about publishing update, i check it locally for multiple hours, ask my friends on Linux\MAC to check platform stuff.
I perfectly sure that update wont cause any issues.
If i can't fix issues related to backward compatibility, i push update that adds warning to existing version, and publish next version of mod as separate workshop item, allowing users to decide self when and how they updates.
Ah yes, reason of mod "not very good" is simple, instead of mashing keys mindlessly and adding zillion guns i plan ahead, check other mods, running tests, doing tracing and ever heap shots to ensure stability and performance, that cost additional time and resources and i have less time to make fancy content that everyone loves, sadly, nobody loves internals and tech, all need just fancy sprites.
System is good, not every developer is good and it's up to user, to decide, is developer good or not, it's just like games on steam, you can get piece of crap with 3rd party DRM for 60 buks and some brilliant indie ever without steam hooks (some games on steam does not *actually* need steam to run, such games are basically DRM free) for 10 buks.
You will never make proper decision without reading reviews, checking screenshots and videos, workshop is same.
Quote'GUYS I HAEV UPDATE READY 2 GO!!!!1!' ;)
I push update that adds popup window that cannot be closed instantly with warning about update and what will happen after that update with savegames.
Same window as for mod pushing, but with 30 secs countdown.
You don't ever need to read anything anywhere, i will FORCE you to read my warning.
In worst case i will include "An appeal from Mod Author, RawCode" as unskippable fullscreen video that will play for a minute with my ugly face trying to speak English, this will happen every time you run the game.
I have strong feeling, that everyone "want to talk" but does not want to actually work to overcome issues, instead of stating "nobody read posts" that is indeed true, we should discuss how to force users to read stuff.
My suggestion:
[attachment deleted by admin - too old]
I did read your post.
If someone is going to do that then its either A. An honest mistake, people make those. or B. a malicious act, which yes I agree you as a subscriber want to avoid but no one knows what someones motives are on the internet. These people will gain a reputation for doing things wrong and people will start to avoid them. Asking the possible subscriber to know that upfront just isnt possible unless there is history there.
The modders in this community try to distill our knowledge and offer support as we can (well I do anyway) even if its not code level support but simply "how to be a better developer".
Any extra steps over how the steam workshop integration works needs Ludeon to add to the current process, we are working with what we currently have and what we currently have WILL break peoples saves if an update is pushed that does so, theres no getting around this currently apart from the "new mod" approach you have mentioned above, this however leads to the breaking of the history of the mod and is now no longer a single source of information/stats/support for the mod and adds "technical debt" for the developer. This is bad.
The only true fix for this issue is not not to use steam in its current format or Ludeon has to make a change their end.
If individual do not understand that he break saves for people, he wont use "separate workshop item" method, because he do not understand that he is breaking saves...
In reality, he wont use any method, he will just update, few days later he will update again, don't you understand it?
He will do same on forum and unaware user that does not make backups will fall into same problem - no old version to download from forum, new version break saves and no local backup...
Yeah thats my point, theres nothing we can do about that, after a while this modder will gain a reputation for being a game breaker and people will stop using the mod. I think we are agreeing on the same thing lol. Im just stating that there is very little the player/other modders can do here, its down to Ludeon or Valve to correct the broken behaviour.
Hey guys, thanks. So it's like in ArmA (there old/saved variables etc. would have to work in the new mod code): I have to weigh it up. Persistent gameplay, long-term saves-> more conservative modding, i.e. manually. No important saves: workshop is possible.
All in all workshop + mods is generally useless for me. I wish Steam sometimes had more proper ideas. They have so much money. E.g. a UI where you can stop mod auto updating. Or a per-mod option. Or mod developer can make initially set a prefered update setting for his mod. Or something even deeper...
Quote from: Tortuosit on July 25, 2016, 10:11:20 AMI wish Steam sometimes had more proper ideas. ... E.g. a UI where you can stop mod auto updating. Or a per-mod option.
The irony is that Steam originally had that option (before WS existed) but for some retarded non-reasons they removed it. Probably because game developers whined at them that they were getting bug reports about issues that were fixed from users who hadn't updated their games so, Valve caved and forced everyone to update. In turn they broke users games and as we all know - Big business doesn't give a shit about the end user.
I was dead seriously about the solution being just don't use Workshop to upload mods to. Otherwise the user is going to have to suffer with the possibility of the game/save being broken. But, since the game dev can break your game and force it on you, why should modders be any different in the context of Steam/Workshop?
Regarding RawCodes wall of text - which I did read btw, I read almost every post from RawCode as I think he's fairly brilliant and I try to glean every bit of knowledge I can from him - Creating a new mod entry on Workshop is exactly the wrong answer for many reasons (many of which have already been mentioned and don't warrant repeating). The proper solution would be for a mass exodus of their user base to any other platform or simply just refraining from using their service as a boycott until they make the needed improvements to their system to put the end user back in control but, that will never happen and is just a pipe dream.
Hm- I like the Don't Starve integration for the workshop. It won't update your mods if you have saves using it even if the workshop updated as it keeps them in a different folder. It just notifies you when a mod has been updated and you can do so manually, when you click update it merely copies the folder from the workshop to the local.
Maybe we can make a mod to do so? Doesn't seem that difficult.
Technically all the methods handling this are available (I think). Is it wrong to detour them to add a user interaction to move the mods from a temporary storage or something. So yes itll grab the update but itll put it in storage waiting to be "applied". Is this breaking any rules we shouldnt?
The user has to install the mod in order to enable this behaviour, so... they are informed, at least. Whether's it's legal or not, I have no idea.
It's sort of a strange turn of events that Bethesda are actually on top of the mod update breaking saved games issue. At least on XBox One.
The mod workshop that they have looks bloody horrible what with stuff showing up in a billion different categories, but it works - if you don't want to update a mod, you don't have to. As is standard for decent modded games these days there's also in-game modlist re-ordering.
Quote from: skullywag on July 25, 2016, 03:06:25 PM
Technically all the methods handling this are available (I think). Is it wrong to detour them to add a user interaction to move the mods from a temporary storage or something. So yes itll grab the update but itll put it in storage waiting to be "applied". Is this breaking any rules we shouldnt?
Don't even need to create a temporary storage, just ignore the workshop folder, that's the temporary storage. Just read the mod versions for updates. If user isn't using the mod, copy it automatically, if they are using the mod, mark the mod for updating and notify on save load perhaps? Something like, this save is using an old version of this and this mods, continue?
Case 1: Update going to fix severe issue that crash game a lot - all users by default not going to update automatically and whine on forum constantly, developer got mind break from this stupidity and abandoned modification.
Case 2: Update is stupid and break saves - all users by default update automatically and whine on forum. Developer just ignore everyone, he don't care.
Case 3: Developer is allowed to select, is update optional or not, fine, he break saves and post untested trash as mandatory update - users whine on forum, developer don't care.
As you can see, system without forced updates cause problems for "good" developers.
System with forced updates, cause problems for users, who play games from "bad" developers.
Steam does not care about bad developers and bad games, this is reason of current system implementation.
While I don't disagree with you (RawCode) in principle, it's never that simple. Even good developers have a bug that slips though which could potentially break a save.
But that doesn't change that Valve shouldn't take away the control from the user. Both parties (developer and user) should have a say as to when an update happens. The developers get this say by publishing an update, the users should get a say by whether they choose to update.
there is no reason to discuss future, i will assemble modification that prevent steam autoupdates for mods by storing images inside separate folder, sadly, it wont work correctly for DLL based mods, since there is no reliable way to "unload" types from classpool with current implementation of modloader.
Quote from: notfood on July 25, 2016, 04:28:10 PMDon't even need to create a temporary storage, just ignore the workshop folder, that's the temporary storage. Just read the mod versions for updates.
Now this is interesting. I was thinking about manually syncing the workshop folder (Steam\steamapps\workshop\content\294100\) with Rimworld\Mods. So I tried it.
- In Rimworld you see both, workshop and nonworkshop mods - workshop mods have to be disabled via UI
- Even though the folders are named like "705924057" - Rimworld UI shows the mod name properly
- Rimworld\Mods does not like empty folders
- Rimworld\Mods does not like the folders with the .rsc files (Scenarios)
So for me, I see a 1-click syncing whenever I decide to update mods. And still have the convenience of the workshop. PS, xcopy /s does not copy empty folders IIRC
Quote from: 1000101 on July 26, 2016, 03:06:18 AMBut that doesn't change that Valve shouldn't take away the control from the user. Both parties (developer and user) should have a say as to when an update happens. The developers get this say by publishing an update, the users should get a say by whether they choose to update.
Exactly this. User should be able to decide for a per-application or global update setting (do, don't, use recommended). Modders should be able to transport a recommended auto update setting with any release. It's correct, modders cannot always know that they break saves. But they still are the ones who recommend an update strategy, because, who else.