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This thread is for all feedback about the Alpha 15 unstable branch test!

I could also really use some savegames for recording the release video on! I'm really just looking for natural colonies - not some weird fancy artwork. Ideally, with a drug production operation. If you've got a savegame like this, please zip it, put it on Dropbox or another file hosting service, and drop the link here.

Thanks all.

Hello Tynan,

Let me start by saying nice job on the A15. Quicker than expected, and I am psyched! Thanks for providing an unstable branch.

I just completed the tutorial and a few minutes of regular gameplay, and I feel one or two things are missing from the tutor. The most common newbie mistake I see mentioned on the RimWorld subreddit is to do with capturing instead of rescuing people from escape pods. The second most common 'mistake' is the buttons on the bottom right; regarding the automatic expansion of the homezone and categorized layout of the resource list.

Thanks again, and I'm off to play more!

I will try it over the weekend.

If I may ask, when will the final A15 be out (in less than two weeks or not?) Since I am working on a mod and if its out in the next 2-3 weeks, I would make it for A15 right away and not bother with A14.

Hi Tynan

First off, amazing turnaround on A15, that was the fastest I've seen. I love it and can't wait to start a real colony. Especially to see the food preference tweaks. Finally my pawns will (hopefully) eat those fine meals instead of raw rice!

Anyway, I played through the tutorial and took some notes. Take them for what they are worth, this is in the order that they occurred for me.

When choosing a landing site - I didn't see any info on important factors like temperatures and growing periods. Maybe a brief mention of them, or like "Check out the stats of the landing site, every site is different, the further north you go the colder" or something. 

When creating pawns - Maybe a brief suggestion that your pawns have all the primary skills (social, cook, build, mine, grow) amongst them to continue. Maybe a brief indication to look at the little good and great skill modifiers and what they mean. I do love your instruction to not just reroll in search of perfection. 

When unforbidding the steel/wood/etc you start with, the 'unforbid this' text covered up the items completely until I got to a very low zoom level. Since this comes on the heels of the zoom in/zoom out instructions there's a good chance noobs might not be able to find out what it is they're supposed to click on.

When selecting weapons - Maybe suggest they look and see if a pawn has better skill in melee or ranged weaponry. Also the first colonist I tried to instruct to grab a weapon was busy vomiting, so clicking on the gun to equip did nothing. A noob might not understand what is going wrong. Also I am not sure but can violence forbidden pawns be instructed to carry weapons? This is a potential roadblock to the tutorial. 

Finally, when placing your pawns behind the sandbags, the hover text instructing them to take cover remains even after all pawns have complied with the instructions. Since previously this text would disappear upon compliance, this may confuse noobs who think they're pawns aren't properly in cover. 

A few small suggestions for additions:

A brief rundown of character needs. This is something people really seem to be baffled by, even after playing for hours. Particularly on the subreddit where I am active, it seems like a majority of new player frustrations stem from them not understanding the value of the needs tab. Getting this in their mind from the get-go seems like a good idea for an orientation/tutorial. 

Similarly, setting up a basic electric network and refrigeration system, and explanation of deterioration would be good for a tutorial IMO. I know this is covered pretty well in the next-level tool index thing, but it's so vital it might be worth putting in the basic tutorial.

I haven't had a chance to do any more with the new alpha but I wanted to give some quick feedback on the tutorial. Thanks as always, this game is the best!

Thanks for the notes everyone.

I can't respond to every detail, but I am definitely extracting some tasks and thoughts already.

Still looking for a decent colony to shoot the update video on!

hey tynan, i'm working on a colony that specializes in marijuana production. It's on Randy Casual, and i whipped together a scenario that starts you with drug production and microelectronics, at the cost of your first 3 having chemical interest and cannabis dependence.

is this the kind of colony you'd like some info on?

also WOW you buffed "lovin'" to 24 mood
actually, that's really weird, one of my colonists has got some lovin x2 with +29, and her partner has got some lovin x2 with +12

Lovin depends how much they like each other :)

As for the colony, just a natural colony is all I'm looking for. Nothing weird or special.

Hunters are hunting sleeping animals now. If I remember correctly they used to not hunt any sleeping animals.

Perhaps the sleeping mad animal fix changed something?

Quote from: NolanSyKinsley on August 18, 2016, 01:44:52 AM
Hunters are hunting sleeping animals now. If I remember correctly they used to not hunt any sleeping animals.

Perhaps the sleeping mad animal fix changed something?

They always hunted sleeping animals.

In a recent game, I had a dozen tribal people visit my colony. They promptly raided my food stores and devoured most of my meals. Could you please give them some pemmican so they don't do this?

Hey Tynan, I just started up and was a bit surprised to see drugs as 'marijuana' and 'coca'. I'm certainly not offended myself, but I imagine not all folks/govts/game ratings boards are as enlightened. I think Prison Architect (or some other game?) had to change the realistic names of the drugs to more fantasy names to avoid potential trouble.

Crack and weed. Brilliant. Just played the tutorial, two comments:

1. The bit where you're taught how to unforbid items makes the lack of a simple, draggable unforbid tool glaring. I think people will just be wondering "why is this such a hassle?" There's a perfect mod which adds this, I think you should implement it.

2. The raid part of the tutorial went a bit wrong for me. The raider spawned with my little house and stockpile between her and my sandbags, so the first thing she did was hit my house a few times, then gave up and went round it towards my dudes - but seeing she was outnumbered, she turned around, grabbed ALL OF MY MACHINE PARTS and ran off the map. This is all perfectly good gameplay, it's what she should do to punish me for not moving my dudes to defend the stockpile, but would have made for a confusing introduction to combat in Rimworld since I was told to let them sit there and have a shoot-out. Also the tutorial told me to pause the game but the game auto-paused, so if I'd pressed space I would have UN-paused it!

That's all. Keep up the good work! Rimworld is one of the best goddam games I ever played. Haven't had this much fun with a new game since FTL came out. (Also please add some kind of futuristic pistol. Surely a few could make it here from the Glitterworlds if the charge rifles have?)

Quote from: kanukki on August 18, 2016, 06:36:37 AM
Hey Tynan, I just started up and was a bit surprised to see drugs as 'marijuana' and 'coca'. I'm certainly not offended myself, but I imagine not all folks/govts/game ratings boards are as enlightened. I think Prison Architect (or some other game?) had to change the realistic names of the drugs to more fantasy names to avoid potential trouble.

Many older games have avoided real drug names for this very reason.

The important question is:
Does it matter in 2016, or is it a problem of the past?

I'm liking some of the changes so far....Always thought it was weird that we couldn't request a trade deal.

We really need a 'visitor spot' similar in function to a 'marriage spot'. That way visitors don't decide they need to hang out between my turrets and the incoming raid. I could park them in an air conditioned building safely away from the fighting and main food stores. I could supply them with some beer and beds, etc....

Really liking the changes  my colony feels more fleshed out with another route to weigh pros and cons of is always welcome for me, the drugs are going to make some interesting colony breakdowns I had one already it was glorious.
I always found it a little odd that our colonists lose friends and now family members they make moral choices that affect their moods considerably they can do terrible things to prisoners to save their own but there wasn't much we could do to "try and forget", gameplay wise it was there with joy and beer and social interaction but for me it felt strange that committing war crimes and harvesting organs could be offset by talking to someone you dislike and watching tv. For me drugs make that a lot easier to deal with from a gameplay and story perspective I think If I play a colony of brutish crack addicts taking prisoners and selling them an ends justifying means kinda colony seems more fitting than just randomly slaving cuz bored or my lack of a focus.
I think tolerances and addiction rates might need some tweaking my colony had 5 addicts within a single trip to the stockpile but admittedly when I added a new one in the drug policy I left everything default and I think that may of been the problem it was fun just maybe an easy way for a newer player to wipe if a big pile of hard drugs appears somehow

Quote from: Michigo on August 18, 2016, 07:16:12 AM

Quote from: kanukki on August 18, 2016, 06:36:37 AM
Hey Tynan, I just started up and was a bit surprised to see drugs as 'marijuana' and 'coca'. I'm certainly not offended myself, but I imagine not all folks/govts/game ratings boards are as enlightened. I think Prison Architect (or some other game?) had to change the realistic names of the drugs to more fantasy names to avoid potential trouble.

Many older games have avoided real drug names for this very reason


The important question is:
Does it matter in 2016, or is it a problem of the past?

Be the change you want to see in the world?

Hi there !

This is my first post lol after playing for so long.. And i think i really need to post this feedback cos its important.
Everything on the A15 is great except for the DRUGS.
Why Drugs ? Hate Drugs and i don't encourage it.
And it comes with Addiction. No no.. please don't.
You can replaced Drugs that buff combat as an Energy Drink example "Monster drink lll"
Or increase mood maybe a strong liquor like Whiskey etc. Even in GTA V i don't see my char taking Drugs to increase Combat.
I was really excited when i saw the A15 patch coming, but it instantly turn me off when i saw Drugs.
It give me nightmares when i think some of the mods in the future will have "Rape the visitors" when drugs is involved.
I am sure some of the fans here feel the same, i really hope Rimworld is not going to that Direction, it will definitely lose some fans.

I love Rimworld very much..
Please change away the Drugs its really not good.

Regards,
JP

Is the Alpha 15 preview only available through Steam?  I picked up the game from the website rather than Steam after the steam key thing ended because I recall Tynan saying he prefers us using the website if we don't particularly care about having it on Steam since Valve doesn't take a cut from the sale then (and manually updating is only a minor hassle so I don't mind).  Would suck if I can't try out A15 early because of that though.

Quote from: puddytat on August 18, 2016, 12:53:49 PM
Hi there !

This is my first post lol after playing for so long.. And i think i really need to post this feedback cos its important.
Everything on the A15 is great except for the DRUGS.
Why Drugs ? Hate Drugs and i don't encourage it.
And it comes with Addiction. No no.. please don't.
You can replaced Drugs that buff combat as an Energy Drink example "Monster drink lll"
Or increase mood maybe a strong liquor like Whiskey etc. Even in GTA V i don't see my char taking Drugs to increase Combat.
I was really excited when i saw the A15 patch coming, but it instantly turn me off when i saw Drugs.
It give me nightmares when i think some of the mods in the future will have "Rape the visitors" when drugs is involved.
I am sure some of the fans here feel the same, i really hope Rimworld is not going to that Direction, it will definitely lose some fans.

I don't see him doing away with the drugs, since he wanted to take it in a Fallout-esque direction, with a whole quasi sub-culture based around it. The issue as I see it is real world more so, with ratings and such. I hear where you're coming from (I would also add Whiskey is a hell of a drug itself, albeit a more socially acceptable one, but that's another topic), but I think it fits in well enough with the gritty/grimey world of Rim. I won't comment on the "rape the visitors" comment, because I don't understand it and I can't see that ever becoming an event. I am sympathetic to your views though, and I'm not 100% on the drugs (but I think they were well done in the Fallout universe). But enough on that (back on topic).

More to the point about why I'm posting though: How do I go about getting a hold of the A15 branch for testing? Is it through Steam beta opt-in? I've only had RimWorld for about a week, so I'm not sure what the standard procedure is.
Cheers.

Quote from: puddytat on August 18, 2016, 12:53:49 PM
Hi there !

This is my first post lol after playing for so long.. And i think i really need to post this feedback cos its important.
Everything on the A15 is great except for the DRUGS.
Why Drugs ? Hate Drugs and i don't encourage it.
And it comes with Addiction. No no.. please don't.
You can replaced Drugs that buff combat as an Energy Drink example "Monster drink lll"
Or increase mood maybe a strong liquor like Whiskey etc. Even in GTA V i don't see my char taking Drugs to increase Combat.
I was really excited when i saw the A15 patch coming, but it instantly turn me off when i saw Drugs.
It give me nightmares when i think some of the mods in the future will have "Rape the visitors" when drugs is involved.
I am sure some of the fans here feel the same, i really hope Rimworld is not going to that Direction, it will definitely lose some fans.

I love Rimworld very much..
Please change away the Drugs its really not good.

Regards,
JP

Apologies for the big quote, I'm on mobile and snipping would take too much effort.

In this game, you, the player, aren't the one taking the drugs. Your colonists are the ones taking the drugs and struggling with the addiction. It is up to your choices as a player to keep your colonists clean if that's what you want.

I think adding drugs and addictions is a great feature that improves the stories the game can make. I've said plenty of times to friends and family, a successful colony in Rimworld could be a Scifi novel. Worrying about drugs, addictions and chemical interests really makes me more attached to my colonists and feel more for their safety. Maybe it's because of my personal experiences, but seeing a cocaine addict in my colony is more impactful and sad than having a shooter with a missing lung.

As for your "rape" thing, I know it would never be added. Believe it or not most people aren't rapists, and I bet even the human butchers and minmaxers among us wouldn't use the feature just because of how morally conflicting it is.

I hope you understand.

Drug comments. I also found marijuana itself a little immersion breaking (which is weird, corn didn't do that for me) but all in all, it's easy enough to change with mods.

I really like the beer fermenting process.

Colonists and food. They were going out of their way to avoid my simple meals and eating all my survival food (I was hoping to store it in case of disaster)... I then decided to go look at the code for that. Couldn't find it. Anyone know where that is?

Quote from: puddytat on August 18, 2016, 12:53:49 PM
Why Drugs ? Hate Drugs and i don't encourage it.

They are completely options. You don't have to produce them, the game will work just fine without them. For example, I've never built a brewery or grown hops, yet somehow I've managed to play the game for 600+ hours and do very well on Cassandra Classic Permadeath. 

Quote from: puddytat on August 18, 2016, 12:53:49 PM
Or increase mood maybe a strong liquor like Whiskey etc.

Really, alcohol is a drug. In some areas it is more acceptable than others, for sure, but it is a drug all the same. I live in Oregon where marijuana is legal, so for my area it is equal to alcohol in acceptability. There are parts of the world where cocaine and methamphetamine are legal. This is a fantasy world and offers a lot of opportunity. Tynan kept the consequences of drug use in the game - addiction, withdrawal, mood alteration both positive and negative.

Quote from: puddytat on August 18, 2016, 12:53:49 PM
It give me nightmares when i think some of the mods in the future will have "Rape the visitors" when drugs is involved.

Considering that slave trading and involuntary organ harvesting are common practices already in this game (and have been for years) I don't understand your moral outrage. I definitely find either of those practices to be far more socially dangerous than drug addiction. I personally don't engage in any of those practices when I play, but they are there for those who enjoy that sort of roleplaying. Similarly, mods are completely the player's choice. I've tried a few out, don't like them and I play vanilla. There's some evil mods out there for sure but that doesn't change how fun the game is for me.

Quote from: puddytat on August 18, 2016, 12:53:49 PM
I love Rimworld very much..
Please change away the Drugs its really not good.

To be fair I have dealt with addiction throughout my life (I am 44) and have lost friends and family members to drug addiction and overdose. It is a horrible thing and I have sympathy for your perspective in this area. However unlike in real life, in Rimworld you the player have the power to control drugs and their use. If you find them morally repellent, it's a simple thing to not involve them in your game. My confusion is that you're OK with slavery and organ harvesting but drugs and addiction are over the line. This is a game, a gritty and adult game, but still a game.

Using realistic labels for drugs is a psychological trigger for people who are trying to avoid using them. And any addict, serious about recovery, wants to minimize exposure to these triggers.

While this is a minority of people in the world, a lot of addicts play video games due to both drugs and video games stimulating the same part of the brain responsible for addiction -- so you should consider this demographic.

Looking at the comments I just Wow!
Sorry for my ignorance and over exaggerate feedback.

GG guys gg to the world..

Hey Tynan, this is a very basic colony with marijuana and coca growing. I have a drug lab but haven't been able to figure out how to get neutroamine yet for anti malatia production.

Anyway I will continue playing this save and will upload a further along game tonight, especially if I can get some real drugs going, but as it is this has the capability to produce joints and I've set up a joint regiment.

If I can I'll also try to get the deep mining going but it looks like that will take a while. Honestly all this focus on drug production and I've left my normal research path - and a few other things - pretty far behind where I'd like to me.

Also I hope uploading the file as an attachment here is appropriate.

[attachment deleted by admin - too old]

Quote from: Siollear on August 18, 2016, 02:58:35 PM
Using realistic labels for drugs is a psychological trigger for people who are trying to avoid using them. And any addict, serious about recovery, wants to minimize exposure to these triggers.

While this is a minority of people in the world, a lot of addicts play video games due to both drugs and video games stimulating the same part of the brain responsible for addiction -- so you should consider this demographic.

This is a lot more understandable and respectful. Normally I'd say they should play a different game, but I think a game as good as RimWorld could benefit from being aware of these demographics. I think, rather than a toggleable pg mode, you can disable certain features in the options menu, like drugs or organ harvesting.

Obviously it's a good idea not to get too deep into this feature toggling system because you'll never be able to please everyone, but i still think a small toggle-menu would be beneficial to certain demographics.

Quote from: pdxsean on August 18, 2016, 03:12:00 PM
Hey Tynan, this is a very basic colony with marijuana and coca growing. I have a drug lab but haven't been able to figure out how to get neutroamine yet for anti malatia production.

Neutroamine is from bulk goods traders. I had one come by with about 300 bottles of the stuff.

Quote from: Michigo on August 18, 2016, 07:16:12 AM

Quote from: kanukki on August 18, 2016, 06:36:37 AM
Hey Tynan, I just started up and was a bit surprised to see drugs as 'marijuana' and 'coca'. I'm certainly not offended myself, but I imagine not all folks/govts/game ratings boards are as enlightened. I think Prison Architect (or some other game?) had to change the realistic names of the drugs to more fantasy names to avoid potential trouble.

Many older games have avoided real drug names for this very reason.

The important question is:
Does it matter in 2016, or is it a problem of the past?

It will likely still be a topic that a game explicitly allows you to make and use crack, even suggesting it can be positive to a degree. It's obviously an old issue, but it's still very much a taboo. Even games like GTA skirt what they actually call the drugs, or how often the name of the drug is mentioned if they use it, and it's almost always a topic with a non-positive tone. Marijuana and booze excluded, obviously.

I would echo what kanukki's suggesting and change the drug names so they less directly parallel real-world cultural concerns. Plus it's the year 2XXX so who knows what drugs people are into in the future, there's creative room for this.

Quote from: newcadence on August 18, 2016, 03:17:20 PM
Neutroamine is from bulk goods traders. I had one come by with about 300 bottles of the stuff.

Hmm, I thought that might be the case. I've only gotten one so far and he didn't have any. Looks like I need to build the comm center! Thanks for the tip, it's weird having played for so long but still having to learn things as I go.

On the topic, I'm gonna go ahead and agree with the others that all the drug names should be fictionalized.

"I'm fine with all the murder and mutilation and forced organ harvesting and slavery and everything, but not DRUGS!" - some people

lololol

I'm fine with drugs morally, I enjoy em myself at times.
Just... I think that from all the things it was possible to add to the game, out of every possible thing you could invest time and money in, this is the single weakest addition possible.
Both in terms of gameplay and in terms of 'story'.

Gameplay wise, it's not a core system and is totally unnecessary. I know I'll prolly never use it because... what's the point.

Storywise, it makes a story about survival under difficult conditions into a story about making cocaine fields and selling drugs. Instead of growing food and worrying about survival, you grow drugs and worry about profits. It's just badly thought out.


Please for next patch do something meaningful to the core game like a Z-axis, raiding other factions, different endgame goals, water mechanics and use, noise/air pollution, vehichles.. etc.

I was playing on a jungle map with tons of ambient sounds. About 3 hours into playing, a raid occured. In the midst of the firefight, the sound "popped" and the entire game went mute. I had to restart the game to get its sound back.

Quote from: Siollear on August 18, 2016, 02:58:35 PM
Using realistic labels for drugs is a psychological trigger for people who are trying to avoid using them. And any addict, serious about recovery, wants to minimize exposure to these triggers.

I've been there and I agree completely.

Yeah, I think I'll probably rename crack. The other ones are already fictional or obscure names, aside from alcohol and marijuana.

Quote from: Tynan on August 18, 2016, 03:55:22 PM
Yeah, I think I'll probably rename crack. The other ones are already fictional or obscure names, aside from alcohol and marijuana.

Didn't mean for this to become a whole moral temperature taking on drugs, but guess it's good its out there. I think this direction is probably most sensible. I mean we are already in a sci fi world  with other fictional materials, so why not save agony from those who would be offended or have personal triggers.

Quote from: lowdegger on August 18, 2016, 03:34:23 PM
"I'm fine with all the murder and mutilation and forced organ harvesting and slavery and everything, but not DRUGS!" - some people

lololol

I second this, with a slight but:

The real extreme stuff (like murder etc) is such an extreme taboo irl that we can fantasize about it with little to no problem.
Drugs on the other hand are a common problem for many people, i think we are much less likely to see a player go on a slave murdering spree then on a drug binge.

That's why the topic of drug use in games is more sensitive then butchering slaves for their meat and organs.

Personally i'm fine with ANY crazy idea and taboo out there.
I wouldn't mind a feature that allows "breeding" humans just to throw the newborn babies later into a tank of "tame" piranhas for some additional colonist joy and/or as offering to satan himself.  ;D

But i'm pretty sure there is a limit to vile stuff that can be put into the game til to many players start screaming WTF! 

Quote from: kanukki on August 18, 2016, 04:21:49 PM

Quote from: Tynan on August 18, 2016, 03:55:22 PM
Yeah, I think I'll probably rename crack. The other ones are already fictional or obscure names, aside from alcohol and marijuana.

Didn't mean for this to become a whole moral temperature taking on drugs, but guess it's good its out there. I think this direction is probably most sensible. I mean we are already in a sci fi world  with other fictional materials, so why not save agony from those who would be offended or have personal triggers.

Yeah, I'm not so concerned with some abstract notion of morality. But I do want the game to be enjoyable for the maximum number of people.

That, and putting a layer of fiction between the reality and the game gives me some design wiggle room where I can make the drugs act 'unrealistically' if the gameplay design demands it.

Not played alpha 15 yet But I seen in the patchnotes that chance to get hit by friendly fire is reduced by 60%.

That alone will break the good combat in Rimworld and turns combat  into some sort of command and conquer ( Red Alert ) clone.
I do exaggerate it a bit but this "fix" is doing more harm then good or maybe you want the game being more casual then for my liking.

Friendly fire did a lot of good for the combat system while it had its flaws. You should have address the real problem but that's not as easy done as changing 1 line of coding.

I gotta say, I love the new system specifically because of the different types of stories it can create. You also don't "have to do it" which makes each new game have more unique options versus something absolutely required. I'm fine if the drugs are fictional or named off of real ones, but if you chose to go the Fallout role with naming things like jet that's understandable giving other people possibly having/are struggling with real drug addiction. (Though I vote for keeping marijuana the same name as well)

One moment that literally had me laughing out loud from the new system though was when my colonists were all injured after Randy Random decided to send two entire raider parties from separate directions at me, leaving the colonists in a horrible state by the time it was all over. Heaters broken in the middle of winter, exhausted, walls half burned down, blood everywhere. They were all on the verge of cracking.

And then Randy Random decided to send a drop pod shipment of 20 units of crack right next to my half destroyed base. That smug, taunting bastard was just goading them to stop resisting and give in to temptation :D

I wouldn't worry about the friendly fire debuff too much. When I was playing my colonists seemed to do a fine job at accidentally shooting each other.

Love the new alpha but i am a bit concerned about disabling melee hunting. I does't affect me too much since i like to micromanage and draft in order to hunt but i imagine some don't have that kind of patience, killing small game could potentially be a pain in the ass too. Also i went out of my way to check if you can roll an incapable of fighting colonist during the tutorial, it seems not to be the case which is rather nice. Overall i love the update, keep up the good work.

It would seem tobacco would be a more appropriate "drug" to add, since it was the critical crop of the American colonies.  It would be useful to have a cash crop.

I think the Fallout games are a good example of how drugs like beer and go-juice and crack are a good addition in terms of gameplay and and fiction for a survival game like this. They're part of the psychological tight-rope of survival: take coke to get through the day of fear and pain, but worry about becoming dependent on it. Then a herd of elephants shows up and chases you into your house so you can't get to the coke store. This isn't supposed to be Walden, after all. It's a game about having too many problems. The temptation to buff my pawns' moods at the risk of making them even more unhinged is definitely more fun than playing Rimworld like Banished.

While these are worthwhile discussions I am really still looking for general play feedback on balance and such.

Nobody's actually really tested a long-term drug-using colony so I don't know at all how it'd work out!

unfortunatly havent gotten arount to playing yet, just looking at the changelog thogh, the feeling i get is that there are too many drugs that only provide pleasure... what is the point of weed if alcahol seems to be essentially the same? same with yayo and flake. some more variety in what they do would be nice, as well as possibly calm down some of the people upset by the system of they are more performance enchancing stimulats than they are purely addictive recreation. maybye add some more preventative drugs, and possibly replace one of the pleasure drugs with say, a pain dulling drug? one that improves recruitment chance but has a horrible withdral? sleep replacement? (with side effects if the colonist stays up for too long.) ads protection from cold temps but increases hunger? just some more types to add to the mechanic and possibly make it seem less like adding drugs for the sake of having drugs.

Quote from: Tynan on August 18, 2016, 07:34:43 PM
While these are worthwhile discussions I am really still looking for general play feedback on balance and such.

Nobody's actually really tested a long-term drug-using colony so I don't know at all how it'd work out!

I tried this new alpha but my save got corrupted short after an update, so here what I have to say.
(I didn't have the time to try them, only tested the trade)
The drug are too expensive, you can get a lot of easy money just with the joints.
That component, required for some drugs, are only purchasable ? Because if you need to make drug with it because your colonists need it, I don't think there is enough traders or enough 'things' to buy. (If it's supposed to be late, why can we search these drugs so early ?)
And I find annoying the fact when you're making beer, the colonist don't put the bucket directly in the barrel, in a sens, it's like a storage.

That's the best I did, even if it's a really poor review.

The drug system is okay, but Rimworld was never meant to just be an okay game. It feels...out of place and unfinished. I would like to see it be more useful though, for instance, make it possible to craft medicine from combining the different herbs.
Give us a reason for getting our colonists addicted, such as morphine addiction (just get some opium fields going, shouldn't  be too much of a stretch) after surgery, or medicinal use for those who have constant pain.

The medicine thing has felt missing in the past few versions of Rimworld, and I can only assume that it's planned in the near future anyway?

With the new drug system, I feel that you would also need some way to detox your colonists, other than just letting them run dry.
It would make sense for it to be a new use for normal medicine - requiring doctor's assistance to get them clean. Keeping up the treatments every so and so many hours. Much the same as the diseases that are already in the game.

It's also rather annoying that you can't use the hydroponics to grow drugs. I know you're not a massive fan of us who play on icesheets, but it would make sense to allow them to be grown hydroponically - at the very least weed, which is a common thing in real life anyway. 

so far like the update but with the maps do you just need the map or does it need to be a video?

While we're on the topic of renaming, I must admit I was at first slightly turned off that all the crops were typical earth crops. Where did we get these dang seeds? Even in Fallout, we don't get normal crops.

Maybe this is just nitpicky, though why not make the default crops we get on the planet all alien and weird. Then through trading you could come across regular Earth seeds to plant that would be slightly more nutritious?

Anyhow. I'll give the update a go again, I got terribly wiped out by randy in the first two months.

Quote from: drew509 on August 18, 2016, 10:38:54 PM
so far like the update but with the maps do you just need the map or does it need to be a video?

The idea is that you upload the map and Tynan shoots a video on it.

I am shocked that people are freaking out that there is drugs in rimworld. I mean, Fallout, GTA, almost any major game has drugs in it. I'm pretty sure you could disable drugs if you realllllllllllly bothered you, but you could skip it. If you don't like it, don't do it.

Back on topic:
I think that the drugs have a interesting system, if you look at fallout, then it's clear that it's a good place to create new game play systems. X-Cell, daytripper and psycho is examples of good drugs inside fallout that are unique and are noteworthy. Although, it feels barebones. There needs to be more drugs. Drugs that mess your people up. Drugs that increase a random stat. Drugs that level you up. (Glitterworld drugs?) I would also love if maybe that people don't know what's going on. (Eg, you butcher a human, everyone instantly knows. Eat a human meal and you have never tasted a human meal before, but you get angry anyway) So if you get a person that really likes that glitterworld drugs, you the player can stop it. But it would allow someone to find out, then try and stop that person. Or allow humans meals to be served, and no one bats the eye.... well in till they look into the freezer. Interventions, group chats, chats out in order to change ones way of thought. (eg, traits, skills) It's a world of possibility. 

I'm thinking I will add a few more exotic drugs before release - see what I can do within the existing game systems without a lot more coding.

Of course further drug content can be added in future alphas.

The learner alert thing should have a quality section showing  the rank of quality

I don't think beginners would know

awful<shoddy<poor< etc...

The "Cover and Shooting" Tooltip has lots of errors

"The most important thing to do in ranged combat is to use behind cover
Cover only works if your colonist it touching it, and it is between your colonist and the and the enemy shooting at you .
You can also place colonist just behind wall corners.  They will lean to shoot out.
Most things can be used as cover, but some things are better than others.  Hiding behind a tree is better than nothing, but hiding behind sandbags is better than using a tree."

Reworded...

The most important advantage you can gain in ranged combat is better cover.  Cover only works if your colonist is touching it, and if it's between them and incoming fire.  There are several different types of cover, some better than others.  A tree offers some protection, but fighting from behind sandbags is preferable.  Colonists can also fire from just behind the corner of a wall.  They will lean out to shoot.  With any character selected, you can mouse over any potential target to display that character's chance to hit.

With some relevant info added at the end.

Thanks for the heads up!

I keep getting this error when loading up the game.

I completely wiped the pc of old RW files before installing the new unstable branch.

[attachment deleted by admin - too old]

Also with the build copy - not sure if I am doing it wrong but I can only build copy individual blocks, is there a way to select and build copy a whole room?

Quote from: LilN on August 19, 2016, 06:28:59 AM
I keep getting this error when loading up the game.

I completely wiped the pc of old RW files before installing the new unstable branch.

You are not the only one , the same happens to me , is just a bug or something from the new build , remember that this is a development build!

Hi Tynan,

Absolutely love the game, been playing since A12 and have spent more hours on it than I'd like to admit. Thanks for all the fun, mate! There, got the squealing fanboyism out of the way...

Just a heads up with the drug naming. I am from Australia. We are known for our very strict (and rather confusing) gaming classification laws. The classification board gets iffy with any specific references to drugs. Fallout 3, for example, had to change morphine into med-x to avoid being banned for sale in our country.

For peace of mind I'd suggest renaming all real world drugs into something slightly goofy (including weed as that stuff is mostly illegal here). Crack to hole, weed to chillaxer etc. I know those examples where lame, don't judge, I'm not that creative! Anything that isn't real life slang, I guess. Doing so should also placate some of the real life teetotalers.

Just some food for thought. I would be devastated if this fine game became region locked over something as trivial as drug names...

i have a bit of a balance gripe today after starting something new. I rolled an amphetamine addict on rich explorer scenario, she started with a single fix which is fine with me. What i think is a bit weak is the withdrawal, after about three or four days she was completely clean of her addiction. Personally i never took drugs, but I am a smoker so I know how hard it can be to let go of your addiction. Just something to keep in mind while balancing the new alpha. Cheers :)

Quote from: axeladalidez on August 19, 2016, 07:58:29 AM

You are not the only one , the same happens to me , is just a bug or something from the new build , remember that this is a development build!

I know just thought I would report it :)

a15 ??? oh no? not again. and this mean and i must downloading , setting, playing, arranging everything including editing , troubleshooting , compiling, sorting ,picking and crashing overtimes , and doing it from a scratch ? and......that!.  is Really reaaaallly,.... annoying . can rimworld had old mod compability ? i playing game for fun, running away from confusing of the real world . like skyrim? it has update from 1.0 until 1.9.2.3.0.8 still old mod run and compatible, not the mentioning adding new 2 add on, can rimworld will become old saves and mod and setting compability.? i am sorry if this is too much annoying of me for you . its just my personal perspective feeling about whatsoever i must do.

Quote from: ruzackovich on August 19, 2016, 09:42:10 AM
a15 ??? oh no? not again. and this mean and i must downloading , setting, playing, arranging everything including editing , troubleshooting , compiling, sorting ,picking and crashing overtimes , and doing it from a scratch ? and......that!.  is Really reaaaallly,.... annoying . can rimworld had old mod compability ? i playing game for fun, running away from confusing of the real world . like skyrim? it has update from 1.0 until 1.9.2.3.0.8 still old mod run and compatible, not the mentioning adding new 2 add on, can rimworld will become old saves and mod and setting compability.? i am sorry if this is too much annoying of me for you . its just my personal perspective feeling about whatsoever i must do.

Yeah, we want a game with one update every year..
That's an alpha, it's supposed to be updated until the final release, adding new features so quickly is something really good for RimWorld.

It seems that I have a problem with the colonist portraits at the top of the screen, after a while it just disappears and i can't pinpoint the exact moment. The issue isn't carried over to other worlds, but after a while it disappears there too. Reloading the game isn't working, and loading the previous save fixes the problem for a short time and then it's gone again. Am I just stupid and there is a shortcut to hide it? Maybe there is a way to force it to appear via developer mode?

Nvm just found it, for anyone concerned it's a new button under the time controls.

Quote from: Tynan on August 19, 2016, 01:18:03 AM
I'm thinking I will add a few more exotic drugs before release - see what I can do within the existing game systems without a lot more coding.

Of course further drug content can be added in future alphas.

Went to sleep hoping for nothing more than perhaps a reply - woke up to find it all implemented. Pretty damn awesome!

Will we be able to craft Neutroamine on our own in the future, or would that conflict with the design goals?  It feels like we should be able to, but I can also see reasons for not allowing the players to craft it.

A15 is starting to feel pretty damn good :)

Haven't played the test, but I read the patch notes and have one comment.

I hate it when a tutorial locks controls it doesn't "want" me to use.  "Press shift+E to scratch your nose.  Good!  Now don't press that for the next 20 minutes because it won't work any more.  You already learned that so I hope you fucking memorized it after doing it one time!"  Horrible, horrible way to teach something.

New build is up with a fix to that ManualPriorities bug.

Will look into withdrawal timing. This is the first time it was tested :)

Yeah, the addiction system balance was crazy off; it's all fixed for next build (tonight probably).

Found a bug , three of my colonist are hurt , and both of them go to bed ,one wakes up and heals one of them BUT the colonist that is being healed  wakes up and heals the other one , creating an infinite loop. Unless one of them is hungry and that totally breaks the loop.

Both beds are in the same room and next to the other.

Quote from: axeladalidez on August 19, 2016, 04:08:39 PM
Found a bug , three of my colonist are hurt , and both of them go to bed ,one wakes up and heals one of them BUT the colonist that is being healed  wakes up and heals the other one , creating an infinite loop. Unless one of them is hungry and that totally breaks the loop.

Both beds are in the same room and next to the other.

Can you explain a bit more?

Colonists A and B and C are all hurt. All 3 go to bed? Or 2 of them do? Please just explain a bit more, thanks.

Okay, so I've had a little time to fool around with the alpha, mostly in dev mode.  I hope somebody has gotten a working colony for you yet.  Anyway here are my thoughts so far...

The drugs seem well implemented and balanced, although that's just an initial impression.  Quick question, no hydroponic marijuana?  The fermentation process for beer was a good addition.  The tool tips probably need to be rewritten.  It's hard for me to comment on how useful they are, since they're aimed at a new player.  No matter what anyone says, disabling melee hunting was a good choice as was the FF reduction.

Increasing the work required to grow was a good idea, it focuses the game back on survival a bit and reduces the problem where players were bringing in absolutely massive harvests in a way that's balanced across biomes.  Debuffing corn was a good idea, although it's hard to comment on balance because we don't have access to units per harvest info (unless I'm misunderstanding something, I've never quite figured out how nutrition value works unless it only applies to uncooked food).  By the way, that would be good, and should probably be included in the crop info.  There's a lot of stats in this game that are quite difficult to parse.  For example I have been trying to figure out for a long time whether dairy is at all a viable option for colonies, but no one on the internet seems to know what "hunger rate" translates into. 

Actually, when you hover over a potential crop choice relevant crop info should become visible.  Also, I'm pretty sure this is an issue with this alpha, unless it's always been this way and I forget, but "rose and day lily" probably shouldn't be the first and second crop options ahead of potato, but placed with dandelions right before trees in the list.

The changes to agriculture make me realize that really growing should be a three step process, tilling, sowing, harvesting.  And then I realize that's about to drift off into a suggestions thread (tractors? plow animals?).

The thing though is that I realize I'm probably not actually going to use drugs in my colony.  It's just people have a tendency to roleplay "good", you start to kind of care about your colonists and not want them to be crack addicts.  For instance, I find that of the colonies I've made, I just spend less time at the ice sheet one.  I just like the cannibal engie, legendary constructor of human-leather armchairs, less than my party-throwing night-owl engie.  Not that cannibalism, like drugs, doesn't add a lot of breadth to the game.  My concern is just a lot of people won't actually use these new crops, even though they are balanced.  Compare that to lets say the hypothetical ability to plant an orchard, that wouldn't add much to the systems, but it's something you'd see in every colony. 

My other point, which I think some people have brought up, is that it does seem an odd focus right now.  It's a well appreciated addition, but some changes to the core game should probably be a higher priority, such as improving the UI.  I know this belongs in the suggestion thread, but please indulge my nattering.. (no way to quickly scan moods across the colony, no way to quickly figure out who is carrying which weapons, no way to get pets to easily stay when their master is drafted, no button to toggle colony-wide outfit change, no button to assign all pets to their bonded companions colony-wide, and no space-saving storage containers: mostly all available with mods that, when playing the new alpha, really remind you how much they're missed from the base game). 

Finally, the fast pace of these alphas is really staggering, and it shows how much you as the developer are dedicated to this game and its players.  With it out now on steam, even on early access, from the number of people concerned about backward compatibility, and the size of the modding community, maybe larger updates on a slower schedule might be a good idea. 

But let me just say, this update, like the rest of this game, continues to impress.

Thanks for the feedback SM88, very helpful.

I actually don't think most players will use drugs a lot in later game. Some will have to deal with recruited pirates who have addictions and such. In other cases chemical interest pawns may be a problem. But certainly the goal here was never to make every colony into a drug hub, and if they don't become so that's fine. I think players may run a lot of drug colonies soon after A15 but over time it'll reach a more reasonable balance point and we'll hear things like, "arg, I keep capturing pirates but they're all addicted to flake" or something, which I think would be kind of cool.

As for UI improvements, I am always working on these sorts of things but it's an endless task of solving some issues and then seeing what new suggestions come into focus. It's more complicated by the fact that what seems like an obvious need to you may be totally countermanded by things others want. What I've observed in absorbing large amounts of feedback about this is that individuals tend to have personal wishes they think are really obvious and necessary, but that often they're very different between different people, and quite playstyle- and skill level-specific. So it's really a process that necessarily takes a long time and a lot of feedback absorption (which I do at several hours per day). In any case, it's not really a matter of either/or, so the UI improvements will necessarily come along with features additions.

Next alpha will probably be bigger and take longer than this one because I agree about the release pacing, I just really wanted to get the tutorial in.

Quote from: Tynan on August 19, 2016, 04:22:31 PM

Quote from: axeladalidez on August 19, 2016, 04:08:39 PM
Found a bug , three of my colonist are hurt , and both of them go to bed ,one wakes up and heals one of them BUT the colonist that is being healed  wakes up and heals the other one , creating an infinite loop. Unless one of them is hungry and that totally breaks the loop.

Both beds are in the same room and next to the other.

Can you explain a bit more?

Colonists A and B and C are all hurt. All 3 go to bed? Or 2 of them do? Please just explain a bit more, thanks.

(A) , (B) and (C) go to the bed . (A) decides to wake up and heal (B) , but (B) wakes up and heals (C) so (A) goes to bed , and now (C) wakes up and heals (A) so (B) goes to bed , and this creates an infinite loop but thanks to the new update they don't do this all day and they go to get some food , it was just a bug that lasted half a minute , after that they healed each other without any problem.

That will happen if A B or C are doctors and have the priority for the Doctor job set higher than Patient and/or Bed Rest.

Oh thanks , I didn't know , but it's set to automatic priority.

Hydroponic marijuana seems like a no-brainer!   ;)

Thanks Tynan,

I forgot this, so I edited it in.  But is marijuana supposed to not be growable hydroponically?

Quote from: SimpleMachine88 on August 19, 2016, 05:57:46 PM
Thanks Tynan,

I forgot this, so I edited it in.  But is marijuana supposed to not be growable hydroponically?

It is now, I fixed that.

I've just updated the unstable branch with a new build.

-Added Luciferium (see blog post)
-Addiction tuning/timing completely reworked
-Traders carry drugs a lot more now, and properly
-Mood shown on colonist row at top of screen
-Misc fixes

Quote from: Tynan on August 19, 2016, 08:00:01 PM
I've just updated the unstable branch with a new build.

-Added Luciferium (see blog post)
-Addiction tuning/timing completely reworked
-Traders carry drugs a lot more now, and properly
-Mood shown on colonist row at top of screen
-Misc fixes

I don't see anything about Luciferium in the blog post.

Nice, these drugs are like cheap alternatives to the pain and mood brain implants. x3 And I'm very excited to try out the deep drilling mechanism.

Only one bummer for me so far, and that is that one can't make kibble from hay anymore. Was that intended? Or an oversight when it got moved into the new plant matter group?

Quote from: ShadowTani on August 19, 2016, 08:25:13 PM
Nice, these drugs are like cheap alternatives to the pain and mood brain implants. x3 And I'm very excited to try out the deep drilling mechanism.

Only one bummer for me so far, and that is that one can't make kibble from hay anymore. Was that intended? Or an oversight when it got moved into the new plant matter group?

An oversight. Will fix.

For anyone wondering Luciferium is

Pain x80
Consciousness +25
Moving +25
Blood Filtration +70
Blood Pumping +15
Metabolism +10
Breathing +20
Sight +20
Hearing +20

and yes, it stack with amphetamines.  The only thing is, I don't know how to make it.  It's not at the drug table.  I don't think you can roll its addiction at the start, which is probably good.

The mood display is very useful, and well implemented.

@Mike
It's there, it's been added to the A15 features preview page.

Another quick fix to a game-breaking bug that happens on colonist death, just released.

Quote from: Tynan on August 19, 2016, 09:09:33 PM
Another quick fix to a game-breaking bug that happens on colonist death, just released.

Either I didn't get that update, or that bug is very much still there.
Edit: build 0.15.1270.

Edit2: Never mind. Think I got it now - also noticed that the build version doesn't change despite updates.

Build version is based on the day.

Tynan, question: what do you consider the "default" Storyteller/Difficulty for balance-testing purposes?

I've made a post about this on Reddit, but after looking around, I suppose this is the place it belongs. Nevertheless I will link the post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/4ylnxn/issue_with_alpha_15s_introduction_of_marijuana/

When you harvest marijuana plants in Alpha 15, the product is a box of leaves. However, the potent part of a marijuana plant is the flower (bud). Harvesting just the leaves to smoke would be quite inefficient ;)
The artwork for the box of leaves is fantastic, but perhaps for the sake of accuracy, it should be changed to a box of trimmed, dried bud.

I did a quick search through the 6 pages on this thread and didn't see this mentioned. I may have missed it. If I did, I apologize.

Pretty interesting so far.  Any plans to tweak market values on the drugs?  Right now the value of crafted drugs vs the value of the components to make those drugs is pretty minuscule.  I started a "raider" colony focused around the idea of growing / producing drugs and right now there doesn't seem to be much advantage to producing final products vs just growing the base plants as a cash crop.  Also, with the advanced drugs, seems about the best you can hope for is to break even due to the cost of the neutroamine (impossible to craft?). 

Also, I like the concept of being able to call for a trade caravan, but with the high cost (well high for early and mid game) you may want to consider adding an option for what kind of caravan arrives.  Kinda stinks to request one then have it show up and not be able to buy the kind of goods you actually have to trade.

Can marijuana be made into a material? We should be able to make hemp shirts and hemp pants :D

Do we assume everyone has radios to call other civs? Or should we have to build one to get trade that way? Could build drama and a story to have to get a radio repaired while you are under attack and call for help or someone is sick and you need meds but the radio is busted.. etc.

Hooray! Found a bug!

Fertilized eggs don't stack, but are in the same location. Right now I have 165 eggs in two different spots in my stockpile. All fertilized such, frozen. http://i.imgur.com/xSq3uRH.png

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 19, 2016, 11:01:14 PM
Would that change the gameplay at all? I don't see why the game should focus too much on the accuracies of the drug manufacturing. If you want to go into details, you need a LOT more than just the coca leafs to make coke too.

And tbh, you can use the leafs to make hashish anyway. It's from the same plant, and 'joint' doesn't specify the contents of it.

No, it would not change the gameplay at all. This would purely be a simple cosmetic change that would help immerse players. I would argue that the pretend aspect of this game is one of it's strengths, and that inaccuracies (which is different from simplification) would harm it. The difference between this and your coke example is the difference between inaccuracy and simplification.

I wouldn't consider this about the details as much as it is about the entire process of cultivating marijuana. It's incredibly strange that the harvested goods from a marijuana plant are represented as leaves. There's no denying that there are uses for the leaves, and that some growers keep it for a secondary use, but for it to represent the yield of a marijuana crop would be the equivalent to harvesting corn leaves and throwing away the cob, or chopping down a tree for the bark.

Thank you very much for the 60% reduction on friendly fire.

Is there (or will there ever be) a way to completely mod that feature out of the game ? Or at least make it so that pets don't "dance" (moving back and forth) around their owners when they start shooting, since you said (I'm glad that you did!) that you wanted animals to be of better use to players ?

The same with any wildlife or wandering traders who seem to be automagically lured to wherever my colonists are fighting, to stupidly die to a couple of bullets ? It isn't the penalties the game throws at the player (diplomacy w/ factions, aiming I imagine) that bother me, it just looks... a bit face-palm inducing knowing that most everything alive (and without a gun) tends to *flee* from gunfire.

Next, I can't say I am really excited about the drug features of a15 (I probably won't use them), but there are alot of other nice features to make up for them : the cooling room, the medecine crafting, the new aggregated armor stats in the UI, etc.

Can we expect to get the "re-balancing of the game" with the next (a16) version ?

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 19, 2016, 11:52:21 PM

Quote from: applefoot on August 19, 2016, 11:40:19 PM

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 19, 2016, 11:01:14 PM
Would that change the gameplay at all? I don't see why the game should focus too much on the accuracies of the drug manufacturing. If you want to go into details, you need a LOT more than just the coca leafs to make coke too.

And tbh, you can use the leafs to make hashish anyway. It's from the same plant, and 'joint' doesn't specify the contents of it.

No, it would not change the gameplay at all. This would purely be a simple cosmetic change that would help immerse players. I would argue that the pretend aspect of this game is one of it's strengths, and that inaccuracies (which is different from simplification) would harm it. The difference between this and your coke example is the difference between inaccuracy and simplification.

I wouldn't consider this about the details as much as it is about the entire process of cultivating marijuana. It's incredibly strange that the harvested goods from a marijuana plant are represented as leaves. There's no denying that there are uses for the leaves, and that some growers keep it for a secondary use, but for it to represent the yield of a marijuana crop would be the equivalent to harvesting corn leaves and throwing away the cob, or chopping down a tree for the bark.

Whenever most people think of cannabis, they think of the leaf, not the buds. When I say most people, I mean "people who don't (usually) use cannabis".

I agree with you there. Marijuana is represented widely by it's leaf as a symbol. If that's the rationale for the developer's decision and it's a matter of design, then so be it.

My stance is that it hurts immersion, and spreads misconception. One thing I really love about this game is learning a little bit here and there about how things are done, however simplified the information is. It's why I take issue with inaccuracy and not simplification.

Applefoot, this really isn't the time or the place for that discussion. I'm going to delete the posts I have made here, since they really don't belong under this topic, and I suggest you do the same.

bug in the tutorial, I had a couple guys get downed by the single raider, and then were sent to bed. The tutorial explained how you should undraft them, but since they were in bed incapacitated, I couldnt undraft them. Then the order got weird when one guy got out of bed before the others. Does that make sense?

Feedback item #1:
As someone who hasn't played since probably Alpha 12 or so, I find it really annoying when my colonists get picked off by hungry animals out in the wilderness. I expect colonists to either more intelligently fight back or more intelligently avoid hungry animals. Even near my base they get picked off sometimes without me really knowing it. The turrets don't seem to target hungry animals; just mad animals. Sometimes I can't get colonists out to the front door fast enough to help out. Especially in the snow. It seems like wild animals don't bother my colonists until around winter time when they get really hungry.

Perhaps have a setting where you can force colonists to travel in pairs when they go outside of home? Hunting in pairs too maybe?

Feedback #2:
People go into a daze a lot. That's fine, but I wish there was a way to help them out. Either by talking to them or bringing them back to the fire for a chat or something. If I recall correctly, you used to be able to rescue people who are in a daze. Doesn't seem like you can do this anymore without imprisoning them.

Possible bug:
When a prisoner dies of illness, my colonists get sad. If you just shoot the bastard on the ground after you incapacitate him (without capturing him), nobody cares. Is it intended that my people get sad when "innocent" prisoners die? The bastard attacked my colony and I chose to give him a second chance at life. If he dies after the fact, my colonists shouldn't care. There's nothing "innocent" about these prisoners.   If I was capturing peaceful traders or something, I could see my colonists having moral issues when they die in the dungeon, but that's a different case.

Positive feedback:
I love being able to customize my scenario. I don't know when you added that, but being able to start with almost nothing and no weapons is lots of fun. It's hard! Good feature.

Quote from: waxtats on August 20, 2016, 02:58:01 AMEven near my base they get picked off sometimes without me really knowing it.

I would like to second that, and extend it to anything reasonably visible to my colonists. I recently had a grizzly that snuck deeply into my base, bypassing turrets, and started to attack one of my tamed timber wolf pups, to feed on it I guess.

I wouldn't have been aware of it if my machine gunner hadn't opened fire on the grizzly (badly mauling the poor pup's jaw in the process) and I wasn't close to my base inspecting it.

Does anyone else have any issues with kibble? My pets seem to get sick about 50% of the time they eat it.

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 20, 2016, 03:26:46 AM
Does anyone else have any issues with kibble? My pets seem to get sick about 50% of the time they eat it.

That's probably because you have an unskilled Cook making that kibble. The more Cook skill, the lower chance of a prepared meal (or kibble) causing food poisoning.

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 20, 2016, 04:48:56 AM

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 20, 2016, 03:26:46 AM
Does anyone else have any issues with kibble? My pets seem to get sick about 50% of the time they eat it.

That's probably because you have an unskilled Cook making that kibble. The more Cook skill, the lower chance of a prepared meal (or kibble) causing food poisoning.

14 cooking. It's also happening with rice. A LOT of hazardous food in my base, apparently.

Hey, I'm really enjoying A15, but found a bug. One of my turrets exploded and killed a few people, including one of my pawns. It also destroyed a few power cables nearby. The following red message came up immediately after. (hopefully the screenshot comes up, but if not the msg said "NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object").

added: okay my game is majorly borked. I've got 5 pawns left alive, but if you look at the colonist bar on top, there's only two showing, and the third box is blank. And I can't do anything more in the game (UI isn't coming up properly, can't issue commands etc).

[attachment deleted by admin - too old]

But some feedback in general. I'm a gaming veteran of 30+ years (first played Atari when I was a wee 4 year old in the early 80s). And this game, by far, is one of the BEST I've ever played in my life. I like how drug manufacturing provides an alternative revenue stream, as growing cotton and corn gets boring pretty quick.

Hello...

--In addition to the helpers being a bit confusing as noted so far in the thread, the placement of messages in general is confusing. The helpers say notes appear on the right, but they also appear way up at the top of the screen. Notifications should happen in one place. They also shouldn't disappear until I tell them to. I get bit by events and colonists die because I didn't catch an event.

--How is it we can fly through space and use drop pods but we can't throw an old shirt in a fire..? We have steel, is it really that hard to have a barrel and light a fire in it and burn old stuff we don't want..?

--Friendly fire is a huge improvement, but still doesn't stop pawns from running or carrying something right up the barrel of a mini gun. No common sense there at all. Unfortunately something that plagues many aspects of pawn behavior...

--The Raw Resources tab is hiding under Manufactured... Is backwards to me. Would like raw anything to be it's own category please.

--Food poisoning is happening way too often after having dedicated food services. This is one place having water in the game should matter. As it is I have to assume when the area is clean, it's clean. Everything is frozen all the time from carcass to meal, shouldn't be having food poisoning like this. It should depend on cleanliness and refrigeration, not just be an arbitrary "you're level this so people gonna be sick"...

--Build a copy would be downright stupendous if it also copied the bills... And if you could clone storage fields as well instead of just the copy paste. It is a huge time saver for furniture though...

--Be nice to have a buffer in the UI for the screen edge. Not having the screen move when checking messages and stock items would go a long way to avoiding dizzy spells and sea sickness... (personal issue)

--I think the animals are also in on the whole drug addition. Mad animals are bat fecal matter crazy. Way too @$#% many of them for my tastes. Be different if we had a column in the work schedule for "Support" that would allow me to have pawns on standby drop what they're doing and go help shoot or rescue. As it is, with this much mad (insert animal name here) disease going on I feel like I have to hunt manually all the time, which defeats the whole purpose of the priorities, which in turn takes much away from enjoying the game as a whole.

--I traded for 5 joints. I have a drug policy that my people can have 1 drug every 5 days, just to see if it works by timer and to see how the drugs are dispensed. 3 of my pawns get baked. No one knows what happened to the other 2 joints... Me thinks my pawns tried to do teh maths after they sparked. In my mind, 1 equals 1. 1 joint, 1 "dose". When I set the policy to 1, I fully expect there to be 5 colonists high, not 3.

As for the whole drug thing, I get why some would be against it or feel triggered by it etc. But as I look at it from a human standpoint, we all seek distractions in times of huge stress and their environments. I'd say crashing into a planet in a pod and having to build a new life to survive qualifies. Some turn to religion, some to superstition, others to booze and drugs. I'll never have a meth lab or be a drug kingpin, but I won't make my pawns deal with life my way. I'm not them. Having pawns with tendencies and dependencies and having to work my way around them to survive just adds another layer of complexity in the quest for a smooth running colony. I don't think that's a bad thing.

I only got this after it steam, but already it's become one of those love/hate games that can raise you to bliss and smash you to the ground in seconds; one you can't let go of no matter what it does to you. I also can't wait for the mods to catch up. I miss my storage..!

Cheers..!

EDIT:
-- On reload the breakdown for materials is good. (Bug on my end..?)

-- I had a colonist go on a smoking binge and use up half of my joints. After this I cut her off, setting her drug policy to NONE. On the fifth day after this I caught her smoking a joint as per her previous policy setting. (Bug)

Is it my imagination or is grass (literal grass, not marijuana) not spreading at the rate it used to?

Thank you for the notes everyone!

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 19, 2016, 11:25:27 PM
Hooray! Found a bug!

Fertilized eggs don't stack, but are in the same location. Right now I have 165 eggs in two different spots in my stockpile. All fertilized such, frozen. http://i.imgur.com/xSq3uRH.png

Do you know how to reproduce that?

Quote from: Ambigore on August 20, 2016, 06:54:14 AM
Hey, I'm really enjoying A15, but found a bug. One of my turrets exploded and killed a few people, including one of my pawns. It also destroyed a few power cables nearby. The following red message came up immediately after. (hopefully the screenshot comes up, but if not the msg said "NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object").

Fixed already, please update.

Doc Savage - Thanks for the notes, just be aware that pawns will take drugs outside their policy, for joy or binges or whatever. Policy says what they must take, but they can take more if they choose.

Got it. It's to do with the freezing of the eggs, and the embryo being destroyed.

The eggs go from "Egg progress: X%" to "Egg progress: Damaged embryo", two items that are not considered the same by the game.

This means that unless they are automatically stacked when they change to damaged, they will still think that they should be in their old stack (the one they were first put in). New eggs that come in with X% progress, will then be put in a new stack on top of the old because they aren't supposed to stack with destroyed ones. Then the embryo is destroyed, and you get another grouping of eggs in the same stack.

So yeah, it's definitely to do with the item type being changed. To reproduce it, just get a freezer with -30C, a couple of chickens (male and female, so they can do it like they do on the discovery channel), A storage area, and someone to fetch the eggs.

It's not a major issue, as it doesn't cause any real problems. The items all work fine, it's just that it looks weird.

How do you produce joints from marijuana leaves and coke from coca leaves? I am feeling very stupid here, as I assume this is fairly obvious to others due to nobody else asking. Thanks!

Quote from: featherj on August 20, 2016, 03:20:45 PM
How do you produce joints from marijuana leaves and coke from coca leaves? I am feeling very stupid here, as I assume this is fairly obvious to others due to nobody else asking. Thanks!

You have to make the crafting spot to make joints. It's the first crafting station available in the production menu. In order to make coke, you'll need the research (Flake and\or Yayo production), as well as having built the "drug lab" workbench. I think you'll need the "Drug production" research in order to make even joints, but I can't be 100% certain on it.

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 20, 2016, 03:26:30 PM

Quote from: featherj on August 20, 2016, 03:20:45 PM
How do you produce joints from marijuana leaves and coke from coca leaves? I am feeling very stupid here, as I assume this is fairly obvious to others due to nobody else asking. Thanks!

You have to make the crafting spot to make joints. It's the first crafting station available in the production menu. In order to make coke, you'll need the research (Flake and\or Yayo production), as well as having built the "drug lab" workbench. I think you'll need the "Drug production" research in order to make even joints, but I can't be 100% certain on it.

You don't need Drug Production to make joints; you can make them by default. They're the only drugs you can make without that research.

Actually, the Flake/Yayo discussion brings up a good point: could you just combine Flake & Yayo production into a single research that references coca leaves in some way? I didn't even know coca was used for Flake & Yayo until I started a scenario with all the drug research already learned and built a drug lab to check the ingredients.

my colony eat pemmcan instead of simple meal. even i seperate pemmican food to make colonist hard to grab it they still pick pemmcan to eat
here video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXyrCjBkBgI

Press F to make the food off limits. I do this with my survival food.

Alright, getting my drug colony up & running, and initial thoughts:

1. Marijuana joints sell for too much.

One harvest from an 8x8 field yielded about 100 joints, which I was able to sell for $800 total. That just about bought me an LMG. That's more than I sold the weapons from 3 raids combined for, and more than I've made from any trade in over 100 hours of playing RimWorld.

2. There should be a way to give drugs to bedridden patients.

I had a patient nearly go berserk due to pain. I couldn't get a joint to him, though, because he was bedridden. This functionality would also be useful for other painkillers.

I've been recording my playthrough for analysis and temporarily stored it here:
https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/profile (https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/profile)

The section I'm talking about in particular is here:
https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/v/84794898 (https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/v/84794898)

(The giant marijuana sale is near the end of that section.)

There also seems to be a bug where if downed enemies catch heatstroke before being captured, it doesn't diminish once they're inside and cooled off.

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 20, 2016, 11:37:42 PM
Alright, getting my drug colony up & running, and initial thoughts:

1. Marijuana joints sell for too much.

One harvest from an 8x8 field yielded about 100 joints, which I was able to sell for $800 total. That just about bought me an LMG. That's more than I sold the weapons from 3 raids combined for, and more than I've made from any trade in over 100 hours of playing RimWorld.

2. There should be a way to give drugs to bedridden patients.

I had a patient nearly go berserk due to pain. I couldn't get a joint to him, though, because he was bedridden. This functionality would also be useful for other painkillers.

I've been recording my playthrough for analysis and temporarily stored it here:
https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/profile (https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/profile)

The section I'm talking about in particular is here:
https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/v/84794898 (https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/v/84794898)

(The giant marijuana sale is near the end of that section.)

Thank you for the economics feedback, it's super useful.

There also seems to be a bug where if downed enemies catch heatstroke before being captured, it doesn't diminish once they're inside and cooled off.

(http://i.imgur.com/M1wBqLN.jpg)

It's at 1:39:00 in this video: https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/v/84794898 (https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/v/84794898)

The marijuana sale I mentioned is at 1:43:30.

Here's something that may change.
The deep-mining is too broken, I get 2500 jades only with a 3x3 when the vein is 7x5. See what I mean ? You can get money too fast without difficulty. That's the same thing for gold and uranium. The thing is I still didn't found any steel veins (I've tried 6 veins). Maybe place more steel and make the other veins more  smaller ?
And do you still take saves for the video ?

Quote from: Mag on August 21, 2016, 12:05:26 AM
Here's something that may change.
The deep-mining is too broken, I get 2500 jades only with a 3x3 when the vein is 7x5. See what I mean ? You can get money too fast without difficulty. That's the same thing for gold and uranium. The thing is I still didn't found any steel veins (I've tried 6 veins). Maybe place more steel and make the other veins more  smaller ?
And do you still take saves for the video ?

If it's unchanged since the first release, then yeah. It's pretty damn overpowered. I got 8000 gold from mining maybe half an hour (real time that is).
I wonder what Tynan had in mind with that layer though. When I first read about it, I assumed it would be an infinite resource, but slower -  Which would've been pretty useful in the long run. Then again, he might have other plans for it. As it is now, it's a bit broken though. At least in my opinion.

Drugs:

A fun mechanic. It's nice to give my stressed artist some weed so she can keep working through the night, or giving Go-Juice to my fighters. Production is simple, and I appreciate that certain drugs need space chemicals.

The negatives are about addiction and withdrawl. Withdrawl symptoms are -extreme- and I have yet to see one of my people get clean, even spending a few seasons locked up.  It's far easier to just make more drugs and keep them hooked rather than sober up. So, unless I missed something, it may be helpful to implement a way for a doctor to assist someone trying to recover instead just hoping they get better. Perhaps similar to an infection, maybe requiring some glitterworld meds?

Mining Equipment

They are excessively overpowered, and make the mid-late game feel trivial. I feel that decreasing the reward would only make them tedious, perhaps you could increase the risk. Toxic gas leaks, buried mechs, geothermal vents, etc.  When I first tested the item I simply put my scanner behind a switch, so I could find the sites and start digging before I switched it off. The power cost is hefty but you can just sidestep it. Maybe the drill malfunctions without an operating scanner? Maybe someone with the mining skill on the scanner gives you better/worse results?

The balance changes are marvelous too. Thank you for all of your hard work.

Not sure if this is a bug or if it's intended, but it doesn't make much sense. The "Teetotaler" trait prevents people from eating chocolate, as well as taking anti-malaria pills. Is this going to be fixed, or is it intended to be that way?

Alright, this has gotten annoying: whenever one of my animals is attacked by a hungry predator, they're utterly screwed. No matter how quickly a colonist leaps in to defend them, the predator will utterly ignore anyone attacking it just to kill and eat its prey. It will even start eating midfight, completely ignoring its attackers. I need a better way to distract predators from the kill or else all my dogs will stay indoors.

Yeah, the price of joints is buggered ATM. I can sell mine for $9.50 and buy Herbal Medicine from the trader for just $4.35. In other words, I can buy 2 Herbal Medicine for each Joint I sell, despite Herbal Medicine being harder to grow.

Quote from: Tynan on August 20, 2016, 02:11:53 PM
Thank you for the notes everyone!

Doc Savage - Thanks for the notes, just be aware that pawns will take drugs outside their policy, for joy or binges or whatever. Policy says what they must take, but they can take more if they choose.

Then the drug policy is like giving a steak to a dog with no teeth.

Sure you'll feed it and care for it for old time's sake, but it really isn't all that useful anymore. Unless that cold snap gets really, really long...

You're giving us an authority tool but no authority figure or mechanism to enforce it. I had a colonist go off the rails in A14 and all I could do was knock them out and arrest them, but then they ended up not part of the colony anymore. (Did I miss something..?) That's not a viable option, that's just survivor in space.

If the pawn in question goes off and uses their free time to grow a patch and roll their own, more power to them. But if they just take from the communal stash whenever they feel like it, they're stealing from the group. Needs to be a way to chain them to a hospital bed or confine them to quarters without losing them. Of course the requisite mental breaks could happen, at which time it may well be best to put them out for good.

Thank you for the response and for the time.

Cheers..!

Not a major thing, but there's a typo in the text for Amphetamine. "Addiction causes reduces mental performance...", should be "reduced".

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 21, 2016, 04:16:47 AM
Not a major thing, but there's a typo in the text for Amphetamine. "Addiction causes reduces mental performance...", should be "reduced".

Thanks very much.

A new build with very rebalanced economy is going up now. Try it!

Just found a bug in the last version: A colonist without Chemical Interest/Fascination had a mental break that caused him to go on a Luciferium Binge. Just one problem: I don't have any Luciferium. (Also, do you really want colonists to randomly binge on a drug that's 100% addictive and kills them during withdrawal?)

Also, what skill does making drugs use? Crafting? Because I currently have 2 Drug Labs and a Crafting Spot (for joints) active and as a result, no one's making stone blocks anymore. What if Drug Lab drugs relied on Medical skill instead? Should there be another worktype specifically for drug-making?

Quote from: Tynan on August 21, 2016, 04:20:33 AM

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 21, 2016, 04:16:47 AM
Not a major thing, but there's a typo in the text for Amphetamine. "Addiction causes reduces mental performance...", should be "reduced".

Thanks very much.

A new build with very rebalanced economy is going up now. Try it!

Should we restart our colonies for this new build? Or should we just continue our colonies from yesterday's build? I just got my drug farm running full tilt.

Also, in the last build, elephants are eating my marijuana leaves without getting high. Are they supposed to?

Some serious nerfs to the prices there. Was it necessary to cut the price of coke in half though?
Amphetamine price: 64 (same as before)
Yayo price: 18 (from 36)

A strange world we're living in. Particularly with the addictiveness of amphetamine being so high. I'd assume people would want to pay more for a drug that was less addictive (casual users, that is. I suppose addicts would swing the other way).

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 21, 2016, 04:32:15 AM
(Also, do you really want colonists to randomly binge on a drug that's 100% addictive and kills them during withdrawal?)

This is why I will kill luciferium holders with EXTREME prejudice. I just dont see it as worth it having it around. Even amphetamines, booze, ect, I can see as a last resort idea, but not that.

You can find Luciferium occasionally in Ancient Dangers. I just found 23 along with 3 scythers.

I don't know why but my colonists still sometimes prefer raw meat over simple meals, sometimes they ignore fine meals, and go for the berries and such. Forbidding is out of the question, my cook works all day to keep population afloat. 

I dont like that if you smoke 10 joints is the same if you smoke 1... no multiplied effect

Ascetic colonists get no mood debuff for eating raw meat or vegetables so they just go for it. As for berries, they're popular with colonists who need a Joy boost

Quote from: Miky2911 on August 21, 2016, 08:38:59 AM
I dont like that if you smoke 10 joints is the same if you smoke 1... no multiplied effect

You don't necessarily get multiplied positive effects if you take more than one dose in real life either; same goes for other drugs, which will rather just increase the negatives and risk of overdose. Welcome to the forums btw. :3

-----------------------

Tynan, found a sentence that might need to be reworked, for the Ninja Assassin background it says: "Her was often sent complete the most complex of missions" and would probably sound better if changed to: "She was often sent to complete the most complex missions"

Alright, now that the economy looks more balanced, turning my eye towards the research costs...

I think drugs require too much research.

The Drug Production prerequisite costs 1700 research and doesn't let you actually make any drugs; that requires further research.

Researching Drug Production & all its drugs requires 5100 research total. Compare this to researching everything necessary for Deep Drilling (3100) or Machining (2200). It's over twice as difficult to research drugs as it is to research assault rifles.

just lost one pawn because he left my home area (he was restricted, binging on yayo) when there are like 10 manhunter wargs wandering at my doors ... this behavior is WAD?

Unfortunately the new update will not save my previous A15 colony so I don't expect I'll get any further on it. However I do have my feedback from playing, for what it is worth. I was trying to focus on a drug producing colony, for the video, which means I didn't quite play with my usual priorities. 

I love the changes in trading. Having more traders buy everyday items like clothing really helps and will prevent me from having giant piles of clothes waiting for a fine good trader. Also seeing the "this trader won't buy this" message is probably helpful for new players. 

I love the detailed need and health feedback from the drug affects. I never really got into alcohol - not sure if I ever built a brewery - but I feel like these extra details are new. They definitely help. 

Would be nice to be able to assign pawns to carry food in a way similar to assigning them to carry drugs. This is not unrelated, my joint-smoking pawns would often get halfway across the map then have to return for some munchies. 

I had one siege come through and the enemies attacked pointless hills far from my base. They poked around trying to attack this hill despite being able to walk around it. I brought out my snipers and got their attention and they quickly reorganized for a traditional firefight. 

Drug research is very expensive. I didn't get a chance to deal with addicition so much but I did have a few colonists join with previous addictions. My alcoholic was one of the the initial colonists and he overcame his addiction without really any problems. Somehow a colonist developed an amphetamine addiction - surely a raider dropped some? - and I didn't run into any particular issues with him either. I hate to suggest that there be additional reasons for my colonists go into rages or dazes... 

On a similar note, I love that joints in particular are very effective at battling the mood spiral. The new drug regime system looks like it will be really effective. It was great to set it up to where at 50% mood they'll smoke a joint and get a nice +20 mood boost with acceptable losses in skills.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Still making adjustments over here.

I've uploaded a quick fix that should solve some savegame incompatibility issues.

EDIT: Some saves will still be unloadable for now.

Quote from: Tynan on August 21, 2016, 02:12:21 PM
I've uploaded a quick fix that should solve some savegame incompatibility issues.

No actual gameplay changes in that hotfix, correct?

Not sure if intentional or not, but, now when I get the zzzrt event I lose all my battery power too - even when they are not connected to the power cable

I don't know if it's just my luck running out but raiders seems incredibly op. I was playing on rough  (multiple colonies) and I've had raiders with a shooting skill of 2-5 with pistols and /or shotguns of poor and shoddy quality land every single shot (medium distance) on my colonists while my colonists with high shooting skills just kept missing them over and over again. I had to resort to meleeing the raiders because shooting just didn't work and even then they kept firing away and hitting every shot.

Played some A15. Do not like how those drug policies work.

If I set some pawns to "no drugs" policy they should not do drugs (unless I change policy or give manual order). It is super frustrating when I want them to not take drugs and they do it anyway.

Quote from: Mihsan on August 21, 2016, 02:59:30 PM
Played some A15. Do not like how those drug policies work.

If I set some pawns to "no drugs" policy they should not do drugs (unless I change policy or give manual order). It is super frustrating when I want them to not take drugs and they do it anyway.

You're looking at them as robots over whom you should have 100% control, or as RTS units from StarCraft. They're really not. They'll also insult people when you don't want, go on mental breaks, etc etc. If they were robots this game would be a lot more boring. There's not a lot of room for characterization in a robot.

Got this keep popping up on a Rhino manhunter pack.

[attachment deleted by admin - too old]

Quote from: FGsquared on August 21, 2016, 02:50:06 PM
I don't know if it's just my luck running out but raiders seems incredibly op. I was playing on rough  (multiple colonies) and I've had raiders with a shooting skill of 2-5 with pistols and /or shotguns of poor and shoddy quality land every single shot (medium distance) on my colonists while my colonists with high shooting skills just kept missing them over and over again. I had to resort to meleeing the raiders because shooting just didn't work and even then they kept firing away and hitting every shot.

Yeah they seem way meaner, by raid 2 I am see at least one grenade every single raid by pirates. It's getting really tough even with only 2 raiders I am not use to nades that early on, they are sapping more as well so I end up fighting indoors where that grenade is just devastating since everything is wood, had a couple runs right off that bat I had to quit because the 2nd raiders killed 3/4 of my colonists while trying to secure my dining room which they destroyed. I mean all for a challenge but I am use to the first raiders being bows and arrows, and pirates showing up with pistols and shivs, now its pistols and grenades every single raid. And I was on casual difficulty.

Quote from: Tynan on August 21, 2016, 03:06:46 PM

Quote from: Mihsan on August 21, 2016, 02:59:30 PM
Played some A15. Do not like how those drug policies work.

If I set some pawns to "no drugs" policy they should not do drugs (unless I change policy or give manual order). It is super frustrating when I want them to not take drugs and they do it anyway.

You're looking at them as robots over whom you should have 100% control, or as RTS units from StarCraft. They're really not. They'll also insult people when you don't want, go on mental breaks, etc etc. If they were robots this game would be a lot more boring. There's not a lot of room for characterization in a robot.

I agree with what you are saying, but is there a way we can police our colonies? For example, can we destroy drugs in the incinerator? I know we can sell them to traders. Anyway I am concerned that having some sort of drug stockpile - say loot from raiders - will endanger my colonists if I keep it around even forbidden. I'd like to be able to destroy any drugs I don't want my colonists near. Since they don't deteriorate (well the ones I researched before my save crash) it's not like I can leave them out in the rain or whatever. Perhaps there could be some social conflict when an addict/chemical fascinate sees another pawn throwing drugs in the incinerator.

Tynan: What storyteller/difficulty do you want us testing this stuff out on? I'm going with Phoebe Rough for now.

Quote from: pdxsean on August 21, 2016, 03:38:44 PM

Quote from: Tynan on August 21, 2016, 03:06:46 PM

Quote from: Mihsan on August 21, 2016, 02:59:30 PM
Played some A15. Do not like how those drug policies work.

If I set some pawns to "no drugs" policy they should not do drugs (unless I change policy or give manual order). It is super frustrating when I want them to not take drugs and they do it anyway.

You're looking at them as robots over whom you should have 100% control, or as RTS units from StarCraft. They're really not. They'll also insult people when you don't want, go on mental breaks, etc etc. If they were robots this game would be a lot more boring. There's not a lot of room for characterization in a robot.

I am concerned that having some sort of drug stockpile - say loot from raiders - will endanger my colonists if I keep it around even forbidden.

This is actually an entirely intentional mechanic that I'm balancing around. It is the downside that balances out the profits of running a drug trading operation. Having drugs all around runs the risk that someone is going to use them.

That said, I agree a way to destroy them would be good. Thanks for the suggestion.

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 21, 2016, 03:39:14 PM
Tynan: What storyteller/difficulty do you want us testing this stuff out on? I'm going with Phoebe Rough for now.

Whatever you want. I want info from all levels. Certainly I don't want to leave a bunch of settings untested!

Quote from: pdxsean on August 21, 2016, 03:38:44 PM
I agree with what you are saying, but is there a way we can police our colonies? For example, can we destroy drugs in the incinerator? I know we can sell them to traders. Anyway I am concerned that having some sort of drug stockpile - say loot from raiders - will endanger my colonists if I keep it around even forbidden. I'd like to be able to destroy any drugs I don't want my colonists near. Since they don't deteriorate (well the ones I researched before my save crash) it's not like I can leave them out in the rain or whatever. Perhaps there could be some social conflict when an addict/chemical fascinate sees another pawn throwing drugs in the incinerator.

Just forbid the door leading to the drug room.

Quote from: Tynan on August 21, 2016, 03:42:15 PM

Quote from: pdxsean on August 21, 2016, 03:38:44 PM

I am concerned that having some sort of drug stockpile - say loot from raiders - will endanger my colonists if I keep it around even forbidden.

This is actually an entirely intentional mechanic that I'm balancing around. It is the downside that balances out the profits of running a drug trading operation. Having drugs all around runs the risk that someone is going to use them.

That said, I agree a way to destroy them would be good. Thanks for the suggestion.

Definitely. I think it's a great idea to have the dangers you've associated, but having some modest form of control would help, otherwise I see every colony spiraling into addiction and chaos with random raiders dropping drugs when they die. As it is, I'll have to add chemical fascination to my list of major negative traits when I am considering capturing.

Quote from: Fleurs on August 21, 2016, 03:46:06 PM
Just forbid the door leading to the drug room.

Yeah that is a good defense against the chemically fascinated but from my experience pawns in rages and binges will ignore forbidden doors. These are the pawns I am particularly worried about. Also it would be pretty fiddly to have to approve/deapprove the door every time new drugs came in. But yeah until Tynan tinkers with it that's pretty much my plan.

Noticed the drug production research dropped down to 700 from i believe 1700. That makes it a lot more practical to research, especially for tribals. Thank you for that.
Before I couldn't prioritize drugs over machining and the like. Drugs>Violence

And having a way to destroy drugs would be great, that pile of flake is just waiting for someone to binge on it and it scares me...

I think the addiction rate for joints (.1%) is too low. At that rate, it would take an average of 5-10 growing seasons, smoking all the joints produced, to get anyone dependent on marijuana. Arguments about real-life addiction rates aside, it seems too rare to be a real downside. I would suggest raising it to .5% or 1%.

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 21, 2016, 03:55:49 PM
I think the addiction rate for joints (.1%) is too low. At that rate, it would take an average of 5-10 growing seasons, smoking all the joints produced, to get anyone dependent on marijuana. Arguments about real-life addiction rates aside, it seems too rare to be a real downside. I would suggest raising it to .5% or 1%.

Probably right, it's a bit OP.

Heh, walked away from my desk for a bit, came back to a new version and a new bug. Got the below on autosave.

Exception while saving map: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
  at RimWorld.TaleData_Def.ExposeData () [0x0000b] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\RimWorld\Tales\TaleDatas\TaleData_Def.cs:21
  at Verse.Scribe_Deep.LookDeep[TaleData_Def] (RimWorld.TaleData_Def& target, Boolean saveDestroyedThings, System.String label, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x0015a] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Deep.cs:58
  at Verse.Scribe_Deep.LookDeep[TaleData_Def] (RimWorld.TaleData_Def& target, System.String label, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x00000] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Deep.cs:14
  at RimWorld.Tale_SinglePawnAndDef.ExposeData () [0x00006] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\RimWorld\Tales\Tales\Tale_SinglePawnAndDef.cs:25
  at Verse.Scribe_Deep.LookDeep[Tale] (RimWorld.Tale& target, Boolean saveDestroyedThings, System.String label, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x0015a] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Deep.cs:58
  at Verse.Scribe_Collections.LookList[Tale] (System.Collections.Generic.List`1& list, Boolean saveDestroyedThings, System.String label, LookMode lookMode, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x001ca] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Collections.cs:71
  at Verse.Scribe_Collections.LookList[Tale] (System.Collections.Generic.List`1& list, System.String label, LookMode lookMode, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x00000] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Collections.cs:13
  at RimWorld.TaleManager.ExposeData () [0x00000] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\RimWorld\Tales\TaleManager.cs:24
  at Verse.Scribe_Deep.LookDeep[TaleManager] (RimWorld.TaleManager& target, Boolean saveDestroyedThings, System.String label, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x0015a] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Deep.cs:58
  at Verse.Scribe_Deep.LookDeep[TaleManager] (RimWorld.TaleManager& target, System.String label, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x00000] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Deep.cs:14
  at Verse.Game.ExposeSmallComponents () [0x000f2] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Game\Game.cs:101
  at Verse.Game.ExposeData () [0x00016] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Game\Game.cs:83
  at Verse.Scribe_Deep.LookDeep[Game] (Verse.Game& target, Boolean saveDestroyedThings, System.String label, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x0015a] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Deep.cs:58
  at Verse.Scribe_Deep.LookDeep[Game] (Verse.Game& target, System.String label, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x00000] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Deep.cs:14
  at Verse.GameDataSaveLoader.<SaveGame>m__895 () [0x0000b] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Utility\SaveLoad\GameDataSaveLoader.cs:145
  at Verse.SafeSaver.DoSave (System.String fullPath, System.String documentElementName, System.Action saveAction) [0x00007] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Utility\SaveLoad\SafeSaver.cs:95

Quote from: Tel on August 21, 2016, 04:17:27 PM
Heh, walked away from my desk for a bit, came back to a new version and a new bug. Got the below on autosave.

Exception while saving map: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
  at RimWorld.TaleData_Def.ExposeData () [0x0000b] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\RimWorld\Tales\TaleDatas\TaleData_Def.cs:21
  at Verse.Scribe_Deep.LookDeep[TaleData_Def] (RimWorld.TaleData_Def& target, Boolean saveDestroyedThings, System.String label, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x0015a] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Deep.cs:58
  at Verse.Scribe_Deep.LookDeep[TaleData_Def] (RimWorld.TaleData_Def& target, System.String label, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x00000] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Deep.cs:14
  at RimWorld.Tale_SinglePawnAndDef.ExposeData () [0x00006] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\RimWorld\Tales\Tales\Tale_SinglePawnAndDef.cs:25
  at Verse.Scribe_Deep.LookDeep[Tale] (RimWorld.Tale& target, Boolean saveDestroyedThings, System.String label, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x0015a] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Deep.cs:58
  at Verse.Scribe_Collections.LookList[Tale] (System.Collections.Generic.List`1& list, Boolean saveDestroyedThings, System.String label, LookMode lookMode, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x001ca] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Collections.cs:71
  at Verse.Scribe_Collections.LookList[Tale] (System.Collections.Generic.List`1& list, System.String label, LookMode lookMode, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x00000] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Collections.cs:13
  at RimWorld.TaleManager.ExposeData () [0x00000] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\RimWorld\Tales\TaleManager.cs:24
  at Verse.Scribe_Deep.LookDeep[TaleManager] (RimWorld.TaleManager& target, Boolean saveDestroyedThings, System.String label, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x0015a] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Deep.cs:58
  at Verse.Scribe_Deep.LookDeep[TaleManager] (RimWorld.TaleManager& target, System.String label, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x00000] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Deep.cs:14
  at Verse.Game.ExposeSmallComponents () [0x000f2] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Game\Game.cs:101
  at Verse.Game.ExposeData () [0x00016] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Game\Game.cs:83
  at Verse.Scribe_Deep.LookDeep[Game] (Verse.Game& target, Boolean saveDestroyedThings, System.String label, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x0015a] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Deep.cs:58
  at Verse.Scribe_Deep.LookDeep[Game] (Verse.Game& target, System.String label, System.Object[] ctorArgs) [0x00000] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Map\SaveLoad\Scribe\Scribe_Deep.cs:14
  at Verse.GameDataSaveLoader.<SaveGame>m__895 () [0x0000b] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Utility\SaveLoad\GameDataSaveLoader.cs:145
  at Verse.SafeSaver.DoSave (System.String fullPath, System.String documentElementName, System.Action saveAction) [0x00007] in C:\Dev\RimWorld\Assets\Scripts\Verse\Utility\SaveLoad\SafeSaver.cs:95

That's save incompatibility from the update.

Speaking of save incompatibility, do you want us to start a new colony each time a new version of the unstable build is released? Or are the gameplay changes minor enough we should be able to continue our previous colonies with no screwiness?

The trap change is a step in the right direction, and I can see good reasons as to why this mechanic should be kept.

However... I very much dislike things that encourage the player to learn how to exploit the AI. Meaning, right now, savvy players are constructing their bases in such a way that the player's pawn AI will always avoid said traps while enemies will still walk into them.

I think friendly trap triggering should be gotten rid of entirely, and simply replaced with a movespeed debuff for when friendly pawns are traveling over the trap. A SIGNIFICANT one, like slower than traveling over rocks.

Quote from: Adventurer on August 21, 2016, 04:39:55 PM
The trap change is a step in the right direction, and I can see good reasons as to why this mechanic should be kept.

However... I very much dislike things that encourage the player to learn how to exploit the AI. Meaning, right now, savvy players are constructing their bases in such a way that the player's pawn AI will always avoid said traps while enemies will still walk into them.

I think friendly trap triggering should be gotten rid of entirely, and simply replaced with a movespeed debuff for when friendly pawns are traveling over the trap. A SIGNIFICANT one, like slower than traveling over rocks.

Agreed, with the caveat that colonists can trigger them if they're wandering around in a daze or inebriated. However, that would require some additions to how you can handle mental breaks.

Also, couldn't players always exploit the AI like that just by being very finicky with their "Allowed Areas" zones?

That's a good example of what I mean, Mike. Having traps work the way they do kind of encourages player to do stuff like that. I mean it is a completely legitimate tactic, sure, but I think the simpler, more intuitive solution is best.

Quote from: Tynan on August 21, 2016, 03:06:46 PM

Quote from: Mihsan on August 21, 2016, 02:59:30 PM
Played some A15. Do not like how those drug policies work.

If I set some pawns to "no drugs" policy they should not do drugs (unless I change policy or give manual order). It is super frustrating when I want them to not take drugs and they do it anyway.

You're looking at them as robots over whom you should have 100% control, or as RTS units from StarCraft. They're really not. They'll also insult people when you don't want, go on mental breaks, etc etc. If they were robots this game would be a lot more boring. There's not a lot of room for characterization in a robot.

I really cant aggree with that. For me it is a design problem: there is whole "drug policy" system, which does nothing. Why there is whole "take X joints per day if mood is below Y" thing if my pawns will take all the joints they want whenever they want? Why my colonist will strictly obey work sheet (cleaning only after hauling), but drug policy is just a recommendation, not the law? Why I cant play "we are making and selling drugs, not using them"? Really cant see logic in that.

This problem also adds too much unwanted micromanagement for me (forbiding all the drugs on map, giving drugs to specific colonists... which in fact turns me into surrogate drug policy). Micromanagement that can be removed with drug policy working better.

About "there's not a lot of room for characterization in a robot": there is already drug binges in the game (which will already ignore drug policy and happen very often) that give enough character play. On that background all pawns snorting/smoking/drinking whatever they want all the time looks like overkill. Too much characterization that gives opposite result and turns my pawns into blank snorting/smoking/drinking grey mass without any character.

P.S.:
- Deffault drug policy should be "take whatever you want"
- There should be policy "stay clean" (possible forbiden to chemical fascinated colonists... or giving them mood debuff if they cant take drugs)

Drug policy is the law. They will take the drugs you assign.

Drug policy has nothing to do with telling pawns what drugs *not* to take. It's in the Assign tab, not the Restrict tab :)

As for your micro techniques, they're pointless. Pawns will only take addictive joy drugs if they're chemical interest or binging or addicted. Normal colonists won't just start smoking flake randomly.

"Stay clean" is the default directive for pawns but depending on who they are they won't be willing, or won't have the willpower to do it. You can't just tell an addict to stop taking and expect him to comply.

This is a major interesting facet of drugs, which is that they can be profitable but having them around can end you up with addicted colonists. It's an intentionally designed risk/reward calculation which distinguishes the drugs from just growing cotton and selling shirts, or every other industry in the game.

I have considered adding some sort of state they can go into where they try to kick a habit, but that's not designed yet. Considering it for future alphas. But no, I don't imagine you'll ever be able to simply instruct an addict to stop using and expect it to happen.

Maybe you could instruct non-chemical interest, non-addicted pawns to never touch some drugs, but they could still go on binges. I'll think about it.

edit: I'll also have to review the AI here, there might be a bug or two that's making them take drugs when they shouldn't...

This thread isn't for open-ended suggestions, it's for A15 feedback only, thanks. Some posts were removed.

I had a situation when my hunter (which is not chemical fascinated) was high on marryjay (which I was not expected at all because I did not understand how drug policy work) accidantly shot one muffalo and could not run away from his friends because he was high.

Next time I had tribal attack. Defeated it pretty easy, but when tribals started to run I had a problem chasing one old bad back granny because most of my (not chemical fascinated) colonists was high (which again I was not expecting).

Now I understand how drug policy work. And from that understanding comes my discontent. It is really not what I was expecting from it and it's useless. I was expecting from it to give me tools to ration drugs between my colonists. Instead it's just total chaos with all taking anything. Really dissapointed.

There is a bug, I just discovered, which means random colonists will take any drugs just to fill their joy need.

I think I'll probably also add a restriction which allows the player to turn this on and off for different drugs.

People on binges will still take drugs off-schedule of course. Addicts too - maybe.

I appreciate the feedback, it does help me find these breakage cases.

I am also going to add a way to burn drugs.

Not sure if these have been mentioned yet but I'm having some major issues with mental breaks and addictions/drug binges.

I've got two pawns that keep having mental breaks (sad wander) despite not being particularly stressed burdened. They'll literally snap out of one break and go straight into the next, the stacking of Catharsis in addition to the bonus from a party doesn't seem to help at all. This might be related to their addictions/withdrawal symptoms as both pawns are addicted to Cocaine or Alcohol, but they've never used those and I've not even seen any on the map yet.

(http://i.imgur.com/rfcgP7g.png)

Also I have one guy constantly going on Luciferium binges despite me not actually having any Luciferium at all. I haven't even had a chance to start making drugs or beer yet.

Quote from: Tynan on August 21, 2016, 05:40:14 PM
There is a bug, I just discovered, which means random colonists will take any drugs just to fill their joy need.

I think I'll probably also add a restriction which allows the player to turn this on and off for different drugs.

People on binges will still take drugs off-schedule of course. Addicts too - maybe.

I appreciate the feedback, it does help me find these breakage cases.

I am also going to add a way to burn drugs.

Oh, now it kinda makes sense. My colonists could use marryjay to refill joy and what you say sounds great. Thanks, Tynan!

Quote from: AWildman on August 21, 2016, 05:53:10 PM
Not sure if these have been mentioned yet but I'm having some major issues with mental breaks and addictions/drug binges.

I've got two pawns that keep having mental breaks (sad wander) despite not being particularly stressed burdened. They'll literally snap out of one break and go straight into the next, the stacking of Catharsis in addition to the bonus from a party doesn't seem to help at all. This might be related to their addictions/withdrawal symptoms as both pawns are addicted to Cocaine or Alcohol, but they've never used those and I've not even seen any on the map yet.

Also I have one guy constantly going on Luciferium binges despite me not actually having any Luciferium at all. I haven't even had a chance to start making drugs or beer yet.

The binge thing is a bit weird, I'll have to look at it.

Luciferium thing is fixed, please update.

I'm pushing another update now. Give me 30 mins.

First off thanks for the great new set of features, I have been having a lot of fun trying out the new drug system, so far I have not touched the mining stuff yet, but here's my feedback so far. Bit of a warning as it may focus on the negatives, with love. Telling you my problem is better than giving you a solution you didn't ask for amiright ;)

For the opening tutorial: it felt good overall, my only comment is that there should be some mention, upon world generation, of what the purpose of map size is ie: 200 x 150 vs 400 x 300 simply meaning more map variety, having no game play impact- seems to be a very common newbie question.

Grow speed and effort:
The increased work to sow fields and allow them to grow feels more appropriate given how much of a gain growing has always been, especially now with drugs added. The added grow time makes up for the increased work load so you're not spending more time harvesting than growing, which definitely feels better than before where you were practically racing your crops to get them harvested and hauled.

Beer:
The new fermentation process is really cool as it feels somehow more rewarding to wait for your wort to ferment, without being much more work overall. The Fermenting Barrel is absolutely beautiful, i can tell you spent time on making it graphically intuitive. Seriously its amazing man, this is the level of detail I love about this game.

A few criticisms now-Perhaps it's worth mentioning somewhere that they need to be refrigerated as this may not be obvious to non-brewer types, unless you want alot of angry people to ruin their first batch, that's ok if so lol ;)

One main thing with that though is that I was unable to simply empty the barrels when the ruined wort was in there so I had to deconstruct then re-construct, was pretty sad to lose not only the hops but all the steel/wood.

Beer feels great now, but with that said I really have no clue where it's intended to fit into the joy meta, at least compared to Joints. PRE-POST EDIT-After doing some basic comparisons it feels like beer is in the right place, being a more addictive and productive mood booster, with Cannabis being the easier/cheaper version that costs move speed and consciousness.

Drugs:
The drug progression research has been scaled down and it feels good where it's at now I think. The actual "tech progression" of which drug does what could be a bit more clear, for example Flake's description might fit better as Yayo's current description.

-Flake states a "short but powerful euphoric state" but would be more accurate as "reducing the user's need for rest, and suppresses pain" Yayo's description should mention it is a less addictive and more "expensive" alternative that adds a speed boost as well. Also as of now there are no mouse-over descriptions of the "pain" "rest" and "tiredness" in the stats for drugs, the later two of which are a bit confusing/mistakable. Beer's stats also don't seem to be updated to a similar format as the new drugs, which makes comparing their effects quite difficult.

Stack size?!
Why can i stack 300+ joints on one tile? it seems unreasonable for drugs to stack any higher than beer does. If/when damage occurs on that one tile i'm gonna lose ALOT of manhours/resources, which may be intentional, like gold/silver but just seems a bit odd to stack 100 yayo when a large colony might only use 20/30 a day.

Quote from: Tynan on August 21, 2016, 05:07:42 PM
Drug policy has nothing to do with telling pawns what drugs *not* to take. It's in the Assign tab, not the Restrict tab :)

I can understand that fitting into the big picture, but let's be honest, you go into the drug policy menu and see the option "no drugs" and it's blank. So it feels like it SHOULD prevent pawns from using at all. Perhaps just rename it to "No Policy" or something to clarify the difference.

Now for some bugs!
I haven't had the time to get acquainted with debug mode so I haven't tested much at all but here's my observations as-is:
Pet zoning/hunting bug
step 1 pet is trained by a hunter.
2 pet is assigned a zone away from the hunting area.
3 hunter hunts.
4 hunter either finished prematurely, or is interrupted, not exactly sure here.
5 pets assigned to hunter will be stuck "wandering" wherever they were when the hunter finished/was interrupted
6 only way to unstuck them is to draft the hunter/trainer and move him to the allowed zone so they either follow there or just reset their pathfinding to that location
7 in A14 pets would just go between where the hunter was hunting and their zone seamlessly

Second issue, not sure if this is a bug or what.
I use windowed borderless mode via the shortcut trick on one monitor and browser/etc on the other screen. When i move my mouse on my second monitor the little bottom left area of the gamescreen where it says the items/terrain/light etc will actively change as if my mouse were moving across the game screen, but it's on the other monitor, alt tabbed.
it's only a minor gripe, one I can live with but I thought i'd mention it as it's been bugging me and it never happened in A14

I feel like I've only scratched the surface of the drug system but overall it feels like a nice addition that will add flavour for alot of people. Hopefully I can spend some more time writing out some feedback later this week.

Cheers, PK

...Wait, you need to refrigerate beer while it's fermenting? I set up mine in my kitchen and it seemed to be fine.

Also, I agree with the default Drug assignment name from "No Drugs" to "No Policy". Less confusion that way.

Also, will animals/hunting be modified next patch to make up for the increase growing difficulty? I was having some issues getting enough food in a jungle colony to start.

AWildMan - that sounds like broken behavior. They can go on binges from an addiction, I think but only for the drug they're addicted to - not sad wander. If you could post your log file that'd be very useful!

Thank you a ton PrettyKrazy for the feedback! This sort of thing is very useful and I appreciate the effort.

Here's my current plan for the drug policy redesign which will allow you to turn various drugs on and off for joy purposes.

---

Refactor drug policies:
Every drug gets a record.
The left is a group of radio buttons for "usage" with these options: Deny, Joy only, Addict use, Scheduled
If scheduled is active, the current controls appear.
JoyGiver_SocialRelax: Generalize it to use any kind of 'joy use' allowed drug.

There seems to be a bug where a colonist dies. The weird part is that it's not a colonist that you have. I just have some colonist called Eriksen die of a heart-attack. I never had said colonist. Same thing happened in the game before this one, also with a colonist that I had never heard of. Each time, the arrow points to the bottom left of the map. If I load the most recent save, it does not happen again.

It doesn't affect the gameplay much, but it does add a +1 dead colonist to the statistics.

I'm having a bug(?) in this new save where my menus say I have 1184 raw resources, but individual resources only add up to 666. It's been a very weird game; I swear I started with less wood & components than usual, too.

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 21, 2016, 11:12:31 PM
I'm having a bug(?) in this new save where my menus say I have 1184 raw resources, but individual resources only add up to 666. It's been a very weird game; I swear I started with less wood & components than usual, too.

Any chance you could post that savegame? Zip it to make the file small.

Here you go:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v9sz65piw1hv3jc/Lutin03.zip?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/v9sz65piw1hv3jc/Lutin03.zip?dl=0)
(Had to put it on a 3rd-party site because the ZIP size is 700kb and the forums only allow 600kb files.)

I've also been archiving my entire time playing that colony on Twitch. It starts on this video:
https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/v/84892116 (https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/v/84892116)

And goes up through every video after that. I noticed this bug during this video:
https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/v/84947850 (https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/v/84947850)
at around the 1:30:00 mark.

Hope that helps.

i find it odd that neolithic coolers need research, while freezers DONT. heaters I understand, since heaters are pretty much just coils heated up with electricity, but coolers are a bit much, when the neolithic one needs research.

By the way, any details on this cooling device in real life, if it actually exists?

Quote from: mumblemumble on August 22, 2016, 12:43:42 AM
i find it odd that neolithic coolers need research, while freezers DONT. heaters I understand, since heaters are pretty much just coils heated up with electricity, but coolers are a bit much, when the neolithic one needs research.

By the way, any details on this cooling device in real life, if it actually exists?

From the wikipedia article: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporative_cooler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporative_cooler))
"Before the advent of refrigeration, evaporative cooling was used for millennia. A porous earthenware vessel would cool water by evaporation through its walls; frescoes from about 2500 BC show slaves fanning jars of water to cool rooms. A vessel could also be placed in a bowl of water, covered with a wet cloth dipping into the water, to keep milk or butter as fresh as possible."

Skimming through the article, such evaporative coolers were heavily used by ancient Egyptians and Persians, so tribalists knowing how to make one is feasible.

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 21, 2016, 09:39:56 PM
...Wait, you need to refrigerate beer while it's fermenting? I set up mine in my kitchen and it seemed to be fine.

You don't need to refrigerate it but there is a temperature which results in 'spoiled by high temperature' for you fermentation barrels. It seems to be about 30°C from crude testing. It would be nice if this was stated in the information tab for the fermentation barrels.

Edit: there's also a 'spoilt by freezing' and an 'non-ideal temperature' that prolongs fermentation, somewhere around 0-7°C.

Quote from: CheeseGromit on August 22, 2016, 01:41:59 AM

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 21, 2016, 09:39:56 PM
...Wait, you need to refrigerate beer while it's fermenting? I set up mine in my kitchen and it seemed to be fine.

You don't need to refrigerate it but there is a temperature which results in 'spoiled by high temperature' for you fermentation barrels. It seems to be about 30°C from crude testing. It would be nice if this was stated in the information tab for the fermentation barrels.

Good thought.

Another bug: http://imgur.com/a/pyHqE

In the last two games I have started, I have had one faction that I cannot do anything with. They are -77, but still considered neutral. I have no options other than to disconnect, and they never visit. Playing on a super-cold map, if that makes any difference.

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 22, 2016, 02:19:07 AM
Another bug: http://imgur.com/a/pyHqE

In the last two games I have started, I have had one faction that I cannot do anything with. They are -77, but still considered neutral. I have no options other than to disconnect, and they never visit. Playing on a super-cold map, if that makes any difference.

Looks buggy, could you post a save game?

Quote from: Tynan on August 22, 2016, 02:23:51 AM

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 22, 2016, 02:19:07 AM
Another bug: http://imgur.com/a/pyHqE

In the last two games I have started, I have had one faction that I cannot do anything with. They are -77, but still considered neutral. I have no options other than to disconnect, and they never visit. Playing on a super-cold map, if that makes any difference.

Looks buggy, could you post a save game?

Very odd. I tried a few more times, so I wouldn't have to send you a huge save-file - all of those seem to be functioning perfectly, with the numbers randomised as is normal. I guess I just managed to get very (un)lucky and get the same -77 two times in a row. Couldn't recreate the bug, and I already used dev-mode to get them hostile on the main save. Weird though, that they were that low, and still not hostile.  Wish I could provide more details.

Another entry in the videos: https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/v/85019704 (https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/v/85019704)

Several things of note here:

• My base is tucked away in the NE corner of the map. Raiders attacked me from the SW. When the survivors fled, they fled to the North... right into my guns.
• Two colonists become a couple on the battlefield.
• The audio glitches out and the game goes completely silent, aside from occasional popping whenever I do something. This happened once to me before, but this is the first time I caught it on video; last time it was after a 4-hour marathon session. I fix it by restarting the game.
  

All of this happens around the 1:08:30 mark.

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 22, 2016, 03:27:11 AM
Another entry in the videos: https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/v/85019704 (https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/v/85019704)

Several things of note here:

• My base is tucked away in the NE corner of the map. Raiders attacked me from the SW. When the survivors fled, they fled to the North... right into my guns.
• Two colonists become a couple on the battlefield.
• The audio glitches out and the game goes completely silent, aside from occasional popping whenever I do something. This happened once to me before, but this is the first time I caught it on video; last time it was after a 4-hour marathon session. I fix it by restarting the game.
  

All of this happens around the 1:08:30 mark.

I've had that audio issue too in, in previous versions of the game. Pretty sure it's been there for a while, but like you said, it's during marathon sessions, and it's not a common occurrence.

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 22, 2016, 04:22:30 AMI've had that audio issue too in, in previous versions of the game. Pretty sure it's been there for a while, but like you said, it's during marathon sessions, and it's not a common occurrence.

This one happened after just an hour of play, though. Hardly a marathon.

It's pretty random when it happens to me. It's only happened once since I got it on Steam though. 1 time in 157 hours isn't terrible.

Not sure the tutor really makes clear how to differentiate the things that can deteriorate outside or not. Seems like every youtuber who is new to the game fills their freezer full of steel, components, rock blocks, all kinds of things that could easily be outside.

Perhaps some sort of tag in the item's basic info pane (meaning before hitting the 'i' for extra detailed info) that states whether or not something can deteriorate. That really doesn't sound perfect, maybe just directions to look for the deteriorate stat in the info details?

edit: OH, and something that lets players know that apparel quality does not matter to the pawns like the hit points do. A lot players seem to see apparel debuffs and then look at the pawns wearing something awful, and assume that is the problem. Even though that item may by 80 or 90% of HP still, while they have some excellent item at 12% that is the real problem.

And to expound on the quality rating, perhaps something to show the scale order (awful, shoddy, poor, etc.)

Quote from: BlackSmokeDMax on August 22, 2016, 04:48:21 AM
Not sure the tutor really makes clear how to differentiate the things that can deteriorate outside or not. Seems like every youtuber who is new to the game fills their freezer full of steel, components, rock blocks, all kinds of things that could easily be outside.

Perhaps some sort of tag in the item's basic info pane (meaning before hitting the 'i' for extra detailed info) that states whether or not something can deteriorate. That really doesn't sound perfect, maybe just directions to look for the deteriorate stat in the info details?

I figured that out pretty quickly: anything with Hit Points (except for structure & furniture) deteriorates outside. To be safe, nearly all your stockpiles should be under a roof. The more obscure thing is what stuff needs to be refrigerated, but that's easily figured out by looking at the "Stays fresh for X days" tooltip.

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 22, 2016, 04:51:56 AM

Quote from: BlackSmokeDMax on August 22, 2016, 04:48:21 AM
Not sure the tutor really makes clear how to differentiate the things that can deteriorate outside or not. Seems like every youtuber who is new to the game fills their freezer full of steel, components, rock blocks, all kinds of things that could easily be outside.

Perhaps some sort of tag in the item's basic info pane (meaning before hitting the 'i' for extra detailed info) that states whether or not something can deteriorate. That really doesn't sound perfect, maybe just directions to look for the deteriorate stat in the info details?

I figured that out pretty quickly: anything with Hit Points (except for structure & furniture) deteriorates outside. To be safe, nearly all your stockpiles should be under a roof. The more obscure thing is what stuff needs to be refrigerated, but that's easily figured out by looking at the "Stays fresh for X days" tooltip.

Not exactly true. Components have HP and don't deteriorate, same with leathers. May be others as well.

Agreed with the refrigerated items though.

Quote from: Tynan on August 21, 2016, 10:16:24 PM
Refactor drug policies:
Every drug gets a record.
The left is a group of radio buttons for "usage" with these options: Deny, Joy only, Addict use, Scheduled
If scheduled is active, the current controls appear.
JoyGiver_SocialRelax: Generalize it to use any kind of 'joy use' allowed drug.

I hope that "usage" means you're sticking to your gun about chem interests and addicts being able to grab drugs as desired? That new layer of concern in regards to cleaning up the battlefield and getting stuff locked up before one of my more drug fascinated colonists start to dig through the corpses for loot is what made the system interesting and actually having an impact on the gameplay - even if you don't run a drug operation.

For those who want more control I much rather see a keycard door feature enabling more restricted areas instead of limiting the pawn behavior (where only colonists that you let pick up the keycards you produced being able to open those specific locked doors). That way these players won't need to lock and unlock doors manually all the time.

Hey Tynan. Thanks for making a game that have captured me completely. I absolutely love it.

You requested saves for capturing the release video. I've made a dusty little prairie town with a decent yoya and cannabis operation.

Take a look:
http://i.imgur.com/elbEIUD.jpg
https://mega.nz/#!7BgDHDQC

Edit: For the love of God, keep Vere away from the products.

(Apologies if I'm double-posting, but I couldn't find this when I searched.)

Just starting out my first A15 colony on the unstable branch. First thing I've noticed is that 'Teetotaler' pawns can have one, or even multiple, dependencies and/or addictions. I appreciate that cognitive dissonance is a very real psychological process (!), but it seems like there should be a very low likelihood of this happening. Perhaps there is, and I've just had some strange RNG!

(Cheers for continuing to support & develop such an awesome game!)

Yeah that audio pop issue has been around for a while. I don't even know how to start approaching it, though, considering how rare it is and how it obviously doesn't come from my gameplay code...

Thanks for the save Edixo but I already shot the video!

I don't think deterioration is urgent enough to put in the fixed tutorial. There's a lesson about it on the learning helper, though. You can't just try to pack everything into one mega-lesson. People have a limit to how much they can/want to retain at once so I've tried to design around that by spacing lessons out with the learning helper.

Quote from: Tynan on August 22, 2016, 01:02:35 PM
Yeah that audio pop issue has been around for a while. I don't even know how to start approaching it, though, considering how rare it is and how it obviously doesn't come from my gameplay code...

Thanks for the save Edixo but I already shot the video!

I don't think deterioration is urgent enough to put in the fixed tutorial. There's a lesson about it on the learning helper, though. You can't just try to pack everything into one mega-lesson. People have a limit to how much they can/want to retain at once so I've tried to design around that by spacing lessons out with the learning helper.

If deterioration is in there, then that is awesome. If people have the info at their fingertips, that should be good enough. If they don't want to bother reading some helpful info, that is a different issue :)

Quote from: Tynan on August 21, 2016, 03:06:46 PM

Quote from: Mihsan on August 21, 2016, 02:59:30 PM
Played some A15. Do not like how those drug policies work.

If I set some pawns to "no drugs" policy they should not do drugs (unless I change policy or give manual order). It is super frustrating when I want them to not take drugs and they do it anyway.

You're looking at them as robots over whom you should have 100% control, or as RTS units from StarCraft. They're really not. They'll also insult people when you don't want, go on mental breaks, etc etc. If they were robots this game would be a lot more boring. There's not a lot of room for characterization in a robot.

I know this has already been hashed out so I wont continue on with it, but I wanted to say thank you for this approach. Half the excitement from this game is the dramatic psychology of the colonists you have no control over.

Quote from: Tynan on August 22, 2016, 01:02:35 PM
Yeah that audio pop issue has been around for a while. I don't even know how to start approaching it, though, considering how rare it is and how it obviously doesn't come from my gameplay code...

If it helps, there's only one other game I've played that has a similar bug: Orcs Must Die Unchained. The really weird thing is, it doesn't happen in the game itself; it only happens in the launcher for the game.

It does mention you got cover the stock pile I think. It should show how to make a freezer maybe I had no clue as a newb I thought for the longest time you had to unlock it in the tech tree though cooler was just an ac unit like we got here in the desert and it wouldn't go that low. That was a big game changer when I sorted that out.

Also is the passive cooler suppose to be caped at 15c? I mean it works for heat waves but I was kind of hoping I could preserve meat with them I built like 9 of them in a cooler on tribal run to test it and it refused to got below 15c, just seems odd. A dehydrated store room would make he food last longer but this can't since it can't lower the room to at least refrigerated temp. I am still stuck not being able to chill meals in bulk till winter or I get electricity saddly. And that is my go to in the first season,  I love boran forest even as tribal so first goal is farm as much as I can before fall, second fill the pantry with meat, so I can stockpile hide for parkas and what not.

As tribal I went stone tech and clothing first to help me survive didn't know the passive cooler didn't work for storage at all pretty much useless for my fave biome lol. But it does have uses for other climates for sure.

For tribal food preservation, use pemmican.

For the Malari-block, could you include a description of malaria (and in which biomes people can get it) in the item description? I'm having trouble telling when, exactly, I want it and when it's useless.

I'm currently uploading a build with a reworked drug policy system that allows setting parameters for non-scheduled usage.

Current todo list:

---

Balance deep-mining economy. High-value things appear in giant lumps with absurd amounts of value easily extractable.
In the info tab or inspect pane for fermentation barrels, state the temperature limits.
Fix: my menus say I have 1184 raw resources, but individual resources only add up to 666
Test tolerance and make sure it actually builds up over time.
Test withdrawal timing. Give feedback on withdrawal progress.
Write an econ path analyzer and balance growable products profit rates.
Even ascetics should prefer meals a bit, for efficiency. Add a general optimalityOffset to IngestibleProperties.
Split drug binge into major and extreme: major is beer and joints, extreme is flake, yayo, etc.
Ensure prisoners can take drugs in their cells.
Fix: No ingest effects while relaxing socially.
Fix linux: Player.log is created only if you run the game from the console. If you run the game through steam then Player.log is missing.

Quote from: Tynan on August 22, 2016, 07:50:36 PM
I'm currently uploading a build with a reworked drug policy system that allows setting parameters for non-scheduled usage.

Nice. Should we make new colonies in this patch? Or keep running our old ones from the weekend build?

Quote from: Tynan on August 22, 2016, 07:50:36 PM
...
Test withdrawal timing. Give feedback on withdrawal progress.
Write an econ path analyzer and balance growable products profit rates.
Even ascetics should prefer meals a bit, for efficiency. Add a general optimalityOffset to IngestibleProperties.
Split drug binge into major and extreme: major is beer and joints, extreme is flake, yayo, etc.
...

So glad ascetics will prefer meals now. They ate so much of my raw crop.

I also approve of separating drug binges into major and extreme.

The econ path analyzer also sounds good. Not only am I wondering if cocaine products are too undervalued now, but the joint-value discussion has me pondering the going rate for meals. I never sold many meals because they were too useful, but they might be as easy to make as joints...

As for the withdrawal timing, I have some (recorded) feedback on that. (Video: https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/v/85130819 (https://www.twitch.tv/mikelemmer/v/85130819))

00:30ish: I buy 10 bottles of beer from a pirate merchant.
00:43:30: Redfields drinks his first bottle of beer, immediately gets addicted.
Once the 10 beers are gone, Redfields starts going into withdrawal, which includes 3 bouts of wandering sadly. This normally wouldn't be much of a problem, except...
01:56:50: ...he goes into a sad wander right as a raid hits, wandering along the outskirts of the battlefield. Luckily he isn't attacked, but I'm down 1 of my 3 gunners and one of them gets her hand chopped off as a result.
Redfields's "one bottle" withdrawal has lasted for 5-10 days now and shows no end in sight.

My opinion? This is rather ridiculous (although that might be what you're aiming for). The odds of a 1% addiction possibility activating on the first bottle are slim, but it happened to me. (Additional note: Are % chances screwed up? I swear 1% chances succeed on the first try way too often.) Just 10 bottles of beer have caused a colonist to go into heavy withdrawal for nearly an entire season. I have no indication of how close he is to breaking the withdrawal either, which is also vexing. (If there's tolerance and withdrawal values, would like to see them displayed for testing.)

It's unbalanced that there's a .1% chance of marijuana dependency, but a 1% chance of beer addiction. That needs some tuning, although the "addicted at first beer" could highlight a problem with the addiction chances itself: consuming 1 a day for 3 days in a row has the same chance of addiction as consuming 3 in one day.

Uhm, might have found another typo. In the "[Pawn] has developed an addiction to [Drug]." pop-up message, it said "[He/She] will automatically consume the drug to fulfil his need." Where "his" should probably be either replaced by a "[his/her]" or "this" as it sounds weird when it happens for female colonists.

Anyway, keep up the great work, having a lot of fun with this update. :3

Please, for the love of all that is good, make previous addictions(or at least usage) a requirement for binging on drugs during a mental break. Random invaders drop drugs, and even if you forbid them any colonist (other than teetotaler) can and will end up binging them when they get a mental break.

A binge should come from a desire, a desire for drugs should come after an addiction, or for persons with chemical interests. A regular joe ins't going to suddenly want to start a drug binge on a drug he has never used before just because he is a little upset.

I would like to give some feedback on Deep Mining.

Firstly: It seems to give out HUGE amounts of resources over a very small amount of time. I tapped my first vein, and ended up with thousands of gold in a few days, and I haven't even re-tapped the vein yet. This may be too much.

Secondly: I don't care for the split research between the deep scanner and the deep driller. Yes, you could theoretically stumble about popping drills down everywhere trying to find something. But practically, you can't use one without the other. It seems like you could make "deep drilling" give you the drill and a basic scanner, and then have "advanced deep scanner" research to let you see what the deposits are before tapping them.

Thirdly: The 3x3 square the drill mines out is very cumbersome. You only get those squares before you have to disassemble the drill to move it, and you have to give it power somehow. If you re-balance the veins to give out less resources, you should make it so that the drills are easier to move, or perhaps give them the ability to branch out over time (similar to the Moisture pump) in order get more of the resources.

Quote from: Leatherhead on August 22, 2016, 08:50:54 PM
Secondly: I don't care for the split research between the deep scanner and the deep driller. Yes, you could theoretically stumble about popping drills down everywhere trying to find something. But practically, you can't use one without the other. It seems like you could make "deep drilling" give you the drill and a basic scanner, and then have "advanced deep scanner" research to let you see what the deposits are before tapping them.

It might not make sense that they are split up in this patch, but I'm hoping this is the first step towards vehicles, where you'll be able to scan for oil deposits, allowing you to produce petrol or something. Or look for other underground features - meaning the drill won't be the only thing needing the scanner.

But wishful thinking aside, I think the scanner research should at least be a prerequisite for the drill research if they are to be separate.

Oh, and welcome to the forum. :3

Any way to use older savegames in the new update? I keep getting errors with the new drug system.

Permadeath mode not working as described.

"In permadeath mode, you get one save file and can ONLY SAVE when QUITTING the game. You cannot reload the game to fix mistakes, and when the colony dies, that's it."

Currently my game auto saves at most twice per game day while using Permadeath mode.

Lack of description on neolithic cooler. An explanation on what it is, and how it works would be nice, something about evaporative cooling

Not sure if mentioned, didn't read the whole thread. Wort does not seem to spoil even though it has a spoilage timer displayed. But I like the changes.

On an unrelated note, have you thought about reworking the growing system in the future? Currently I feel it is a bit simplistic as you can just grow an unlimited amount of any plants without needing seeds first. The grow skill limitation is a start I guess, but plants in general could have much more depth if they are harder to obtain. Maybe there should be a few types scattered around the map that you can harvest and recultivate, other types might be available by trading seeds/cuttings... At the moment I just plant a bit of rice for starting food and then tons of corn. Having different conditions might make that more interesting, especially as different plants might have different reproduction capabilites.

when enemy comto siege I capture their mortar and my colonist re install mortar i can build mortar no need to research at all by use copy button. and i still got random binge from drug like alcolhol but i dont even produce any beer yet how can they get binge

This is just a minor complaint: can't consume unprepared coca leaves.

Coca leaves can, and actually traditionally are, consumed without preparation.  The leaves when chewed, or brewed as a simple tea, are a mild non-addictive stimulant/hunger suppressant roughly similar to coffee. 

Tynan: How long is alcohol withdrawal supposed to last?

One of my starting colonists had an alcohol addiction. It's been 15 days without alcohol and she's showing no signs of recovery.

Alcohol withdrawal seems OP.

It's been 18 days since she's had a beer. She's still puking and wandering around in a sad daze. Stats say she's spent 2.5 days wandering sadly. At this point I don't want to make beer just to see how long her withdrawal lasts.

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 22, 2016, 09:56:22 PM
Any way to use older savegames in the new update? I keep getting errors with the new drug system.

You need to edit your saved game. Look for the assignedDrugDatabase tags, and replace that entire section with this:

<drugPolicyDatabase>
<policies>
<li>
<uniqueId>1</uniqueId>
<label>Social drugs</label>
<drugs>
<li>
<drug>Beer</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Joint</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Yayo</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Flake</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>GoJuice</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Amphetamine</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>MalariBlock</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Luciferium</drug>
</li>
</drugs>
</li>
<li>
<uniqueId>2</uniqueId>
<label>No drugs</label>
<drugs>
<li>
<drug>Beer</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Joint</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Yayo</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Flake</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>GoJuice</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Amphetamine</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>MalariBlock</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Luciferium</drug>
</li>
</drugs>
</li>
<li>
<uniqueId>3</uniqueId>
<label>Unrestricted</label>
<drugs>
<li>
<drug>Beer</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Joint</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Yayo</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Flake</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>GoJuice</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Amphetamine</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>MalariBlock</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Luciferium</drug>
</li>
</drugs>
</li>
<li>
<uniqueId>4</uniqueId>
<label>One drink per day</label>
<drugs>
<li>
<drug>Beer</drug>
<usage>Scheduled</usage>
<takeToInventory>1</takeToInventory>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Joint</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Yayo</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Flake</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>GoJuice</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Amphetamine</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>MalariBlock</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Luciferium</drug>
</li>
</drugs>
</li>
</policies>
</drugPolicyDatabase>

This will reset it to the default settings with the new drug policy system.

Quote from: MarvinKosh on August 23, 2016, 01:07:51 AM

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 22, 2016, 09:56:22 PM
Any way to use older savegames in the new update? I keep getting errors with the new drug system.

You need to edit your saved game. Look for the assignedDrugDatabase tags, and replace that entire section with this:

Code Select Expand

<drugPolicyDatabase>
<policies>
<li>
<uniqueId>1</uniqueId>
<label>Social drugs</label>
<drugs>
<li>
<drug>Beer</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Joint</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Yayo</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Flake</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>GoJuice</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Amphetamine</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>MalariBlock</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Luciferium</drug>
</li>
</drugs>
</li>
<li>
<uniqueId>2</uniqueId>
<label>No drugs</label>
<drugs>
<li>
<drug>Beer</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Joint</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Yayo</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Flake</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>GoJuice</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Amphetamine</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>MalariBlock</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Luciferium</drug>
</li>
</drugs>
</li>
<li>
<uniqueId>3</uniqueId>
<label>Unrestricted</label>
<drugs>
<li>
<drug>Beer</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Joint</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Yayo</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Flake</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>GoJuice</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Amphetamine</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>MalariBlock</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Luciferium</drug>
</li>
</drugs>
</li>
<li>
<uniqueId>4</uniqueId>
<label>One drink per day</label>
<drugs>
<li>
<drug>Beer</drug>
<usage>Scheduled</usage>
<takeToInventory>1</takeToInventory>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Joint</drug>
<usage>ForJoy</usage>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Yayo</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Flake</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>GoJuice</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Amphetamine</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>MalariBlock</drug>
</li>
<li>
<drug>Luciferium</drug>
</li>
</drugs>
</li>
</policies>
</drugPolicyDatabase>

This will reset it to the default settings with the new drug policy system.

Excellent stuff. Cheers!

This alcohol withdrawal is absurd.

It's been almost 2 seasons since one of my colonists crashlanded with alcohol addiction. She's going into sad wanders twice a day still. According to the stats, she's spent nearly 6 days total in mental breaks (all of which have been from the withdrawal), which is almost as much time as she's spent sleeping.

I could plant hops and ferment some beer to relieve it, but I'm holding out to see just how long it lasts. I suspect it may be indefinite.

UPDATE: Oh come on. She finally breaks out of 2 sad wanders to sleep, then when she wakes up she immediately goes back into another sad wander! At this rate she's going to starve herself to death from withdrawal. Something has to be wrong here, her mental breaks are only getting worse as time goes on.

I'm gonna rebalance addiction a bit, you'll see it on my todo from my last post :)

That said it is supposed to be pretty serious.

Speaking of alcohol addiction, my husky got into the alcohol (the thieving little bitch), and now I keep getting an error. Husky191919 threw exception while determining job (main): System.NullReferenceException blah di blah di blah RimWorld.JobGiver SatisfyDrugDesire.DrugValidator and so on and so forth.

Going to shoot her in her fucking head for causing this error. Her blood is on your hands, Mr. Sylvester. She was only 8, and did nothing wrong other than...well, she was a thieving bitch as previously stated.

Quote from: Tynan on August 23, 2016, 04:33:04 AM
I'm gonna rebalance addiction a bit, you'll see it on my todo from my last post :)

That said it is supposed to be pretty serious.

She got damn near unusable near the end there. She was going into 2 sad wanderings a day, 2 seasons after kicking the booze.

Anyway, she finally recovered from it 34 days later. Now I can start planting hops...

My other colonist developed a marijuana dependency in the meantime. We'll see how long it takes him to kick the habit...

While all of the drug and addiction/withdrawal stuff is making colony life interesting, I'm finding the the whole lack of leadership/common good/survival/inability to detain people who are clearly hurting themselves and putting everyone in jeopardy hard to keep down.

The incident in the post above when the break happened at the wrong time would still be totally legit, but having to just sit back and watch psychotic behavior after that raid was done doesn't fly.

Having to deal with little Jimmy after he's broken into the storage and having to deal with the repercussions of confining him to a room and deal with the having to guard/feed/treat as necessary should be a thing just as much as the addiction.

Having pawns that refuse to do violent or are not capable of guarding/arresting etc; having a replacement use for melee and the big stick/club should be on the table as well.

It seems the game is taking a very long road that's balancing behaviors to avoid the obvious. A group like this would have some sort of organization. Some sort of "law". For some players it would be very lax, for others it would be named Marshal... But they would have it.

Have to say this "unstable" test branch has been one of the most stable games I've ever run. That in and of itself is rather incredible. Had the pop happen after a long time without saving, otherwise not a single glitch.
_   

EDIT : this was a bug : wrong post place

So I've got an alcoholic prisoner, who's almost permanently "sad wandering", because I can't actually feed her beer. I understand that withdrawal and drugging prisoners are both being addressed, but there's an additional unexpected side-effect: she's probably the happiest person in the base. Those three stacks of catharsis from end-to-end mental breaks really make her happy.

Ok some stuff and things

#1 Frozen/spoiled beer barrels
They are broken. When they become spoiled there is no way to clear them. They are spoiled forever. You have to deconstruct them.

#2 Rolling joints.
Rolling joints is not part of the drug lab crafting recipe, it is in the crafting spot bench. This was very confusing and it took me over 4 hours to figure out how to roll a joint. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be in the crafting spot bench, but it should be added to the drug lab bench as well.

#3 Recruiting Prisoners
I don't know what happened, and I can't prove it, but it seems like it is impossible to recruit anyone even with low recruitment difficulties like 75%. I have had two hole play-throughs, and the first prisoner sat in prison literally the entire game, and I couldn't get him, even with a 13 level social guy wearing a cowboy hat. Again can't prove it, but it doesn't feel right. I was playing on Cassandra rough.

#4 Traders
Traders carry the key ingredient for the higher level drugs, and they come around maybe once or twice a year, and they don't always carry it. Maybe consider allowing the caravans to carry the ingredient so that my meth lab can get rolling because I need cash for the honies.

5# Growing time for weed
I'm pretty sure weed doesn't take very long to grow but it takes longer than heal root. It is a low level drug, so maybe make it grow in slightly less time. I would say somewhere between potato and corn.

Otherwise I am loving A15.
The mood balance + drugs make the game play out so much nicer, and you don't have a horrific tantrum spiral after my colonist/ wife/ friend/lover died all with stacking mood penalties for 2 years 3 seasons 4 days and 12 hours.

Now instead of dying in one attack, I'm dying a slow agonizing death. Love it!


 

Is there a link somewhere to get Unstable Versions? Or did I miss an Email about them or something?
My game has been saying there's a newer version out since I downloaded it so I've been wondering for a while. But I didn't realize Alpha 15 was getting so close.

Quote from: OutcastPurple on August 23, 2016, 08:40:41 AM
Is there a link somewhere to get Unstable Versions? Or did I miss an Email about them or something?
My game has been saying there's a newer version out since I downloaded it so I've been wondering for a while. But I didn't realize Alpha 15 was getting so close.

If you have it on steam right click it, properties, betas tab, and select unstable public testing

Quote from: Jstank on August 23, 2016, 08:48:07 AM

Quote from: OutcastPurple on August 23, 2016, 08:40:41 AM
Is there a link somewhere to get Unstable Versions? Or did I miss an Email about them or something?
My game has been saying there's a newer version out since I downloaded it so I've been wondering for a while. But I didn't realize Alpha 15 was getting so close.

If you have it on steam right click it, properties, betas tab, and select unstable public testing

Damn, guess I'll have to wait then, couldn't bribe me with a free Pirate King Pack to add my copy to Steam. =(
Thanks tho.

<quote>#1 Frozen/spoiled beer barrels
They are broken. When they become spoiled there is no way to clear them. They are spoiled forever. You have to deconstruct them.
</quote>
Unless that was broken in a recent patch, then that is completely wrong. They'll refill them on their own.

Quote from: OutcastPurple on August 23, 2016, 08:54:54 AM

Quote from: Jstank on August 23, 2016, 08:48:07 AM

Quote from: OutcastPurple on August 23, 2016, 08:40:41 AM
Is there a link somewhere to get Unstable Versions? Or did I miss an Email about them or something?
My game has been saying there's a newer version out since I downloaded it so I've been wondering for a while. But I didn't realize Alpha 15 was getting so close.

If you have it on steam right click it, properties, betas tab, and select unstable public testing

Damn, guess I'll have to wait then, couldn't bribe me with a free Pirate King Pack to add my copy to Steam. =(
Thanks tho.

Can't you still get the sendowl version? I haven't tried, but I'd be surprised if that got disabled.

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 23, 2016, 09:51:21 AM

Quote from: OutcastPurple on August 23, 2016, 08:54:54 AM

Quote from: Jstank on August 23, 2016, 08:48:07 AM

Quote from: OutcastPurple on August 23, 2016, 08:40:41 AM
Is there a link somewhere to get Unstable Versions? Or did I miss an Email about them or something?
My game has been saying there's a newer version out since I downloaded it so I've been wondering for a while. But I didn't realize Alpha 15 was getting so close.

If you have it on steam right click it, properties, betas tab, and select unstable public testing

Damn, guess I'll have to wait then, couldn't bribe me with a free Pirate King Pack to add my copy to Steam. =(
Thanks tho.

Can't you still get the sendowl version? I haven't tried, but I'd be surprised if that got disabled.

Tynan has stated he is not doing Sendowl for these early releases of A15. Look in the comments of the dev blog: https://ludeon.com/blog/2016/08/alpha-15-unstable-branch-test-is-available/#comments

Quote from: BlackSmokeDMax on August 23, 2016, 10:49:59 AM

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 23, 2016, 09:51:21 AM

Quote from: OutcastPurple on August 23, 2016, 08:54:54 AM

Quote from: Jstank on August 23, 2016, 08:48:07 AM

Quote from: OutcastPurple on August 23, 2016, 08:40:41 AM
Is there a link somewhere to get Unstable Versions? Or did I miss an Email about them or something?
My game has been saying there's a newer version out since I downloaded it so I've been wondering for a while. But I didn't realize Alpha 15 was getting so close.

If you have it on steam right click it, properties, betas tab, and select unstable public testing

Damn, guess I'll have to wait then, couldn't bribe me with a free Pirate King Pack to add my copy to Steam. =(
Thanks tho.

Can't you still get the sendowl version? I haven't tried, but I'd be surprised if that got disabled.

Tynan has stated he is not doing Sendowl for these early releases of A15. Look in the comments of the dev blog: https://ludeon.com/blog/2016/08/alpha-15-unstable-branch-test-is-available/#comments

I meant to get the game. I'm fairly certain that you can have the game both on Steam and on sendowl. The unstable one is obviously only on Steam, but it should be perfectly doable to add it on steam for the unstable version, and still get the regular version sent via sendowl. Or does adding it on steam for some reason cancel out sendowl completely?

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 23, 2016, 11:46:35 AM

Quote from: BlackSmokeDMax on August 23, 2016, 10:49:59 AM

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 23, 2016, 09:51:21 AM

Quote from: OutcastPurple on August 23, 2016, 08:54:54 AM

Quote from: Jstank on August 23, 2016, 08:48:07 AM

Quote from: OutcastPurple on August 23, 2016, 08:40:41 AM
Is there a link somewhere to get Unstable Versions? Or did I miss an Email about them or something?
My game has been saying there's a newer version out since I downloaded it so I've been wondering for a while. But I didn't realize Alpha 15 was getting so close.

If you have it on steam right click it, properties, betas tab, and select unstable public testing

Damn, guess I'll have to wait then, couldn't bribe me with a free Pirate King Pack to add my copy to Steam. =(
Thanks tho.

Can't you still get the sendowl version? I haven't tried, but I'd be surprised if that got disabled.

Tynan has stated he is not doing Sendowl for these early releases of A15. Look in the comments of the dev blog: https://ludeon.com/blog/2016/08/alpha-15-unstable-branch-test-is-available/#comments

I meant to get the game. I'm fairly certain that you can have the game both on Steam and on sendowl. The unstable one is obviously only on Steam, but it should be perfectly doable to add it on steam for the unstable version, and still get the regular version sent via sendowl. Or does adding it on steam for some reason cancel out sendowl completely?

Ah! I believe if you bought before the date the policy changed to no longer receiving a Steam key with a purchase on ludeon, then yes you can still activate on Steam. And no, it doesn't cancel the SendOwl. Although I think Tynan said that policy may change in the future depending on abuse.

The font seems to be broken since last patch. (playing german Version)

Also there is something popping up in background...every second or so... :(

At any rate though, I'm sure it will be released shortly. It's got a pretty good feel to it at the moment. I built my own little coke-imperium in the North pole. 10/11 colonists are hooked, and it's only a matter of time before the last one is too. I might even give the luciferium a try shortly!

Quote from: Harasdar on August 23, 2016, 12:34:26 PM
The font seems to be broken since last patch. (playing german Version)

Also there is something popping up in background...every second or so... :(

Enable dev mode. That sounds a lot like it could be the error text. (Red text blinking). In dev mode, you'll get a popup that will explain the problem.

OK...just seems to be the savegame out of an old build :(

Doing fine there...but hey...time to start a new colony ;)

Are we going to be able to request specific types of traders? Seems kinda odd that you can request a trade caravan, but can't tell them what you are interested in. I called 3 at the same time, all combat suppliers which were useless to me, so a complete waste of 900 gold.

Latest build broke my .72 save. Something to do with drug policies i believe. Keep getting red text and the screen where you can asign policies is bugged out.
Is that as expected or a bug?
And yes i don't mind if my save is screwed, happens with dev builds.

Quote from: Kruisboog on August 23, 2016, 02:03:17 PM
Latest build broke my .72 save. Something to do with drug policies i believe. Keep getting red text and the screen where you can asign policies is bugged out.
Is that as expected or a bug?
And yes i don't mind if my save is screwed, happens with dev builds.

It is expected, but I think a few pages back someone had a solution to the issue, requires editing the save file.

I think the low-level addictions (marijuana, beer) need different Mental Breaks than the Sad Wander. Here's my suggestions:

Breakdown: Victim heads to a gathering spot and curls up in the fetal position sobbing. Causes a mood debuff to anyone who sees it.

Loses Temper: Victim hunts down a colonist he dislikes and starts insulting him. Increased chance of starting a social fight. Doesn't last long, but causes injuries.

Rebellious Worker: Victim completely ignores job priorities, only does jobs he's passionate about.

What about making it so when someone goes on a drug/alcohol binge, when you run out instead of them just wandering for the rest of the day, they go through a more severe mental break.

There are instructions for restoring a save file from yesterday (build 1272) here:

https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=24503.msg254498#msg254498

However, if you've already loaded and resaved it, those don't seem to work as stated. Instead, what I did was find the drugPolicyDatabase tag (there should be just one, with a null value) and replace it with the tags from that post.

Fixed my save problem, thanks guys!

New build is going up, live in 15 minutes. Should be save compatible with last one.

Thank you for the ongoing feedback! Keep it coming, please.

Changes:
-----------

Split drug binge into major and extreme: major is beer and joints, extreme is flake, yayo, etc. Binge drug selection works like this: If you have addiction(s), you select a random drug you're addicted to. Otherwise, you select any drug from the group of drugs your mental break type supports. If none is available, you select any extant pleasure drug. If none is available, you select any drug at all. If a chemical interest pawn mental breaks, it's much more likely to be a drug binge.
Shifted pemmican to a more gray brown color.
Colonists now universally have a preference by meals for 7 cells, reflecting their ingredient efficiency and cultural status as 'the proper' food.
Catharsis stacks lower.
IngestionOutcomeDoer_OffsetNeed now applies toleranceChemical, so having a tolerance mean you need more of a drug to satisfy your need.
cMake it so you have to take drugs multiple times to become addicted. I can make a minimum tolerance for addiction.
Game now gives feedback on withdrawal progress.
Rebalanced drug withdrawal consequences and durations.
Tolerances now fall a lot slower and rise somwhat faster, so it's actually possible for them to build up.
Reduced alcohol addiction rate 1% -> 0.7%.
In the inspect pane for fermentation barrels states the temperature limits.
Fix: Animal error: Husky191919 threw exception while determining job (main): System.NullReferenceException blah di blah di blah RimWorld.JobGiver SatisfyDrugDesire.DrugValidator
Balanced generation of deep resources to not be so absurdly rich.
Fix: "teetotaler" translation missing.


Todo
-------

Allow requesting specific trader type.
Ensure prisoners can take drugs in their cells to feed their addictions.
Fix: No ingest effects while relaxing socially.
Fix linux: Player.log is created only if you run the game from the console. If you run the game through steam then Player.log is missing.
Write an econ path analyzer and balance growable products profit rates.

Quote from: Kaiser23k on August 22, 2016, 10:14:11 PM
Permadeath mode not working as described.

"In permadeath mode, you get one save file and can ONLY SAVE when QUITTING the game. You cannot reload the game to fix mistakes, and when the colony dies, that's it."

Currently my game auto saves at most twice per game day while using Permadeath mode.

Re-posting just in case it was missed.  Sorry

Quote from: Kaiser23k on August 23, 2016, 05:58:51 PM

Quote from: Kaiser23k on August 22, 2016, 10:14:11 PM
Permadeath mode not working as described.

"In permadeath mode, you get one save file and can ONLY SAVE when QUITTING the game. You cannot reload the game to fix mistakes, and when the colony dies, that's it."

Currently my game auto saves at most twice per game day while using Permadeath mode.

Re-posting just in case it was missed.  Sorry

That's not a bug. It should autosave over your permadeath save file. Which means that you do only have one save. The autosaves prevent some types of save-scumming, and also secure against computer crashes.

Quote from: Kaiser23k on August 23, 2016, 05:58:51 PM

Quote from: Kaiser23k on August 22, 2016, 10:14:11 PM
Permadeath mode not working as described.

"In permadeath mode, you get one save file and can ONLY SAVE when QUITTING the game. You cannot reload the game to fix mistakes, and when the colony dies, that's it."

Currently my game auto saves at most twice per game day while using Permadeath mode.

Re-posting just in case it was missed.  Sorry

Standard issue for all "permadeath" modes normally this is called ironman you can't save scum in it so it should save twice a day to prevent you from rolling back it shouldn't even be a problem at all unless your trying to save scum the story. If you go afk for whatever reason on that mode hit space and pause it, that is whole concept of that mode. I am still a fan if we get achievements they should require permadeath on, like CK2 requires Ironman saves in order to get achievements.

After playing with an ex friend who is a save scumming machine. I can really see the need I find myself wanting to do it all the time thanks to him. Just go back a save and try again....

Anyways on topic looking good so far, only problem I have had in last day was this morning I didn't realize a guy I rescued had a pocket full of drugs... Pretty sure its working as intended just was not expected rescued him from pirates and he snapped and attacked some one, so I rifle butted him to the ground and he dropped a small stack of drugs he had on him when he fled the pirates.

Okay, thank you for clarifying.  Then in that case the description for Permadeath mode needs to be changed. 

As for save scumming in Permadeath mode, I made a suggestion here https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=22809.0  explaining that it is quite easy to save scum currently in Permadeath due to the auto save feature.

The deep drill should be spectacularly ugly, or something. At the moment I have a mining operation going on in my living room and nobody cares. Perhaps it should also generate heat when active.

Ah, another patch, another colony restart. Man, at the rate Tynan's cranking them out, I'll never be able to actually build a colony up to Drug Research levels for proper testing...

Quote from: kamenoitte on August 23, 2016, 06:29:03 PM
The deep drill should be spectacularly ugly, or something. At the moment I have a mining operation going on in my living room and nobody cares. Perhaps it should also generate heat when active.

Thanks, very good note.

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 23, 2016, 07:50:56 PM
Ah, another patch, another colony restart. Man, at the rate Tynan's cranking them out, I'll never be able to actually build a colony up to Drug Research levels for proper testing...

Most of the time you can load your old saves.

On a sidenote, do you guys think that Tynan blew most of his Rimworld cash on coke? It would explain so much. The recent drug update, the countless updates, that he appears to always be awake, the amount of work he gets done without ever needing a break... #Conspiracy.

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 23, 2016, 09:05:51 PM

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 23, 2016, 07:50:56 PM
Ah, another patch, another colony restart. Man, at the rate Tynan's cranking them out, I'll never be able to actually build a colony up to Drug Research levels for proper testing...

Most of the time you can load your old saves.

True, but for testing, I just like starting a new colony to minimize the potential bugs from save conversion.

This update rewrote how deep resources are generated, so to give high quality feedback you'd need to start a new map.

Drug Addiction tab in the learning helper: 3rd paragraph, withdrawal is spelled "widthdrawal". Minor, but figured it's a quick fix.

I posted this under the bugs forum too, before I knew about this thread.

This might seem minor, but the backstory "Biosphere Manager" forbids plant cutting, even though the backstory describes how the pawn "managed the plant life" of a glitterworld.

Quote from: Ambigore on August 23, 2016, 11:27:32 PM
This might seem minor, but the backstory "Biosphere Manager" forbids plant cutting, even though the backstory describes how the pawn "managed the plant life" of a glitterworld.

I think that means he just grew plants instead of cutting them down.

Withdrawal might be too easy now. I had a colonist start with cocaine addiction, it lasted for 18 days and she didn't have a single Mental Break that entire time.

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 23, 2016, 11:31:48 PM

Quote from: Ambigore on August 23, 2016, 11:27:32 PM
This might seem minor, but the backstory "Biosphere Manager" forbids plant cutting, even though the backstory describes how the pawn "managed the plant life" of a glitterworld.

I think that means he just grew plants instead of cutting them down.

I know, but it seems a little immersion breaking. The person's supposed to manage a biosphere, but won't cut plants. Doesn't really gel. If it's because the person's a manager who refuses to get dirty, I think the backstory should emphasis that a little more. However, the backstory provides a significant "Growing" bonus, so it suggests the person does indeed get dirty.

Is it just me or is drug policy not working? every time I go back into it says I have no policy. My people are smoking pot all day now, when ever they feel like it they grab some for joy, but I specifically set it for only low mood peons. But ever time I go to the menu it says I didn't select one. Am I missing a confirm button some were I just see close...

IngestionOutcomeDoer_OffsetNeed now applies toleranceChemical, so having a tolerance mean you need more of a drug to satisfy your need.

This part could really use a tooltip explaining how much more they need. All of my colonists are off their tits on coke, but I have no idea how much I'll need. Currently I have a pretty good supply (Pablo Escobar would be proud), but it's impossible for me to know just how much they'll need to sustain their habits.

Also, does this also include luciferium? I have 140 of them waiting in my storage for testing, but I'm not sure that's something I want to do if I cannot get enough to supply the people with it, due to the massive penalties if I should run out.

With the recent sowing crop changes, it seems like colonists are increasing their Growing skill more than ever. I've had a colonist with Passionate Growing go from 11 to 15 over 2 seasons.

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 24, 2016, 03:39:53 AM
With the recent sowing crop changes, it seems like colonists are increasing their Growing skill more than ever. I've had a colonist with Passionate Growing go from 11 to 15 over 2 seasons.

Thanks, that would make perfect sense.

Quote from: Tynan on August 24, 2016, 03:53:28 AM

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 24, 2016, 03:39:53 AM
With the recent sowing crop changes, it seems like colonists are increasing their Growing skill more than ever. I've had a colonist with Passionate Growing go from 11 to 15 over 2 seasons.

Thanks, that would make perfect sense.

I double-checked her starting Growing value. I underestimated it... she went from 6 to 15 over the course of 39 days. And that was just with Passionate (100% learning rate).

Many thanks for the edge buffer. I can now use both the learning menu and the sorted inventory list with no issues.
(edit: Nevermind. It's just the top rows as it's always been. get down past meds and I can't touch the arrows without the game flying off to the left. Pain in the arse...)

Thank you also for burning clothes in a campfire... And the drugs.

Possible to have a slight mood debuff for burning clothes due to the smell, especially if doing this indoors?
As for burning drugs; some of the chemicals could be quite nasty.
For plant matter it could be a high and a low...
"oh, there goes ma drugs"
"oooh, contact high..."
If done in an enclosed space, everyone in an area could be effected, at least if they go within a tile or two of the fire.
I don't think this should result in addiction, but could potentially alter a pawn to want to try it again... Which could.
_

Animal AI is quite buggy, you can see it in this guys stream
https://www.twitch.tv/disnof/v/85317778
Most notably the Animal AI flips out at: 3:57:50
He promptly suggested afterwards(2-3 minutes after the incident) to add the Release animals as a "Attack This" command similiarly to what Pawns have when they are Drafted.

About drug & drug names...

I'd favor going all the way to "fantasy" drug names for all but alcohol.

Cannabis for example being by default a "social" drug is fine by me but in places I've lived in... not quite so. Mostly it's illegal, even if quite tolerated. Same, I'd leave out the names of the plants : coca & cannabis, and replace them by some either more obscure or somewhat obfuscated. There is going to be endless stupid debate about that.

About "yayo" and "flake" bother cater to cocaine addition and such but the flavor text of the drugs don't show it, or I have not found it. "Products" should show what addition they cause and "cure".

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but drilling gold has allowed me to reach ridiculous wealth relatively quickly. Perhaps if less gold was mined per cycle, it would be less dramatic. Just a thought  :D

Quote from: LightOfTheMoon on August 24, 2016, 01:23:21 PM
Don't know if this has been mentioned, but drilling gold has allowed me to reach ridiculous wealth relatively quickly. Perhaps if less gold was mined per cycle, it would be less dramatic. Just a thought  :D

As Tynan said in the post at the beginning of the page, he have corrected this; you need to make a new map for the changes to take effect.

I've just posted a new version.

I hope this one is final. Aside from a few cosmetic changes I'm not planning on changing anything else.

Saves should be compatible with last update.

Please test and give me feedback about how it is! I would really love to read any play stories, balance feedback, or bug reports.

Thanks all.

Tynan: How long should we have to test this until the official public release?

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 24, 2016, 06:13:18 PM
Tynan: How long should we have to test this until the official public release?

Thousands of people have asked me about release dates, and the answer is always the same: I don't know!

Git log:
3d6f457 Translations update.
23b551e Fix: They'll refill a barrel in a frozen/over-hot area and immediately destroy the wort
221e5dc Fix: Wort doesn't spoil
e403a97 Fix: Resource readout categories count even things inside sub-categories that are their own resource readout roots. Fix: Resource readout sub-categories don't tab in.
6ab6bc0 Cleanup on resource readout. It now shows all appropriate resource.
297c77a Tooltip for tolerance now numerically outputs the effect multiplier. Tooltips can be wider.
e60075a Allow requesting specific trader kinds.
d947d77 Drug tolerance now affects ingestible outcome need offsets.
fa051e6 Merge branch 'alpha15' of https://bitbucket.org/TynanSylvester/rimworld into alpha15
0262a1b Various text and balance changes.
8a79f08 "Burn apparel" and "burn drugs" campfire bills no longer use Cooking work type.


Quote from: Tynan on August 24, 2016, 06:15:38 PM

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 24, 2016, 06:13:18 PM
Tynan: How long should we have to test this until the official public release?

Thousands of people have asked me about release dates, and the answer is always the same: I don't know!

Woo! I might finally get to spend more than 2 days on a public test colony!

Before getting electrically cooled/heated rooms, tribal start always lose their beer brewing barrels(from spoilage) to random events.

Makes it kind of not worthwhile to plant hops or at least extremely risky for not much reward, don't think it was that bad in real life?

Quote from: Tynan on August 24, 2016, 06:00:08 PM
I've just posted a new version.

I hope this one is final. Aside from a few cosmetic changes I'm not planning on changing anything else.

Saves should be compatible with last update.

Please test and give me feedback about how it is! I would really love to read any play stories, balance feedback, or bug reports.

Thanks all.

Is there a changelog anywhere so we know what to test specifically in each version?

Changelog added!

Was hoping to keep this post short but....noope, sorry

Tutorial-
I went through the tutorial twice to be sure because I felt something was missing. After the raider attacks and you defend you choose your storyteller and it's over.
But what about graves?
I feel new players should have to build a grave to deal with the body after. One of the defining characteristics of Rimworld is that you gotta deal with them bodies...otherwise you can easily get alot of mood debuffs and things can spiral from there. New player's may not realize the associated debuffs until it's too late. In which case we're likely to see them complaining on reddit/the forums about mood spirals. It might be worth putting the joy part around the same time as that to allow some explanation of mood effects as a whole. With that said, I read your reddit post about not wanting to overload the player right off the bat and I absolutely agree so I understand the difficulty in keeping the tutorial limited but I feel graves and moods should be significant enough to make the cut.

Drugs-
Giving the pawns the ability to pick up more than one of any drug seems to be a bit moot->When a pawn picks up more than one drug they can't use it from the Gear tab, instead it must be dropped, then used from the ground. This leaves the remainder of the drugs on the ground, which besides making hauling more pesky, makes it a bit pointless to carry more than one.
I could understand carrying drugs to bring go-juice to where drafted pawns are for the occasional defense. But as is the player can simply place the drugs at defend stations-unfortunately at the moment this is made very difficult due to stack size via lowering and raising stockpile priorities.
Perhaps allow a pawn to carry a drug in their gear, without being under a policy which allows them to use said drug freely. Like a "carry extra" tick/untick option or a "use when drafted"

Tolerance feels good, it rises and lowers at a decent pace, not too fast or slow. I feel tolerance is still a bit muddled in terms of the player knowing what is actually happening-I don't know how long a drug should last under x, y or z level of tolerance, I don't even know if it's x doses per tolerance or if it just lasts shorter.
Perhaps some time estimate would be handy- even just the default no-tolerance duration would be very useful.
EDIT I can see you added the % to tolerance multiplier, looks great. which was updated as im typing haha :)

Marijuana yield feels too high, with just a small 8X8 field I was able to get enough joints for long term use and still have plenty to sell. Somewhere along the production chain it feels like too much, not sure if its even worth bottlenecking though as the downsides don't go away even with a steady supply, if not I think the value for joints may still be a bit high. The so-far reduced value feels better but i'm not sure it's enough.

Coca growth time/reward feels right as does the flake to yayo conversion.

Amphetamine production is a bit too easy, with minimal starting silver I can easily get a huge chunk of neutroamine (which is quite hard to pronounce, I suggest a hyphen). then it's just a matter of time for the research, during which i can get even more. The low cost of neutroamine combined with the ability to mass produce and sell joints makes it really easy.
Considering Amph's huge gain of rest, consciousness, work speed, and moving, I feel like it should either be more addictive, harder to buy in large quantities, higher research, require more neutroamine etcetc.

Withdrawl-
Being able to see the % is super handy.
Felt like it was too harsh before but now it feels too weak. Had a guy with Amphetamine addiction get to 45% and didn't see a single mental break or anything. Not sure if i'm imagining it or not but did you replace all the mental breaks with long term debuffs? Going that route makes sense as a sort of mild but long term negative, requiring other drugs or joy to make up the mood loss.
That plays into making random/stray drugs be the real danger with withdrawing pawns.
I'll try to play around with withdrawals more in my next game session.

Drug Policy interface-
The updated tick/untick style display looks much better than before. Being able to have multiple triggers is great. The "drug policy name" (Chemical interest) identifier is great, no longer have to check and re-check character tabs
I kept thinking that having both mood and joy triggers for policies was a bit redundant but after some thinking it makes sense to have both, otherwise you cant do drugs for one level of joy and another for mood.

My understanding is that the drug system is designed to (other than the obvious emergent gameplay) improve mood and performance. But I'm having some issues with the performance enhancement aspect.
After playing with a stable colony for a while and really seeing the effects in action it felt like something obvious was missing.
At first I was using the default restrict schedule with only sleep and anything. Issue with that is that they would end up being active during the SLEEP periods, during which they only sleep or do joy if not tired-that makes sense to me so no issue there. This didn't feel very effective though as Pawns were overloading on joy and hardly any work was being done.
So I've been using the restrict tab with NO SLEEP, only a few hours of joy and the rest anything. This allows them to get mandatory joy while sleeping and working whenever they want. But even doing it this way I have no idea when they will tire.
The ability to trigger drugs based on REST.
As of writing this I can only get my colonists to do drugs when tired manually, by watching the colonist bar for who sleeps, which feels exactly like what the drug policy system was designed to make easier.
At first I thought a REST trigger would be overpowered but here's my idea after some thought.
The gain of increased productivity could be balanced with my pawn's risk of overdoses for short term usage, and tolerance levels for long term usage.
So say I want to rush my guys to finish a building or craft whatever->Schedule some work hours->Dose them up->Do the work
In that scenario the pawns lose mood and rest from increased work hours but that could be made up for by rest+ drugs and mood+ drugs. But riding them too hard like that would increase the risk of OD.
For a more long term situation the tolerance level would balance out the doses per day so as not to have some supermen colony of drug addicts, this is where knowing how many doses per tolerance (or however it works) is useful to know.

I'm sure there's some things i'm forgetting but i'll leave that for next time, thanks again for taking the time to read my post, and the last one, Tynan. Feel free to respond if you would like to clarify anything.

Cheers PK

PS where can I find that changelog? <3

Fantastic. I do have one last problem, but I'm sure this is only happening on icesheet colonies that are fairly extreme. I keep asking people to send trade caravans, but they never arrive. There's no message indicating that they won't be arriving, they just don't. Even during the mild summer months, when they would survive the trip.

Is this working as intended to prevent people from exploiting the caravans? If so, it's not really needed. I added a forced one every season to test it, and the muffaloes always somehow managed to escape. Lots and lots of dead people - no dead muffaloes. No awesome free loot.
(This was at the coldest known map with -100C average winters).

Thanks for the feedback Prettykrazy, very useful! I've taken some notes for sure.

The changelog is in the last build announcement post.

ReZ - That would be because they'll refuse to arrive if they'd die in the cold. I'll look into this. Thanks; I didn't think of it. If you'd email me your save that'd be useful.

I keep restarting to try out new things, so the one where I forced the caravans is gone. If it helps, I'd be more than happy to set up a new one though?

Drugs should deteriorate out in the open. My current game has some flake and yayo on the map (from raiders) that's still at 50/50 after months. (The relevance is that someone might walk across the map during a binge to get to it, and it would be nice if it had naturally disappeared like other things tend to.)

"e60075a Allow requesting specific trader kinds." Tynan you beautiful man, I LOVE YOU!!

Quote from: NolanSyKinsley on August 24, 2016, 08:56:12 PM
"e60075a Allow requesting specific trader kinds." Tynan you beautiful man, I LOVE YOU!!

...Because he thinks in git's hashe's!

Lol, it's not hex, is git's hash of the commit.

Does tolerance affect the characters addiction need? It might be a cool thing, but at the same time, it could spiral into forced overdoses.

(currently running another drug colony and tracking tolerances, and it seems to be working pretty well so far)

also, selecting a caravan type to send while you don't have enough money to order a caravan throws a the error "could not find any silver to transfer to trader"

Quote from: crazybmanp on August 25, 2016, 01:13:02 AM
also, selecting a caravan type to send while you don't have enough money to order a caravan throws a the error "could not find any silver to transfer to trader"

Can you please elaborate?

How do you make this happen exactly?

What were you expecting to happen?

- go to the comm station
- select a faction to request a trade caravan from
- select the option to request a caravan
- don't have enough money to request a caravan (have 0 silver)
- choose an option for a caravan
> you will get an error message pop up on the dev console

I would expect that the game should detect if you don't have enough silver to request a caravan, and instead give a message instead of throwing an error into the debug console.

(sorry, this really should have gone into the bug forum)

Quote from: crazybmanp on August 25, 2016, 03:13:16 AM
- go to the comm station
- select a faction to request a trade caravan from
- select the option to request a caravan
- don't have enough money to request a caravan (have 0 silver)
- choose an option for a caravan
> you will get an error message pop up on the dev console

I would expect that the game should detect if you don't have enough silver to request a caravan, and instead give a message instead of throwing an error into the debug console.

(sorry, this really should have gone into the bug forum)

I can't reproduce this, how are you doing it? I get the option nicely grayed out like this:

(http://puu.sh/qOcYy/5279fd12a0.jpg)

Quote from: Tynan on August 25, 2016, 03:24:09 PM

Quote from: crazybmanp on August 25, 2016, 03:13:16 AM
~snip~

I can't reproduce this, how are you doing it? I get the option nicely grayed out like this:

~snip~

I loaded up the save that was doing this, and I, as well, cannot reproduce this bug. I tried removing all of my silver, almost all of my silver (when i triggered this, i had 0 silver in my stockpile) I tried placing the silver within the stockpile range, but outside of a wall. It had happened multiple times yesterday any time i tried to call a caravan with not enough silver.

This is worrying, however there was a patch earlier today, maybe i had some edge-case that was patched by a tangentially related change? (likely not, but either case is worrying)

It's is why it's good to post the log when the bug happens! I could've traced it from the log.

Oh well.

Quote from: Tynan on August 25, 2016, 05:09:23 PM
It's is why it's good to post the log when the bug happens! I could've traced it from the log.

Oh well.

sorry about that, i wasn't thinking straight

I have a colonist with the Hard Working trait, and she have a "Hard Worker vs Lazy: -5" social effect with every other colonist, even if they do not have any Lazy traits or any other traits related to reduced work performance. I dunno if its intentional that the hard worker see everyone else without the trait as lazy, but one of them have the very neurotic trait that give that colonist even better work performance than the one with the hard working trait and thus it doesn't seem right that this colonist would be considered lazy as well.

ShadowTani - that is a bit weird I agree, but it is technically working as designed.

A new build is up! This is the first release candidate. Hoping to release it as final if there aren't major issues.

This is also the first non-dev version so it should run faster and you can build mods against it.

Saves from last 2 builds should still work, but your drug policies will reset.

Change list
1be6c6d Reduced bond with animal chance.
dcd7900 Fix: Smoke emitted at angle related to pawn facing.
cdc9ad6 Fix: No ingest effects while relaxing socially. Fix: some data errors with creative content.
cde6cee Creative content update.
fba4055 Made separate "drug allowed for joy" checkbox and "drug use scheduled" checkboxes in drug policy config so you can schedule a drug for colonists without giving them joy access to it.
598b0c6 Made some withdrawal symptoms a bit worse. Made joints a bit slower and less efficient to produce. Rebalanced some other drug economy numbers.
64c8382 Torch lamp makes less heat, turret no longer rotatable
431d513 Fix: Components don't show up in sorted resource list
3d6f457 Translations update.

Thanks all!

Quote from: Tynan on August 25, 2016, 05:30:37 PM
ShadowTani - that is a bit weird I agree, but it is technically working as designed.

A new build is up! This is the first release candidate. Hoping to release it as final if there aren't major issues.

This is also the first non-dev version so it should run faster and you can build mods against it.

Saves from last 2 builds should still work, but your drug policies will reset.

Change list

Code Select Expand

1be6c6d Reduced bond with animal chance.
dcd7900 Fix: Smoke emitted at angle related to pawn facing.
cdc9ad6 Fix: No ingest effects while relaxing socially. Fix: some data errors with creative content.
cde6cee Creative content update.
fba4055 Made separate "drug allowed for joy" checkbox and "drug use scheduled" checkboxes in drug policy config so you can schedule a drug for colonists without giving them joy access to it.
598b0c6 Made some withdrawal symptoms a bit worse. Made joints a bit slower and less efficient to produce. Rebalanced some other drug economy numbers.
64c8382 Torch lamp makes less heat, turret no longer rotatable
431d513 Fix: Components don't show up in sorted resource list
3d6f457 Translations update.

Thanks all!

Interesting, so the dev builds actually ran much slower? Interesting; I was wondering why they had more slowdown. What prompted the animal bond, torch lamp, and turret changes?

Basically, if a bonded animal dies, it can make the owner go insane. Which meant that having bonded animals was more trouble than it's worth.

Torch lamps produced a fair bit of heat, to the point where campfires weren't worth building.

Turrets were basically the same no matter which way they face so, rotating them was a bit redundant.

I like the new resource skins! A bit shiny, but other than that it's pretty good.

Couple bugs:

• I was subscribed to some mods, but all disabled, and the game wouldn't let me create a new colony. As in, I was able to select Cassandra and rough difficulty, but clicking "next" didn't do anything. Reinstalling the game didn't work. I unsubscribed from all mods, did local cache check, and a new game started up just fine.
  
• Had a couple XML errors at startup. Reinstalling didn't work, but unsubscribing from all mods and checking local cache seemed to solve the issue
  
  Also, what happened to the Learning helper? I really liked that we could look through the tutorials, select ones we wanted to read, even search through it. Any reason we're back to popups?
  
  The flashes are great, they bring attention to certain tabs as required. But, again, I think the learning helper was much better than popups. It seemed more organized.
  
  Edit: The icons in the Zone/Area menu look a bit weird, I think sticking with the 2d theme is fine as long the game itself is 2d. If the game ever moves towards a top-down look, like Banished or SimCity 4, then the 3d icons would work I think.
  
  Edit 2: I think the reason it looks weird is the blue background. The orders menu (http://i.imgur.com/pWOloiM.jpg?1) has semi 3d icons but a gray background, and that looks pretty slick.
  
  Edit 3: Props for updating the terrain graphics a bit too! The edges of mountains (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=751934373) look great!

Quote from: Tynan on August 25, 2016, 05:30:37 PM
A new build is up! This is the first release candidate. Hoping to release it as final if there aren't major issues.

This is also the first non-dev version so it should run faster and you can build mods against it.

Thanks all!

Wow, quick.  Clearly a certain "Bad Magician" should have forced trait Industrious.  I've been holding off building my next colony waiting for the next Alpha.  Do you think it's probably saves would transfer to the main update from the current unstable build?

Just push another save-breaking build.

Drugs renamed. Some other fixes and AI tweaks.

sc4s2cg please check your version.

Some of that is from mods. I think you're playing A14.

Quote from: Tynan on August 25, 2016, 08:40:25 PM
Just push another save-breaking build.

Drugs renamed. Some other fixes and AI tweaks.

Any interesting changes that we should know about?

I made it in 3 hours, it wasn't huge :p

Quote from: Tynan on August 25, 2016, 10:02:16 PM
I made it in 3 hours, it wasn't huge :p

Well well well, someone is avoiding the subject. Besides, I happen to know that the sizes used in Rimworld are: Small, Medium, Large and Ludeonicrous. Huge isn't even on the list! So come on, what's the damage? :P

Quote from: Tynan on August 25, 2016, 08:42:03 PM
sc4s2cg please check your version.

Some of that is from mods. I think you're playing A14.

Ah, you were right. It was A14, but I'm not subscribed to any mods and the game was reinstalled multiple times. Were the graphics not updated?

Hello again!

I am currently having a problem with the latest build (15.1276). Apparently none of my pawns possess automation and must be manually told to do everything. Started up the Colony fine, then went to take a nap. Now every time I load the save they just stand around.

I am using no mods. I tried to attach the save file, but the size is too big.

Thank you for your time.

[attachment deleted by admin - too old]

Quote from: Leatherhead on August 25, 2016, 10:27:03 PM
I tried to attach the save file, but the size is too big.

Compress the save file into a .zip file and attach that.

Quote from: Leatherhead on August 25, 2016, 10:27:03 PM
Hello again!

I am currently having a problem with the latest build (15.1276). Apparently none of my pawns possess automation and must be manually told to do everything. Started up the Colony fine, then went to take a nap. Now every time I load the save they just stand around.

I am using no mods. I tried to attach the save file, but the size is too big.

Thank you for your time.

Log indicates a bug. Can you email me the savegame please? [email protected]

Quote from: Tynan on August 25, 2016, 10:49:51 PM
Log indicates a bug. Can you email me the savegame please?

Sent!

I had the same problem between updates. I just figured my save was broken, so I started a new game and the bug disappeared.

Strange behavior that's probably a bug:

I had a colonist crashland with Smokeweed Dependence and 3 Joints in his inventory. He got 43% into withdrawal without smoking a single one of them. I had to manually tell him to drop the joints, then smoke one, for him to get out of withdrawal.

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 26, 2016, 01:16:29 AM
Strange behavior that's probably a bug:

I had a colonist crashland with Smokeweed Dependence and 3 Joints in his inventory. He got 43% into withdrawal without smoking a single one of them. I had to manually tell him to drop the joints, then smoke one, for him to get out of withdrawal.

That's odd, if they crash land I *think* they should drop everything except what they are wearing, perhaps it was bugged because it did not drop the joints like it should.

It's a bug, I'll look into it. Thanks.

Just a minor bug. I custom-named one of my characters in the start to Kaivar Lancer, but when I hover my mouse over the "Disaster survivor" backstory, it comes up with Steven, the initial name at the start of the game.

(hopefully the screenshot shows up)


[attachment deleted by admin - too old]

Unity won't let you remove: (Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/generated/common/runtime/UnityEngineDebugBindings.gen.cpp Line: 37) ?

Quote from: biship on August 26, 2016, 06:00:53 AM
Unity won't let you remove: (Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/generated/common/runtime/UnityEngineDebugBindings.gen.cpp Line: 37) ?

That file in that path won't exist for almost any users. (With the obvious exception of Tynan and the rest of the devs).

i cant load the game

here video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jYnTeqEJm0&feature=youtu.be
and my save file
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g9qgmx0i7uidbha/Tribeman.rws?dl=0

Quote from: Ukanda on August 26, 2016, 06:24:16 AM
i cant load the game

here video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jYnTeqEJm0&feature=youtu.be
and my save file
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g9qgmx0i7uidbha/Tribeman.rws?dl=0

Eh, no shit? Pardon my French.

Tynan made a post about it, explaining that the new version would break old savegames. This isn't a bug.

Quote from: ReZpawner on August 26, 2016, 06:14:11 AM

Quote from: biship on August 26, 2016, 06:00:53 AM
Unity won't let you remove: (Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/generated/common/runtime/UnityEngineDebugBindings.gen.cpp Line: 37) ?

That file in that path won't exist for almost any users. (With the obvious exception of Tynan and the rest of the devs).

I'll reword for you.
Tynan, for release builds, can you suppress this repeating error from our log files: (Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/generated/common/runtime/UnityEngineDebugBindings.gen.cpp Line: 37) ?

Quote from: Ukanda on August 26, 2016, 06:24:16 AM
i cant load the game

If you want to recover your save game you would have to spend a good hour replacing a bounch of stuff related to the new drug names. Like every instance of MarijuanaLeaves must be changed to SmokeleafLeaves, etc. etc. It's better to just start a new game, or wait until A15 officially releases and then restart.

I made my old save work that way as an experiment to see how capable I was of recovering a broken save myself without being told how to do it (like someone generously did earlier in this thread for another time the old saves broke in regards to the drug policy changes). This time I think it's unfortunately a bit too many factors that go into fixing up the save to provide a step by step guide for the average user however. And even for the more advanced user it might be better to just restart, because that was a long tedious hour+ of searching through and replacing stuff, lol. I'm sorry.

No issues thus far, I'm just curious, what prompted the renaming of the drugs? Was there some kind of backlash about them in the game that features slavery and mass-murder or was it some other reason? It doesn't bother me, I'll just make a mod that changes them back since I like the authenticity it gives, I'm just wondering.

Quote from: Bendigeidfran on August 26, 2016, 07:59:12 AM
No issues thus far, I'm just curious, what prompted the renaming of the drugs? Was there some kind of backlash about them in the game that features slavery and mass-murder or was it some other reason? It doesn't bother me, I'll just make a mod that changes them back since I like the authenticity it gives, I'm just wondering.

There were a few stoners complaining to high heaven about how the leafs weren't the useful part of the plant, and how it needed to be changed to the buds for accuracy and immersion. I can only assume that it's a smarter way to end that argument than what I would've done, which is to tell them to FO. Besides, there has been a number of people complaining about drug-use being portrayed in this good and wholesome family-oriented game, and how it 'totally ruined it'. Changing the names seem like the easier solution, than to take part in that ever-lasting argument.
This is of course, just an assumption, but I think it's likely to hold up.

A15 is feeling really good so far.  The extended brewing mechanic feels especially great.  What would be really nice is having a new limit instruction alongside "Do X times", "Do forever", "Do until you have X" called something like "Do until fermenting barrels are full", so far I've had to manually suspend and unsuspend the task whenever my barrels are full.  Of course, I may be missing something.

>  Changing the names seem like the easier solution,

I strongly agree with this. The American people are odd. We accept violence as not serious, generally, as a pretext for a story, but sex and drugs are forbidden. It's silly and irrational, but one isn't going to win the battle of attempting to rationalize the American people.

Quote from: CannibarRechter on August 26, 2016, 08:44:27 AM
>  Changing the names seem like the easier solution,

I strongly agree with this. The American people are odd. We accept violence as not serious, generally, as a pretext for a story, but sex and drugs are forbidden. It's silly and irrational, but one isn't going to win the battle of attempting to rationalize the American people.

Nothing to do with american people at all. Most nations have the same issues. And don't "We american people".

Anyway, my rationalization of the issue is MUCH simpler.
- Violence is glorified. Everyone loves old and new warrior heroes of myth, from the Greeks of legends and even earlier to current "war heroes". Also, "successful", or surviving civilizations are those that beat up the others.
- Sex is private. I personally don't know why, but... there is next to no civilization that does not shun / shame sex in the "public sphere", even if it glorifies sex in "private". Which basically leads to most religions / people shun upon sex in the "public sphere". Even if it's a part of the world that always exists and always will.
- Drugs are mostly illegal in most of the world for a reason. Drugs that ain't illegal are called medecine and are reglemented. As a whole, illegal drugs (and quite a lot of the "reglemented ones") are bad ideas, only useful in specific uses at best.

Therefore the violence is ok, sex is bad, drug is bad. Another simpler rationalization I have is that people in charge, and civilization that last basically NEED some level of "violence is ok". Peaceful resistance is nice on paper... but does not work so well when armies of murderers try to kill you.


Basically I can't understand people that put drugs & violence & sex on the same level. It's not.


Games in general, changing the drug names allows:
- more freedom in effects,
- removal of all idiotic endless discussions of "people" that try to force their "drugs's bad mkay" or "drugs're fun mkay ?" agendas on unrelated topics => more time on the real game. Also there is generally some guy / gal that creates a mod with the "real" names in the first days after release.
- 3000 years ago druggies were probably eating mushrooms and munching leaves. This game is in 5500. It's not immersion-breaking to imagine that either the name of the plants changed (as most drugs tend to have many, many names) or that basically some better products have been found / manufactured (hence the new names).

Basically there are downsides to leaving the "real" names, none to remove them.

Most with an issue with the re-naming also neglect to appreciate that many people carry psychological baggage with their own, relatable drug histories. People with PTSD don't play with guns, people who've recovered from addictions don't play with drugs. And while this game has a lot of gratuitous violence, which could be chalked up to cultural attitudes towards firearms and violence, it's not as obvious when a game includes casual drug use, abuse, addiction, mental collapse and domestic violence as a result of withdrawal, etc, etc.

Anyway, there's no easy solution to complex issues like these, which is why it's better to avoid unnecessary triggering for the sake of assuming it's some irrational cultural bias that people need to 'get over'.

Edit: I don't want to use the word 'triggered' because it's a dog whistle for a certain demographic of children, but it fits in this context as that's the subject.

Played a full game though on the aug 25th build using "Learn to Play"; my feedback as a player who's got a couple games under his belt:

1) I'm not a new player anymore, but I'm also not extremely experienced.  While I already knew the stuff the tutorial teaches, it was well presented and helpful - it would have been a godsend in my first game.  I liked the system a lot.  I had however one (very minor) issue with how mine worked.  When it asked me to build a sandbag bunker, it gave a specific place to build it.  That was great; except it was actually unusable because there were trees and chunks in the places my troops would have needed to stand to actually use it when the raider attacked. 

Perhaps going into detail on how standing behind a chunk/tree behind a sandbag isn't ideal due to the amount of information you need to convey (you're getting the chunk/tree's cover bonus instead of the sandbag.)  Also, there's some confusion with it highlighting the places to stand (little circles) during the raider attack in spots where you can't actually stand because they're occupied by those objects. 

A good solution, IMHO, is at game start ensuring the "standing spots" inside where the game is going to want you to build the sandbag bunker are clear and empty.

2) I would like to see the Learning system have a little more detail in other topics, for example "Building a Freezer", "Soil Types for Farming", "Generating Power", etc.  This can wait, though, maybe grow the system going forward?   Regardless, it's a great system.

3) This may well be wholly an artifact of choosing Randy Random and Rough, but I went three full seasons without a single trader stopping by.  The Learning System took the time to tell me that being allied with factions will increase the odds of them sending traders, but did not tell me what sort of actions could increase my standing with a faction.  I know releasing prisoners can help, but I had several friendly factions (are they allied?  I don't know; I had green numbers) and those factions would very frequently send people "passing through" (roughly 8 times over the 3 seasons), but I couldn't interact with them - really, I should be able to chat them up as they pass by or something? 

4) I recruited a prisoner who turned out to have a GoJuice addiction and Smokeleaf dependency.  What's the difference between an addiction and a dependency?  I couldn't find this information anywhere in game.  Said prisoner had a few doses of each in his inventory, so I elected to supply him with one while he kicked the habit of the other to avoid truly massive mood debuffs, which seemed practical, though he hadn't fully kicked the GoJuice addiction before everything went south (in true Randy Random style).  It was a great touch, though; I love that you can choose to never use drugs, but you may well need to make them yourself if you want to recruit some pirates and such which are traditionally an easy source of colonists.  Good stuff.

5) Smokeleaf looks to be a pretty reasonable way to help control moods in the early game before you've got a really nice colony set up; being able to lead into binging and addiction and potential withdrawl if you can't sustain it is a great balancing factor that leads to great stories.  Bravo!

Quote from: Wintersdark on August 26, 2016, 12:20:32 PM
4) I recruited a prisoner who turned out to have a GoJuice addiction and Smokeleaf dependency.  What's the difference between an addiction and a dependency?

Technically I don't think there is a difference. You can not get physically addicted (just mentally dependant) on cannabis, which is why the phrasing is different.

Bug: When rescuing an escape pod survivor, there are actually two "medicine" tabs, one under Guest and the other under Health. The one under Guest was ignored when I selected  "Herbal medicine or worse" as I didn't want my doc to waste glitterworld medicine on a stranger. I had to select Health, then "Herbal medicine or worse". The Guest tab is either redundant or non-functional (at least for the medicine).

Ambigore: Isn't the "Guest" tab from the Hospitality mod?

Is there a way to get the unstable branch without having steam?  Last time I tried to buy this game on steam it choked during download and crashed.

Thanks for the feedback everyone! I've already integrated some of it and am now pushing a new release candidate.

Please update and tell me what you think all around!

For targeted testing, I'm really interested in how the drug system works. Are there subtle bugs in the AI where they do the wrong thing in some situations? Is the economy balanced? Is it balanced overall? Tell me!

Change list

38a4938 Factions now refuse to send traders or military aid when it's too hot or too cold.
aaa6742 Train burning drugs at the campfire with a popup appears when the first drug spawns.
a9effa0 Tutorial now deletes trees and chunks on player's cover spots.
79f2d38 Addicts carry more drugs.
c49ec77 Fix: Colonists don't look in their inventory for joy or need-satisfying drugs.
d84864e Fix: CanUseIngestItem totally ignored by the code, leads to various bugs.
eba35d4 More robust against certain types of AI errors.
09c5faa Fix: Tribal traders often won't buy high tech things (e.g. yayo).
86d62ea Pirates are now Spacer tech level again so they can use drop pods and luciferium.
45fc4b4 Changed milk to RawTasty. Some drug rebalance.
b20a5dc Rearming traps now takes 150% as long.
af920ce Milk's tastesRaw is now false.
392bf93 Insect corpses are now in their own ThingCategory.
cfee7e0 Smokeleaf joint price is now 150%, mood gain is now 15. Increased smokeleaf speed production. There are now more smokeleaf leaves yielded per plant.
1276158 WanderOwnRoom mental state now lasts 2x as long.
d754b37 "high on Smokeleaf" -> "high on smokeleaf", "high on WakeUp" -> "high on wake-up"

New build breaks previous saves.
Just a heads up.

I saw some posters mention how they would avoid the chemical interest/fascination trait and thought I would add my thoughts/experience to that topic before I begin my next playthrough.

As I mentioned briefly in the last post, during my latest playthrough I set a Forced Trait: Chemical Interest to all characters 50%, with 4/5 starting colonists with it and the last one being a teetotaler. With this setup I was definitely having a contrasting experience.

My teetotaler was the saddest of the bunch! Through all the hardships AND the good times, my poor Teetotaler was consistently the worst off mood wise. Some of the Chemical Interest pawns I had also had some pretty harsh traits like neurotic, volatile, nervous etc yet they were still usually quite well off, although admittedly there were some touch and go points where I had to micromanage their drug/joy/work times but overall I only had what felt like a handful of mental breaks with them, whereas the teetotaler was 90% useless from needing so much joy to compensate for the occasional animal death/filth and just generally not having a well setup base-at the time. Keep in mind I had pretty much all the drugs and beer available throughout, so it wasn't like any one drug was doing all the mood boosting.

The downsides of Chemical interest are far easier to manage than the negatives of teetotaler, let's compare briefly
Teetotaler negatives:
-unable to do drugs for joy/mood, thereby making each debuff is more significant.
-unable to do drugs for performance increase, making them less effective in bursts for such things like construction/crafting/hauling/etc
Doesn't sound like much does it, but in actual play(on Rough Cassandra) these inabilities really set them back in terms of work output and mood management

Chemical Interest negatives:
-slightly higher use of drugs for joy purposes, this requires a higher drug supply/sustain
-joints use for joy, as well as mood, increase food consumption a decent amount as well as lower productivity via consciousness and move speed
-drug/beer use whenever they feel like it ie binges and hangovers, this leads to times when you'll schedule work and be stuck waiting for it to complete when you otherwise wouldn't need to with a non Ch.In. pawn
-more drugs/beer required to sustain addictions, productivity and mood.

Overall I think the negatives are pretty even when you think about them in the context of a more average playthrough. Which mine was not, being that I was focusing largely on the drug policy and drug use overall. Although personally I would be playing mostly the same way if it were just a normal a15 official.
I haven't yet played with any Chemical Fascination trait pawns so I'm not sure how much more extreme they are compared to Chemical Interest. I'll probably avoid those just to be safe, until someone skilled enough tempts me haha.

I was thinking it would be neat to be able to force drugs onto a teetotaler but inflict a heavy long term mood debuff so it would be possible to boost their performance, but not mood, for brief emergencies but that's likely just my bias showing haha.

I'll be doing a more normal playthrough this next run so i'll try to grab one pawn of each trait if possible and see how they do in a less...medicated scenario. Also, starting without drugs on hand will allow me a better perspective of the progression/economy. I can't even tell you how useful drugs are during early game when there's filth and chunks everywhere, little space/comfort/joy and you just want everything done fast!

So far the drug system has added alot to my games and i'm enjoying what feels like a new layer to the mood system and growing/trade economy. Not sure if you have plans to expand on the system some day or what but even as is on the 0.15.1274 version, with all my rest micromanaging lol, I've been having alot of fun so as always thanks Tynan and keep on truckin.

Cheers PK

edit awwww yea a new version, just on time, was literally setting up my next scenario <3
I was mainly trying a top-down approach for the drug system last run, this time I will try to focus on watching individual AI a bit more, the use for joy trigger especially seemed worth checking out, not sure exactly how that works as I was mostly dosing them manually.

Quote from: Tynan on August 26, 2016, 03:18:43 PMFor targeted testing, I'm really interested in how the drug system works. Are there subtle bugs in the AI where they do the wrong thing in some situations? Is the economy balanced? Is it balanced overall? Tell me!

Well, after some thought... now I wonder if meals are overpriced. A meal sells for twice as much as a joint, despite being crafted nearly the same way (vegetables grown get processed). I suppose it all depends on potato yield vs smokeleaf yield... I'll have to pay closer attention to that.

I suppose the big question is, how much money do you want the colonists to make off a 5x5 field for a season?

Meals cost more because they spoil fast, and must be refrigerated/frozen. Drugs you can pretty much leave anywhere and I am not sure they even decay when open to the sky.

please make turrets undeployable.
with the improved raider sapper machanic it is kinda stupid to just re-arrange your "killbox" that easy.

Quote from: Grishnerf on August 26, 2016, 04:40:49 PM
please make turrets undeployable.
with the improved raider sapper machanic it is kinda stupid to just re-arrange your "killbox" that easy.

I barely have time to get my colonists into firing position during a raid, much less play musical turrets....

Quote from: NolanSyKinsley on August 26, 2016, 05:13:43 PM

Quote from: Grishnerf on August 26, 2016, 04:40:49 PM
please make turrets undeployable.
with the improved raider sapper machanic it is kinda stupid to just re-arrange your "killbox" that easy.

I barely have time to get my colonists into firing position during a raid, much less play musical turrets....

depends on the mapsize and if you instant pause the game on raid alert,
you should have plenty of time to setup.
of course it wont always work.
but i think it is kinda cheap to just switch your turrets around where you need them.

Hmmmm; maybe bug encountered.  Not sure how to get logs as I can't find any other than output_log.txt in ~/RimWorld/RimWorldWin_Data (will search around after posting this). 

Anyways, had a drop pod crash, converted a bed to a Prisoner Bed and captured him.  He was placed in the bed which was flagged For Prisoners and Medical; treated and recovered.  After he recovered, he refused to use the bed (still  flagged For Prisoners and Medical) and instead slept on the floor.  This persisted until I put a new bed in the room and flagged it For Prisoners (only).  Sadly, it didn't occur to me to just turn off the medical flag - I've never had to do that in the past.

It was really wierd, though, to have him sleep on the floor beside the Prisoner flagged bed he had just gotten up from.

I have not yet updated to the latest build, as the previous post said it was not save compatible - running the build from last night.

---

In unrelated but more asked for feedback; drugs!

I'd figured I'd ultimately stick to a pretty drug free approach, as they seem on first blush to be more problematic than useful - I normally have no issues with mood management.  However, my first extra settler in this game had "Very Neurotic", "Volatile", and (IIRC) "Hard Worker" - he's a excellent worker, very fast, a gold mine really... but even when what would be Joyful for someone else, he's got minor mental break warnings.

Now I just keep him high all the time, and he's perfectly settled and happy. 

I love this; how easy it is to justify starting production.

Quote from: Grishnerf on August 26, 2016, 05:38:19 PM
depends on the mapsize and if you pause the game on raid alert.
you should have plenty of time. of course it wont always work.
but i think it is kinda cheap to just Switch your turrets around where you Need them.

I guess if you're on a huge map, or a really snowy one maybe? 

I know on default sizes, there's no way you'd have time to do that unless they're waiting and preparing... and if so?  That's the whole point.

I'd much rather turrets remain movable.  In normal play at generally default settings it's not exploitable, but it's nice to be able to change your defenses if they don't work as planned.  I'd hate to see this removed.

Quote from: Wintersdark on August 26, 2016, 05:38:47 PM
Hmmmm; maybe bug encountered.  Not sure how to get logs as I can't find any other than output_log.txt in ~/RimWorld/RimWorldWin_Data (will search around after posting this). 

Anyways, had a drop pod crash, converted a bed to a Prisoner Bed and captured him.  He was placed in the bed which was flagged For Prisoners and Medical; treated and recovered.  After he recovered, he refused to use the bed (still  flagged For Prisoners and Medical) and instead slept on the floor.  This persisted until I put a new bed in the room and flagged it For Prisoners (only).  Sadly, it didn't occur to me to just turn off the medical flag - I've never had to do that in the past.

It was really wierd, though, to have him sleep on the floor beside the Prisoner flagged bed he had just gotten up from.

I have not yet updated to the latest build, as the previous post said it was not save compatible - running the build from last night.

---

In unrelated but more asked for feedback; drugs!

I'd figured I'd ultimately stick to a pretty drug free approach, as they seem on first blush to be more problematic than useful - I normally have no issues with mood management.  However, my first extra settler in this game had "Very Neurotic", "Volatile", and (IIRC) "Hard Worker" - he's a excellent worker, very fast, a gold mine really... but even when what would be Joyful for someone else, he's got minor mental break warnings.

Now I just keep him high all the time, and he's perfectly settled and happy. 

I love this; how easy it is to justify starting production.

Prisoner beds marked for medical will only be used for medical purposes, they need both medical beds and normal beds.

New build is up with some fixes. Mainly to: raiders use drop pods way too often.

Alright, so I've been running colonies with 2-3 addictions starting out, and heavily rationing their drugs by putting them in the Stockpile, setting their policy to No Drugs, and letting them go into Withdrawal until I need them in top form (like when a raid occurs). I've done this for about 5-10 days and not once have they broken policy and stolen/binged on their drugs, which I store right next to the meals. Is this working as intended? Or should it be harder to ration their drugs while they're in withdrawal?

Well they'll only have binges due to mood, so if you keep them happy enough, they should be okay.

Quote from: Tynan on August 26, 2016, 08:32:53 PM
Well they'll only have binges due to mood, so if you keep them happy enough, they should be okay.

Hrm... this is during the early days of the colony when I don't even have tables. At this rate, it would take pain or some allied deaths to get them binging.

Does the difficulty level apply any modifiers to their base Mood Level?

Time to potentially ruin something before it's even actually out.

For the current unstable of Alpha 15, you can summon as many traders from a single faction that you want, at the same time -- which even though they show up a few days later, they still all show up at exactly the same time.

So you can effectively call in 10+ traders, use a single psychic animal pulser (or another ingenious way to kill all the gear carriers at the same time), and make an insanely huge profit relative to the small 600 silver spent per trader summon, at only the cost of a single 'bad will'.

aaa6742 Train burning drugs at the campfire with a popup appears when the first drug spawns.

See this here? This is word salad.

Quote from: DariusWolfe on August 26, 2016, 01:12:51 PM
Ambigore: Isn't the "Guest" tab from the Hospitality mod?

Nah, I'm not running any mods. The Guest tab appears if you rescue an escape pod survivor.

Quote from: OFWG on August 27, 2016, 12:34:12 AM

Code Select Expand

aaa6742 Train burning drugs at the campfire with a popup appears when the first drug spawns.

See this here? This is word salad.

But don't they hate you if you let their guys get killed? Not sure normal people would take it that far,unless they are trying to break the game. I guess its better to be found out now then later when its a cheap exploit no one tells the devs...

Quote from: OFWG on August 27, 2016, 12:34:12 AM

Code Select Expand

aaa6742 Train burning drugs at the campfire with a popup appears when the first drug spawns.

See this here? This is word salad.

Here, let me fix that for you. "Train burning drugs at the campfire with a popup that appears when the first drugs appear on the map."

Decided to try Beer.  Build three casks in my brewing room (which has three coolers keeping it no higher than 23C), but during a heat wave when said room did not exceed 23-24C (3 coolers, 9x11 room counting the walls) still the wort "spoiled due to high temperature".

What do I need to do to prevent this, or is it a bug?  Will the wort spoilt that fast if the room momentarily spikes up then the coolers pull it right back down again?  I was monitoring it pretty closely and never noticed it above 24, but maybe I missed something.  Happened inside the second day of having the casks filled.

If it's THAT sensitive; maybe this can be tuned?  So it takes, say, an hour at high temp as opposed to a split second?  Very frustrating to lose an entire crop this way :(

Having issues with pawns eating raw potato or corn instead of the simple meals in the same room.  The freezer is 15x15 mostly filled with animal corpses and stacks of veg but only a single stack of simple meals as I haven't gotten a decent cook yet.  Depending on where they are they often route to the raw food instead of the cooked meals and it's not because another pawn has a lock on the stack of meals as everyone else was sleeping (Malaria!).

Is their search radius that small now that they won't see a stack of meals 14 spots away in the next room?  Build 1277

Quote from: malloc on August 27, 2016, 01:05:26 PM
Having issues with pawns eating raw potato or corn instead of the simple meals in the same room.  The freezer is 15x15 mostly filled with animal corpses and stacks of veg but only a single stack of simple meals as I haven't gotten a decent cook yet.  Depending on where they are they often route to the raw food instead of the cooked meals and it's not because another pawn has a lock on the stack of meals as everyone else was sleeping (Malaria!).

Is their search radius that small now that they won't see a stack of meals 14 spots away in the next room?  Build 1277

Make a high priority stockpile next to the entrance of your freezer so the meals are the first thing they path to.

Quote from: malloc on August 27, 2016, 01:05:26 PM
Having issues with pawns eating raw potato or corn instead of the simple meals in the same room.  The freezer is 15x15 mostly filled with animal corpses and stacks of veg but only a single stack of simple meals as I haven't gotten a decent cook yet.  Depending on where they are they often route to the raw food instead of the cooked meals and it's not because another pawn has a lock on the stack of meals as everyone else was sleeping (Malaria!).

Is their search radius that small now that they won't see a stack of meals 14 spots away in the next room?  Build 1277

They'll prefer meals if they care. If they're ascetic, they won't care.

Quote from: Wintersdark on August 27, 2016, 06:13:06 AM
Decided to try Beer.  Build three casks in my brewing room (which has three coolers keeping it no higher than 23C), but during a heat wave when said room did not exceed 23-24C (3 coolers, 9x11 room counting the walls) still the wort "spoiled due to high temperature".

What do I need to do to prevent this, or is it a bug?  Will the wort spoilt that fast if the room momentarily spikes up then the coolers pull it right back down again?  I was monitoring it pretty closely and never noticed it above 24, but maybe I missed something.  Happened inside the second day of having the casks filled.

If it's THAT sensitive; maybe this can be tuned?  So it takes, say, an hour at high temp as opposed to a split second?  Very frustrating to lose an entire crop this way :(

The wort does spoil instantly, I'm afraid. In future I could add some delay to that. Probably should.

Not sure if it's due to raiders being Spacer-tech again, but 25 days into my colony, one of their raids (2 pistols, 1 shotgun, 1 incindiary launcher) dropped 4 Luciferium. Luckily I'm not playing Permadeath, so I'm going to branch off a save and see what happens when I get half my colony hooked on Luciferium. Oh, and whether Luciferium & Go-Juice stack.

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 27, 2016, 02:32:57 PM
Not sure if it's due to raiders being Spacer-tech again, but 25 days into my colony, one of their raids (2 pistols, 1 shotgun, 1 incindiary launcher) dropped 4 Luciferium. Luckily I'm not playing Permadeath, so I'm going to branch off a save and see what happens when I get half my colony hooked on Luciferium. Oh, and whether Luciferium & Go-Juice stack.

Definitely intentional. I'd start with one colonist though :)

Quote from: Tynan on August 27, 2016, 02:37:00 PM

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 27, 2016, 02:32:57 PM
Not sure if it's due to raiders being Spacer-tech again, but 25 days into my colony, one of their raids (2 pistols, 1 shotgun, 1 incindiary launcher) dropped 4 Luciferium. Luckily I'm not playing Permadeath, so I'm going to branch off a save and see what happens when I get half my colony hooked on Luciferium. Oh, and whether Luciferium & Go-Juice stack.

Definitely intentional. I'd start with one colonist though :)

Nah, multiple colonists. As I said, I'm branching off this save; I'll run this version into the ground and then return to the actual version, where I have the sense to keep it locked up until I can sell it.

Quote from: Tynan on August 27, 2016, 02:03:57 PM
The wort does spoil instantly, I'm afraid. In future I could add some delay to that. Probably should.

Yeah - I can see it spoiling from high temp, absolutely, but the way the temperature system works... Maybe have a hitpoint total where temps out of range do damage?  So you can see in advance if it's too hot/cold, and have a (very small) amount of time to try to save it rather than a single door opening and closing even with massive AC control just wrecking stuff.

I mean, in the future I'll have a well airlocked brewing room, but it adds a tremendous amount of complexity to an already fairly complex process that's ultimately useful but double edged.  As it stands now, it makes the whole thing seem extremely risky vs. just making joints.

Smokeleaf has its own downsides. Easier to make but more addictive, more performance hit.

They might be a bit imba, though, you're right. I'll be watching in A15. It's a bit late to change this now though.

Quote from: Wintersdark on August 27, 2016, 06:13:06 AM
Decided to try Beer.  Build three casks in my brewing room (which has three coolers keeping it no higher than 23C), but during a heat wave when said room did not exceed 23-24C (3 coolers, 9x11 room counting the walls) still the wort "spoiled due to high temperature".

The way I did it to protect the brewing process was to put the fermenting barrels into my kitchen design. For logistic reasons I put the kitchen next to one of the freezer rooms and this make the kitchen rather cold under default temperatures, so much so that I put a heater in the room to prevent it from going under 10 C. During heat waves I simply open up the doors to the freezer to keep the kitchen under +30 C, usually it sits at a cozy 15-20 C under those conditions (it does affect the "freezer" negatively tho, but it fails to maintain freezing temps during heat waves even without the door being open, so I decided I don't care about it). I'm playing in an arid region with temps of 30 C being common outside heat waves. It helps to isolate your freezer room with double layer walls though.

Though I really wish there was some walls more specialized for isolating against temperature, building double walls doesn't look too good and one still have to use A LOT of coolers even for a "medium" 11x13 sized freezer in hot regions. Besides, building double thick walls is something I wouldn't known unless I frequented these forums.

Quote from: ShadowTani on August 27, 2016, 04:45:47 PM
Though I really wish there was some walls more specialized for isolating against temperature, building double walls doesn't look too good and one still have to use A LOT of coolers even for a "medium" 11x13 sized freezer in hot regions. Besides, building double thick walls is something I wouldn't known unless I frequented these forums.

Hrm, constructing Insulated Walls from Steel is a good idea.

Hey Tynan, how long until the final Alpha 15 release is pushed out?

Quote from: mattocaster6 on August 27, 2016, 04:55:44 PM
Hey Tynan, how long until the final Alpha 15 release is pushed out?

Soon™

(in all seriousness he probably doesn't even know other than soon. I believe he said this is a release candidate, so waiting on feedback and making sure it is bug free, then it will be released.)

Let's try to focus on specific build feedback please, this isn't an open-ended suggestions thread. Thanks.

Well, insulated walls aside, learning about how double layer walls can isolate against temperatures I think should at least go into the Learning Helper topics somehow - like being popped up when placing a cooler or heater the first time. It could be mentioned in the "Spoilage and freezers" subject too I guess, but it seems to be relevant for both cold and hot temperature management and not just freezers.

Because really, I didn't know about the double layer wall solution at all until just some days ago, and it made a huge difference when I partially implemented it in my colony design. I was too busy and inactive on the forums during the time when the coolers got introduced so missed that functionality entirely when I started playing again, thus I ended up with a lot of frustration with maintaining room temperatures that I'm sure new players and players not active on the forums is going to get simply because there's no way to know about that inside the game (as I'm aware about at least).

I'm sorry I didn't formulate it as proper A15 feedback to begin with as it got mixed up in trying to help the other guy with his temperature management.

I feel like smokeleaf is pretty balanced already for me since the movement penalty makes all of it's users less efficient at doing stuff, its basically just a mood medication for me. Perhaps if it still needs to be balanced a debuff to manipulation could be done? (weed would make you less precise manipulating things)

Is it safe at this point to start a new game in this unstable branch without the worry of any more save breaking patches?

Not sure if this is because of the unstable version (15.1277), but I had a jailbreak happen and after incapacitating the pawn I could only warden them (chat/talk) not re capture them or haul them back to bed.

So they just died off. I have a save of them incapacitated and unable to help them if you like.

I also just realized you updated to 15.1278, so not sure if you want the save now or not.

EDIT: here's the save anyway
https://mega.nz/#!kRhyQDwT!hXemGBGaszAq6XVwQ6jZR8ECVvB_2bjmY--wV1ZQwjY

Quote from: mcgnarman on August 27, 2016, 07:27:11 PM
Not sure if this is because of the unstable version (15.1277), but I had a jailbreak happen and after incapacitating the pawn I could only warden them (chat/talk) not re capture them or haul them back to bed.

Haven't checked the save but likely caused by not rebuilding the door to the cell.

Quote from: mcgnarman on August 27, 2016, 07:27:11 PM
Not sure if this is because of the unstable version (15.1277), but I had a jailbreak happen and after incapacitating the pawn I could only warden them (chat/talk) not re capture them or haul them back to bed.

So they just died off. I have a save of them incapacitated and unable to help them if you like.

I also just realized you updated to 15.1278, so not sure if you want the save now or not.

EDIT: here's the save anyway
https://mega.nz/#!kRhyQDwT!hXemGBGaszAq6XVwQ6jZR8ECVvB_2bjmY--wV1ZQwjY

I'm gonna look into this.

Quote from: kamenoitte on August 27, 2016, 08:49:11 PM

Quote from: mcgnarman on August 27, 2016, 07:27:11 PM
Not sure if this is because of the unstable version (15.1277), but I had a jailbreak happen and after incapacitating the pawn I could only warden them (chat/talk) not re capture them or haul them back to bed.

Haven't checked the save but likely caused by not rebuilding the door to the cell.

The door wasn't broken down though. It was still physically there, as if they "picked the lock" or something. Unless I missed something where my colonists fixed something when I wasn't looking.

Nah it's a bug, I'm fixing it. Pushing build in a few.

Oh cool, glad to help!

Fixed build is up.

Hey I'd like to pitch in with the feedback on the experimental branch

Deep Mining:
1) Scanner and drills don't have a toggle power like all other electronics, which seems unintentional to me.
2) Some resources have spawned under deep water in my temperate forest map, which seems kind of pointless right now.
3) Drills use the miner skill, but don't increase it. My miners get worse and worse at drilling the longer they do it.
4) Drills can't be moved - maybe that's a balance thing, but it's a little annoying to deconstruct a drill just to move it a square over and get the last resource in an underground section. If you allow redeployment, maybe jack up the price a bunch. If nothing else, maybe an alert that says a drill has been exhausted, since it's not obvious when one's finished.
5) Drills are being prioritized after mining (If you have a mining task anywhere on the map they'll do that first). Pretty sure that's how you designed it but if I want 1 guy to drill while others mine I have to force him. It'd be nice if maybe they prioritized it like it was a regular mining task (by distance or whatever the algorithm for that is) or some kind of sub task priority where you can say what types of a skill you want to do in what order.
6) Scanners use an enormous amount of power (which is fine) but it kind of blindsides you, and there's no reason it should be a secret. It'd be nice if the power required for all objects was displayed in the tooltip or description so you know how much you need. I'd even go as far as showing the max power that can be generated from turbines, panels, etc. to help newer people plan out their power grids.
7) Just an opinion, but when you mentioned deep mining as a way to offset resource exhaustion late game I thought it'd be more like an infinite underground source you build on (Like the steam vents), and extract very slowly - personally I'd enjoy that more, and it would also solve the issue of moving all the drills around, because it would be a permanent fixture.

Drugs:
1) The "One Drink a Day" drug policy has smokeleaf and alcohol on for joy as well. This kind of negates the purpose of the policy, since they will drink multiple times per day if they need it, and also use smokeleaf.
Other than that, the drug system seems to be working pretty well for me.

General:
1) You mentioned that you debuffed corn - it seems eating it raw now makes people unhappy. If that's the case, the description of corn needs to be updated since it clearly states people enjoy eating it raw.
2) Brewing uses the cooking skill, and it's prioritized before butchering. I think butchering should come first; my cook runs out of meat and instead of chopping up more, he goes to brew beer while the people starve.
3) Brewing table is not affected by tool cabinets (Not sure if that was intentional or not, but it is a workbench; it seems like it should be)

Overall I love the new additions with this version, and frankly just love the game in general

Thanks Aaron, very useful notes!

Brewing table shouldn't need a tool bench, that seems more like suggestion then feedback its a brewing table what tools are you gonna have to increase the speed? At least a tool chest near the cooking station that make sense you may need a different pan, or to sharpen you knife at the butcher table form time to time. But brewing that is what putting it in a big pot and stirring it... What we need a toolbox with spare spoons?

That is just my two sense, but rest is pretty spot on stuff.

Quote from: Zalzany on August 28, 2016, 01:11:44 AM
Brewing table shouldn't need a tool bench, that seems more like suggestion then feedback its a brewing table what tools are you gonna have to increase the speed? At least a tool chest near the cooking station that make sense you may need a different pan, or to sharpen you knife at the butcher table form time to time. But brewing that is what putting it in a big pot and stirring it... What we need a toolbox with spare spoons?

That is just my two sense, but rest is pretty spot on stuff.

Brewing requires a LOT more than just "a big pot and stirring it". Beside that point, the game is not meant to 100% reflect reality, and the tool stations are just a way to speed things up a little bit by sinking a few resources into it. It isn't really meant to be logical, or based on reality, it is just meant to lighten up the workload a little as you progress.

The tool box contains automated stirrers.

This reminds me of a similar peeve I had with drugmaking: at times it felt like too many tasks were grouped under Crafting, and I was having difficulty getting colonists to prioritize them the way I wanted without manually suspending jobs. I suspect that'll be worked on in a broader update polishing the work mechanics, though.

Yeah, I think I might need a new work type for group together brewing and drug making.

I hate adding new work types, though.

Quote from: Tynan on August 28, 2016, 02:22:46 AM
Yeah, I think I might need a new work type for group together brewing and drug making.

I hate adding new work types, though.

Personally, I would leave brewing and joint-making under Crafting, and put making other drugs under Medical/Doctor.

Also, doing a bit of extreme testing with the Custom Scenario editor. Found 2 things:

• If you give a colonist every addiction besides luciferium (smokeweed, psychoid, beer, wake-up, go-juice), they will immediately die from consciousness loss the moment they go into withdrawal on every one.
• If you force an addiction in a Custom Scenario, they don't crashland with any of that drug in their inventory.

Also, I suspect this is known, but rather vexing for Scenario Editors: you currently can't build a scenario with any exclusive traits, even if the combination should technically work. For example, these are scenario parameters the game will (currently) refuse to let you set:

• Chemical Fascination for 40% of PCs + Teetotaler for 0% of PCs
• Teetotaler for 100% of PCs + Chemical Fascination for 100% of NPCs

It would be great if, for mutually-exclusive traits, the Scenario Editor only threw back an error if their sum % total for either PCs or NPCs was >100%.

1 and 2 are both totally intentional.

The other one - eh, I see what you're saying but what you're describing is actually a new algorithm that's a lot more in-depth than "a random % get the trait". Consider what happens with a network of traits with different dependencies, with 4 or 5 of them on the list. The solution could be very tricky. Unlikely to be added soon, being honest.

i love this update but can you make trader come more often than this. i know u already buff this. but i still feel  have to wait trader for a long time

Quote from: Tynan on August 27, 2016, 01:53:25 PM

Quote from: malloc on August 27, 2016, 01:05:26 PM
Having issues with pawns eating raw potato or corn instead of the simple meals in the same room.  The freezer is 15x15 mostly filled with animal corpses and stacks of veg but only a single stack of simple meals as I haven't gotten a decent cook yet.  Depending on where they are they often route to the raw food instead of the cooked meals and it's not because another pawn has a lock on the stack of meals as everyone else was sleeping (Malaria!).

Is their search radius that small now that they won't see a stack of meals 14 spots away in the next room?  Build 1277

They'll prefer meals if they care. If they're ascetic, they won't care.

It's not an ascetic issue as zero of my colonists are ascetic.  It's looks very much like a search radius issue as even the cook will drop meat in the freezer after butchering and immediately take some to eat ignoring the three stacks of simple meals in the same room.  Doctors were also trying to feed patients with raw veg when meals existed even though neither the doctor nor patient were ascetic.

There is some problem with colinists picking up raw food instead of meals for eating or feeding, they are not ascetic or anything, just seem lazy to walk few more steps?

Quote from: drunetovich on August 28, 2016, 06:01:27 AM
There is some problem with colinists picking up raw food instead of meals for eating or feeding, they are not ascetic or anything, just seem lazy to walk few more steps?

Similarly when they decide the table is just TOO FAR AWAY and eat their meals standing up 3 tiles away from it...

Quote from: Tynan on August 28, 2016, 02:22:46 AM
Yeah, I think I might need a new work type for group together brewing and drug making.

I hate adding new work types, though.

(wishlist) or adding a screen where the player can priorize and organize "subtasks" as he wishes ?


About the current alpha, when asking for multiple caravans while paused, they arrive at the exact same moment. I think it would be better if the timing was more random =).

Currently I'm itching to call 10 caravan at the same time and slaughter them at once.

I'm also had problems with prioritizing work for all the things that are mining/crafting related.

Very difficult to get pawns to reliably do one work or another, or controlling who does smelting and who does clothmaking. I'd suggest splitting these into different skills and works (like in DF... weaving is not the same as working a forge).

Also, I'd probably take another DF tip and only allow the building of doors if the door is touching a wall on one side. No more "all door" designs for easy killboxes/trap mazes and rooms.. It's very effecient to build a fort from doors, but it just doesn't seem "as intended"

Quote from: Lightzy on August 28, 2016, 09:13:36 AMVery difficult to get pawns to reliably do one work or another, or controlling who does smelting and who does clothmaking. I'd suggest splitting these into different skills and works (like in DF... weaving is not the same as working a forge).

Uh, but you can already give tailoring/smithing/crafting different priorities since a long time...?

Quote from: NolanSyKinsley on August 18, 2016, 01:44:52 AM
Hunters are hunting sleeping animals now. If I remember correctly they used to not hunt any sleeping animals.

Perhaps the sleeping mad animal fix changed something?

Speaking of "Sleeping animals" Do manhunters wake up when they turn "Mad"?
In A14, they'd just keep on sleeping if the animal that is supposed to turn "Mad" is sleeping.
I think that the reason this occurs is because, the animal is on the ground, and when a manhunter gets Incapicapted, they lose their manhunter mental break.

Quote from: kasnavada on August 28, 2016, 09:10:25 AM

Quote from: Tynan on August 28, 2016, 02:22:46 AM
Yeah, I think I might need a new work type for group together brewing and drug making.

I hate adding new work types, though.

(wishlist) or adding a screen where the player can priorize and organize "subtasks" as he wishes ?


About the current alpha, when asking for multiple caravans while paused, they arrive at the exact same moment. I think it would be better if the timing was more random =).

Currently I'm itching to call 10 caravan at the same time and slaughter them at once.

It would probably be easier to just put in a cooldown between calling in caravans from the same faction. (For example, after calling in one caravan from an Outsider town, you have to wait 3 days to call in another caravan from that same town.)

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 28, 2016, 10:17:11 AM

Quote from: kasnavada on August 28, 2016, 09:10:25 AM
About the current alpha, when asking for multiple caravans while paused, they arrive at the exact same moment. I think it would be better if the timing was more random =).

Currently I'm itching to call 10 caravan at the same time and slaughter them at once.

It would probably be easier to just put in a cooldown between calling in caravans from the same faction. (For example, after calling in one caravan from an Outsider town, you have to wait 3 days to call in another caravan from that same town.)

;D

Yes but that wouldn't prevent someone from adding 10 factions to the game, and pulling the same stunt with different factions.

I've started playing today version (0.15.1279) and pawns with less than 75 carrying capacity continue doing bills taking less materials than needed.

I test this with wooden large sculptures. 260 units of wood needed. A pawn with 66 cc takes 3 times 66 units of wood (198 units in total). In the table the 198 units appear in 75+75+48. The pawn should take 62 units more, but he only takes 43 and starts the sculpture.

Quote from: kasnavada on August 28, 2016, 10:27:20 AMYes but that wouldn't prevent someone from adding 10 factions to the game, and pulling the same stunt with different factions.

It wouldn't, but the advantage of calling 10 caravans from the same faction at once was that you would only take 1 reputation penalty from killing all 10 at once. If they're all from different factions, you take reputation penalty from each of them.

Quote from: kasnavada on August 28, 2016, 10:27:20 AM

Quote from: MikeLemmer on August 28, 2016, 10:17:11 AM

Quote from: kasnavada on August 28, 2016, 09:10:25 AM
About the current alpha, when asking for multiple caravans while paused, they arrive at the exact same moment. I think it would be better if the timing was more random =).

Currently I'm itching to call 10 caravan at the same time and slaughter them at once.

It would probably be easier to just put in a cooldown between calling in caravans from the same faction. (For example, after calling in one caravan from an Outsider town, you have to wait 3 days to call in another caravan from that same town.)

;D

Yes but that wouldn't prevent someone from adding 10 factions to the game, and pulling the same stunt with different factions.

Stay concerned with the base game, not what people may mod the game to do. A cooldown would work nicely, or staggering by randomizing the time it takes, maybe based on distance to their settlement and how much they are carrying.

Although agreed, it would be nice if the caravans were more reliably seasonal. Heck, would be nice if factions overall were more dynamic, but I suspect that's a thing for a later update.

Quote from: NolanSyKinsley on August 28, 2016, 12:02:01 PM

Quote from: kasnavada on August 28, 2016, 10:27:20 AM
;D

Yes but that wouldn't prevent someone from adding 10 factions to the game, and pulling the same stunt with different factions.

Stay concerned with the base game, not what people may mod the game to do. A cooldown would work nicely, or staggering by randomizing the time it takes, maybe based on distance to their settlement and how much they are carrying.

I don't think it poses less of a concern with 3 or 4 factions =).
Also, I'd be very, very very surprised if the possibility to add / remove factions is not in the base game once released. So yeah planning for it.

Quote from: kasnavada on August 28, 2016, 02:47:38 PM

Quote from: NolanSyKinsley on August 28, 2016, 12:02:01 PM

Quote from: kasnavada on August 28, 2016, 10:27:20 AM
;D

Yes but that wouldn't prevent someone from adding 10 factions to the game, and pulling the same stunt with different factions.

Stay concerned with the base game, not what people may mod the game to do. A cooldown would work nicely, or staggering by randomizing the time it takes, maybe based on distance to their settlement and how much they are carrying.

I don't think it poses less of a concern with 3 or 4 factions =).
Also, I'd be very, very very surprised if the possibility to add / remove factions is not in the base game once released. So yeah planning for it.

It wouldn't be a concern for 3 or 4 factions, either. The problem with 10 caravans arriving at once was that all those caravans came from the same faction. If you slaughtered them all at once, you only got 1 penalty with that faction instead of the 1 penalty per caravan that was intended. If you slaughter 10 caravans that are each from a different faction, then you get 1 penalty per faction for a total of 10 penalties: working as intended.

So Tynan, now that v15 is publically released, you going to unpin this thread?