Dead Colonists: -3 mood
Dead "INNOCENT" prisoner: -7 mood
Apparently its better if you recruit the prisoner(that shot you with a rocket launcher and killed 4 of your people) and then kill him/harvest to death to "ease" your pawns minds.
Generally i would be more upset if someone who i was working with died then someone who shot me.
Quote from: kuledude on September 09, 2016, 02:39:03 PM
Dead Colonists: -3 mood
Dead "INNOCENT" prisoner: -7 mood
Apparently its better if you recruit the prisoner(that shot you with a rocket launcher and killed 4 of your people) and then kill him/harvest to death to "ease" your pawns minds.
Generally i would be more upset if someone who i was working with died then someone who shot me.
Aye I agree. I think unless the colonist is ''sensitive'' it should not bother them much that you sell off prisoners either. They should be able to gain character traits after awhile too. Why would a colonist that spent 3 years killing invading raiders be bothered about seeing dead bodies ? Some of them could become psychopath after a while. It would be fun if they gained traits after events. Like Bug killer for instance after killing many megaspiders so the colonist would have a traits bonus when fighting infestations.
Maybe I should throw that in the 1,000,000 suggestions Tynan had or ask one of the modders :D
What I dislike is it dissuades you from rescuing heavily-injured attackers; it's better to just let them bleed out on the ground (or execute them) rather than try to save them and risk the "Prisoner Died" debuff.
Between that and the "capture escape pod survivors to recruit them", I suspect the whole Prisoner/Medical system will be overhauled soon.
I think it makes sense.
If a fellow colonist died in the line of duty, it wouldn't affect my work ethic as much as knowing someone in the colony is killing our prisoners or letting them die.
Quote from: Ltp0wer on September 09, 2016, 04:20:35 PM
I think it makes sense.
If a fellow colonist died in the line of duty, it wouldn't affect my work ethic as much as knowing someone in the colony is killing our prisoners or letting them die.
Most of the time we are trying to save the prisoner, often someone who recently tried to kill us. Why should anyone be upset if they die? We were trying to save them after they tried to kill us!
Conversely, if I live in a survival situation with a handful of other people who I spend all day every day with, I will be very upset when one of them dies.
I can understand a possible mood debuff for 'Execute' and only for the very sensitive colonists.
I think the problem here is that the tag 'Innocent' is applied automatically to all prisoners. But that usually is not the case.
Don't forget that executing an annoying colonist can result in a mood *increase* for the colony!
Mood/relations should apply to prisoners too. If a prisoner killed your colonist then his friends should get a mood buff if the prisoner is executed.
Personally, I would like to see more mood de-buffs due to laundry exhaustion and detoxification of prisoners while in your care. I mean, perhaps they come from colonies where doing laundry is more common.
OK, well *this* is annoying. I treated and released some prisoners. They went for a walk to head home. On the way, two of them got eaten by timber wolves. Now how the heck am I supposed to prevent *that* without hunting down and exterminating every predator on the map? Do I have to send armed escorts with prisoners when I let them go?
You know what? That's actually not that bad of an idea. Letting one of your colonists escort a prisoner, instead of just letting them walk away.
Quote from: Shurp on September 15, 2016, 07:59:28 PM
OK, well *this* is annoying. I treated and released some prisoners. They went for a walk to head home. On the way, two of them got eaten by timber wolves. Now how the heck am I supposed to prevent *that* without hunting down and exterminating every predator on the map? Do I have to send armed escorts with prisoners when I let them go?
They could have eaten one of your own colonists, so yeah. Shooting down every predator can become a must.
Quote from: SpaceDorf on September 15, 2016, 10:36:56 PM
They could have eaten one of your own colonists, so yeah. Shooting down every predator can become a must.
My colonists are usually at base or walking back and forth to mines where I can keep an eye on them... they're not wandering about the map at random.
I second the basic complaint. Our colony saved a raider who had seriously damaged the colonists. Afterwards, there was a jail-break (and from a nice, comfy room with a table, chair, fine meal, and stone tile). The escapee nearly beat to death the first colonist on the scene, and ended up getting shot. This wasn't a very valuable prisoner, and the colony was pissed at the breakout due to how well the prisoner had been treated. So fine. Zero treatment. Let the bastard bleed to death. Then I get the debuff after the jerk nearly killed colonists twice. Innocent? Not hardly.
Quote from: Ltp0wer on September 09, 2016, 04:20:35 PM
I think it makes sense.
If a fellow colonist died in the line of duty, it wouldn't affect my work ethic as much as knowing someone in the colony is killing our prisoners or letting them die.
That's work ethic, not state of mind. If one of your direct colleagues died that'd affect you more than when some dude who tried to rob and murder your family in your own home, and got locked into prison died for whatever reason. You might even feel happy/relieved the guy isn't alive anymore and can never do something like that again.
Also that's talking about killing them or letting them die, not releasing them with a clean bill of health then finding out he got eaten by a timber wolf at the edge of the map when you notice a negative thought on all your pawns. Even more annoying when a prisoner dies after having done everything in your power to save said prisoner and getting the negative thought as if you had mercilessly starved or tortured the guy to death. Or the worst case getting the thought when a prisoner who up until recently had tried to kill your asses(so nowhere near innocent from the get go) escapes, grabs a weapon and then dies as the colonists fight for their lives against the guy, the guy was trying to murder them(again) there's nothing innocent about that.
Yeah, as implemented the prisoner ethic system is broken, but it's hard for the game to distinguish "he was trying to kill us so we had to put him down" from "we're torturing prisoners for the fun of it and oops one of them died." So the game punishes both.
On a side note, one of my colonists who was out mining just got eaten by a warg. So it looks like I *do* have to constantly clean the map of predators, which is annoying. Why don't predators eat the plentiful frozen corpses lying around instead of chasing my pawns?
Fresh food > Frozen food.
Wargs aren't savages, you know. On some Glitterworlds, wargs are employed as full time food critics.
Needless to say, bad chefs don't last long in the business.
Well not every predator, I mean if you make sure your pawns don't work themselves into a dead end you have little to fear from bears(since they are slower than slowpoke colonists). Anything that's faster than your colonists can be a problem if you send them halfway across the map without back up or panic shelters(3x3 with doors on all 4 sides) nearby.
There really should be tags applied to prisoners based on where they came from before imprisonment that decides on how heavy the debuff for them dying in your captivity.
The guy that was just part of the group that tried to besiege your colony with mortar-fire? I doubt most people would care much if he dropped dead.
The trader from the friendly caravan you decided to attack for their gear dies from the wounds you inflicted? Yeah, I'd imagine that'd lay pretty heavily on most people's conscious' and start questioning the way the place is ran.
Underrated post.
Also, I've never had a predator attack a colonist. Always my little animals.
additionally, a cannibal only colony that regularly kills, butchers and eats outsiders shouldn't ALL get a huge mood debuff when i harvest organs from a prisoner and then euthanise, if anything extra meat should make them happy.
game breaking, no joke.
Quote from: MikeLemmer on September 09, 2016, 03:35:45 PM
Between that and the "capture escape pod survivors to recruit them", I suspect the whole Prisoner/Medical system will be overhauled soon.
OOT here, but yes, I think the decision to recruit a survivor or let it go should be done at a hospital bed, not on a prison cell... On my first game, I lost a very nice recruit by treating him, instead of capturing him...
I find it weird, too. I actually think most people should be more eager to punish a former evil, especially if it's vulnerable, harmless now. And especially if colonists are on edge. I thought I'll have to protect my prisoners from depressed colonists. But now they even have a 0 opinion of former raider. It should be something like "former cop" trait in PA. Colonists should get opinion hits like "their faction killed my friend/soulmate X", or "he killed X", and decay very slowly. Capture raiders exactly to execute them, and euthanasia should give negative hits due to "lack of punishment". Why so humanist? Give lynch mobs! And, of course, vengeful and pacifist characters should act differently.
Well, just one more idea to a pull of 1.000.000 ideas.
Fun fact: there's absolutely no penalty for letting a downed neutral you rescued die.
system is not about realism or logic, it's about drama.
I think maybe we're all treating the 'innocent prisoner' problem as if it's completely black and white.
If someone has been attacking you and your home, then of course there is going to be some ill-will towards that person. On the other hand, once they have been taken into captivity they are ultimately helpless. Regardless of what they have done, if you have chosen to imprison them then they are in your care.
That leads to the question – why did you capture them in the first place? If you wanted to kill them, why didn't you do that during or directly after the battle? If your aim is to recruit them, then we're assuming that the colony are willing to live and work alongside this person in just a few days, so would they really be completely okay with them needlessly dying? If your plan is to harvest the prisoner for organs or eat them – fine! But you have to expect civilised people to take issue with that.
Having said all that, it's obvious that the death of a friend or colleague is more upsetting than the death of an unknown aggressor – but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be upsetting to most people. Perhaps the simplest route would be just to switch the negative impact of these two debuffs.
Tynan has posted on Reddit about the innocent prisoner situation, and that "this has been taken care of now". So it's probably safe to assume that there will be some changes to this in A16. Here is a link to the Reddit thread in question:-
https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/513se8/innocent_prisoner_died/
And the two quotes by Tynan from it:
"Yep, I think you're right. There are cases where this thought doesn't make sense. I'll work on it for the next alpha. Thanks for reminding me"
https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/513se8/innocent_prisoner_died/d79kg7y
"Okay, this has been taken care of now."
https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/513se8/innocent_prisoner_died/d7uwpqh
Quote from: Shurp on September 18, 2016, 07:25:57 AM
...it's hard for the game to distinguish "he was trying to kill us so we had to put him down" from "we're torturing prisoners for the fun of it and oops one of them died." So the game punishes both."
Really? So how does it know when a prisoner should attack your colonists or just eat her dinner like a good inmate?
(Hint: their names go red)
There is also some weirdness where I get a -8 social malus for executing a prisoner. Not a mood debuff(!), but apparently the others don't like executioners
With an all-psychopaths colony. Now with "normal" people that might make sense. But psychopaths aren't supposed to care about that.
Quote from: Posswam on September 27, 2016, 06:42:15 AM
That leads to the question – why did you capture them in the first place? If you wanted to kill them, why didn't you do that during or directly after the battle? If your aim is to recruit them, then we're assuming that the colony are willing to live and work alongside this person in just a few days, so would they really be completely okay with them needlessly dying? If your plan is to harvest the prisoner for organs or eat them – fine! But you have to expect civilised people to take issue with that.
I imprison them to execute as example. It's difference between shooting criminals at field and executing them in prison. Especially disarmed criminals.
Oh, it's so nice of my colonists to be polite about prisoners and friend killers, against the background of smashing each other faces and being happy about death of rivals, going berserk about another guy having more impressive room.
Quote from: Posswam on September 27, 2016, 06:42:15 AM
Having said all that, it's obvious that the death of a friend or colleague is more upsetting than the death of an unknown aggressor – but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be upsetting to most people. Perhaps the simplest route would be just to switch the negative impact of these two debuffs.
If they knew and liked the colonist, there's already another debuff for that, and it lasts quite a bit longer and can be quite a bit larger. The 'colonist died' debuff is mostly just there to make it so you can't intentionally kill colonists to dodge the 'colonist euthanized' debuff.
Glad to hear it is getting fixed. Now I can sell all the captured raiders I want. lol.
i was more making the point that why would cannibals care about human life at all? anything outside their collective is food, sounds like good news is on the way though. :)
Quote from: avilmask on September 27, 2016, 01:23:35 PM
I imprison them to execute as example. It's difference between shooting criminals at field and executing them in prison. Especially disarmed criminals.
If you were a rimworld pawn there is a good chance you'd have the character trait 'psycopath'. ;D
Quote from: Posswam on September 28, 2016, 07:36:00 AM
If you were a rimworld pawn there is a good chance you'd have the character trait 'psycopath'. ;D
Nah, that's not true :) Why modern law enforcement system tries to catch known murderers instead of shooting them on place?
And by "disarmed" I meant it's kind of bad to shoot incapable of fighting people after main battle. They should be judged by colony and THEN executed or freed.
I like playing tribal starts due to prolonged development progress, gives more "living through" feeling of some kind. But only good solution to any survivors in battle is finishing them (tribals really bad at recruiting raiders).. Especially in my last run, where I managed to get only one good doc in 2 years (and I ended up getting rid of him, because he was drug-fascinated, greedy and depressive with painful scars) so I couldn't collect organs. Public hangs of raiders could be at last one way of using them, lol.
If I catch prisoners during defense, and sell them for money I would be happy that the effort was worth it.
Think of it like ramsom.
Think in this way.
Raid. 3-4 downed. Captured, patched up. After that one colonist enters in prison and is like "now give me one fucking reason to keep you alive and not beat you every day to the point of death for one year". The prisoner is like "I am good with animals, I can cook and I can manufacture guns". Your colonist is like "we'll see about that".
Then gets out and looks at personal files. He learns that colony already have 2 good animal herders, 2 perfect cooks and a bunch of passionate craftsmen. So goes back in prison room and tells the raider: "Boy, I have good news and bad news. Good one is everyone is too busy to smash your knees on daily basis with a baseball bat. Bad one... we have plenty of bullets" Then smokes the ex-raider, butchers and cooks him.
Here comes the interesting part. The colonists are kinda upset, because he killed the potential new guy. The one they wanted to ask to shine their shoes, scratch their back, arrange the bed, clean the restroom with toothbrush, go outside in snow and bring 23 snowflakes, etc. Obviously their mood takes a hit.
On a more serious note, why you guys have to rescue everyone?
Can't you just look for good candidates and rescue only the ones with decent stats and good traits?
Those you rescue you keep in bed, heal only wounds that have no connection with mobility (so they stay in bed and not cause trouble), then level up your warden social skills. When they are ripe to be recruited, recruit them, and only after that heal them.
Quote from: taha on September 30, 2016, 06:52:27 AM
Those you rescue you keep in bed, heal only wounds that have no connection with mobility (so they stay in bed and not cause trouble), then level up your warden social skills. When they are ripe to be recruited, recruit them, and only after that heal them.
I even thought about a way, how I could cut off a leg, like let a very bad at medicine guy install a peg leg. Don't really remember if you can install and then remove it. If what, you could install a simple prosthetic leg, you definitely can uninstall that, but kind of waste if you fail it.
I just realized that I never seen raiders with prosthetics, or lost parts. They're always all healthy (except age and drug problems).
I just think it's a waste to always finish off whoever survives, but there is no somewhat civilized way to utilize imprisoned raiders except recruiting. Only organ harvesting and plain sadism for player himself. And any actions, except recruiting and freeing, lead to penalty.
Fo example, my dude should suffer -10 friend lose and -20 wife lose (both at the same time), but there is nothing like avenged death, killer punished or killer in prison, anything like that. Yeah, punishment doesn't return loved one, but justice served surely may sooth a pain. They also may be a "killer left unpunished" penalty if killer flees or getting free.