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RimWorld => Ideas => Topic started by: fifasnipe2224 on October 15, 2013, 09:11:12 AM

Title: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: fifasnipe2224 on October 15, 2013, 09:11:12 AM
Will there be / is there many decision making opportunities in RimWorld? To be more specific, those popups you would get in FTL when you reach a new start or the questions they would ask you in Oregon Trail.

For exp: You are being contacted by a few settlers, do you allow them to join you or warn them that they will be shot on sight.

Or: One of your (crew? settlers? prisoners?) have grown extremely sick from an unknown virus. Do you (a) treat the victim with the risk of spreading the sickness or (b) execute the victim to protect the others.
Title: Re: Quick Question
Post by: miah999 on October 15, 2013, 09:26:16 AM
It does not have those type of dialogues at the moment.

I'm not sure that dialogue boxes are the right way to go with RimWorld. I think if one of your colonists get sick for instance, you just have to use the tools at your disposal to deal with it. If you have advanced medical tech you try and treat, if all you have is a gun, you do what you have to.
Title: Re: Quick Question
Post by: Tynan on October 15, 2013, 12:08:29 PM
Quote from: miah999 on October 15, 2013, 09:26:16 AM
I'm not sure that dialogue boxes are the right way to go with RimWorld. I think if one of your colonists get sick for instance, you just have to use the tools at your disposal to deal with it. If you have advanced medical tech you try and treat, if all you have is a gun, you do what you have to.

This is basically it. The code is in there to do this, though it's only used for notifications and not choices at the moment. Mostly RimWorld tries to get you to engage your situation in the actual simulation instead of just talking about it in an arbitrary dialog.

Perhaps I should bring some back, though, just because they're so straightforward to implement.
Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: GC13 on October 15, 2013, 12:11:37 PM
Well, wouldn't negotiation with the raiders necessarily use the alert+choice system? You can use it to allow us to make a few decisions you can't really model in the simulation itself since they'd be so rarely used (trader dumps a hauler somewhere: do you repair it [costing metal but getting the hauler] or scrap it [gaining metal]?).

I mean, I suppose we could have a repair shop and a scrap yard in the game, and just right-click the vehicle and tell the colonists where to take it, but you get the idea: what if we didn't have those things but still had vehicles?
Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: Tynan on October 15, 2013, 12:15:01 PM
Quote from: GC13 on October 15, 2013, 12:11:37 PM
Well, wouldn't negotiation with the raiders necessarily use the alert+choice system?

Yes, negotiations are where this system will probably begin to appear.

As for the repair example, I generally wouldn't create an event that depends on a nonexistent system. Usually there's a way to build up the game such that you never create a part of the design that "stands on air", so to speak.
Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: GC13 on October 15, 2013, 12:19:49 PM
I don't think it's "standing on air". It's just something the colonists do so infrequently that they wouldn't have established facilities for it. Clearly they have the capacity for maintenance, and you can use those capacities in ways you don't normally.

I mean, imagine if you could negotiate with a raider leader you captured and one of the options was to execute him for his crimes. Obviously the same tools the colonists use to fight can be used to execute, no special systems allowed.
Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: Tynan on October 15, 2013, 12:28:11 PM
I'd rather model execution intent as a designation where a colonist actually goes and does it in the world. Funny enough, it's already in the game! You can execute prisoners.
Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: Christian on October 15, 2013, 04:43:17 PM
Quote from: Tynan on October 15, 2013, 12:28:11 PM
I'd rather model execution intent as a designation where a colonist actually goes and does it in the world. Funny enough, it's already in the game! You can execute prisoners.
Does this have an effect on other prisoners? Can you choose where to do (take them to an outside location, do it in front of the others)? This game already has so much depth, I can't wait for the finished product
Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: Tynan on October 15, 2013, 05:39:04 PM
Quote from: Christian on October 15, 2013, 04:43:17 PM
Does this have an effect on other prisoners? Can you choose where to do (take them to an outside location, do it in front of the others)? This game already has so much depth, I can't wait for the finished product

Executions terrify everyone in the colony - prisoners and colonists alike - into not starting any troubles :)

If you have a lot of prisoners, you can just execute them regularly to keep people in line. Though this strategy seems to be largely unexplored atm.
Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: Hypolite on October 15, 2013, 05:43:02 PM
It's unexplored because you don't get so much prisoners that you can execute one without depriving you of a chance of having a new recruit. And carpets and flower pots are more than enough to keep everyone happy :)
Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: Tynan on October 15, 2013, 05:46:16 PM
Quote from: Hypolite on October 15, 2013, 05:43:02 PM
It's unexplored because you don't get so much prisoners that you can execute one without depriving you of a chance of having a new recruit. And carpets and flower pots are more than enough to keep everyone happy :)

Yeah, it really has little strategic value as a strategy. I also think most people don't want to do this kind of thing. It'll probably be cut, along with the whole "Fear" system in its current state.
Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: Lechai on October 15, 2013, 05:50:34 PM
Its possible to make FTL decisions without using a yes/no dialog box.
For example:
Pirate King + entourage arrives and communicates via transmission.
You send a colonist to the comm station.
The Pirate king demands the release of his buddy, prisoner 'X' or he'll kill everyone.
If your social is high enough he may even offer compensation such as credits or maybe even a trade of some prisoner he has.
You have 1 minute to get the prisoner to map position 'Y' or he attacks.
Could also add the element of risk as he may just attack anyway...

This method, as Ty alluded to, is a lot more subtle by using the elements of the game world to make your decisions and create a story as opposed to being forced into a yes/no choice.

maybe you decide to get to the exchange site early and place a few blasting charges, just in case...

Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: Tynan on October 15, 2013, 05:57:16 PM
Quote from: Lechai on October 15, 2013, 05:50:34 PM
Its possible to make FTL decisions without using a yes/no dialog box.
For example:
Pirate King + entourage arrives and communicates via transmission.
You send a colonist to the comm station.
The Pirate king demands the release of his buddy, prisoner 'X' or he'll kill everyone.
If your social is high enough he may even offer compensation such as credits or maybe even a trade of some prisoner he has.
You have 1 minute to get the prisoner to map position 'Y' or he attacks.
Could also add the element of risk as he may just attack anyway...

This method, as Ty alluded to, is a lot more subtle by using the elements of the game world to make your decisions and create a story as opposed to being forced into a yes/no choice.

maybe you decide to get to the exchange site early and place a few blasting charges, just in case...

Yeah, this sort of negotiation is exactly the use case where I think direct-choice dialogs are sensible.
Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: British on October 15, 2013, 06:05:39 PM
This is an organic decision, which thus doesn't have anything to do with FTL, where you are presented with a set amount of choices to pick from.

The very example you provide emphasizes this.
There's much granularity out of the FTL-style: you could also go deliver the prisoner to the PK, and then engage him.
Or lay charges around your base and kill the prisoner.
The list can most likely go on...
Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: Tynan on October 15, 2013, 06:10:43 PM
Quote from: British on October 15, 2013, 06:05:39 PM
This is an organic decision, which thus doesn't have anything to do with FTL, where you are presented with a set amount of choices to pick from.

The very example you provide emphasizes this.
There's much granularity out of the FTL-style: you could also go deliver the prisoner to the PK, and then engage him.
Or lay charges around your base and kill the prisoner.
The list can most likely go on...

Indeed - when stuff is actually simulated, it can interact with other stuff that's going on too :) Like the prisoner starves to death. Or an animal kills him. And all sorts of player treachery. All sorts of fun stuff.
Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: salt1219 on October 15, 2013, 06:24:29 PM
i wouldn't cut the fear system.  it may not be often used now but its nice to have it as a option, besides you might add something that makes it a viable option in the future.
Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: miah999 on October 15, 2013, 07:46:09 PM
 I like the idea behind the fear system, I think it could lead to a lot of unique interactions in the future, especially when other groups like natives are added. Fear could be what keeps them at bay most the time. I also think it would be nice for the wildlife to have fear, so you could shew them away from your base.

And I've used the execution mechanic twice, both times on captured raiders with little use. I'm not sure if it helped with recruiting their room mates, but it seemed to.
Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: Finjinimo on October 15, 2013, 08:14:03 PM
I was planning on a fear themed base for my first playthrough.

I like that I don't have to play nice.

As to decision making dialog: i think they're useful as unique events. Something out of the ordinary that occur once or twice a year (that we can choose to engage with or ignore). I would enjoy something like that.
Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: British on October 16, 2013, 03:33:22 AM
Quote from: Finjinimo on October 15, 2013, 08:14:03 PM
As to decision making dialog: i think they're useful as unique events. Something out of the ordinary that occur once or twice a year (that we can choose to engage with or ignore). I would enjoy something like that.
The way Tynan is making RimWorld is that the story is important.
You experience it seamlessly (let's put the pausing system apart for the sake of the argument) as you help your colony settle down, hopefully prosper, most likely fall.
Having dialogs with set choices that you *have* to pick will only break the momentum of the story.

As explained on the previous page, the game gives us (as players, and Tynan, as developer) the freedom to make those choices by taking specific actions, and it does integrate (seamlessly, thus) within the story.
Title: Re: FTL-style decision making dialogs?
Post by: Finjinimo on October 16, 2013, 04:55:40 AM
Yes... and I am all for that.

I thought these types of events would occur in the same way that traders appear now.

They appear, I can engage with them or ignore them. Then they leave.

Extra Narrative Events could be built on that exact same mechanic. It's hardly immersion breaking, if anything it would be there to enrich the experience of those who choose to engage with it without being detrimental to those that don't want to deal with it.

I am all for building my own narrative through straight simulation of my colony. I am looking forward to the stories that I'll be creating on my own just through gameplay.

I don't really mind if these things are part of the game or not -- I will enjoy the game regardless. I just think these types of events, used sparingly, could be a useful tool that allows us to paint a richer, deeper tapestry of the entire Rimworld universe.