(https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorSpirits/blob/master/About/Preview.png?raw=true)
You Ancestors are watching you, and they are hard to impress. To ignore them would be foolish, though - they're the foundation of your tribal magic, and if they're displeased are more than capable of calling down storms, plagues, and divine punishments. If, on the other hand, you manage to honor and please your ancestors, they can gift you with Magic, which is the basis for all your Petitions - Petitions which can call rain or lightning, or heal sick or injured tribe members.
(https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorSpirits/blob/master/About/Images/RoomAndAncestorCard.jpg?raw=true)
Every so often, your Ancestors will drop in to visit! They don't need to eat or sleep, but they do get bored sometimes. Mostly they're here just to see the sights! Ugliness and disorder will anger them, but beautiful and rich surroundings will please them. When your Ancestors return to their Anchor, they will pass judgement on your village. If they're pleased, they will grant you more magic when the season turns. If they're not, you may even lose magic. If they're incredibly displeased you may suffer a curse, so ensure that this does not happen!
(https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorSpirits/blob/master/About/Images/ChoosingPetitions.jpg?raw=true)
The Magic that you accumulate can be spent on Petitions. The amount of magic spent is equal to the number of attached and lit Braziers (those are the buildings on the left/right of the Shrine). You can spend between double and half the listed magic price. The chance of success at half magic is slightly over half, and at double they will for sure grant your petition. Vary your spend depending on urgency, but overall you will probably have better long-term results by using less on more attempts.
# Current Petitions
+ smite attackers - call upon your Ancestors to destroy your attackers with lightning
+ beating rain - call upon your Ancestors to bring rain
+ howling wind - call upon your Ancestors to bring wind
+ sweltering heat - call upon your Ancestors to bring a heat wave
+ icy chill - call upon your Ancestors to bring a cold snap
+ help heal wounds - call upon your Ancestors to help your wounded warriors heal
+ help cure sickness - call upon your Ancestors to help banish sickness
+ bless crops - call upon your Ancestors to make your crops grow faster and survive ill conditions
+ cleanse the skies - call upon your Ancestors to blow away unnatural weather
# Optional Mod Mods
Wishmaster has made a mod mod which allows Ancestors to pass through doors (because they're ghosts!) and causes enemies to ignore them so they don't get caught up infinitely attempting to attack the unkillable ghosts. Posted here: https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=27186.msg277229#msg277229
# Disclaimer
This mod is current very much a work-in-progress! It can be applied to in-progress games, but don't use it on any saves you're not prepared to use.
# Installation Information
Basic installation:
- If there is an existing version of this mod, delete the old version
- Download and unzip into the RimWorld/Mods folder
- Activate the mod and restart RimWorld
## Adding to existing saves
This mod is extremely unstable when being added to an existing save! Due to the nature of the way the mod injects MapComponents, it has a possibility of failing when being loaded into running saves. If you add this into an existing save, make sure to back up the save first. This issue will be addressed when the CCL update is released.
*This mod adds a hidden Ancestor Faction!* This means that if you attempt to add it to an ongoing game, you must also have Orion's Faction Discovery mod (forums https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=25159.0 or steam http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=751841890) or this mod will throw an error when loaded. Starting a new game does not require the Faction Discovery mod and will work fine.
## Compatibility
This mod should be safe to use with any mods which do not detour any of the same functions. The detours are listed below. If you discover an issue, please post in the thread here (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=27186.0) so I can add it to the known conflicts.
### Known Mod Conflicts
+ This mod conflicts with Hospitality. I've added a compatibility mod, which can be found here: https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorsHospitalityCompatibility
### Detours
This mod detours the following functions, and will conflict with any mods that also detour them:
+ Verse.AI.GenAI.CanBeArrested
+ Verse.AI.Job.ExposeData
+ RimWorld.Pawn_ApparalTracker.get_PsychologicallyNude
+ RimWorld.Pawn_NeedsTracker.ShouldHaveNeed
# Download
See here: https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorSpirits/releases
At some future point I may put it on Steam, but I don't feel it's nearly done enough for that.
# Thanks To
+ Ratsys (examples and injection code)
+ Orion (examples and code from Hospitality)
[Continued]
Changelog and features: https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorSpirits/blob/master/About/Features.md
##########
This is the first mod I've posted. Any suggestions/bits of constructive feedback are welcome, especially on balancing/ideas on how to make it fun. The things in it right now are a ton of random things that I basically said "Wouldn't it be cool if you could Do X!?" so...yeah, there was no effort in making sure it was, well, balanced.
I suspect that the "Call rain" petition is basically worthless to everybody. Maybe if plants needed water.
Also my art is what is usually referred to as "Programmer art" - that is, terrible. If there are any artists out there who can actually do that sort of stuff, I'd gladly put those assets in.
It would be great if this is compatible with medieval mod now I have a Greek settlement that started as a tribe
The compatibilities section is kind of misleading now that I read it. It should be fully compatible with the Medieval Times mod, unless it happens to override one of the same functions that this one overrides. I'll re-write that section to be more clear.
Congrats on the release :) I have been anticipating this mod since seeing it on the unfinished forums.
Hey hurrah it's finished!
Congratz for the release. You got me interested/intrigued since your post in the WIP forum, so I'm looking forward to test this one.
Cheers
me too I've been anticipating this mod. found out it conflicts with medieval mods factions sorry can't use this yet
Nice idea!
Quote from: MinutesToWeekend on October 31, 2016, 11:34:59 PM
I suspect that the "Call rain" petition is basically worthless to everybody. Maybe if plants needed water.
This sounds useful for putting out fires when your pawns are busy, especially large bush fires that are threatening your crops or base.
Quote from: jmababa on November 01, 2016, 02:10:40 AM
me too I've been anticipating this mod. found out it conflicts with medieval mods factions sorry can't use this yet
Ack! That's a serious oversight on my part - I forgot about how Factions interact with already-running games. Grr.
E: Well the easy fix is to use Faction Discovery. https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=25159.0
I'll update the README about using this in in-progress games.
EE: Updated README, info post.
Ill try that but i really want to see my factions at start
Hey, i havent tried out this mod yet but had a few questions.
How does impressiveness, space, wealth and beaty contribute to the mood of the spirit? I kind of feel like this will make the game very hard because of 2 reasons.
1. if you make a shrine that is beatiful and wealthy with art etc. you lure stronger raiders to you. Either your spirits smite is enough to take care of them or well... you die as 20 raiders with energy weapons go against your tribe with clubs and bows.
2. if you do NOT built a nice shrine, you displease the spirits which lead to diseases, bad weather ,heatwaves etc, which can easily wipe out your tribe.
I think its a cool idea, but needs some fine tuning.either by tweaking the numbers of the above problem, or by adding weapons(magic wands?), armor, or "divine blessings" that give extra protection or accuracy or make your colonist work faster etc.0
Building wealth contributes 0.55% to the base points when determining raid size. I think you'll be okay as long as you don't make the statues out of gold or something else which is ridiculously expensive.
Quote from: jmababa on November 01, 2016, 11:39:18 PM
Ill try that but i really want to see my factions at start
Faction Discovery is only required if you want to add the mod to an in-progress save. You can start a new save without it if you want.
Quote from: NathanxS on November 02, 2016, 09:35:06 AM
Hey, i havent tried out this mod yet but had a few questions.
How does impressiveness, space, wealth and beaty contribute to the mood of the spirit? I kind of feel like this will make the game very hard because of 2 reasons.
Balancing has not been a priority, but I don't think this will be too much of an issue.
Right now the weights are exactly the same as a normal pawn. If your pawns think a room is beautiful, spacious, or rich, so will your Ancestors. You don't incur Super Raids just by adding a few statues to your colony to keep your colonists' moods up, and unless you do something really weird you won't incur Super Raids here either.
Besides if you can build Jade statues you already should have plenty of Charge Rifles and Power Armor.
The curses really aren't that punishing, either - the blight for example only wipes out a portion of one type of crop, and the curse sicknesses only target one pawn at a time. I think this mod might actually make the game much easier in its current state.
If there are any balance changes you think might be helpful once you try it out, please give feedback.
Just a quick question.
Is it possible to kill visiting ancestors in game? If yeah, can they be butchered into some kind of op leather and op meat and what are the consenquences?
Quote from: TOWC on November 02, 2016, 12:50:51 PM
Just a quick question.
Is it possible to kill visiting ancestors in game? If yeah, can they be butchered into some kind of op leather and op meat and what are the consenquences?
An important question in the true spirit (hah) of Rimworld.
Quote from: TOWC on November 02, 2016, 12:50:51 PM
Just a quick question.
Is it possible to kill visiting ancestors in game? If yeah, can they be butchered into some kind of op leather and op meat and what are the consenquences?
If you can I'd like to hear about how you did it. I wanted to make them unharmable because they're ghosts! but I couldn't figure out how to cleanly do it. I ended up just jacking their resistances up really high and shot a few rockets at them and they took no damage, so they *should* be effectively invincible.
They won't drop leather, either, if you somehow manage to kill them. Because they're ghosts.
Thinking about it more I could override the right-click menu so you can't force-attack them, and...maybe somehow remove them from the AI targeting list? Hmm.
Quote from: NathanxS on November 02, 2016, 09:35:06 AM
Hey, i havent tried out this mod yet but had a few questions.
How does impressiveness, space, wealth and beaty contribute to the mood of the spirit? I kind of feel like this will make the game very hard because of 2 reasons.
1. if you make a shrine that is beatiful and wealthy with art etc. you lure stronger raiders to you. Either your spirits smite is enough to take care of them or well... you die as 20 raiders with energy weapons go against your tribe with clubs and bows.
2. if you do NOT built a nice shrine, you displease the spirits which lead to diseases, bad weather ,heatwaves etc, which can easily wipe out your tribe.
I think its a cool idea, but needs some fine tuning.either by tweaking the numbers of the above problem, or by adding weapons(magic wands?), armor, or "divine blessings" that give extra protection or accuracy or make your colonist work faster etc.0
Get the medieval mod this goes very well with this shrine haha now you have a Greek tribe. don't mess with the Envoy of the Gods you don't want the wrath of Zeus.
I'm so excited to play this!
Reporting in briefly with a suboptimal event - I got an Ancestral Visit on the very first night of the new colony, and they are so not impressed by my meager efforts that they keep leaving, over and over again. I'm not even sure they spawn before they leave?
I see something in the output log about a fire? I haven't built a campfire yet, if that's relevant.
(Edit #1: forgot that I should test it without the other mods I'm using. It is still happening when this is the only mod installed. Updating the attached output_log.text file to be one with just this mod.)
[attachment deleted by admin due to age]
Quote from: Tammabanana on November 03, 2016, 01:38:10 PM
I'm so excited to play this!
Reporting in briefly with a suboptimal event - I got an Ancestral Visit on the very first night of the new colony, and they are so not impressed by my meager efforts that they keep leaving, over and over again. I'm not even sure they spawn before they leave?
I see something in the output log about a fire? I haven't built a campfire yet, if that's relevant.
(Edit #1: forgot that I should test it without the other mods I'm using. It is still happening when this is the only mod installed. Updating the attached output_log.text file to be one with just this mod.)
Whoops. That's a bug. What's happening is you haven't build a Shrine yet, so they're trying to spawn in on a non-existent Shrine and everything goes sideways. When I tested the very first thing I always did was build a Shrine...
I'll put up a fix shortly.
E: New tag, https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorSpirits/releases/tag/v0.1c
+ Update README with compatibility, install info
+ Fix NPE for visits with no anchors
+ Add 7-day grace period for No-Shrine visit penalties
+ Remove extra Cloth & Wood costs for Shrine
Yay, thanks!
With the cloth requirements removed from the shrine, I was able to build it late the first day, and the ancestors visited the second day.
All my ancestors are naked and look fairly solid instead of ghostly; is that intended at this stage of development? I'm running fairly heavily modded in this game, so it could be a conflict; I haven't fiddled with testing that yet, because I want to see what else the ancestors do... and also I got an advantageous map, soooo, I'm keeping it for now. I'll report in again with better details when I've screwed up the control part of the experiment less.
Not working for new savegame. I get errors when my pawns try to do vanilla actions like playing horseshoes or when I try to get room informations: the window is blank and I get errors in log.
Here is a sample of the log for that latest:
Exception processing alert RimWorld.Alert_TatteredApparel: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
at MTW_AncestorSpirits.RoomRoleWorker_ShrineRoom.GetScore (Verse.Room room) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at Verse.Room.<UpdateRoomStatsAndRole>m__641 (Verse.RoomRoleDef x) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at Verse.GenCollection.MaxBy[RoomRoleDef,Single] (IEnumerable`1 source, System.Func`2 selector, IComparer`1 comparer) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at Verse.GenCollection.MaxBy[RoomRoleDef,Single] (IEnumerable`1 source, System.Func`2 selector) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
I am using faction discovery, tried to load both before and after but I get the same bugs.
Quote from: Tammabanana on November 05, 2016, 08:18:07 AM
All my ancestors are naked and look fairly solid instead of ghostly; is that intended at this stage of development?
Yeah, unfortunately. It's on the to-do list!
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 05, 2016, 08:56:08 AM
Not working for new savegame.
I'll take a look, thanks!
Quote from: MinutesToWeekend on November 05, 2016, 11:57:48 AM
Yeah, unfortunately. It's on the to-do list!
Cool! I won't worry about that, then.
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 05, 2016, 08:56:08 AM
Not working for new savegame. I get errors when my pawns try to do vanilla actions like playing horseshoes or when I try to get room informations: the window is blank and I get errors in log.
Here is a sample of the log for that latest:
Exception processing alert RimWorld.Alert_TatteredApparel: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
at MTW_AncestorSpirits.RoomRoleWorker_ShrineRoom.GetScore (Verse.Room room) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at Verse.Room.<UpdateRoomStatsAndRole>m__641 (Verse.RoomRoleDef x) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at Verse.GenCollection.MaxBy[RoomRoleDef,Single] (IEnumerable`1 source, System.Func`2 selector, IComparer`1 comparer) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at Verse.GenCollection.MaxBy[RoomRoleDef,Single] (IEnumerable`1 source, System.Func`2 selector) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
I am using faction discovery, tried to load both before and after but I get the same bugs.
If you could provide more details on what happened here, such as what other mods if any you have running, and the output.log file (found at \RimWorld\RimWorldWin_Data) that would be extremely helpful. I couldn't figure out how to reproduce this issue locally, so I don't have a solid understanding of what happened.
That said I do have a very vague idea of what might work so I put up a patch here https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorSpirits/releases/tag/v0.1c-hotfix-1 that you can try it out, though no assurances on whether it works.
Here is a complete log with random errors (I just played a minute with an existing game...) and my mod list in load order.
Core
HP Lovecraft Storyteller v1.1b A15
VerifyStart
Refactored Work Priorities
Hand Me That Brick
BetterPawnControl
CraftingHysteresis
FluffierThanThou-RW_Blueprints-9cbe574
FluffierThanThou-RW_EnhancedTabs-f5e58d9
FluffierThanThou-RW_Manager-ae03913
HaulingHysteresis
PetFollow
QualityBuilder
TechAdvancing
VeinMiner
747313773
AllowTool
Better Pathfinding
DoIT
kNumbers-0.5.2-A15
AMC(1) DE Surgeries
AMC(1) ExpandedProsthetics&OrganEngineering
AMC(2) ADogSaid
AMC(2) Chemicals & Neutroamine
AMC(2) EmergencyTreatment
AMC(2) Improved Surgery
AMC(2) Medical Training
AMC(2) Realistic Medical System EPOE Version
AMC(3) Compatibility patch_ADog & ISurgery
AMC(3) Compatibility patch_DESurgery & ISurgery
AMC(3) Compatibility patch_EPOE & ISurgery
AMC(4) Compatibility patch_EPOE Realiistic Medical & ISurgery
ED-LaserDrill
ED-ShieldsBasic
Call of Cthulhu - Neutral Factions V1.5 A15
JTBetterHauling
JTMoreHydroponicOptions
JTReplaceWalls
Miscellaneous_Core
Miscellaneous_Incidents
Miscellaneous_MapGenerator
Reasonable Lamps
RTGs
RT_Fuse-A15-1.0.2
RT_PowerSwitch-A15-1.0.2
RT_QuantumStorage-A15-1.0.5
RT_SolarFlareShield-A15-1.0.5
Storage-Crates-a15c-v1.15.3a
StorageSearch-0.15.1.3
TradingPlus
TradingSpot
RW_FacialStuff-0.15.3
Recycle
Rimworld_IndustrialRoller
Miniaturisation
Miscellaneous_Robots
Modular Tables
RimWorld-Achtung-Mod-master
Bulk_Meals
DayNightSwitch
LT_DoorMat
Stonecutting Tweak
Hospitality
Call of Cthulhu - Industrial Age V1.0d A15
Call of Cthulhu - Cosmic Horrors V1.3f A15
RemoteExplosives
No_Mood_Loss_Prisoner_Sold_or_Died
Organthoughts
Furnace
RedistHeat
ThermoelectricGenerator
Faction Discovery
MTW_AncestorSpirits-0.1c-hotfix-1
MTW_AncestorsHospitalityCompatibility-master
[attachment deleted by admin due to age]
Quote from: MinutesToWeekend on November 03, 2016, 12:27:46 AM
If you can I'd like to hear about how you did it. I wanted to make them unharmable because they're ghosts! but I couldn't figure out how to cleanly do it. I ended up just jacking their resistances up really high and shot a few rockets at them and they took no damage, so they *should* be effectively invincible.
They won't drop leather, either, if you somehow manage to kill them. Because they're ghosts.
Thinking about it more I could override the right-click menu so you can't force-attack them, and...maybe somehow remove them from the AI targeting list? Hmm.
I had a couple of manhunter events, in which I hid my colonists behind the walls... but my fearless ancestors wandered outside. They got attacked by a tiger (from the CK animal/plant pack mod, ~18dps) and a barbslinger (Alpha animals, also high dps). It took me a few minutes to realize they were out there and being attacked. They didn't die, but they did go down to like 99980/99999 on the mouseover text. They were "Melee attacking" their aggressor, but not doing any damage.
I sent a ranged colonist to kill the tiger, but she missed once and also hit the ancestor, and the ancestor picked up the "Harmed me" dislike of that colonist.
For the barbslinger, I sent a couple of melee guys instead. Once they started beating up on the barbslinger, it turned its attention to them, and the ancestor... just walked away, la dee da, nothing happening here. And then the barbslinger downed the colonists, so that'll teach me to try to come to my beloved ancestors' defense.
I came away with the following impressions -
- That was pretty funny, but probably not aligned with intentions.
- I kind of like that they're not doing any damage; that seems appropriate for a ghost. It's like their wiggling their fingers in front of the manhunter's face and cooing, I'm not touching you!
- But it would also be kinda cool if the spirits could have spirit weapons, and smite whatever attacks them if they feel like it. They should probably only feel like it if they like you a lot, though. Craftable spirit weapons, late game?
- But they are taking damage, and they are standing there and letting the manhunter hold them in one place, and they're not getting bored with it. I like the idea of maybe having them non-targetable. Some other maybe-options - flee instead of fight? Can they choose to walk away after toying with the beast for a while? Retreat to their anchor so they don't have to deal with this nonsense? Restrict them to the Home area?
- The ghosts' "Harmed me" could use a flavor edit, maybe? Getting shot with an arrow shouldn't have really hurt a ghost, but I could see being highly offended by it anyway. Unless some ghosts get a masochist-like rush out of not actually getting hurt anymore.
- I did see their 99980/99999 rising again afterwards, so they're healing. I think I saw the "In pain" mood debuff, and they did get multiple Crack hediffs. I haven't figured out hediffs yet, so maybe I'm about to spout nonsense - is Crack what happens as a result of making the body part solid? Is there a way to make a flag that is analogous to"solid", but more like "incorporeal", and translate the "Crack"'s effect on that flag into something like "Haha, you can't touch me"? Or maybe - "Wisplike shred", as though a tiny bit of foggy ghost-substance has been detached? Maybe a tattered-clothes-like mood debuff if they get too many? (No idea if that's even possible, just brainstorming.)
An unrelated observation - I prayed for rain once and the ancestors didn't hear/ignored me. It would also be cool if the ancestors were to outright insult you, if their displeasure is high enough. (I think mine may have been pretty high at the time, I lost like 16 magic at the turn of that first season.)
Another unrelated observation - my people are Tribal, but the Ancestors are showing up with colonist-type backstories, like Math prof and Geneticist. Which is kind of cool; suggests that my tribe is descended from the survivors of previous Rimworld crashes. That might be something to play with - older Ancestors getting colonist backstories, but if the player is a tribe, making the backstories gradually reflect more and more tribal culture as the ancestors' ages creep closer to this generation? Again, no idea if that's even possible.
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 06, 2016, 02:32:15 AM
Here is a complete log with random errors (I just played a minute with an existing game...) and my mod list in load order.
That's a lot of mods.
Thanks for the debug log! I think it's due to a *sigh* Hospitality conflict which I'm going to try and reproduce and fix.
Quote from: Tammabanana on November 06, 2016, 08:40:41 AM
[A Cool Story]
...
I came away with the following impressions -
- That was pretty funny, but probably not aligned with intentions.
- I kind of like that they're not doing any damage; that seems appropriate for a ghost. It's like their wiggling their fingers in front of the manhunter's face and cooing, I'm not touching you!
- But it would also be kinda cool if the spirits could have spirit weapons, and smite whatever attacks them if they feel like it. They should probably only feel like it if they like you a lot, though. Craftable spirit weapons, late game?
- But they are taking damage, and they are standing there and letting the manhunter hold them in one place, and they're not getting bored with it. I like the idea of maybe having them non-targetable. Some other maybe-options - flee instead of fight? Can they choose to walk away after toying with the beast for a while? Retreat to their anchor so they don't have to deal with this nonsense? Restrict them to the Home area?
- The ghosts' "Harmed me" could use a flavor edit, maybe? Getting shot with an arrow shouldn't have really hurt a ghost, but I could see being highly offended by it anyway. Unless some ghosts get a masochist-like rush out of not actually getting hurt anymore.
- I did see their 99980/99999 rising again afterwards, so they're healing. I think I saw the "In pain" mood debuff, and they did get multiple Crack hediffs. I haven't figured out hediffs yet, so maybe I'm about to spout nonsense - is Crack what happens as a result of making the body part solid? Is there a way to make a flag that is analogous to"solid", but more like "incorporeal", and translate the "Crack"'s effect on that flag into something like "Haha, you can't touch me"? Or maybe - "Wisplike shred", as though a tiny bit of foggy ghost-substance has been detached? Maybe a tattered-clothes-like mood debuff if they get too many? (No idea if that's even possible, just brainstorming.)
An unrelated observation - I prayed for rain once and the ancestors didn't hear/ignored me. It would also be cool if the ancestors were to outright insult you, if their displeasure is high enough. (I think mine may have been pretty high at the time, I lost like 16 magic at the turn of that first season.)
Another unrelated observation - my people are Tribal, but the Ancestors are showing up with colonist-type backstories, like Math prof and Geneticist. Which is kind of cool; suggests that my tribe is descended from the survivors of previous Rimworld crashes. That might be something to play with - older Ancestors getting colonist backstories, but if the player is a tribe, making the backstories gradually reflect more and more tribal culture as the ancestors' ages creep closer to this generation? Again, no idea if that's even possible.
That's pretty hilarious! It's kind of unintentional, and kind of not.
Ancestors are coded to occasionally tour the *outside* of the colony. The reason for this is to ensure you can't just lock up wall up your Shrine when they visit and thereby prevent them from seeing the horrifying Corpse Fields just outside of your colony, but as a side-effect they'll let Manhunters in. That seems hilarious so I think I'll just keep in. Thinking about it now actually could just wall up your Shrine because I never ended up getting around to implementing the malus for not being able to tour. Hmm. Well that's on the to-do list now.
In terms on Ancestors taking damage, I've fixed that completely on my local and they can no longer take damage. At all. I'm going to try and also edit their behaviours so that if they get attacked by something that's insultable, they'll fight back by constantly insulting them and if the enemy isn't vulnerable to that (mechanoids, animals) they'll just ignore them.
Losing 16 magic is a lot of magic loss! I was trying to go for more around +- 6, so 16 magic means that either they showed up while your colony was on fire and dead people everywhere or I've mis-tuned the numbers.
As far as backstories go, I didn't pay any attention to those at all and, uh, for some reason just never noticed that they show up with colonist backstories. Tunnel vision, I guess. I'll probably end up changing them all to tribal just for consistency eventually.
I had another issue that happens only with hospitality loaded.
When loading a savegame, it says you don't have shrine.
I figure out that the "spawners" list is not loaded properly from the file. If I save the game after building a shrine, the list is present. But if I load and save again, the list is empty.
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 06, 2016, 04:46:19 PM
I had another issue that happens only with hospitality loaded.
When loading a savegame, it says you don't have shrine.
I figure out that the "spawners" list is not loaded properly from the file. If I save the game after building a shrine, the list is present. But if I load and save again, the list is empty.
Is this happening with *only* Hospitality + Ancestors + Compatibility? I looked at the error log and attempted to reproduce the issue by downloading a bunch of mods and starting a new game, saving, quitting and loading, but I can't get it to reproduce locally. When I have only the above 3 it seems to work fine for me. Also I added all the mods I could identify and track down from your list (I have no idea what DoIT is and Google isn't really helpful) and started a new game, saved, loaded, couldn't get the NPE for the RoomWorker. I suspect it has something to do with injecting it into a running game combined with some spooky mod interaction.
Thanks for the report, but unfortunately I'm at a loss as for how to fix your issue there.
New tag up: https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorSpirits/releases/tag/v0.1d
Doesn't fix whatever issues the mod has with Wishmaster's game, but it does include some improvements to the Ancestor pawns:
+ Make Ancestors look ghostly
+ Make Ancestors completely immune to all forms of attack
+ Disable Ancestor reactions to melee attackers
Quote from: MinutesToWeekend on November 06, 2016, 04:42:02 PM
Ancestors are coded to occasionally tour the *outside* of the colony. The reason for this is to ensure you can't just lock up wall up your Shrine when they visit and thereby prevent them from seeing the horrifying Corpse Fields just outside of your colony, but as a side-effect they'll let Manhunters in. That seems hilarious so I think I'll just keep in. Thinking about it now actually could just wall up your Shrine because I never ended up getting around to implementing the malus for not being able to tour. Hmm. Well that's on the to-do list now.
In terms on Ancestors taking damage, I've fixed that completely on my local and they can no longer take damage. At all. I'm going to try and also edit their behaviours so that if they get attacked by something that's insultable, they'll fight back by constantly insulting them and if the enemy isn't vulnerable to that (mechanoids, animals) they'll just ignore them.
That makes sense!
Quote from: MinutesToWeekend on November 06, 2016, 04:42:02 PM
Losing 16 magic is a lot of magic loss! I was trying to go for more around +- 6, so 16 magic means that either they showed up while your colony was on fire and dead people everywhere or I've mis-tuned the numbers.
Trying to think what the colony looked like at the time. It wasn't on fire.
- The shrine room was ~8x8-ish, initially on rough stone flooring, cave walls. The ancestors probably visited twice before I managed to smooth the floors, four times before I put up wood walls. They were mad about their dull shrine room pretty much all season.
- It was early in the game; I had a few pets; I didn't have anybody set to cleaning. I had a wall up to keep predators up. I also dug a storage room into a mountain wall, within my walls, and put animal beds in there, but didn't bother with a door. Later I discovered this made the entire courtyard into a "Barn" room. Between the outdoors dirt, any leathers in the storage room, chunks I hadn't moved outside, the animal filth, and possibly some super-stinky wild corpse flowers from the CK animals/plants mod within my wall, I may have made myself take some serious hits to cleanliness/beauty.
- I think that was my first try, in which I didn't realize the ancestors wanted a shrine room all to themselves, and I put it in the same very-first-roofed-house with my initial get-the-wood-under-a-roof stockpile and colonist beds. So the ancestors were claiming that they didn't have a shrine room at all, and they were pretty mad about it, until I got those beds out.
- Shrine room after that was super bare - I was still trying to set up shop for survival and hadn't made any art or plant pots or anything for them yet.
I got more like -6 in later tries, so it may have had a lot to do with me not fully understanding all the mechanics (both of the mod and the game at large). Maybe the Shrine's description could include some text on how the ancestors prefer their shrine room/what will anger them?
Quote from: MinutesToWeekend on November 06, 2016, 11:20:14 PM
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 06, 2016, 04:46:19 PM
I had another issue that happens only with hospitality loaded.
When loading a savegame, it says you don't have shrine.
I figure out that the "spawners" list is not loaded properly from the file. If I save the game after building a shrine, the list is present. But if I load and save again, the list is empty.
Is this happening with *only* Hospitality + Ancestors + Compatibility? I looked at the error log and attempted to reproduce the issue by downloading a bunch of mods and starting a new game, saving, quitting and loading, but I can't get it to reproduce locally. When I have only the above 3 it seems to work fine for me. Also I added all the mods I could identify and track down from your list (I have no idea what DoIT is and Google isn't really helpful) and started a new game, saved, loaded, couldn't get the NPE for the RoomWorker. I suspect it has something to do with injecting it into a running game combined with some spooky mod interaction.
Thanks for the report, but unfortunately I'm at a loss as for how to fix your issue there.
I just reproduced the issue again with ONLY Hospitality + Ancestors + Compatibility.
-Create a new game
-Build a shrine
-Save then load
-Save and load again (important).
At this point, it says I don't have shrine.
I think this isn't only for this mod combo, similar happen with Emergency power switch and Trade caravan spot.
Sometimes not allways, the settings of the switches and the trade spot are gone.
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 07, 2016, 09:24:23 AM
I just reproduced the issue again with ONLY Hospitality + Ancestors + Compatibility.
-Create a new game
-Build a shrine
-Save then load
-Save and load again (important).
At this point, it says I don't have shrine.
Thanks a ton for taking the time to look at this. I don't think I'll have much time to work on this during the week but when I get more time I'll definitely take a look.
Quote from: MinutesToWeekend on November 07, 2016, 12:25:41 PM
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 07, 2016, 09:24:23 AM
I just reproduced the issue again with ONLY Hospitality + Ancestors + Compatibility.
-Create a new game
-Build a shrine
-Save then load
-Save and load again (important).
At this point, it says I don't have shrine.
Thanks a ton for taking the time to look at this. I don't think I'll have much time to work on this during the week but when I get more time I'll definitely take a look.
You're welcome. I really want to play this mod :).
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 07, 2016, 09:24:23 AM
Quote from: MinutesToWeekend on November 06, 2016, 11:20:14 PM
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 06, 2016, 04:46:19 PM
I had another issue that happens only with hospitality loaded.
When loading a savegame, it says you don't have shrine.
I figure out that the "spawners" list is not loaded properly from the file. If I save the game after building a shrine, the list is present. But if I load and save again, the list is empty.
Is this happening with *only* Hospitality + Ancestors + Compatibility? I looked at the error log and attempted to reproduce the issue by downloading a bunch of mods and starting a new game, saving, quitting and loading, but I can't get it to reproduce locally. When I have only the above 3 it seems to work fine for me. Also I added all the mods I could identify and track down from your list (I have no idea what DoIT is and Google isn't really helpful) and started a new game, saved, loaded, couldn't get the NPE for the RoomWorker. I suspect it has something to do with injecting it into a running game combined with some spooky mod interaction.
Thanks for the report, but unfortunately I'm at a loss as for how to fix your issue there.
I just reproduced the issue again with ONLY Hospitality + Ancestors + Compatibility.
-Create a new game
-Build a shrine
-Save then load
-Save and load again (important).
At this point, it says I don't have shrine.
Yup at this point I had to uninstall mod cause of the very same bug
This is such a cool idea! I've been thinking that the denizens of the rim seem pretty... agnostic? I'd considered trying to make a community church mod but, bar giving people a new place to pray and meditate, it didn't feel like it'd do much. The magic angle really introduces something new!
Tho I'd like to see a church MOD. Actually give a reason to put the marriage spot somewhere
Quote from: SteelRev on November 09, 2016, 07:07:33 PM
Tho I'd like to see a church MOD. Actually give a reason to put the marriage spot somewhere
There is this, which is...kind of a church mod? https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=22672.0 It's not updated for A15 though. It was one of the things I looked at while spinning this mod up.
That's cool, don't really care for the fsm bit of it tho
I'm having trouble with the mod. I can't place "Shrine of the Ancestors". Everytime I place it to be built, once it's finish it disappears. I even tried god mode and placed it but it wont place. "Shrine of the Ancestors" is on the menu but it just wont place. "Shrine Brazier" seems to place just fine.
I followed the instruction on mod order. Not sure what else I could be doing wrong.
Quote from: MinutesToWeekend on November 07, 2016, 12:58:53 AM
New tag up: https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorSpirits/releases/tag/v0.1d
Doesn't fix whatever issues the mod has with Wishmaster's game, but it does include some improvements to the Ancestor pawns:
+ Make Ancestors look ghostly
+ Make Ancestors completely immune to all forms of attack
+ Disable Ancestor reactions to melee attackers
This is working well! I had an ancestor wandering around with a manhunter elephant; the spirit came back to the house with the elephant chasing her. The spirit came inside; the elephant banged on the door for a while, and then drifted off. Ancestor went back outside, and this repeated a few times. I lost a couple of doors and hid my people in their bedrooms until the ancestors led the elephant off somewhere else again, and the living could rebuild the doors. The maddened elephant banging on the doors trying to get at the ghost was pretty funny, and seems appropriate.
Next question: do the ancestors ever sit down, or try to increase their comfort in any way? Mine are complaining that they're Uncomfortable. They sometimes spawn with nonzero comfort, but it seems to be always going downwards, and is often flat-out zero. I haven't seen them avail themselves of the cushy chairs I provided.
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 07, 2016, 09:24:23 AM
I just reproduced the issue again with ONLY Hospitality + Ancestors + Compatibility.
-Create a new game
-Build a shrine
-Save then load
-Save and load again (important).
At this point, it says I don't have shrine.
Quote from: jmababa on November 09, 2016, 07:06:06 AM
Yup at this point I had to uninstall mod cause of the very same bug
Well, drat. I can't get this bug to reproduce locally, even after following the exact same steps. I added in logging locally and it doesn't appear to get loaded improperly. If either of you could provide a save file where this has happened I might be able to look into that.
There was a bug with the Ancestor thought on Shrine Rooms (in some cases you would always get the -20 mood, even if the Shrine was in a room) but in that the Shrine was still recognized as existing, the logic for resolving the rooms was just wrong. I have a fix for that.
Quote from: masterpain on November 10, 2016, 08:53:54 PM
I'm having trouble with the mod. I can't place "Shrine of the Ancestors". Everytime I place it to be built, once it's finish it disappears. I even tried god mode and placed it but it wont place. "Shrine of the Ancestors" is on the menu but it just wont place. "Shrine Brazier" seems to place just fine.
I followed the instruction on mod order. Not sure what else I could be doing wrong.
That is really curious. There's a restriction on placing the Shrine adjacent to other items, which should disallow you from placing it if there are already-existing blockers, but if you place it free of other adjacent items it should work just fine.
There is no case in which it should despawn after being constructed and I don't know of any reason for that to happen. I'm at a loss, sorry. If you post you save and debug.log I might be able to investigate further; otherwise I'm afraid I don't have enough to go on.
Quote from: Tammabanana on November 10, 2016, 08:58:33 PM
This is working well! I had an ancestor wandering around with a manhunter elephant; the spirit came back to the house with the elephant chasing her. The spirit came inside; the elephant banged on the door for a while, and then drifted off. Ancestor went back outside, and this repeated a few times. I lost a couple of doors and hid my people in their bedrooms until the ancestors led the elephant off somewhere else again, and the living could rebuild the doors. The maddened elephant banging on the doors trying to get at the ghost was pretty funny, and seems appropriate.
Next question: do the ancestors ever sit down, or try to increase their comfort in any way? Mine are complaining that they're Uncomfortable. They sometimes spawn with nonzero comfort, but it seems to be always going downwards, and is often flat-out zero. I haven't seen them avail themselves of the cushy chairs I provided.
That's a cool story! Wishmaster has submitted some code related to making Ancestors able to pass through doors without opening them, so I'm going to take a look at that and see if I can integrate it.
As far as comfort goes, I have a local patch that actually just removes comfort from spirits because it doesn't really make sense.
Quote+ Make Ancestors look ghostly
+ Make Ancestors completely immune to all forms of attack
+ Disable Ancestor reactions to melee attackers
About the manhunters,
they only attack human if i remember right, they don't attack animals or mechanoids.
What race does the ancestor got ? Can't you create a race that manhunter don't attack.
Alternate why not have animal spirits as ancestors (tribe style). Maybe you can build differnt animal shrines/totems with different magic effects.
But you only can have one for the colony.
Here I made a patch for this mod.
Ancestors will now cross the doors without opening them and will be ignored but hostiles.
However they are not immune to damages and hostiles will sometime hit them once before leaving them...
It can be loaded in any order.
Download (http://bit.ly/2fq4rRI)
Quote from: Canute on November 11, 2016, 03:19:23 AM
Quote+ Make Ancestors look ghostly
+ Make Ancestors completely immune to all forms of attack
+ Disable Ancestor reactions to melee attackers
About the manhunters,
they only attack human if i remember right, they don't attack animals or mechanoids.
What race does the ancestor got ? Can't you create a race that manhunter don't attack.
Alternate why not have animal spirits as ancestors (tribe style). Maybe you can build differnt animal shrines/totems with different magic effects.
But you only can have one for the colony.
Ancestors are Humanoids because they're, uh, Humanoid ghosts. The ideal behaviour for attacking Ancestors would be that enemies attack them a few times, figure out that they're impossible to hurt, and then leave them alone - but that requires a whole bunch of changes and so might be very far off, if ever.
As far as ghosts of other species and totem animals, that's an interesting idea, but definitely not in scope for this mod!
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 11, 2016, 07:04:54 AM
Here I made a patch for this mod.
[...]
That's pretty nifty!
Bug: mod conflicts with EPOE(I think.). After installing all operations do nothing(Resource waste), butchered bodies don't drop meat and flesh(Clothes still drop).
After building shrine, it dissapears and resources spend to build too.
P.S. Can't open my world that was saved with active "MTW_Ancestors" mod because i can't unload mod-faction.
Quote from: Syraxen on November 12, 2016, 12:17:14 PM
Bug: mod conflicts with EPOE(I think.). After installing all operations do nothing(Resource waste), butchered bodies don't drop meat and flesh(Clothes still drop).
After building shrine, it dissapears and resources spend to build too.
I added EPOE in the middle of an existing Ancestors game, and after the Shrine was already built. My EPOE is loading later than Ancestors, I believe. Not seeing this bug in that particular configuration.
Quote from: Syraxen on November 12, 2016, 12:17:14 PM
Bug: mod conflicts with EPOE(I think.). After installing all operations do nothing(Resource waste), butchered bodies don't drop meat and flesh(Clothes still drop).
After building shrine, it dissapears and resources spend to build too.
P.S. Can't open my world that was saved with active "MTW_Ancestors" mod because i can't unload mod-faction.
You're the second person to report that the Shrine just sort of self-deletes after placement, though. Did you load the mod into an already existing game, or start a new one?
As for EPOE, I'm running a game right now and EPOE is working just fine with it, so I'm unsure what the issue is. As Tammabanana said I do load it *after* my mod. I can try to reproduce this, but I haven't been able to reproduce Wishmaster's issue even following his steps, so I'm not confident in that.
Can you upload the save file and the output log? You can find the saves in "C:\Users\[Your User]\AppData\LocalLow\Ludeon Studios\RimWorld\Saves" and the output.log in "[Your Rimworld Install Location]\RimWorld\RimWorldWin_Data\output_log.txt" - and if you're running a set of mods that isn't just EPOE/Ancestors, it would be really helpful to also have the ModsConfig file, found in "C:\Users\[Your User]\AppData\LocalLow\Ludeon Studios\RimWorld\Config"
Quote from: MinutesToWeekend on November 12, 2016, 06:44:19 PM
You're the second person to report that the Shrine just sort of self-deletes after placement, though. Did you load the mod into an already existing game, or start a new one?
As for EPOE, I'm running a game right now and EPOE is working just fine with it, so I'm unsure what the issue is. As Tammabanana said I do load it *after* my mod. I can try to reproduce this, but I haven't been able to reproduce Wishmaster's issue even following his steps, so I'm not confident in that.
Can you upload the save file and the output log? You can find the saves in "C:\Users\[Your User]\AppData\LocalLow\Ludeon Studios\RimWorld\Saves" and the output.log in "[Your Rimworld Install Location]\RimWorld\RimWorldWin_Data\output_log.txt" - and if you're running a set of mods that isn't just EPOE/Ancestors, it would be really helpful to also have the ModsConfig file, found in "C:\Users\[Your User]\AppData\LocalLow\Ludeon Studios\RimWorld\Config"
http://rgho.st/6LpG7yd5X - Log, savegame and modconfig.
I know that i have giant pack of mods, but before installin Ancestors it was stable without issues.
P.S. In exsisting game after 4 years from start.(Or 5, idk.)
Quote from: Syraxen on November 12, 2016, 07:46:43 PM
http://rgho.st/6LpG7yd5X - Log, savegame and modconfig.
I know that i have giant pack of mods, but before installin Ancestors it was stable without issues.
P.S. In exsisting game after 4 years from start.(Or 5, idk.)
Firefox thinks that site is exceptionally sketchy. Ended up opening it in a VM.
You weren't kidding about having a lot of mods. Sorry I wasn't specific enough when I asked for the save file - the save file appears to be from before you loaded up the mod; the most helpful thing would be for if you saved it in-progress. Likewise, by the time you uploaded the output log, you appear to have re-started the game, so it has info on what mods it's loading and the load process, but not information on what was happening in your game.
However, the info you provided was still super helpful! I can figure out a few things from this. The primary thing that appears to be happening is that the injector isn't properly injecting the MapComponent that it needs for the mod to work, so it errors out when you try and play it. That matches up with what people have been saying about the Shrine vanishing on construction, and gives me something to go off of! Thanks for taking the time!
Also incidentally, your game things you have two versions of my mod for some reason, v0.1b and v0.1d. You appear to be using Hospitality + Ancestors, which will have subtle errors on pawn generation - you'll need this (https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorsHospitalityCompatibility) to make them behave as expected.
E: I looked at it more and...it looks like somehow the injector isn't being initialized. I have no idea why it isn't working but that looks like what's happening.
New tag: https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorSpirits/releases/tag/v0.1e-hotfix-1
Mostly contains bugfixes and better feedback to the player.
+ Fix Ancestors thinking they have no Shrine Room when they in fact do
+ Fill error that occurs when Ancestors despawn after Shrine destruction
+ Remove comfort from Ancestors
+ Improve feedback on the visit map condition popup to add estimated stay length
+ Improve feedback on the visit map condition popup to add mood descriptions
+ Add mechanisms to prevent Ancestors from overstaying their estimated time
+ Add warning if mod loaded to existing game without having Faction Discovery
Syraxen, I'm fairly sure I have an idea of what's happening (fails to load the injector), but not why, or how to fix it. Which is better than not knowing what's happening, at least! Thanks for the error report.
One possible way to very definitely fix this would be to use CCL's injector instead of the kludge that's currently in place (and apparently very unreliable). However I'm not sure of the timeline on CCL.
Quote from: MinutesToWeekend on November 13, 2016, 05:05:25 PM
New tag: https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorSpirits/releases/tag/v0.1e-hotfix-1
Mostly contains bugfixes and better feedback to the player.
+ Fix Ancestors thinking they have no Shrine Room when they in fact do
+ Fill error that occurs when Ancestors despawn after Shrine destruction
+ Remove comfort from Ancestors
+ Improve feedback on the visit map condition popup to add estimated stay length
+ Improve feedback on the visit map condition popup to add mood descriptions
+ Add mechanisms to prevent Ancestors from overstaying their estimated time
+ Add warning if mod loaded to existing game without having Faction Discovery
Syraxen, I'm fairly sure I have an idea of what's happening (fails to load the injector), but not why, or how to fix it. Which is better than not knowing what's happening, at least! Thanks for the error report.
One possible way to very definitely fix this would be to use CCL's injector instead of the kludge that's currently in place (and apparently very unreliable). However I'm not sure of the timeline on CCL.
Unloaded all mods except Ancestor, Faction Discovery and EPOE and this:http://imgur.com/a/Y4oGk
Another existing colony but vanilla at start.
P.S.All fine in new colony with all mods. Maybe you now how to delete your mod faction from my existing colony to disable it?
Quote from: Syraxen on November 13, 2016, 07:02:13 PM
Unloaded all mods except Ancestor, Faction Discovery and EPOE and this:http://imgur.com/a/Y4oGk
Another existing colony but vanilla at start.
P.S.All fine in new colony with all mods. Maybe you now how to delete your mod faction from my existing colony to disable it?
Unfortunately I don't know how to safely remove my mod from an ongoing save. Sorry. I should put a warning into the intro about loading it into an ongoing game.
I just start a new colony with the v0.1e-hotfix-1 and got the problem, after loading a safegame, the shrineroom is no shrineroom anymore.
The shrine still exist, and the brazier are connected to him, but the room isn't a shrine room anymore.
[attachment deleted by admin due to age]
Quote from: Canute on November 14, 2016, 01:28:34 PM
I just start a new colony with the v0.1e-hotfix-1 and got the problem, after loading a safegame, the shrineroom is no shrineroom anymore.
The shrine still exist, and the brazier are connected to him, but the room isn't a shrine room anymore.
Well. Drat. Could you post your savegame, if that's not too much trouble? The NPE check I put in doesn't appear to be working, but that shouldn't change anything to do with new colonies.
E: Huh you know what, I didn't actually build the DLL in that previous hotfix tag. Here's one with the DLL built properly, though despite the NPE being fixed I am not super optimistic about it actually addressing the problem: https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorSpirits/releases/tag/v0.1e-hotfix-2
Nope, that didn't do anything.
And the mod is working well so far, beside the ancestored are very unpleased because of the missing shrine every load.
And could you please keep the name of the mod folder each version ?
[attachment deleted by admin due to age]
Ok, i test a bit out but didn't found a reason why the shrine didn't made it to the shrine room.
Made just a new colony with only your mod, build with dev. tools a small shrine room save and load, and the shrine room is still a shrine room.
Activate some more mods, new colony, shrine room still ok.
Looks like i will start a new colony and wait if it happen again during the gameplay. The old ancestors was very displeased at me anyway -25 magic.
Just tried to add this mod to my colony and got this error:
Exception processing alert RimWorld.Alert_TatteredApparel: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
at MTW_AncestorSpirits.RoomRoleWorker_ShrineRoom.GetScore (Verse.Room room) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at Verse.Room.<UpdateRoomStatsAndRole>m__641 (Verse.RoomRoleDef x) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at Verse.GenCollection.MaxBy[RoomRoleDef,Single] (IEnumerable`1 source, System.Func`2 selector, IComparer`1 comparer) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at Verse.GenCollection.MaxBy[RoomRoleDef,Single] (IEnumerable`1 source, System.Func`2 selector) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at Verse.Room.UpdateRoomStatsAndRole () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at Verse.Room.GetStat (Verse.RoomStatDef roomStat) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at Hospitality.Detouring.ThoughtWorker_SleepingRoomImpressiveness.CheckRoom (RimWorld.ThoughtWorker_SleepingRoomImpressiveness _this, Verse.Room room) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at Hospitality.Detouring.ThoughtWorker_SleepingRoomImpressiveness.CurrentStateInternal (RimWorld.ThoughtWorker_SleepingRoomImpressiveness _this, Verse.Pawn p) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at Hospitality.Detouring.ThoughtWorker_BedroomImpressiveness.CurrentStateInternal (RimWorld.ThoughtWorker_BedroomImpressiveness _this, Verse.Pawn p) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at RimWorld.ThoughtWorker.CurrentState (Verse.Pawn p) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at RimWorld.SituationalThoughtHandler.TryCreateSituationalThought (RimWorld.ThoughtDef def) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at RimWorld.SituationalThoughtHandler.CheckRecalculateSituationalThoughtsAffectingMoodState () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at RimWorld.SituationalThoughtHandler.get_SituationalThoughtsAffectingMood () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at RimWorld.ThoughtHandler.get_Thoughts () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at RimWorld.Alert_TatteredApparel+<TatteredClothesWearers>c__Iterator146.MoveNext () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Linq.Enumerable.First[Pawn] (IEnumerable`1 source, System.Func`2 predicate, Fallback fallback) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at System.Linq.Enumerable.FirstOrDefault[Pawn] (IEnumerable`1 source) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at RimWorld.Alert_TatteredApparel.get_Report () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at RimWorld.Alert.get_Active () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at RimWorld.AlertsReadout.AlertsReadoutUpdate () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
Modlist:
Core, Miscellaneous 'CORE', Colony Manager, Stonecutting Tweak, Modular Tables, Blueprints, Animals Tab, ED-Laser Drill, ED-Embrasures, Animal Hide Working, Misc. Robots, RTGs, Tilled Soil, [T] MoreFloors, Expanded Prosthetics and Organ Engineering, NoMoreLazyPawns, LT-DoorMat, Apparello 2, Infused, Numbers, Mad Skills, QualityBuilder, PetFollow, MiningCo. MMS, DE Surgeries, PowerSwitch, Auto Seller, Storage Search, RT Fuse, RT Power Switch, RT Quantum Storage, RT Solar Flare Shield, Repair Workbench, Allow Tool, Medical Training, FishIndustry, More Vanilla Turrets, Faction Discovery A15, RedistHeat, A Dog Said..., MiningCo. ForceField, Firefoam Grenades, Bulk Meals, Realistic Darkness V1.2, Helpful Lights and Miscellany V1.4, Enlighten, Chemicals & Neutroamine, LessLethals_Stock, Rumours And Deception, [sd] chicken nest, Vein Miner, Haulpriority_lite, Hospitality A15, MTW_AncestorSpirits, and MTW_AncestorsHospitalityCompatibility
I tried to replicate it with only Hospitality, AncestorSpirits and the compatility patch, but i was unable to do so.
For the save file and output log see the attachment.
[attachment deleted by admin due to age]
Quote from: Canute on November 15, 2016, 03:17:48 AM
And could you please keep the name of the mod folder each version ?
Yeah, I can do that going forward.
Quote from: Der Failer on November 15, 2016, 09:43:21 AM
Just tried to add this mod to my colony and got this error:
[...]
I tried to replicate it with only Hospitality, AncestorSpirits and the compatility patch, but i was unable to do so.
For the save file and output log see the attachment.
Thanks a ton for this! I'll take a look.
I'm considering just pulling the mod until I can figure out what's going on with this. Don't want to put out a mod that only works half the time.
Quote from: MinutesToWeekend on November 15, 2016, 09:37:51 PM
I'm considering just pulling the mod until I can figure out what's going on with this. Don't want to put out a mod that only works half the time.
Paste "Alpha" at the end of the name of the mod, so you keep getting such valuable feedback from users. Don't just outright take it out.
I was waiting for it to be more polished to use it tough, so no feedback from me for now xD
Thank you for keeping up the good work!
Quote from: Der Failer on November 15, 2016, 09:43:21 AM
Just tried to add this mod to my colony and got this error:
[...]
For the save file and output log see the attachment.
Thanks a ton for the save! Got it working, though it required a significant amount of messing with the save. I managed to load it and tried to add my mod and it failed! Sweet! I can actually take a look at this now.
On a completely unrelated tangent you have a huge colony, it's very impressive.
Quote from: faltonico on November 15, 2016, 11:27:03 PM
Paste "Alpha" at the end of the name of the mod, so you keep getting such valuable feedback from users. Don't just outright take it out.
I was waiting for it to be more polished to use it tough, so no feedback from me for now xD
Thanks for the tip, I'll do that.
Good news, everyone! I've fixed the error with the injection of the MapComponent! This means that all those save games it failed to load into before should work properly now. Also from this release onwards I'll fix the name of the folder.
New tag: https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorSpirits/releases/tag/v0.1f
+ Fix error when loading into slow-loading games
Try that out on the games it was failing to load into before (you'll still need Faction Discovery) and see how it works for you.
Quote from: MinutesToWeekend on November 16, 2016, 02:04:58 AM
Good news, everyone! I've fixed the error with the injection of the MapComponent! This means that all those save games it failed to load into before should work properly now. Also from this release onwards I'll fix the name of the folder.
New tag: https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorSpirits/releases/tag/v0.1f
+ Fix error when loading into slow-loading games
Try that out on the games it was failing to load into before (you'll still need Faction Discovery) and see how it works for you.
BEST! Existing save fixed and mod work fine. Thx.
Quote from: MinutesToWeekend on November 16, 2016, 02:04:58 AM
Good news, everyone! I've fixed the error with the injection of the MapComponent! This means that all those save games it failed to load into before should work properly now. Also from this release onwards I'll fix the name of the folder.
New tag: https://github.com/MoyTW/MTW_AncestorSpirits/releases/tag/v0.1f
+ Fix error when loading into slow-loading games
Try that out on the games it was failing to load into before (you'll still need Faction Discovery) and see how it works for you.
Is that the bug I told you about that happens with hospitality?
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 16, 2016, 11:07:06 AM
Is that the bug I told you about that happens with hospitality?
I suspect it may be but am not sure. The bug occurs because actually not due to any specific combination of mods, but because of a timing issue, so what apparently worked for it to be reproduced on your end didn't happen on mine. However the symptoms seem extremely similar.
So, that's a "probably, maybe" right there.
I didn't :(
The only problem I've seen with this mod so far...using a lot! of mods... is pretty funny actually.
Guests (visitors, caravans... etc) and their pets, immediately and without provocation, attack the first spirit they see.
They will beat and beat on the spirits until the guest either passes out(once) or their stay is up and they leave.
Weird part is their thoughts, and the thoughts of the spirits towards them, are all positive.
Biggest problem is if I don't interact with the pawns before they start the fight, I can't trade or recruit them until they have decided to leave and break off for the borders....
I'm guessing this is a Hospitality compatibility error, and yes I do have the patch.
Load order is Hospitality, spirits, then compatibility patch.
Love this mod and I strangely love this bug, it's hilarious.
My guests don't attack the spirits. But all raiders did so far.
I can use the ancestors as punching bags, while i can shoot from behind.
But i think MinutesToWeekend forget to set the relationship to other faction of the hidden Ancestor faction.
Can't you set the ancestor faction to be friendly/neutral to all known and new discovered factions ?
Just had my ancestors take on the brunt of an infestation, so my colonists snuck up and laid waste to them without a scratch.
But anyway to remove the -2billion magic points I have since installing and reinstalling the update?
I made a
Quote from: Canute on November 16, 2016, 03:47:24 PM
My guests don't attack the spirits. But all raiders did so far.
I can use the ancestors as punching bags, while i can shoot from behind.
But i think MinutesToWeekend forget to set the relationship to other faction of the hidden Ancestor faction.
Can't you set the ancestor faction to be friendly/neutral to all known and new discovered factions ?
I made a patch for that, with the approval of MinutesToWeekend
http://bit.ly/2fq4rRI
All hostiles will ignore ancestors. They can also cross doors without opening them, handy when a manhunter pack is here.
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 16, 2016, 01:51:32 PM
I didn't :(
Well, drat. Can you post the save?
Quote from: Seinne on November 16, 2016, 02:43:41 PM
The only problem I've seen with this mod so far...using a lot! of mods... is pretty funny actually.
Guests (visitors, caravans... etc) and their pets, immediately and without provocation, attack the first spirit they see.
They will beat and beat on the spirits until the guest either passes out(once) or their stay is up and they leave.
Weird part is their thoughts, and the thoughts of the spirits towards them, are all positive.
Biggest problem is if I don't interact with the pawns before they start the fight, I can't trade or recruit them until they have decided to leave and break off for the borders....
I'm guessing this is a Hospitality compatibility error, and yes I do have the patch.
Load order is Hospitality, spirits, then compatibility patch.
Love this mod and I strangely love this bug, it's hilarious.
That's legit hilarious, but it's definitely not supposed to be happening. I'll take a look at synchronizing faction approvals; factions should have the same approval towards your Ancestors as they have to you, but like Canute says I never actually implemented that.
Quote from: Seinne on November 16, 2016, 03:55:36 PM
Just had my ancestors take on the brunt of an infestation, so my colonists snuck up and laid waste to them without a scratch.
But anyway to remove the -2billion magic points I have since installing and reinstalling the update?
Did you get the magic points from angry visits? You should start with 6 when you install the mod, and they should only tick down when the season passes; if you lost a ton of magic from updating the version that seems like a bug.
Anyways, if you want to change your magic value, you can edit your save file, but otherwise you'll just have to wait for them to visit and raise it that way. You can find it stored in your save file as <currentMagic>YOUR MAGIC</currentMagic>; set that to whatever you like and reload and you're done.
There is the save game.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cqp3t0ts5dlsk3e/RimWorld_savegame_with_ancestors_bug_wishmaster.zip?dl=0
But I guess this happens even on a fresh savegame with only hospitality + ancestors + patch, just like I tried before your update...
Quote from: Seinne on November 16, 2016, 03:55:36 PM
Just had my ancestors take on the brunt of an infestation, so my colonists snuck up and laid waste to them without a scratch.
But anyway to remove the -2billion magic points I have since installing and reinstalling the update?
Did you get the magic points from angry visits? You should start with 6 when you install the mod, and they should only tick down when the season passes; if you lost a ton of magic from updating the version that seems like a bug.
Anyways, if you want to change your magic value, you can edit your save file, but otherwise you'll just have to wait for them to visit and raise it that way. You can find it stored in your save file as <currentMagic>YOUR MAGIC</currentMagic>; set that to whatever you like and reload and you're done.
[/quote]
No, it has to be a bug, I wasn't exaggerating just wasn't being precise. My magic value is something like -2,453,233,444. I've seen it happen twice now, once when I try and move a shrine and once when I uninstalled and reinstalled your mod with a shrine in place.
Bug Reports:
1) Male animals can become pregnant from the "bestowing a child upon ____" event. My six-year-old male cat named Cairo is now pregnant O.o
2) Wild animals will hunt spirits when hungry. I spent ~5 minutes watching a wild timber wolf bite a spirit repeatedly. The spirit, not counting as a colonist, didn't receive help from the turrets nearby. The 9999 HP helped with its health, though. It never went before 99995 health as it would regenerate faster than the wolf could hit it.
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 17, 2016, 06:47:04 AM
There is the save game.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cqp3t0ts5dlsk3e/RimWorld_savegame_with_ancestors_bug_wishmaster.zip?dl=0
But I guess this happens even on a fresh savegame with only hospitality + ancestors + patch, just like I tried before your update...
I'll take a look, thanks.
Quote from: Seinne on November 17, 2016, 09:47:14 AM
No, it has to be a bug, I wasn't exaggerating just wasn't being precise. My magic value is something like -2,453,233,444. I've seen it happen twice now, once when I try and move a shrine and once when I uninstalled and reinstalled your mod with a shrine in place.
That's pretty strange. That appears to be above INT_MAX and...uh, shouldn't be possible? Can you send me the save?
Quote from: Darkmark8910 on November 17, 2016, 02:20:50 PM
Bug Reports:
1) Male animals can become pregnant from the "bestowing a child upon ____" event. My six-year-old male cat named Cairo is now pregnant O.o
2) Wild animals will hunt spirits when hungry. I spent ~5 minutes watching a wild timber wolf bite a spirit repeatedly. The spirit, not counting as a colonist, didn't receive help from the turrets nearby. The 9999 HP helped with its health, though. It never went before 99995 health as it would regenerate faster than the wolf could hit it.
1) Obviously the magic of the Ancestors is just that powerful!
...I'll add in a check for that.
2) Hmm, yeah, that's problematic. I'm not gonna fix that now, though; that'll be addressed when I roll around to targeting. You can probably use Wishmaster's supplementary patch if you like, though I haven't tested it myself with that case.
Incidentally in the newest version Ancestors should be literally immune to all damage, instead of just having super high armor and regenerating health.
I edited the save file before I read you wanted it. If it happens again I'll send you a copy somehow.
Quote from: MinutesToWeekend on November 17, 2016, 09:10:21 PM
Quote from: Darkmark8910 on November 17, 2016, 02:20:50 PM
Bug Reports:
1) Male animals can become pregnant from the "bestowing a child upon ____" event. My six-year-old male cat named Cairo is now pregnant O.o
1) Obviously the magic of the Ancestors is just that powerful!
...I'll add in a check for that.
Time to make all the yaoi fangirls squirm by only letting the boys get the goodies ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Update: Cairo the Manly Man Cat gave birth. He has three daughters now....
Another pregancy problem: Ancestors made my cobra pregnant.... but the cobra breed with eggs !
Also when I tried to petition Bless Crops, my colonist seem stuck on the shrine (I don't very long to be honest). So I draft and undraft and it says I just spent 9 magic (instead of 1 !), which is as much as brazier I have.
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 21, 2016, 01:13:33 PM
Another pregancy problem: Ancestors made my cobra pregnant.... but the cobra breed with eggs !
...I didn't think of that possibility. I'll see if I can make them be, uh, pregnant with eggs? Lay eggs? Or maybe just exclude egg-layers.
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 21, 2016, 06:13:54 PM
Also when I tried to petition Bless Crops, my colonist seem stuck on the shrine (I don't very long to be honest). So I draft and undraft and it says I just spent 9 magic (instead of 1 !), which is as much as brazier I have.
That's definitely intentional, though it may be badly explained. There should be a tutorial message on it. Basically, you can spend more or less magic, depending on how badly you want the ritual. Base chance is 80%, .5 is 60%, and 1.5 is full. How much magic you spend is equal to the number of lit braziers.
So, for things like crop blessings, you might want to devote half magic, since on average you'll come out ahead just repeatedly trying it. However for smiting enemies, which you really want to work, you might want to devote the full 1.5 since you need lightning and you need it now.
As far as it immediately firing, uh, that's a bug. And the petitions have variable length. I'll put up a progress bar and handle cancellations more gracefully.
So that means I would need roundup (1*1.5) = 2 braziers to be 100% sure to get my crop blessing ?
I didn't know that chance thing. But what's you want to control how much you spend ? and isn't most of my magic wasted when I spend 9 points for crops blessing?
I think too, there need to be a control about the prayer.
I though the braziers are just how much max. magic i can use, i just notice now, i can switch them off.
At last there need a better description about the shrine and prayers.
First off, the mod is really entertaining and i think it´s great that you are so passionate to constantly work on fixing those bugs (laughed my ass off when the hungry panther died from starvation trying to kill an ancestor) and making process day by day. Many thanks for that. It´s really fun to use and i´m using it alot, mostly the call rain prayer to extinguish burning loot from torched raids. One thing about the mod concerns me though: in my opinion magic is too easy to get. in my current playthrough i basically put the shrine into a 10x10 room with marble walls and wooden flooring -> done. Never touched the room again, ancestors are satisfied and i get to use the massively strong prayer bonuses (remove toxic rain -> no problem) without any further investment. I would suggest making magic generation a work bill (that maybe generates joy?) and while we are at it i would suggest (you know what comes now, dont you) adding a sacrificial table to..well.. sacrifice...stuff..like maybe..wool? ;D
that aside i also had problems with EPOE on the new playthrough -> some bills couldnt be finished, the crafting process stopped at 0 or -10. Repeatedly restarting the same bill resulted in sometimes finishing a product. sounds weird to connect the issue to your mod, but i didnt change my mods besides adding AS (though theres the possibility that some got updated by steam).
PS: First post in any game forum ever :D i really like it here
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 22, 2016, 05:05:15 AM
So that means I would need roundup (1*1.5) = 2 braziers to be 100% sure to get my crop blessing ?
I didn't know that chance thing. But what's you want to control how much you spend ? and isn't most of my magic wasted when I spend 9 points for crops blessing?
Quote from: Canute on November 22, 2016, 05:58:36 AM
I think too, there need to be a control about the prayer.
I though the braziers are just how much max. magic i can use, i just notice now, i can switch them off.
At last there need a better description about the shrine and prayers.
You control the amount of magic spent on each petition by lighting/dousing the attached braziers. You can have as many attached braziers as you want, but only the number of *lit* braziers is count when determining magic. I'm not sure it's explained well enough; I made mention in the tutorial but either it's unclear, or it didn't fire, or more likely nobody ever reads tutorials. I may add in an upper bound check to make sure somebody doesn't accidentally burn 9 magic when they meant to burn 1 though.
The intent of the whole system is to kind of replicate the whole "setting up for a ritual" feeling - you want to pray for good fortune so you go in and light the incense before you pray, kind of thing. Dunno how successful it is at that.
Quote from: Mekhet on November 22, 2016, 07:10:22 AM
[...]
One thing about the mod concerns me though: in my opinion magic is too easy to get. in my current playthrough i basically put the shrine into a 10x10 room with marble walls and wooden flooring -> done. Never touched the room again, ancestors are satisfied and i get to use the massively strong prayer bonuses (remove toxic rain -> no problem) without any further investment. I would suggest making magic generation a work bill (that maybe generates joy?) and while we are at it i would suggest (you know what comes now, dont you) adding a sacrificial table to..well.. sacrifice...stuff..like maybe..wool? ;D
that aside i also had problems with EPOE on the new playthrough -> some bills couldnt be finished, the crafting process stopped at 0 or -10. Repeatedly restarting the same bill resulted in sometimes finishing a product. sounds weird to connect the issue to your mod, but i didnt change my mods besides adding AS (though theres the possibility that some got updated by steam).
PS: First post in any game forum ever :D i really like it here
Hi! Welcome to the forums. Glad to hear you're liking the mod.
As far as magic being too easy to get/too powerful, that's a balancing thing which I haven't really addressed yet because I'm not even in the "Features are roughly complete" stage. I was toying around with adding a sacrifice-based system, but am thinking more on it.
As far as EPOE and conflicts go, that's very strange! I've been playing my own game with EPOE enabled, as well as my mod, and haven't had any issues I've noticed. Can you upload the save file and the output log? You can find the saves in "C:\Users\[Your User]\AppData\LocalLow\Ludeon Studios\RimWorld\Saves" and the output.log in "[Your Rimworld Install Location]\RimWorld\RimWorldWin_Data\output_log.txt" - and if you're running a set of mods that isn't just EPOE/Ancestors, it would be really helpful to also have the ModsConfig file, found in "C:\Users\[Your User]\AppData\LocalLow\Ludeon Studios\RimWorld\Config"
Just a heads up - I'm not going to be working on this probably until after a couple weeks into December, so you won't see any updates in the short term.
QuoteYou control the amount of magic spent on each petition by lighting/dousing the attached braziers. You can have as many attached braziers as you want, but only the number of *lit* braziers is count when determining magic. I'm not sure it's explained well enough; I made mention in the tutorial but either it's unclear, or it didn't fire, or more likely nobody ever reads tutorials. I may add in an upper bound check to make sure somebody doesn't accidentally burn 9 magic when they meant to burn 1 though.
Put a similar text at the description of the shrine.
Yes you are right, i never read/used the tutorial.
And another suggestion, after the prayer is finished (successful or not) the gods should turn off all braziers.
Quote...sacrifice...
I think a lot of ancestor-revering societies don't "sacrifice" to the ancestors so much as they offer them gifts - favorite foods left at the shrine, flowers left on a grave.
IMO, the ancestor mechanics could benefit from loving bribery.
Just wanted to echo the above bug reports. I've been hit with both the shrine 'disappearing' on save load and the -2 billion magic. I'll try to give as much detail as I can, but I didn't debug it too deeply.
Shrine Bug
The shrine bug was completely unavoidable in my play through. It happened at every single load. Unfortunately, I was playing Permadeath so playing with save/load techniques wasn't in the cards. The shrine did not physically disappear, only the room stopped 'seeing' it and would revert to 'Room' and not 'Shrine Room'. This would make matters worse if an Ancestral Visit was active at the moment of saving. The "Shrine has been destroyed!' alert would sound and they would be pissed about it.
One way to sort-of counter it was to enable 'pause on load' in the options (should be default in my opinion... :-P) and hop into dev-mode. Destroy the bugged shrine then god-mode a new one in its place. If no ancestors are currently spawned, it seemed to work well (though tedious). If they are around they didn't always seem to despawn if I replaced it this way. I think it might have reset the visit timer because hovering over "Ancestral Visit" event would read out "They should have left by now!" or something to this effect. But they would almost always leave unhappy. :-(
Negative Magic
The colossal neg-magic bug only hit me once. I have not been able to repeat it and I'm not 100% sure when it happened/triggered. I just noticed it at some point when checking the shrine so I edited the value in my save back to the defaulted 6 and never saw it again. It was pretty early in the game, first or second season if I remember correctly. Almost looked like some sort of overflow error, but I'm not familiar with even what language Rimworld is built on. Sorry I don't have any more then that, but I wanted to at least add a second report that it has happened.
Mod List
I am playing with a decent amount of mods, EPOE and Hospitality among them. I also had to two patches mentioned up-thread. If a full mod list and save file can be of any use, I'll be happy to post them.
Anyways, it's sadly become unplayable. The shrine bug has made it almost impossible to quit the playing if I want to maintain any amount of magic. It's just constant punishment in the form of mood debuffs and blights. So, I've stripped my save of everything pertaining to this mod so I can continue without it. That said, it is a really neat concept. I was looking forward to replacing Tech with Mysticism in my Tribal/Medieval colony. I will definitely give it another shot once you get a chance to work out the bugs. (^_^) b
Quote from: Tammabanana on November 24, 2016, 06:18:48 PM
Quote...sacrifice...
I think a lot of ancestor-revering societies don't "sacrifice" to the ancestors so much as they offer them gifts
Mayans LOVED "to gift" the blood and hearts of humans to their ancestors ;)
Thats maybe the reason why mayan's didn't exist anymore ? :-)
Quote from: Canute on November 30, 2016, 05:29:03 AM
Thats maybe the reason why mayan's didn't exist anymore ? :-)
Nope, they decided not to sacrifice enough kitties, so their ancestors got angry and send them plagues that decimated their cities.
Why do ancestors are always present ? as soon as a visit ends, another begins instantly. Is it supposed to happen ?
Also I realized it was much easier to satisfy ancestors since the latest update, isn't a bit too much now ? I gain magic even if I have don't have any embellishment
I though it depends on the shrine room.
A more impressive shrine room give more magic in return.
Quote from: Wishmaster on November 30, 2016, 05:06:44 PM
Why do ancestors are always present ? as soon as a visit ends, another begins instantly. Is it supposed to happen ?
Also I realized it was much easier to satisfy ancestors since the latest update, isn't a bit too much now ? I gain magic even if I have don't have any embellishment
Serial visits are not supposed to be happening. There's probably a bug that prevents them from returning to their shrines.
As for satisfying Ancestors the "New colony bonus" thought apparently is always present, which gives a perma-20-point boost. I think it's because they're in their own faction.
Unfortunately, it looks like this mod has a serious set of potentially breaking bugs, and there's a game jam competition for November that I'm joining, so I'm going to hold development on this mod until at least the start of the new year. I'm tired now since I just got back home from a conference, but sometime later this week I'll pull down most of the OP, since I don't feel comfortable putting up a mod which is both on hiatus and seems to have serious bugs.
Now that Faction Discovery is updated to Alpha 16 will this be updated as well?
Hey MinutesToWeekend, I kind of curious if you plan to update this mod.
I honestly liked it and would love to see it for A16.
oh yes, I would like to try out an updated version, too! ;D
Does it conflict with CoC Cults or can there be a fully blown belief-war?