Hi everyone,
Im putting this here in the hopes it gets seen by more people, we are getting a lot of issues recently about hashing and other wierdness.
Please do not use things like building_base def from core, you should be defining ALL abstract defs inside your mod, do not depend on any external ones, yes they may work but what is happening is all the values are using default values and not the one ones you think its using, this causes LOTS of issues. DO NOT DO IT.
So again if you have a "base" def, it MUST be defined inside your mod, spread this to everyone, it causes no end of issues and is hard to track down.
Spread the word.
More details on this topic can be found in the post I did a several months ago.
MODDERS PLEASE READ, Abstracts and how they should be used. (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=19499)
I'm trying to repeat this to all as well
Maybe you should start a MOD-inspector/police.
Any new mod that get released should tested if it fit into the rules.
If not the topic should be moved back to the unfinished area.
Maybe create a test-mod, this test-mod should cause errors if it get activated together with the other one.
Quote from: CanuteMaybe you should start a MOD-inspector/police.
I don't think it's the communities responsibility to error check peoples mods.
Modders should be doing everything they can to properly test their mods and make sure they are correct and have as few potential conflicts as possible such as modifying core assets without
good reasons and not just "I don't really know what I'm doing and this is a work around to make it work".
Bumping this. It seems important.
Doesn't really need bumping (or PSAs) as the main thread explaining all this (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=19499.0) has been stickied for months.
You think people read stickies.....they are invisible to most users....trust me i do UX for a living.
Quote from: skullywag on November 16, 2016, 03:12:45 AM
You think people read stickies.....they are invisible to most users....trust me i do UX for a living.
but they're so dry and dull, skully!
There has to be a better way!
(http://i.imgur.com/T48NJNT.gif)
Quote from: 1000101 on November 15, 2016, 12:44:22 PM
Quote from: CanuteMaybe you should start a MOD-inspector/police.
I don't think it's the communities responsibility to error check peoples mods.
Modders should be doing everything they can to properly test their mods and make sure they are correct and have as few potential conflicts as possible such as modifying core assets without good reasons and not just "I don't really know what I'm doing and this is a work around to make it work".
Most modders are probably just players who want to add or change something, don't have a programming background and aren't going to be prepared to spend hours and hours boringly researching how to do it perfectly. If someone who knew what they're doing spent a couple of minutes looking at their work, then a couple more giving some feedback in regards to foreseeable problems, good and bad practices etc it would make a huge difference to the overall quality of the mod, wouldn't it?
I mean sure it's not your responsibility and you can sit back and say 'you should just write perfect mods' but if you really want better compatibility I don't think that approach is going to yield very good results.
So why not move mods to another section if they didn't meet certain quality and compatibility standards like Canute suggested? I don't see the problem with that. It would only encourage people to write better quality mods and information on how too I guess. If there were some standards or guidelines then anyone could flag a mod for not meeting them and point them to info on how to fix it.
Well then we might as well just tell the modders where we find an issue in their threads. Its not our jobs to check modders code.
The issue is how do we find the mods with the problem?
So a question for you modders out there, would you want someone to check over your mods before submission?
My thoughts :
Quote from: skullywag on November 16, 2016, 10:16:07 AM
So a question for you modders out there, would you want someone to check over your mods before submission?
Not at all.
And some of us already are doing this by asking friendly at someone else. It is something I try to do when asked (even if it feel strange as I still consider myself a "beginner") and in a "larger" view, collaborations in all forms, like the chat server and some collaborative projects on Github per exemple, brings greater mods and teach/spreads best practise well.
Recently I learn how collaborative projects are also great for better practise as well. While working with Spoonshortage on "
A Dog Said" and Coercion on "
Animal and Plant Pack"; I feel like I learned from them, and from the process even, more than I gave/explain.
Now about making collaboration "mandatory" ... It's something complicated.
IMHO all we can do as a community is trying to provide knowledge and try to organize it (for easy access). You can't force someone to have good practise. This people has to really want to release something clean by himself (and
will have to spend some times searching how to do things properly).
Quote from: Nommy on November 16, 2016, 10:06:51 AM
Most modders are probably just players who want to add or change something, don't have a programming background and aren't going to be prepared to spend hours and hours boringly researching how to do it perfectly. If someone who knew what they're doing spent a couple of minutes looking at their work, then a couple more giving some feedback in regards to foreseeable problems, good and bad practices etc it would make a huge difference to the overall quality of the mod, wouldn't it?
I mean sure it's not your responsibility and you can sit back and say 'you should just write perfect mods' but if you really want better compatibility I don't think that approach is going to yield very good results.
This actual thread (and the related already pinned post) are exactly that :
Some more versed modders noticed something (because they were taking some of their time to help other debugging mods) and shared the information with the rest of the community.
My point being,
it has to come from the modder. I can't imagine in any way someone asking for help being totally ignored by every other modders we have in here (just look in the Help Subforum or have a look at how things are going on the modding Discord server; already).
Don't be shy, come ask
precise questions (not just a "please-make-my-mod" thread) in the Help subforum, on the mod's Github page, PM the modder directly, etc
But you'll never become better at anything without spending time to do actual research/documentation/preparation or at least practise (talking about modding or anything here) - My point being : becoming good takes time (I know it because I'm not considering myself good yet ^^)
Quote from: NommyMost modders are probably just players who want to add or change something, don't have a programming background and aren't going to be prepared to spend hours and hours boringly researching how to do it perfectly.
Ahh, so the lay person who draws a stick man should find his local artist to flesh it out and make sure the proportions are correct, etc? No. Never gonna happen. You either don't learn a skill and suck and are rightly called out on it or you learn a skill, get better and are given the credit that you are due for your efforts. You don't get to piggyback on other people hard work and there are no excuses to try.
Quote from: NommyIf someone who knew what they're doing spent a couple of minutes looking at their work, then a couple more giving some feedback in regards to foreseeable problems, good and bad practices etc it would make a huge difference to the overall quality of the mod, wouldn't it?
No actually. It means that the market would be flooded with products which are marginally better than absolute crap but still crap and no products of any quality because the people who can produce the goods of quality are wasting all their time and efforts turning absolute crap into marginally better than absolute crap. It's ones own responsibility to "git gud".
Quote from: NommyI mean sure it's not your responsibility...
Finally something we can agree on!
Quote from: Nommy...and you can sit back and say 'you should just write perfect mods' but if you really want better compatibility I don't think that approach is going to yield very good results.
If by "sit back" you mean "put hours upon hours of hard work sometimes in 20+ hours straight per session for weeks to improve my skill and become the best that I can at it" then yes I do just "sit back". Unfortunately for those people who put no effort into anything, they will have no skill in anything. output = input. If you put no effort in then except crap out, but don't expect someone who has put the effort in to fix it for you.
Quote from: NommySo why not move mods to another section if they didn't meet certain quality and compatibility standards like Canute suggested? I don't see the problem with that. It would only encourage people to write better quality mods and information on how too I guess. If there were some standards or guidelines then anyone could flag a mod for not meeting them and point them to info on how to fix it.
Again, it's nobodies job and it would be the absolute height of conceit to judge someone elses work like that.
I have no problems helping people and will give them as accurate information as possible, but I will
not waste my time going over everybodies mod to make sure it plays nice with everyone elses.
That's what it means to be a modder. You decide when you make the mod to take on all the shame and glory that goes with it based on your own skill or the skill of your team. If you feel like you don't know enough...
DON'T DO IT. It's a pretty simple concept. Modding
is software development, the only difference is the scale of the operation. If you aren't a car mechanic or don't know anything about cars; if you aren't a builder or structural engineer; if you aren't medically trained; why would you think you could do any of the tasks related to those fields with any degree of success? Software is
exactly the same. If you have no skill or training then your success will be very limited and nobody will be there to follow behind you to tell you where you went wrong and how to fix or improve it.
TL;DR
Realistic expectations of results at the end include realistic evaluations of our own skills at the beginning. Don't rely on anyone fixing it for you, nobody cares more about your project than you do.
Quote from: skullywag on November 16, 2016, 10:16:07 AM
The issue is how do we find the mods with the problem?
So a question for you modders out there, would you want someone to check over your mods before submission?
I'd like to have any mods I did checked if I did any modding for this game again and I always appreciate any feedback on how I can do something better especially if it impacts performance in any way.
As far as finding problematic mods goes, if there was something like a stickied checklist of things a mod needs to do to be as reliable and compatible as possible then anyone could take a look at someone's mod and say in their thread if it complies or why not.
Like this defining abstracts issue, documenting base stuff which is changed or overridden etc, and IDK, anything else which is going to help insure it will work with less problems.
IDK if that's practical but it would be good to know when considering installing a mod if it's free of known issues and has all potential compatibility conflicts properly documented and perhaps that could be done by saying if a mod complies with some set of standards.
Could something like that work?
kaptain_kavern, it's good you ask and collaborate but not everyone will.
1000101, I was not clear on what I was suggesting. I didn't mean force people to spend time working on other peoples mods. I meant voluntarily looking over other people's work, giving feedback and a way to distinguish mods which meet some quality standards from those that don't, like maybe a separate release forum (perhaps not the best method), or a notation saying they comply perhaps.
I expect people would appreciate feedback like how they haven't defined some abstract class they're using and the consequences of not doing so and I'd consider letting someone know that to be helpful rather than conceitful. Wouldn't you?
Quote from: Canute on November 15, 2016, 11:02:27 AM
Maybe you should start a MOD-inspector/police.
Any new mod that get released should tested if it fit into the rules.
Mod-police would be a huge deterrent to newbie modders joining the community. The subtext of the existence of mod-police is,
prove you're good enough to be one of us, and if you fail our test, suffer public humiliation! And I say this as a newbie modder joining the community; I don't think I'd bother if I knew I had to pass some kind of test. I much prefer the idea of putting your mods out in the wild, for interested people to use if they want, ignore if they want, and write back with feedback and bug reports if they want. I feel like that method selects for judges who are more invested in making your mod even better, and in making you a better modder - as opposed to designated judgy Judges invested in making sure everybody's stuff is compliant with everybody else's stuff, which is a task destined for frustration all around.
Documentation, checklists, reference materials - these are great, and I've seen a bunch of people put some out there, and they're stickied, and that's something I want to help contribute to when I've learned more, too. But keep in mind that
Rimworld itself is still in Alpha - the code is changing with every release. That makes standardization, documentation, and troubleshooting really freaking hard.
Quote from: 1000101 on November 16, 2016, 05:04:44 PM
TL;DR
Quote from: skullywag on November 16, 2016, 10:16:07 AM
So a question for you modders out there, would you want someone to check over your mods before submission?
Yes. This assumes anyone is willing/able. 1000101 isn't. He's
working (as if being paid) on CCL, so obviously doesn't have time & energy to devote to helping amateurs get started. Some people do, though, as hard as that may be to imagine for you salty veterans of modding.
Quote from: Nommy on November 16, 2016, 06:55:28 PM
As far as finding problematic mods goes, if there was something like a stickied checklist of things a mod needs to do to be as reliable and compatible as possible then anyone could take a look at someone's mod and say in their thread if it complies or why not.
A stickied list of common issues that modders are told to check before their 1st release keeps the modders themselves responsible and I think it would help. As for error reporting, users of mods already do a pretty good job of this. And there are a lot of people on these forums who
love telling others when they have made a mistake.
Quote from: Tammabanana on November 16, 2016, 07:36:29 PM
Mod-police would be a huge deterrent to newbie modders joining the community.
Probably, but there's no risk of this becoming a reality. Too big a change, considering how many people would be against it.
Also, 1000101: jk I read your whole post.
Ok this is bordering on personal attack, keep it civil.
I do NOTHING but help any modder i find with an issue im able to help with, the discord is full of modders needing help and i help them as much as possible when im online and other "veterans" do the same. This allows the clever modders (like 1000101) to keep on trucking with the important mods.
The question was actually me putting myself forward, I wouldnt ask the question and then suggest someone else do it, I dont have the right to do that.
Anyways getting passed all the nonsense. It seems a checklist is a good starting point, ill put something together with the minds of the modders discord.
@Nommy, @mabor0shi: I don't mean to sound salty but at the same time, sometimes it's hard to convey a point without sounding like one extreme or another.
As skullywag and myself have said, we'll help and answer questions and we do. I am active in the Help subforum and in the modders Discord (formerly Slack) answering questions as I can (just don't ask me when I'm tired or you'll get answers like '3600' (inside joke)). But we just can't go over every mod that is released looking for possible errors. For one time isn't on our side, for another; we'd like to have a life too. :P
Anyway, modders are always free to ask questions and to check the forums for stickied posts or search the forums for posts relating to their issue. They'll have a better idea of the information they'll need than anyone else will. :)
Back onto the meat of the issue, I like the idea of a simple checklist for things that could be problems modders should watch out for. The problem, as stated by Tammabanana, is that the game is in alpha so these things can change without notice.
Quote from: skullywag on November 17, 2016, 04:17:14 AM
Ok this is bordering on personal attack, keep it civil.
I was not being sarcastic. I seriously meant that 1000101 is busy working on what is arguably the biggest project in RW modding. He is unable to spend time helping ppl try to get started, because, like many other long-time RW modders, he is busy contributing to the community in another way. And, by 'you salty veterans' I didn't mean 'you' specifically, skully. I've read tons of your posts and u seem 'sweet' rather than 'salty' :-* It was maybe a more offensive choice of word than I anticipated. I should have said 'grizzled' or 'battle-hardened'.
Quote from: 1000101 on November 17, 2016, 07:06:14 AM
As skullywag and myself have said, we'll help and answer questions and we do. I am active in the Help subforum and in the modders Discord (formerly Slack) answering questions as I can.
You've actually helped
me on the RW Discord! I don't think you meant to sound so condescending with that 1st reply to nommy. My guess is emotions flavored it...salty. I love that word now.
Quote from: 1000101 on November 17, 2016, 07:06:14 AMBack onto the meat of the issue, I like the idea of a simple checklist for things that could be problems modders should watch out for. The problem, as stated by Tammabanana, is that the game is in alpha so these things can change without notice.
I bet if anything on the checklist changes, it will be rectified before the list can cause more harm than good. Or at least a warning could be applied when a new alpha comes out: "Some of this info may be out of date due to recent changes" or whatever. Plus, I hear nobody reads stickied posts anyway :P
Quote from: skullywag on November 17, 2016, 04:17:14 AMIt seems a checklist is a good starting point, ill put something together with the minds of the modders discord.
Thanks skullywag. And 1000101 and all the other people who spend their free time helping create content for us to play with.
I was wondering if there would be much benefit in creating a tool to do a sort of sanity check on a mod which would report things like undefined abstract classes and anything else that can be checked, and also to generate a summary of all the things in the base game the mod alters or interferes with which modders could paste in the forum and include in the mod somewhere to help keep track of what mods will work together and remove some of the human error associated.
Perhaps it could also report on conflicts between mods you have installed which the game does not report itself if there was anything like that that could be found programmatically and I suppose there is the potential for that code to be ported to the game so it could better do that itself.
How practical and helpful do you guys reckon some kind of sanity & compatibility check tool like that would be?
Is it a bad idea? What do you reckon?
I'd certainly appreciate something like that for checking mods which I'm playing with and also to check any mods I made as well.
Edit: Kinda off topic huh? Sorry skullywag :)
I was wondering if there would be much benefit in creating a tool to do a sort of sanity check on a mod which would report things like undefined abstract classes and anything else that can be checked, and also to generate a summary of all the things in the base game the mod alters or interferes with which modders could paste in the forum and include in the mod somewhere to help keep track of what mods will work together and remove some of the human error associated.
Perhaps it could also report on conflicts between mods you have installed which the game does not report itself if there was anything like that that could be found programmatically and I suppose there is the potential for that code to be ported to the game so it could better do that itself.
How practical and helpful do you guys reckon some kind of sanity & compatibility check tool like that would be?
Is it a bad idea? What do you reckon?
I'd certainly appreciate something like that for checking mods which I'm playing with and also to check any mods I made as well.
Edit: Kinda off topic huh? Sorry skullywag :)
[/quote]
If only people would check the mods/tools section - https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=25305.0 This should help with mod conflicts.
Thanks! Yeah, I only keep an eye on the Releases forum to see what's new but next time I play I'll definitely try that. I see on the ToDo they've got check for this inheritance issue. So maybe one of the things on the checklist could be running that, though IDK how useful it would be for a mod sanity check before it's updated.
Let me just uh.. bump this back to the top. :)
Gonna pump the to the top, with the new alpha kind of out it seems like a good idea.
Quote from: skullywag on December 14, 2016, 02:52:46 PM
Gonna pump the to the top, with the new alpha kind of out it seems like a good idea.
**bump**
Why not sticky it? Then delete this post of mine and the last couple bumps. Seems like a good post to stay near the top.
Quote from: BlackSmokeDMax on December 15, 2016, 07:44:39 AM
Why not sticky it? Then delete this post of mine and the last couple bumps. Seems like a good post to stay near the top.
That has already been discussed here on this very topic. It seems people don't always notice stickies and as such it would be futile to do it as people would not read it...
Most people see this in their "new unread posts" list as people talk on it, which is good and is exactly why i did it to spread the word, now when you lot stumble into a post where a def isnt behaving right, you can say "you using abstracts correctly?"...
I have to agree with Skullywag and 1000101 on this...
it is the modder's own responsibility to make sure their own work to make sure it 'plays nice' with the game and other mods.
That being said, the idea of a 'mod-police' system places a new modder in a 'lesser' position than other modders by having to have their 'approval' and would put a lot of new modders off and possibly prevent new mods from ever seeing the light of day.
That being put aside, its really frustrating as an user who suddenly gets a 100,000,000 spam error that only says 'thing_def" error that slows your system/game down leaving you to have to disable one mod after another trying to find the conflicting one.
So that pushes me in both directions. As an user, sure it would be great for me if I knew that a mod had no issues. But as a content creator, i find it hard to find the time sometimes to do editing and make videos, but i know that its no one elses responsibility to do it.
I know that modders usually have a limited amount of time to work on mods and even after updates it can take time to update a mod. Many modders don't have the time to update between incremental game updates. To put the fate of new modders work in their hands could be disastrous.
And again, having to create a mod-checking tool that has to be updated after every incremental update takes time and effort, and it would have to be the project of at least one, if not several modders who have their own mods they need to find the time to work on.
It would also create a 'responsibility' for someone after each game update to HAVE to update the mod-tool since every modder big and small would be relying on it to be ready the instant a game update is released.
A question. What if I'm redefining a def from another mod and that mod also defines abstract base_def for it? Do I have to redefine the abstract as well?
Yes, if you have an abstract referenced in your mod, copy the abstract in as well. I think I read Ison say that this wasnt necessary anymore but ive yet to experience a bug free game without doing this.