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RimWorld => Releases => Mods => Outdated => Topic started by: Kapun on December 04, 2016, 06:49:28 AM

Title: [A15] Non-lethal weapons mod (1.4) (formerly Blowgun) 10/12/2016
Post by: Kapun on December 04, 2016, 06:49:28 AM
                                  (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/28/article-2210281-1541F9FE000005DC-592_1024x615_large.jpg)
Description:
This mod adds 2 new weapons to the game. They allow to reliably capture enemies. It is a heavly reworked blowgun from truemods https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=26249.0 (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=26249.0) and its upgraded version-tranquilizer (tranq) pistol.

Features:

Download link (no version for steam yet :( )
dropbox (with sourse code): https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4rbhujcz9ukm5c6/AAClvseeF0DVnj6nlvRn0Jgva?dl=0

Incompatibilities: Combat realism.
Adding to existing colonies: Should work fine.
Removing from existing colonies: May not work.
People who made it possible:
TrueDestroyer - the original idea
UnlimitedHugs - contributing code and helping me to make it work

Licence: Do whatever you want with it.

Code: [Select]
Update log
v 1.4:
Added tranq gun and a corresponding research
Buffed blowgun
Replaced soporific with paralizant - shouldn't change weapons' effectiveness

Feel free to post your opinions, ideas and feedback!
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3)
Post by: Thyme on December 04, 2016, 07:53:58 AM
Seems to be solid, will try it out.

Could you add known incompatibilities & if it's safe to use for running colonies?
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3)
Post by: Kapun on December 04, 2016, 08:00:50 AM
I doubt it is incompatable with anything as the mod just adds new stuff (soporific effect and the blowgun).
For running colonies: i am quite sure that all of the features will work, expect for that the research is already researched for the tribal scenario start but if you load it into an exiting tribe you will have to do the research (you won't get it for free as in a new tribe).
But you won't probably be able to remove it from an existing save so make a backup save.
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Canute on December 04, 2016, 08:24:05 AM
What do you think to add a spacer tech variant of the blowgun ?
Narcojet pistol.
Can penetrate armor better then blowgun, but same effect.
50-100% more range then the blowgun.
Improved acc. and warmup.
Need Hightech research
Plasteel and medicin to build.
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Kapun on December 04, 2016, 08:44:12 AM
I like the idea. There are 2 problems though.
1) To do this i need a texture of the narcojet pistol (i am no good at drawing). There is a guy who could probably help me with that.
2) Increased amor piercing withour changing the damage will probably require some C# codding.

Do you think this new pistol should incap a human with 1 hit or with 2?
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Canute on December 04, 2016, 09:37:39 AM
Depend how accurate the pistol are.
With an accuracy of 50%+ for normal weapons on medium range i would say 2 hits.
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: faltonico on December 04, 2016, 03:47:38 PM
Hello there!
I'm guessing this is also affected by the death-on-downed roulette of the game right? or is it a 100% chance of downing?
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Wishmaster on December 04, 2016, 04:04:25 PM
What do you think to add a spacer tech variant of the blowgun ?
Narcojet pistol.
Can penetrate armor better then blowgun, but same effect.
50-100% more range then the blowgun.
Improved acc. and warmup.
Need Hightech research
Plasteel and medicin to build.

That's exactly what I thought too when I read the topic !

Anyway trying the mod right now.
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Thyme on December 05, 2016, 02:52:22 AM
Fabulous, more victims volunteers for my medical experiments!

I like the idea of high tech blow guns. Pirates  like to kidnap colonists too.
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Thundercraft on December 05, 2016, 08:26:52 AM
Very interesting...
After trying it out, these are my findings:

All in all, this seems promising. I just wish that the lethality rate was lower and that it had much better accuracy. Because the range is so short and the delay so long, even if every shot hit the target dead on, it still would not be OP.

Do you think this new pistol should incap a human with 1 hit or with 2?

I agree with Canute that if it has decent accuracy, then it should incap a human in 2 hits. But only if.

Edit:

I decided to test how lethal the blowgun is after I installed the No more random death (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=27580.0) mod. By way of elimination, I figured this would tell me how much of that 15-20% death was a leftover from RimWorld's random death mechanic or whether my unlucky targets died of an overdose and the game did not report it as such.

I put No more random death (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=27580.0) last in my load order, after the Blowgun mod. Then I loaded up by old save.

After instructing my colonist to shoot at a target... it let loose a rapid mini-gun hail of darts! :o The stream was continuous and I had to unequip the Blowgun for it to stop!  ;D I tried again and it did the same thing. Apparently, I forgot to exit RimWorld and restart so the mods would refresh, causing this glitch. Both targets died, of course. But, after examining the corpses, I saw that they both suffered "(extreme overdose)."

After restarting RimWorld, the Blowgun and the new mod seemed to behave. I then had a colonist shoot over a dozen targets (despite the atrocious blowgun accuracy), ranging from a small turtle to numerous deer. Each was downed safely. Also, I noticed that when the Soporific effect begins to wear off and they wake up, it reads as "Soporific buildup (moderate)", so that part seems to work as intended.

This leads me to believe that the 15-20% fatality rate must be bleed-over from RimWorld's random death mechanic that the Blowgun mod failed to completely compensate for. (Either that, or this is intentional.)
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Kapun on December 05, 2016, 02:01:21 PM
Hello there!
I'm guessing this is also affected by the death-on-downed roulette of the game right? or is it a 100% chance of downing?

Hello!
The weapon itself is not lethal unless you hit enemies like 5 times to get extreme overdose (with is only possible if you shoot them while they are already incaped). I don't realy get how does vanila random death works. I thought it only happens if the target is getting downed from extreme pain. I used no more random death mod and i haven't seen any random deathes.
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Kapun on December 05, 2016, 02:17:24 PM
Thundercraft, thank you from your feedback and ideas.
Quote
The blowgun is definitely less lethal than the approximately 67% death vs. incapacitate ratio the game rolls for each attack. I can only assume that the included .dll is responsible for that.
While it is less lethal than vanilla attacks, there is still a 15 to 20% or so (roughly) chance of death. (Perhaps 1 out of 6?) The corpses seem to reveal that they were all subjected to "Soporific buildup (sufficient)". Can I assume that this is not intended behavior, since I never see a pawn with "(overdose)" or "(extreme overdose)"? For the record, I only had one colonist equipped with a blowgun to reduce the risk of an overdose.
It should not be lethal at all (unless you die from extreme overdose). Vanila random death is probably responible for these strange deathes. What the .dll does is making the effect depend on target's meat amount. So if you shoot a rat i should die in 1 hit and you need about 7 hits to down a thumbo.

Quote
Sorry, but I must be honest: The accuracy of this weapon is quite atrocious. Most of the time, they can't even hit an animal at a range of 1, even when both shooter and target are standing still. Of course, as the distance increases, it gets worse. This was with a pawn with Shooting 12 and another with Shooting 14. The weapon is barely usable.
I was afraid to make it OP. An unarmored human may be standing after 6 hits from vanila pistol. The blowgun only needs 2 hits and the target will be greatly slowed after the first one making it a easy prey for hit-run tactic. It is intended that incaping a raider is harder then killing him.

Quote
The range of the blowgun seems quite short. It was far less than the GD tactical pistol (Rimsenal mod), for instance. This rather effectively limits usefulness, especially since the accuracy is so terrible.
Pistol is industrial age weapon and blowguns is neolitic. It is supposed to be better (have longer range). I am planning to add a industrial and spacer ages varians of the blowgun (tranquilliser gun and something for spacer age). They probably have higher accuracy, firing speed and range.

Anyway, if many people find it too weak i will probably buff it a bit. I am also thinking i could make have 0% to pass trough amour higher than some value. I will have to use C# for that.

I someone has time and wants to help he can find/make tranquilliser gun/spacer age tranquilliser textures or say if he can help me with C# (i am not good at it)
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Thyme on December 06, 2016, 12:13:14 PM
I've used it once so far, was trying to down one of my chemical-fascinationbraindead guys before he could get to that flake some drop pods dropped on me against my will.
It was quite hard to hit him, because he crossed the max shooting distance in less time than my shooter needed to aim. He then broke LoS. Got another chance because I was hauling that flake around =)

I wouldn't say it's too weak, it's a mediaval weapon and might be dangerous when a tribe uses it against you. Has anyone encountered tribes with blow guns so far? Balancing problem might as well fix itself when you make us those fancy space-tech tranquiliser gun ;)
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Wishmaster on December 06, 2016, 12:37:56 PM
Quote
I was afraid to make it OP. An unarmored human may be standing after 6 hits from vanila pistol. The blowgun only needs 2 hits and the target will be greatly slowed after the first one making it a easy prey for hit-run tactic. It is intended that incaping a raider is harder then killing him.

So then, how about you balance it by making a blowgun limited by something like 3 or 4 uses only ? It would lose 25% of its hp on every use.
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Kapun on December 06, 2016, 01:07:39 PM
I doubt it is possible without C#. Anyway i am working on trankgun (tranquilizer) textures. What do you think? (I am saking everyone, not just Wishmaker)

[attachment deleted by admin due to age]
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Canute on December 06, 2016, 01:33:45 PM
I've used it once so far, was trying to down one of my chemical-fascinationbraindead guys before he could get to that flake some drop pods dropped on me against my will.
It was quite hard to hit him, because he crossed the max shooting distance in less time than my shooter needed to aim. He then broke LoS. Got another chance because I was hauling that flake around =)

I wouldn't say it's too weak, it's a mediaval weapon and might be dangerous when a tribe uses it against you. Has anyone encountered tribes with blow guns so far? Balancing problem might as well fix itself when you make us those fancy space-tech tranquiliser gun ;)
I didn't use this blowgun yet, but i used the other "original" blowgun with the deadly poison effect he copied.
Yes that weapon isn't for hunting or against raids. Range is to short and the warmup to extrem to hit free moving targets.
BUT i used the poison blowgun very succesful against thrumbos, because you just need 6-7 hits to down/kill a thumbo. Even with the bad acc. you can get the thumbo faster down then with regular vanilia weapons.

And that is what i think be the use of these blowgun are for, special to pick a few targets you don't want to kill like your own pawn on berserk, or valueables raiders you want as prisoner.
Sure if you adjust your defence you maybe can incap. the whole raid, before the first wakeup.
Can you install the blowgun on the turret base from Misc. mod ? :-)

When a tribal raid got a few blowgun they shouldn't be a big thread except the whole raid is equiped with them.

Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Kapun on December 06, 2016, 02:57:03 PM
Quote
Can you install the blowgun on the turret base from Misc. mod ? :-)

I don't really think blowgun turrets are a good idea. Maybe i will add some kind of non-lethal turret but it will have more technologicaly advanced weapons than blowguns. Anyway, if you post a link to this Misc. mod i could consider making what you asked for (i don't like giving promises i won't hold).
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Thundercraft on December 06, 2016, 03:54:44 PM
...Anyway i am working on trankgun (tranquilizer) textures. What do you think? (I am saking everyone, not just Wishmaker)

It looks very good. Though, the pistol grip and the relatively short barrel implies a relatively short range. Personally, I'd like to see a tranq gun with a rifle-like barrel and rifle-like grip for a rifle-like range.

Q: Would the license to use this trank texture be the same as for your blowgun mod?

BTW: As I've been fiddling around with a tranquilizer mod, I created textures for a tranquilizer dart. I thought the first one looked a bit large, so I also created a smaller, shorter version. (I think it looks fine in-game.) And I also made a huge version, with plans to use it for the mod's title graphic. License: Do whatever you want with this. (I just want to see more non-lethal weapon mods.)

[attachment deleted by admin due to age]
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Kapun on December 07, 2016, 10:15:10 AM
Thank you for contributing the textures.
Quote
Q: Would the license to use this trank texture be the same as for your blowgun mod?
Yeah, i am planing to make 1 non-lethal weapons mod that will unclude blowgun, trankgun and some spacer age non-lethal weapon. It will probably have the same license  :)

Quote
Though, the pistol grip and the relatively short barrel implies a relatively short range. Personally, I'd like to see a tranq gun with a rifle-like barrel and rifle-like grip for a rifle-like range.
Yeah, it is a trank. pistol. I don't want to make large long-range non-lethal weapons because it would make incaping raider too easy and it would make the game unbalanced. Getting prisoners should still be challenging!

I hope the trank pistol will be ready by the end if the weakends but i won't promise anything.
Anyway, i have 2 ideas i want your  opinion about (i am asking everyone).
1) Make some kind of rage-starting weapons (they will make the target go berserk).
2) Make the effect reduce moving and manipulation instead of consciousness. So it will be paralyzant rather than soporific. I think it will make it more realistic

I also would like to hear your ideas about what should be the  spacer age non-lethal weapon. I think it should be the size of a pistol, not a rifle. Please say how you imagine it and how it should look like.

Updated the texture slightly

[attachment deleted by admin due to age]
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Thundercraft on December 07, 2016, 12:48:56 PM
Thank you for contributing the textures.

Happy to contribute something.

Yeah, it is a trank. pistol.

Depending on how it's done, a trank pistol would be okay.

I also would like to hear your ideas about what should be the  spacer age non-lethal weapon. I think it should be the size of a pistol, not a rifle. Please say how you imagine it and how it should look like.

How about a Hypospray (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypospray)? It could be a non-lethal melee weapon. And because it has a range of 0, you could afford to give it a high accuracy. I'd like to see more non-lethal melee weapons. For one thing, I think they would perfectly complement non-lethal weapons that induce moods like Berserk or inflict a loss of Manipulation. After a raider has been forced to go into melee, we need a way to capture them.

I don't want to make large long-range non-lethal weapons because it would make incaping raider too easy and it would make the game unbalanced.

If all non-lethal weapons have a short range, can't-shoot-the-broad-side-of-a-barn-awful accuracy, and an insanely high reload time, and if the raiders can easily out-range and out-shoot them, then you're putting your pawns at terrible risk by trying to capture a few. If you end up with crippled or dead colonists in your attempts at capture, then you end up with a net loss instead of a gain. Obviously, if that's the case, then such weapons are not worth using.

Personally, I think it's perfectly fair to let players have a non-lethal weapon with a decent or even good range as long as it is balanced by having a really long warmup and reload time and/or terrible accuracy. Alternatively, you can have a non-lethal weapon with medium or short range as long as the accuracy and/or reload time is decent or incredibly high. (Which is why I complained about the Blowgun, since it's so terrible in all three areas.) It's all comes down to balance.

Getting prisoners should still be challenging!

But I think the whole point of non-lethal weapons is to make obtaining prisoners easi-er. Not easy, per se, but much easier than the nearly impossible challenge it seems to be in a vanilla game. Otherwise, what is the point?

I don't think it's too game unbalancing since there's still the issue of trying to recruit prisoners. If that's the intent, the game takes care of that problem by making it increasingly difficult to recruit prisoners the more your population grows. By the time your population reaches your Storytellers "Critical" pop limit (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=726096646), recruiting should be impossible and the Storyteller is constantly throwing nasty events at you to force a reduction in your population.

Mostly, want to capture more prisoners for the purpose of stuff like organ harvesting and capture'n release.
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Canute on December 07, 2016, 01:02:10 PM
Quote
Anyway, i have 2 ideas i want your  opinion about (i am asking everyone).
1) Make some kind of rage-starting weapons (they will make the target go berserk).
2) Make the effect reduce moving and manipulation instead of consciousness. So it will be paralyzant rather than soporific. I think it will make it more realistic
The rage pistol would be interesting as rage rifle, when you could early some raiders into berserkers. Once they are close it is too late IMO.
What do you think about a fear/flee effect ? :-)

And i though about a sleep gun, but new raiders arrive with full bar, so this wouldn't have much effect. But it would be useful against your own pawns with arn't controlable. But the blowgun would have the same effect.



Not sure what do you await from these reduce moving/manipulation effects. He will still be active and try to move/fight even when he barly can move and has no fingers to pull the trigger.

Btw. there is allready a good mellee non lethal weapon mod, https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=27551.msg279564#msg279564
1 hit wonder, but the target will be up pretty soon.
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Kapun on December 07, 2016, 01:36:37 PM
Quote
How about a Hypospray? It could be a non-lethal melee weapon. And because it has a range of 0, you could afford to give it a high accuracy. I'd like to see more non-lethal melee weapons. For one thing, I think they would perfectly complement non-lethal weapons that induce moods like Berserk or inflict a loss of Manipulation. After a raider has been forced to go into melee, we need a way to capture them.

I might add this hypospray gun, thank you for the idea. But i was actualy asking about a ranger non-lethal spacer age weapon.
When i said about reducing manipulation/moving i ment reducing them down to 0% (with a sufficient dose) so the target will be downed.

Quote
If all non-lethal weapons have a short range, can't-shoot-the-broad-side-of-a-barn-awful accuracy, and an insanely high reload time, and if the raiders can easily out-range and out-shoot them, then you're putting your pawns at terrible risk by trying to capture a few. If you end up with crippled or dead colonists in your attempts at capture, then you end up with a net loss instead of a gain. Obviously, if that's the case, then such weapons are not worth using.

Well, i will buff the blowgun a bit (probably accurasy) and the more technologicaly advanced non-lethal weapons will be better so it won't be that bad.

Quote
But I think the whole point of non-lethal weapons is to make obtaining prisoners easi-er. Not easy, per se, but much easier than the nearly impossible challenge it seems to be in a vanilla game. Otherwise, what is the point?
It easier because i won't kill them by accedent. It gives you are better way of obtaing recruts then just shoting a bunch of raider and them nursing the lucky surviver back to healh. Maybe i will thinker with the code to make datrs have 0% to penetrate armor that is thicker than some value. So it will make the darts less usefull agains armored target and that will allow me to buff them without making them OP.

Anyway the mod is quite new and i see that the balance is probably not perfect. When i have time (at the weakends hopefully) i will analyse all the feedback to decide how much to tweak the blowgun.
So everyone who tested the mod, tell me if you like the things the way they are now or not. Your opinion does matter!  :D
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Thundercraft on December 08, 2016, 01:09:13 PM
Anyway, i have 2 ideas i want your opinion about (i am asking everyone).
1) Make some kind of rage-starting weapons (they will make the target go berserk)...

It is interesting that you bring this up because I've been working on a Berserk-inducing gun for a while. Your post did prod me to finish and I finally pushed out a release (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=27839.0) yesterday. But it's not like I stole the idea since I've been working on it since at least November 27'th. You're welcome to download and study the code, or whatever, though.

It's worth noting that when a projectile is designed to induce a Mental State like Berserk or WanderPsychotic, it bypasses the random death mechanic. Without even using a .dll, such weapons have a very low mortality rate. However, there are some caveats and limitations. I'll try to explain that and more in my thread (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=27839.0).

2) Make the effect reduce moving and manipulation instead of consciousness. So it will be paralyzant rather than soporific. I think it will make it more realistic

That is an interesting idea. Let us know how it works.

According to the wiki page on Health (http://rimworldwiki.com/wiki/Health):

Code: [Select]
Pain: Fatal if all capacity is lost?: NO
Consciousness: Fatal if all capacity is lost?: YES
Moving: Fatal if all capacity is lost?: NO
Manipulation: Fatal if all capacity is lost?: NO

I wonder if loosing 100% of Moving would make the victim susceptible to capture?
Title: Re: [A15] Blowgun-non-lethal weapon mod (1.3) 04/12/2016
Post by: Kapun on December 08, 2016, 01:19:58 PM
Quote
I wonder if loosing 100% of Moving would make the victim susceptible to capture?
Yeah, they will be downed the same way as if they got their spine shattared or their leg shot off.

I saw your post, haven't tried the mod yet though. In my mod I will probably do the incaping guns before moving onto rage-starting ones but when i do it your code will be quite useful, thank you for letting my study it :D
Title: Re: [A15] Non-lethal weapons mod (1.4) (formerly Blowgun) 10/12/2016
Post by: Kapun on December 10, 2016, 01:04:01 PM
Updated to v 1.4
Added tranq gun and the corresponding research
Buffed blowgun
Replaced soporific with paralizant - shouldn't change weapons' effectiveness

Looking for your feedback! :D You can just vote at the top of the first page.
Title: Re: [A15] Non-lethal weapons mod (1.4) (formerly Blowgun) 10/12/2016
Post by: Scott2277 on January 01, 2017, 08:47:22 AM
I just used this mod in [A16] the other day, it works great other than the fact that the dosage of paralyzant never lowers. So the targets hit with it are downed for life. (I'm no programmer, so I don't know how easy this is to fix, but I would love to see this mod updated to [A16].)
Title: Re: [A15] Non-lethal weapons mod (1.4) (formerly Blowgun) 10/12/2016
Post by: Thyme on January 16, 2017, 02:06:16 PM
Any chance this will be updated to A16?
Title: Re: [A15] Non-lethal weapons mod (1.4) (formerly Blowgun) 10/12/2016
Post by: Kapun on January 22, 2017, 11:13:08 AM
Unfortunatly, i have very little free time at the moment. If someone wants to help, they are free to update the mod to A16 and send it to me. I will post the updated version here, giving the person credits, of course.