What about an option to put a prisoner into a prostitute, so that your ugly people can get some "relief".
I mean you can butcher your prisoners for their organs, so morals should not be a problem here.
Its even canon because i once had a "sex slave" colonist. So there are Sex Slaves in the Rimverse.
Could have a debuff for non psychopaths like butchering humans.
what do you think?
doesn't feel like it fits in well
i mean, if you have ugly colonists just make them work the night shift
i don't mind wearing a hat made out of the skin out of my enemies, but have some decency man
Some topics hit a little too close to home for some people.
This, is probably one of those topics.
We're playing a Science Fiction GAME afterall. I see no place for rape in Rimworld.
You mean its ok to do whatever you like to your prisoners, including amputating their limps just for fun.
But sticking something up their *** is not to GAME-like?
Quote from: ArguedPiano on December 15, 2016, 06:32:22 AM
Some topics hit a little too close to home for some people.
This, is probably one of those topics.
We're playing a Science Fiction GAME afterall. I see no place for rape in Rimworld.
if there is cannibalism, murder, slavery, organ harvesting, why say no to rape?
But in real life, if you aren't a psychopath, chances are you won't be able to have enjoyable sex with a person who doesn't want it. As long as you remember that majority people can't commit rape, as well as can't kill another person, or can't eat another person without extremely strong motivator, I think it's a pretty solid ground to stand on. Only psychopaths and morally despicable individuals will engage, and only as a spontaneous mechanic over which you have no control, then it would make sense. But to create a sex slave you would need the whole colony of psychopaths, otherwise it might as well be just a slave since, well, people usually do not enjoy raping or being raped so the slave would be left alone.
TL;DR: I only see "forcelovin' slaves" activity as a spontaneous by-product of a psychopath trait.
Just with majority of these suggestions, take a moment to look at the feature you're currently suggesting, and go: "Would this enhance gameplay enough to be worth adding?"
I can't think of any circumstance where what is essentially rape would actively enhance the game past the shock factor of 'wow they actually put that in the game?'
Whats the benefit?
well, the "had sex" Buff is quite strong, and quite implossible to have for "ugly" people.
Offtopic, there is forced prostitution IRL too and NOT only psychopaths use those services.
EDIT:
I know i am riding an edge here, but its something to think about, and it could be imoplementet with low "cost"
Best solution to this problem is: make a mod.
No solution at all. because this is a suggetion thread and not a mod thread. And i wanted to make a suggestion to an aspect of the game thats already in the rimverse background but not in the game.
It is of course not good to promote rape culture, but its not good promoting murder either so i think its a viable suggestion to talk about. Maybe an abstract aspect of it could be implemented. fo example aquirable "sex slave" trait. for a person that shares a bed with whomever the player decides.
It is a solution since you will recieve the content you need without highlighting tynan as a person who made game which features rape, during the times when topic of rape is tolerated severely worse than topics of murder, cannibalism, or slavery.
i have to disagree, not because of the latter argument which i agree but if you extend your first argument EVERY Suggestion could be put down to "Just make a Mod that does this" and then there would only be suggestions left like "Make Rimworld 3d"-things that cannot be done with mods.
I agree with you there.
There was outrage over the relationship system... I can only imagine the RPS article if this concept was included. Not that I think it wouldn't be feasible or anything, but it's one of those things that would undoubtedly generate bad publicity for not a whole lot of benefit.
Would cause more trouble than it's worth.
Quote from: Plymouth on December 15, 2016, 06:43:51 AM
if there is cannibalism, murder, slavery, organ harvesting, why say no to rape?
Quote from: newboerg on December 15, 2016, 06:36:38 AM
You mean its ok to do whatever you like to your prisoners, including amputating their limps just for fun.
But sticking something up their *** is not to GAME-like?
By those logic, there'd be no problem adding in child pornography in incredibly violent games yet you won't even find someone dare to even think of doing it. Just because X is okay in something doesn't mean Y is too. There's a line you gotta draw somewhere. It differs for person to person. Some draw the line with gays and lesbians while others with children. But personally, I don't think rape/forced sex fits Rimworld. Lore and background-wise sure, it's fine but as a game mechanic it'd be uncomfortable for quite a lot of people. Therefore not worth it.
Regarding murder, torture, cannibalism, slavery, organ farms and the like. It's okay here because it creates some really absurd situations that just makes you laugh instead of coming off as disturbing.
Yes, this is the suggestions forum and you're free to suggest things. We're here to find flaws in suggestions and ways to improve it. Sadly, I doubt forced sex is something likely added to the base game in the future.
Edit:
Only things I can see working well from the suggestion is a new trait: Traumatized (Some events will cause pawns to break instantly and cry on the floor or hide in their room for a few hours.)
And different flavor text for wanderers and chased refugees.
"A woman clad in worn clothing hails your colony from afar. She seems withdrawn and in a very rough condition. You notice chain marks on her hands and feet, those usually found in slaves. She offers to join your colony."
This line will sooner or later be gone(not talking about rimworld obviously, just globally), much like the lines of death, murder, slavery, organ harvesting and whatnot have gone and allowed humour to flow free. "Sex slavery" and "rape" i1s something inevitable that happens all the time, and while twisted, at some point no doubt it will gain it's own branch of dark humour like the other dark topics did. How soon we will accept the topic is the matter of time on how soon we will be able to make comedy out of it. At the moment it's pretty challenging ,that's why nobody is raising it, but if someone finds a way, it surely will become more accepted.
Quote from: Plymouth on December 15, 2016, 06:43:51 AM
if there is cannibalism, murder, slavery, organ harvesting, why say no to rape?
Rape is much more common than any of those things, especially in the population of people who have the luxury of playing video games. Statistically, there are going to be a shit-ton of players for whom that mechanic would trigger very visceral memories of personal trauma. Implementing rape for "dark humor" giggles would be the extreme opposite of funny for a lot of people.
Quote from: Plymouth on December 15, 2016, 07:13:10 AM
It is a solution since you will recieve the content you need without highlighting tynan as a person who made game which features rape, during the times when topic of rape is tolerated severely worse than topics of murder, cannibalism, or slavery.
^this.
rape is a big taboo right now than murder, cannibalism, torture, etc.. coz feminazis and whiteknights will eat you alive if you even joke about it.
which is why instead of "forced" prostitution, the most you can get is a simple "prostitution" (not forced) unless you want the "good" people of earth to skin you alive and eat your entrails.
here's an event idea.
prostitutes from X faction has arrived to ply their trade in your colony (prostitutes can either be straight male, straight female, or gay. equal opportunity for everyone) :
-each prostitute is a trader.
-approach a prostitute you like
-pay silver
-have sexy times in pawn's double bed
-if no double bed. pawns engage in sexy times right on the spot.
-you can repeat as many times you want to get more mood buff.
-if you have enough silver, you can ask a prostitute group to perform an orgy.
-an orgy is like a party event.
-everyone would go to party spot and anyone who wants can have sexy times with the prostitutes until the event is over. (3 hours)
-you can ask friendly factions to send prostitutes via the comms console. (just like asking for traders)
-you can even visit friendly factions and they have prostitutes there.
-prostitution can even be a skill (like hauling and cleaning) so anyone assigned to it will automatically have sex with anyone. (free love for everyone like a hippy commune thing)
-the higher the prostitution skill, the bigger the mood buff they give.
-introduce STDs as a new disease, coz why the heck not?
-fun times.
----
-raiders on the other hand have sex slaves (kidnapped from other factions, even yours).
-if you're on the same map, you can occasionally see them raping and torturing their prisoners.
-players can attack raider camps and free their slaves to get relationship points from other factions or free your captured pawns.
Quote from: keylocke on December 15, 2016, 06:16:09 PM
-prostitution can even be a skill (like hauling and cleaning) so anyone assigned to it will automatically have sex with anyone. (free love for everyone like a hippy commune thing)
-the higher the prostitution skill, the bigger the mood buff they give.
"Hey there space refugee, you good at anything?"
"not really"
"Cleaning?"
"nah"
"Hauling?"
"nah"
"ANYTHING?"
"im a pretty good fuck"
"..."
"Well, Jim is a bit neurotic. You'll do. "
It will probably never be in the game other than mentioned via backstory. I am very much against moral guardians and social justice types trying to shove their idiotic regressive agenda on videogames, but Tynan has had enough bullshit from them already over something they basically made up. Fact is though, when you start adding degenerate sexual content to a videogame under the guise of "Well it's realistic that it happens" or for whatever other excuse, it's not just a videogame anymore, it's a videogame that caters to degenerates.
Whether it's rape, bestiality/furries, pedophilia, or whatever flavour of degeneracy you can imagine, by adding that to the game you are inviting the worst of the internet to be your community. When the people who just want to play a game are having disgusting fetishes shoved in their face by the game/community, you'll have no one to blame but yourself when the degenerates are the only ones left playing your game.
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on December 15, 2016, 07:35:36 PM
Quote from: keylocke on December 15, 2016, 06:16:09 PM
-prostitution can even be a skill (like hauling and cleaning) so anyone assigned to it will automatically have sex with anyone. (free love for everyone like a hippy commune thing)
-the higher the prostitution skill, the bigger the mood buff they give.
"Hey there space refugee, you good at anything?"
"not really"
"Cleaning?"
"nah"
"Hauling?"
"nah"
"ANYTHING?"
"im a pretty good fuck"
"..."
"Well, Jim is a bit neurotic. You'll do. "
yes. please come to the room with the cobraskin leather couch, we're about to start the auditions..
You can have all of that in a game, the good, the bad and the ugly, but is YOU in the end who decides to do it or not.
I don't make my pawns butcher and eat people, i find that to be abhorrent, I don't even let them feed cattle with it, but I do some really nasty shit to the ones who tried to kill my people out of anger (even more if they do manage to kill one of my people), but it would probably not include rape.
You can put it this way though, ask it: "do you want to become kibble, a meat bag, or service the people you wanted to murder, pillage and desecrate the sarcophagi of their loved ones for a couple days, and then you can leave?".
I always remember the gruesomeness of "Vinland Saga" in this situations where in war, they don't even had the choice.
I wouldn't mind what keylocke suggested though, a new joy trader caravan =D
It would have to be unlocked though, for not to upset the prude, it can use a chain of events for that (like rescuing the madam form pirates and then escorting her to her colony to make it available in the coms console, for instance).
Add job givers, a couple hediffs (use new items for those like condoms xD), and a new kind of bed like the one of hospitality and you are done! (I'm not a moder though ;p).
A huge mood boost for lonely/ostracized/unstable pawns, they could also be used to contract "wild parties" >=D there is room to implement "cheating" too xD
This Topic seems to wander off into the depths of Moral Do-and-Donts.
I in no way meant to have a button saying "Rape Him NOW!"
I thought more about a subtle aproach:
A Trait called "sex slave" which might or might not be aquireable(maybe like a savant Feature).
A Pawn with that traint can not turn down any aproach from anyone towards him. THIS would lead to really funny Event chains (Imagine Girls falling in love with their Toyboy and fighting over him). The Sex Slave would not Approach anyone on his own though, which would lead to funny Scenarios where there is a colony formed from a downed "pleasure-ship" with all pawns unable to form bonds with each other because they are all bread to serve not to desire.
What do you think of an Approch like this? It would not reek of rape that much.
Quote from: newboerg on December 16, 2016, 02:14:20 AM
This Topic seems to wander off into the depths of Moral Do-and-Donts.
I in no way meant to have a button saying "Rape Him NOW!"
I thought more about a subtle aproach:
A Trait called "sex slave" which might or might not be aquireable(maybe like a savant Feature).
A Pawn with that traint can not turn down any aproach from anyone towards him. THIS would lead to really funny Event chains (Imagine Girls falling in love with their Toyboy and fighting over him). The Sex Slave would not Approach anyone on his own though, which would lead to funny Scenarios where there is a colony formed from a downed "pleasure-ship" with all pawns unable to form bonds with each other because they are all bread to serve not to desire.
What do you think of an Approch like this? It would not reek of rape that much.
Uh, no. Because that sounds stupidly juvenile, like you're trying to make RimWorld into a hentai for your own amusement.
Moral arguments aside (because there's already been plenty of those in this thread), the problem with sex (and things related to it) is that too much of it quickly overwhelms any other themes of the game. It's like pepper: a bit does wonders, but overdo it and it's all people will taste. Cannibalism, human-hat making, organ harvesting, etc have been added because, albeit extreme, they are still related to RimWorld's core theme of
survival. Prostitutes, sex slaves, and rape aren't in the game because they would detract from that theme at best, and completely overwhelm it at worst. It's the same reason why, although the Cthulhu Mythos mods look quite spiffy, I am perfectly happy keeping them out of the main game itself.
the pepper Argument is quite good! I have to applaud. But please consider my last post:Pawn approaching each other does not have the necessity of them having sex at all. i have a married couple in my latest colony who have sex very seldom, albeit working the same shifts and so on.
I'll agree that prostitution and rape wouldn't bring anything to the game and are best left out. But instead what about allowing the 'one night stand'? I see my pawns hitting on each other all the time. Instead of committing to a relationship they can share a bed for one night with a pawn that tries to woo them; which could lead to more, of course.
These pawns are out for survival where the next day they could end up killed by a manhunting squirrel. To heck with monogamy! Let them celebrate surviving a day with whoever catches their eye at the moment.
i agree. there needs to be a new type of temporary open relationship called "booty call".
Thoses are great ideas, and they reminisce me about Fallout2, wich I dearly loved.
But It would be wise to make a mod of it, rather than making it vanilla.
As it was said earlier, RPS and other Buzzfeed/Clickbait/ViewWhore webzines would jump at the occasion...
You know just how fragile is a game/develloper reputation on the internet right? (Peter Molyneux, Phil Fish, Markus Persson, all have their carrier destroyed by the "community" itself)
To be honest, I really don't see the problem with this. I've wanted to make an 'evil town' since alpha 3 when the game decided to veer away from that.
Just because it's in the game doesn't mean everyone has to play with the feature. I mean as has been said before. You can literally capture a *friendly* ally, imprison him, beat him, forcefully cut off his legs and then proceed to harvest him of his vital organs until death. Going further than that, you can then burn him alive, cut him up into slabs of meat and make furniture from his skin... Then there's also drugs.
Is this suggestion *really* going too far? The game doesn't need to be blunt about it. Simply having the title as "*personal slave *" would be fine that you can occasionally see going to the slave masters room and seeing some love hearts.
The only reason people see this as bad is the taboo of it. But we have become so normallised to the type of content I've just mentioned that really on the moral scale this doesn't come close.
I know I for one would enjoy this feature. I want to play the bad raider town in Rimworld, let me be the pirate. Let me raid, cannibalise and enslave the outlander towns. I want to make a tribal village that is to be feared in all manners.
There's torture, there's murder, there's cannibalism, there's drugs, there's harvesting, there is cheating, there is awful sickness's like dementia.
"Personal slave" wowie. Big deal.
I would say calling 'forced prostitution' a 'taboo' is a bit lenient. Less 'taboo' and more 'we don't like talking about it because of how psychologically damaging it is to the victims and how you have to be pretty fucked up to commit such an act in the first place' sort of ordeal.
Anything that happens in that first paragraph is the result of the player taking a broader system and using its features to enact those events. Unlike this suggested feature that exists solely for the one purpose, the limb/health system wasn't exactly planned with those options as main features, so comparing the two is pretty dumb.
If you want to run a raider encampment that pillages, tortures, and rapes, go ahead. 2/3rds of those options are already available to you, just gotta find someone with less-than-stellar morals to finalize it for you.
Quote from: Elixiar on December 16, 2016, 07:34:45 PM
Simply having the title as "*personal slave *" would be fine that you can occasionally see going to the slave masters room and seeing some love hearts.
Actually, I think this could sort of work. Somewhat "subtle" enough to stop it from being jarring. Just add a mood debuff for the slave and other colonists and it could possibly be alright.
maybe.
Quote from: Elixiar on December 16, 2016, 07:34:45 PM
To be honest, I really don't see the problem with this. I've wanted to make an 'evil town' since alpha 3 when the game decided to veer away from that.
Just because it's in the game doesn't mean everyone has to play with the feature. I mean as has been said before. You can literally capture a *friendly* ally, imprison him, beat him, forcefully cut off his legs and then proceed to harvest him of his vital organs until death. Going further than that, you can then burn him alive, cut him up into slabs of meat and make furniture from his skin... Then there's also drugs.
Is this suggestion *really* going too far? The game doesn't need to be blunt about it. Simply having the title as "*personal slave *" would be fine that you can occasionally see going to the slave masters room and seeing some love hearts.
The only reason people see this as bad is the taboo of it. But we have become so normallised to the type of content I've just mentioned that really on the moral scale this doesn't come close.
I know I for one would enjoy this feature. I want to play the bad raider town in Rimworld, let me be the pirate. Let me raid, cannibalise and enslave the outlander towns. I want to make a tribal village that is to be feared in all manners.
There's torture, there's murder, there's cannibalism, there's drugs, there's harvesting, there is cheating, there is awful sickness's like dementia.
"Personal slave" wowie. Big deal.
Basically this. Rape happens (Wish it didnt) and sexual urges happen as well. People talk about survival like sex isnt warranted here, but after a while by yourself or others for years you would want to have sex. And if not add rape why not what he is suggesting?
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on December 16, 2016, 08:00:41 PM
I would say calling 'forced prostitution' a 'taboo' is a bit lenient. Less 'taboo' and more 'we don't like talking about it because of how psychologically damaging it is to the victims and how you have to be pretty fucked up to commit such an act in the first place' sort of ordeal.
Anything that happens in that first paragraph is the result of the player taking a broader system and using its features to enact those events. Unlike this suggested feature that exists solely for the one purpose, the limb/health system wasn't exactly planned with those options as main features, so comparing the two is pretty dumb.
My apologies, I'm not trying to take away how bad it is. I'm merely reinforcing how all these things whether by design intention or not, are possible in the game and many people enjoy those features of the game. By now, if harvesting prisoners wasn't considered a fairly core part of the game there wouldn't be a huge negative impact for harvesting.
This is a storytelling and role playing game, and I just think the premise of what this suggestion is, is much more intense than what would actually be in the game.
What exactly defines defines cannibalism and murder as okay but this a no-go? Where is the line?
If babies were in the game I am putting money on the fact you would be able to chop them up for human meat and have the parent pawn eat them. I mean lol that's just what Rimworld can do.
well from a storytelling perspective.. rape is a powerful and dark storyline.
victims would have ptsd and stuff, but at the same time there's a recovery curve. they see some horrible shit happening, and then you see these victims survive and become stronger as a result.
heck, in my previous post i suggested that raiders could have some prisoners in their camp which they occasionally subject to rape and torture, which the players can then set free.
---
then there's also the possibility of a "dark storyline", like a "factions" thing.
ie : are you a tribal? are you a spacer? are you a pirate?
so if players decide to play as a "pirate" faction. everyone is forever hostile against the player, including other pirates. however, you also have all the options to kidnap, rape, torture, and pillage the other factions. just like other pirates.
also, you won't get negative mood buffs for butchering people, selling people as slaves, harvesting their organs, etc..
choosing a pirate raider faction should let you play dark storylines that might be considered as taboo by other factions. heck, that option should probably have a disclaimer that says : warning. playing this faction unlocks some morally questionable actions. your trigger will intensify.
I understand that Rimworld lets you do awful things but the problem with forced prostitution as it's been suggested is that pawns fucking hate those things. They hate them to hell. When a raider shoots a pawn in the leg then collapses in a hail of bullets, if you capture that raider and fail to stop the bleeding your shot pawn is all "we have a responsibility to keep our prisoners safe." If that guy got up and then raped a prisoner for a mood buff it would be wildly inconsistent.
Some of the other suggestions make sense, I don't think there should be any extensive mechanics because ultimately it doesn't add much. If there were slaves in pirate camps you could liberate that would actually be a neat mechanic, if they had to share beds with raiders and little black hearts sometimes appeared I don't that would be particularly egregious. If psychopathic pawns or pawns on a severe mental break sometimes slept with prisoners to the disgust and outrage of other pawns that would probably also be fine.
A darker storyline where you're a band of pirates running a slave camp and doing terrible things sounds interesting but it also seems far enough beyond the scope of vanilla to warrant being a mod.
Wow, this is a helluva thread... Glad someone else isn't afraid of speaking on taboo things.
I've spoken on this before, and really, tynan HIMSELF has said a rimworld is NOT full of healthy, moral, perfect people, its full of damaged, imperfect, flawed folks. Morally speaking, I see no reason why it doesn't exist, because morals and law are not a thing in the rimworld outside the extent of the individual "factions" law, and in an out of game context, hurt feelings have no place in morality of a consensual arrangement which is informed (ie, you know the game has rape, play it anyway) in ADULT CONTENT, which IIRC, rimworld is classified as, what with drugs, sex, murder, ect... .... I wouldn't call it a kids game.
Infact, if you think about it, its a LITTLE immersion breaking if you deal with the extreme nastyness of raiders. Back WAAAAY back when fear was a stat, you could have gibbit cages, torture prisoners, and leave corpses by someones bed as a MECHANIC to control through terror. granted this is gone now, but it made me think : if we can become THAT kind of pure evil raider, why is the line arbitrarily drawn at sexual stuff?...it was at least ignorable before sex / romance was a thing, but now, more and more, its rather weird.. a person may break over and over from drug withdrawal / having his crush rejected, but rape is never a possibility, even if a psychopath. It seems... a little odd. Reminds me of a quote. "We will beat you, feed you your mother, let someone use you as a test dummy for medical training, stab you for fun, take your organs out for spare parts, glue on peg legs as part of an art project, butcher you and make meals and hats out of you.... ...but dont worry, we wont put anything in your ass, because you know, that's just WRONG."
I personally think it could add to the raid idea, and create serious contempt towards raider factions, to say, have someone captured, then returned in a week, bruised up, mentally fucked up, and violated... you would technically get the colonist back, but there would be so much damage there. YES, it would be triggering, YES, it would hit hard at home for some, but lets face it, rimworld isn't a kids game, and its not even an immature game. So I think, even if the idea is extremely uncomfortable, it would be interesting to add. Besides, wasn't the design of rimworld based on making EXPERIENCES? Having a colonist raped, and then vowing to burn an enemies base to the ground would CERTAINLY be an experience.. as would perhaps jaded colonists torturing / killing raider prisoners of their own volition as a reaction to the outrage, but thats a much deeper suggestion.
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on December 16, 2016, 08:00:41 PM
Anything that happens in that first paragraph is the result of the player taking a broader system and using its features to enact those events. Unlike this suggested feature that exists solely for the one purpose, the limb/health system wasn't exactly planned with those options as main features, so comparing the two is pretty dumb.
Your judging based on INTENT.... And this is a very silly concept, saying its ok if its not intended. Heres a question for you, had tynan "unintentionally" added in rape as a thing, would you then be ok with it?... Would that then meet your approval?
Really, thats a weak, almost fallacious argument, to say that INTENT shapes if something is right or wrong. It seems like your grasping at straws, the real thing is, it seems, you feel uncomfortable with rape ingame, and don't want it because of that. This is fine, I guess, but just be honest if this is the case. Really, there should be a clear, and concise argument why it shouldn't be added, which I don't see...and no, I don't count people being triggered. Because ANYTHING will trigger SOMEBODY. So long as its not causing physical harm OR being forced on others in an indecent manner (such as flashing someone), I don't see the point...I mean, the game isn't graphic anyway, its not like hotline Miami 2s "rape scene", which, while penetration was never achieved, was very violent.
To be frank, YES, if it was added, it would offend a LOT of people, maybe even make people cry...but isn't this what really good books / movies / games do? Hit nerves? Isnt that the idea of rimworld, to go on a rollercoaster of trials, defeats, victories, failures, tests, punishments, rewards, and be overwhelmed by it all? This certainly SEEMS to be part of it, for some. But I suppose cannibalism, murder, and other stuff is easier to emotionally detach from. But this is part of the reason I like it, even as a rare event, it would strike a nerve, a soft spot in people, which many people dont seem to have happen.
Now I will be honest.... I KNOW this will not get added main game very soon, simply because PR. Regardless of if it is ok, or not, or if you THINK its ok or not, it would go against the grain VERY HARD in society, particularly with the SJW stranglehold of political correctness. We already saw the RPS article on gender roles, and the BS that caused, could you imagine what might happen if the a23 changelog had "rape added : Colonists now have a possibility of raping others during a mental break, based on attraction"? It would be an astounding shitstorm, and people would absolutely lose their shit, regardless if its said that rape is rare as a thing, that its as a mental break, and it is preventable / punishable. Hell, even for MODDERS, I could see a modder getting doxed, death threats, hate messages, ect, just over a mod....
... Because certain parts of reality, people aren't brave enough to face, even a fictitious version... This is a real weakness in society, not being able to just examine it, for what it is. And until that as a thing is fixed, I don't see this changing. And honestly, I dont see the issue of rape improving unless people can honestly examine it / understand the causes either.
Quote from: keylocke on December 17, 2016, 02:50:12 AM
well from a storytelling perspective.. rape is a powerful and dark storyline.
Pretty much this... Like it or not, rape would be one of THE most powerful storyline events you could create. If its powerful enough to make people SCARED of the idea of it being added, its powerful enough to get someone seriously emotionally into a game.
@yaso : yeah, good point, but this is a design limitation, I think. Tbh, I wish there was a complex system which multiplied events by many factors, like current stress, faction its done to, personality type, culture of the colony, ect, but THAT would be an update in and of itself. I would still love if feelings was made subjective for many things, like being rejected, seeing bodies, eating bad food, ect...and can be changed over time through circumstance...for instance, are you desperate and eating raw food for a season because you cannot spare the resources to cook? Your colonists would slowly have the idea become ok, or perhaps even become an acquired taste, in rare cases. (like a person handling bodies so much and seeing too much blood becoming psychotic.)
... ...damnit, did I just suggest a psychology framework again?...damnit.
Oh and sorry for text wall. But I needed to get my points out there.
Quote from: mumblemumble on December 17, 2016, 04:18:35 AM
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on December 16, 2016, 08:00:41 PM
Anything that happens in that first paragraph is the result of the player taking a broader system and using its features to enact those events. Unlike this suggested feature that exists solely for the one purpose, the limb/health system wasn't exactly planned with those options as main features, so comparing the two is pretty dumb.
Your judging based on INTENT.... And this is a very silly concept, saying its ok if its not intended. Heres a question for you, had tynan "unintentionally" added in rape as a thing, would you then be ok with it?... Would that then meet your approval?
Did you miss my point entirely? Intent is part of it, yes, but the main factor is that in comparison to what is currently being suggested, the health/limb system is a broad framework. I can chop off a colonist's infected limb to keep him from dying to infection just as much as I can replace a raider's legs with peglegs. Doesn't mean the system is designed in mind with the sole concept of 'this is for chopping up raiders'.
I'm not quite sure how you can "unintentionally" make rape a mechanic in the game, either.
Quote from: mumblemumble on December 17, 2016, 04:18:35 AM
Really, thats a weak, almost fallacious argument, to say that INTENT shapes if something is right or wrong. It seems like your grasping at straws, the real thing is, it seems, you feel uncomfortable with rape ingame, and don't want it because of that. This is fine, I guess, but just be honest if this is the case. Really, there should be a clear, and concise argument why it shouldn't be added, which I don't see...and no, I don't count people being triggered. Because ANYTHING will trigger SOMEBODY. So long as its not causing physical harm OR being forced on others in an indecent manner (such as flashing someone), I don't see the point...I mean, the game isn't graphic anyway, its not like hotline Miami 2s "rape scene", which, while penetration was never achieved, was very violent.
You're right, I am uncomfortable with it being added. I don't like the concept being pushed into the game because I genuinely don't see how it'd do more good than harm if actually added. Maybe come back in another 50-100 years, depending on how much social boundaries change to make the concept a little less abhorred when it comes to talking about it bluntly. There's a reason you don't see many games, let alone AAA titles, tackle the concept: because how you handle it can easily make or break it when selling.
Essentially, either you downplay it to a point where its practically a niche feature with no real gameplay relevancy that just barely hints at whats currently happening, or you go in and actually the system for it and then the media vultures swoop down and push their own bias into their stories. Rock Paper Shotgun's Claudia Lo (https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/11/02/rimworld-code-analysis/) already attempted this with the game's unfinished relationship system, which as easily defended seeing how it wasn't a complete system and wasn't meant to fully represent the concept. Can you imagine the fucking field day they'd have if rape was intentionally added? Nah, no thanks.
If you want it as a feature, get someone to mod it in for you. Whether you see being 'triggered' as a valid reasoning or not to keep it out, bad publicity is usually a good reason.
EDIT: Goldenpotatoes beat me to the post above ^ but here is my original post as I put some time into typing it out:
I think Goldenpotatoes put this perfectly earlier:
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on December 15, 2016, 06:47:22 AM
Just with majority of these suggestions, take a moment to look at the feature you're currently suggesting, and go: "Would this enhance gameplay enough to be worth adding?"
I can't think of any circumstance where what is essentially rape would actively enhance the game past the shock factor of 'wow they actually put that in the game?'
Quote from: mumblemumble on December 17, 2016, 04:18:35 AMIf its powerful enough to make people SCARED of the idea of it being added, its powerful enough to get someone seriously emotionally into a game.
It would also be powerful enough to make someone seriously disgusted at the fact that it is, or would be a feature.
I am willing to bet you would loose much more potential sale than you would gain by adding this feature.
After all, is that not what you want when you build a game? To make it as fun and enjoyable to as many people as possible?
And as fans of the game, do we not want to help grow a large, healthy community to encourage the growth of well asked for features such as personal caravans and the ability to raid other factions?
Sure it may be fun for some people to play out these events. Most may never even use the mechanic. But the public backlash would be IMMENSE, both from inside the community and much larger from out.
I can see no circumstances where rape would be beneficial to Tynan as a developer, or the community as a whole.
Seems the final verdict is - it's okay as a mod.
The world isn't ready tackle this yet, without having a social breakdown.
Much like how all real world violence was the result of all and games with shooting or killing in them 10 years ago. (Which some still like to try and push as anything but absurd.)
Quote from: Elixiar on December 17, 2016, 01:52:30 PM
Seems the final verdict is - it's okay as a mod.
Until we get "RimKids" in and some crazy ass player cut the wives legs only so they can create a farm of babies...
Quote from: Plymouth on December 15, 2016, 06:43:51 AM
Quote from: ArguedPiano on December 15, 2016, 06:32:22 AM
Some topics hit a little too close to home for some people.
This, is probably one of those topics.
We're playing a Science Fiction GAME afterall. I see no place for rape in Rimworld.
if there is cannibalism, murder, slavery, organ harvesting, why say no to rape?
But in real life, if you aren't a psychopath, chances are you won't be able to have enjoyable sex with a person who doesn't want it. As long as you remember that majority people can't commit rape, as well as can't kill another person, or can't eat another person without extremely strong motivator, I think it's a pretty solid ground to stand on. Only psychopaths and morally despicable individuals will engage, and only as a spontaneous mechanic over which you have no control, then it would make sense. But to create a sex slave you would need the whole colony of psychopaths, otherwise it might as well be just a slave since, well, people usually do not enjoy raping or being raped so the slave would be left alone.
TL;DR: I only see "forcelovin' slaves" activity as a spontaneous by-product of a psychopath trait.
Because rape may hit too close to home for several people including devs, players, and families of those. If you ever have a child, or significant other and they are raped or molested, or even if you are, feel free to reply with how you feel with rape being in this game.
The game has enough dark side gameplay.
Instead of the weird rape stuff. Why not use the pirate faction along with A16 features?
For example, if you become friendly with a pirate faction then you can visit their brothels. Not every pirate town will have one. The fact that you have to maintain a relationship with the pirates will help balance it out. Psychopaths and non-psychopaths alike love prostitutes.
There. Ugly pawns can get laid, and no rape involved. The brothels can even help alleviate travel related negative mood buffs.
Quote from: ArguedPiano on December 17, 2016, 08:48:30 AM
EDIT: Goldenpotatoes beat me to the post above ^ but here is my original post as I put some time into typing it out:
I think Goldenpotatoes put this perfectly earlier:
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on December 15, 2016, 06:47:22 AM
Just with majority of these suggestions, take a moment to look at the feature you're currently suggesting, and go: "Would this enhance gameplay enough to be worth adding?"
I can't think of any circumstance where what is essentially rape would actively enhance the game past the shock factor of 'wow they actually put that in the game?'
Quote from: mumblemumble on December 17, 2016, 04:18:35 AMIf its powerful enough to make people SCARED of the idea of it being added, its powerful enough to get someone seriously emotionally into a game.
It would also be powerful enough to make someone seriously disgusted at the fact that it is, or would be a feature.
I am willing to bet you would loose much more potential sale than you would gain by adding this feature.
After all, is that not what you want when you build a game? To make it as fun and enjoyable to as many people as possible?
And as fans of the game, do we not want to help grow a large, healthy community to encourage the growth of well asked for features such as personal caravans and the ability to raid other factions?
Sure it may be fun for some people to play out these events. Most may never even use the mechanic. But the public backlash would be IMMENSE, both from inside the community and much larger from out.
I can see no circumstances where rape would be beneficial to Tynan as a developer, or the community as a whole.
Quoted for truth
Quote from: Elixiar on December 17, 2016, 01:52:30 PM
Seems the final verdict is - it's okay as a mod.
The world isn't ready tackle this yet, without having a social breakdown.
Much like how all real world violence was the result of all and games with shooting or killing in them 10 years ago. (Which some still like to try and push as anything but absurd.)
I agree, if a modder wants to work on a full on complete system that would introduce this element. Good luck to them and I hope they add enough depth to make it 'interesting'. However that modder should also be aware they are drawing a target on their back (and by extension the developers). There are a lot of anti-gaming groups out there and the word "rape" generally evokes the imagery of abuse to women. I would like to state now I know it goes both ways and one of the great things about Rimword is it IS fairly unbiased in its' traits. I am also confident that the modder wouldn't do it as such either (against women). But outside groups wont see it that way. It may result in Tynan scolding the modder (I do not know). It is unfair, but a possibility.
In short, I would prefer Tynan to work on other stuff. Leave "rape" to a modder.
It's a matter of time before the taboo will be lifted, same as it was for cannibalism(the last most terrible thing that everyone was hush-hush about), murder, torture and so on.
But yes, to avoid outlash it would be most fitting if someone made a mod.
everyone knows it's a bad thing to cannibalize or murder people.
even if they do it in a game, most people aren't stupid enough to actually go use a game as their justification for doing the same thing in real life. (unless they're already totally fvcked up in the head in the first place, like a real life psychopath/sociopath/whatever)
same thing with goes with rape. just coz it's in a game, it doesn't mean people would actually go out and rape people. if that's truly the case then most video games should be banned for promoting violence, murder, theft, etc..
so not only do games not necessarily promote violence, rape, etc.. some people who suffered ptsd from witnessing violent deaths are still able to play video games that depicts violent deaths.
heck, i'm not even sure why rape and sexuality became a video game taboo in the first place.
sexuality is slowly getting accepted back into the mainstream coz of witcher,mass effect, skyrim mods, etc.. heck in skyrim mods, there's practically no taboo in that niche.
keylocke
There is no rape in Skyrim (outside mods).
But I guess you could just take the thread from the beginning and start reading, there are useful post in there, and what you said was posted several times already.
@konscience :
if you read what i post i specifically mentioned skyrim MODS. i mentioned that for the large number of exposure that it has, since i think some modders of that scene have already gone beyond the taboo barrier other people have imposed upon themselves.
secondly, the reason i posted is exactly because i already read the entire thread from the beginning. i was specifically addressing some of the posts talking about people that's gonna experience "trauma" from seeing rape in a game and they say that rape should only be restricted to mods.
so i went ahead and discussed how violence, murder, and cannibalism are in the main game, just like in many other games, and yet :
1) violence, murder, and cannibalism aren't perpetrated by every gamer who plays such games (people who do those things already have the tendency to do those things, with or without the game)
2) people who suffered trauma like PTSD from witnessing violent deaths can sometimes help cope with the trauma by experiencing it in a video game. i believe that rape victims might also be able to use such things as a therapy, allowing them to move on stronger than ever before, rather than perpetually seeing themselves as a helpless victim.
so those two things are the ones i address coz those are the main two reasons the people here have listed why they don't wanna see rape in a video game and why it is a "taboo".
but i call bs on that.. it simply does not compute under scrutiny.
inb4 : i can't speak for rape victims coz i haven't experienced their trauma. lel. i actually am one. got molested by a relative when i was a kid, then i grew up and punched him in the face, told him him i'd send the cops for him if i ever catch him doing it again.
now he's more terrified of me, than i ever was afraid of him.
you can't allow yourself to become a victim forever.
I've yet to see a compelling argument for how this would actively enhance the gameplay past a shock factor of 'they actually added this in?'
The more violent/gruesome aspects of the game are appropriate because the genre of the game lends itself to these events and the way those mechanics are implemented actually feel fleshed out and genuinely add to the gameplay.
Unless you plan on also getting a fleshed-out slavery system added along the prisoner system with appropriate colonist responses, you won't be handling the topic with the maturity it requires and will only feel tacked-on and only added for the shock value instead of actually being meaningful gameplay-wise.
why would rape be perpetually tied to slavery?
my guess is that it goes something like this :
-colonist1(straight m/f, bi, or gay) tries to seduce colonist2 and gets repeatedly rebuffed.
-colonist1 has a mental breakdown and goes on a social fight against colonist2 (this allows player to intervene during the altercation)
-if colonist1 gets colonist2 incapacitated, colonist1 will either try to carry colonist2 to a double bed or rape on the spot. (player can still intervene)
-if rape was successful, then everyone else in the colony would get a huge negative social rating against colonist1.
-there would be more social fights against colonist1, people could actually gang up on him/her. increasing the chances of killing colonist1 or causing permanent injury.
-rape is one of the viable crimes in the colony. just like going on a berserk murder rampage.
so why would anyone suggest to add crimes to rimworld? coz people aren't fvcking angels and as mentioned before, it's a powerful dark storyline.
but in the end it's a matter of bias. just like censorships are a matter of bias. or like how some people wanna add drinking and pissing mechanics in rimworld, while some people don't want it. like how some people wanted pets in rimworld but some people didn't want it (some even opposed it ages ago), there were also people who opposed the idea of traveling to other areas (but now, hello a16), heck we even have addictive substance abuse in a15.
the problem with bias is that no matter what amount of logic you try to use to convince another person who has an opposing bias, it is unlikely to work. coz bias are often tied to strong emotions, and emotions often trump logic most of the time. which is why people would often get trapped in an impasse.
it's really mostly a matter of preference. we've seen several times how many people opposed one idea, but the moment it gets implemented and people have started testing it out, things really aren't as bad or as irrelevant as people imagined it to be.
the closer to realism the game has, the more depth it gets. heck, i'm still one of the people who wants to see water requirements for drinking and pissing, and many other ideas thrown in.
-----
as for (forced) prostitution itself : i elaborated how such a system could work in a previous post. prostitution could work without needing to be "forced".
I wouldn't had anything to say if you had summarised and explained like you did in your reply ^^
I understand very well what you are trying to bring here, but it is more about a social media and public image issue, than breaking a tabou.
A good thing about this game is choice, let me explain:
Here, nobody is forced to deal with cannibalism, maybe a lot of people playing this game will never do it, because of choice and solutions given to them.
Same for prisonniers, it's all up to you to decide if you want do release them of do strange things that break the human rights law.
Hell they are even under anaesthetics so you can't even directly torture them neither attack them if they are prisoners.
Then come the sex topic.
Yes, it is taboo.
Not it is not allowed on Rimworld, on steam, on most legal video game retailers worldwide. Hence the "lovin' " action when colonist snu-snu.
And here I'm only talking about sex, nothing fancy I admit, but we are in society, there are laws, and there are mass media fallouts if you make too much noise. (see for reference the RPS issue).
Then, here is another level, our actual topic, "rape".
That's not the same as killing someone in a legit conflict. Rape is classified at the same level as torture.
wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity#Rape_and_sexual_violence
Just a bit of information, nothing much to make a point really, it's just for illustrating my opinion.
Sure it would be hard to come by and it would be in the core game since the beginning, AND we still would be in 2000, maybe "optional rape" would not make much noise.
But here we are today when some random idiot spread bullshit about gender equality, it make such noise that I'm sure lot of people had second thought before buying the game. Even I, was asking myself if that was true, despite being aware that such articles are loads of BS...
Now, just, just imagine a bit, what would happen, if rape came into Rimworld.
What if some funny bastard would come, and started a nice clicbait article titled "RimWorld: where you must rape women to beat the game"
And don't tell me "it will never happen" or "I'm making things up"
You know deep inside this could happen.
And consequences would be just irrecoverable
I don't think a lot of people would buy the game after reading such article, don't you think?...
TL;DR : read the whole post, else it is meaningless.
@konscience : "RimWorld: where you must rape women to beat the game" <--- you keep telling me to read the whole posts, but if you even bothered to read my post you won't make the mistake of saying this, since i don't think anyone has ever said that rape was ever gonna be required to "beat the game".
it's such a blatant strawman argument and if there's any journalist out there willing to make that clickbait article, there's also enough people who'd write and prove them wrong.
heck, it's not that hard to write and submit an article or a review of the game ahead of a stable release, getting ahead of any clickbait articles that could damage the game and being able to explain the new feature in such a way that any liberal or conservative would say.. "ah, ok i'm cool with that if THAT'S how they implemented it"
rape isn't a juvenile topic. heck, some of the award winning films involves rape. though it makes some people uneasy, it's really not something people should censor.
why? coz ignorance doesn't save anyone.
heck, when i was a kid i had absolutely no friggin idea what rape was or what gay people was. i didn't even bother to ask my parents what it was coz i had totally no clue about it until i was almost in highschool. i didn't know what to be careful of and who to be careful of. totally friggin defenseless.
so nope. i actually think rape shouldn't be a taboo topic nor should it be censored. people needs to be aware of what it is and how to avoid it, especially the people who are most vulnerable to it, instead of being kept in the blind just to please other people's "sensitivities".
Rape and slavery do exist in Rimworld. It's just that civilized people don't practice it, i.e. you're playing colonists not raiders. In addition, rape and slavery are just distasteful even if they are realistic. In many ways, they are WORSE than so many imaginary horrors because of how close to reality they are.
Prostitution, on the other hand, would be a good addition especially for pawns that are only good at social things. That and bartenders, shopkeepers, school teachers, etc...
To all who replied here:
I would like to say that I like where this discussion is going, many valid points have been raised, and I've just got a bit more hope in humanity and humanity's ability to use reals over feels. Keep it up! :D
Cannibalism is in the game because this is a survival game and you can potentially be reduced to eating people in order to survive the harsh environment. It's an obvious and well-known extremity of trying to survive in terrible conditions.
Adding rape and sexual slavery to the game has nothing to do with survival, and everything to do with trying to package your kink into the game. We don't even have a dynamic water system in our game all about wilderness survival yet, but people are seriously debating the merits of adding *rape* into the game, and patting each other on the back for being so 'mature' in discussing it like 'grown ups'. Real grown ups, in person, simply glare irritably at foolishness like this until the purveyor of it wilts under the weight of their own idiocy, and then get on with something important.
Perspective. You have none. It isn't 'political correctness' that prevents discussions like these, and you're not some kind of mature, counter cultural hero for having the discussion in the face of the scary PC brigade, or SJW, or whatever ridiculous labels you're using today. It's a simple case of people knowing that "Hey, lets add rape to the game" is the sort of thing that rightfully gets you looked at like a tool by everyone else in the room in the real world, then ignored like a child. This isn't intellectual empowerment, it's degeneracy trying to couch itself in such terms, like creationism trying to wear science like some hideous skinsuit to get into the Totally Legit And Evidential Club.
This thread is like a sentence started with, "Ok, I'm not racist, but......"
meh, there's a bunch of people here who repeatedly say it's irrelevant, juvenile, perverted.. those are their main arguments.
but the question is WHY? why single out rape? it's not something special compared to murder, torture, and cannibalism. it's like the people doing this are not even conscious about their own bias of creating this inane taboo about this topic.
meanwhile, to some people like me who actually experienced it first hand. i realized ages ago that either i killed myself or get over it.. (i found this song by blackbox recorder that sang : life is unfair, kill yourself or get over it) it really made a mark. i got over it. i hate the drama.
i was born from strict catholic parents, was educated in a catholic school, sang in a choir at church. i lived a cushy sheltered life when i was a kid inside that illusory "safe space" bubble that my parents and environment created for me, completely ignorant about my own ignorance.
but that "safe space" bubble is an illusion. rape was just an abstraction for me like a bogeyman, something so vague and unreal that i thought it was just a joke. it's not something you actually believe until you see the horror of it. which is why to the social justice warriors, i think they're shooting themselves in the foot whenever they censor things coz it fosters ignorance to the people who are most vulnerable to it. so who exactly are they fighting for other than their own personal bias? the same like everyone else, just wrapped up in so much hypocrisy.
so what does this got anything to do with rimworld? rimworld is a story generator. it fits there like water, zlevels, kids, pets, travel, prostitution, surgery, etc.. coz there's really no set limitations to a sandbox game.
usually only 2 things factored for putting a feature into a game :
1) technical issues (zlevels and multiplayer seems to fall in this category)
2) bias (taboo topics, relevance, fun, etc.. fall in this category)
what is relevant, what is fun, what is taboo, etc.. are all based on personal bias. no matter how much logic is given, nobody is ever gonna be forced to like something they dislike to the core, and vice versa. because bias is not based on logic, it is based on emotions and personal preference.
tl;dr : i acknowledge other people's bias are incompatible with mine. no more and no less. i merely address how funny it is to rationalize something based on bias. (ie : why is rimworld scifi western? it's what tynan wants. why does the game play like DF combined with RTS? coz it's what tynan wants. most of the game features by most games are based on the personal bias of their creators or their fans)
in essence, it's like this entire topic is an argument whether which one is better : bitter or sour?
there's no single answer that's gonna be accepted as 100% true. and i guess, that's the main point of my post. it's an impasse.
this suggestion depends on what type of game it is. this is a game based on dwarf fortress - where dick jokes and fun lava-death traps are king.
this type of thing belongs in games like GTA 5. rimworld is more of a quirky base building game.
for example - cannibalism. sure, it's really odd, but to be honest, you could do it in real life if you really wanted to. same as eating your pets.
but forced prostitution, rape and torture are in a whole different place. there has been a clear line which has been drawn, and it's dick jokes, that's the most sexual you can get in rimworld.
No, just no. Organ harvesting is supposed to be done in humane ways. No matter how you do it, the game doesn't let you not use proper medicine. And concerning the ability to consume a corpse or make clothes from human leather, this is a survival game. If you could do nothing else to shelter yourself from the cold but butcher corpses for leather then you would do it. Similar to stories of people who had to eat each other to survive. And this word "survive" is what matters.
So no, sex (forced or consenting) would not be a survival matter since you can survive without it. But you cannot survive without clothes or food. And you can't survive with failing lungs and kidneys and heart etc. That's why there's human meat, human leather and organ harvesting. And the reason why they put lovers in the game is just because it's natural. Rape isn't.
Also, you said "so it's ok to butcher limbs and harvest organs for fun" or something along those lines. No, it's not ok to do it for fun. Again, this is a survival game. You do it because you need it. Even if you're going to sell it, you need the silver to buy other stuff like food, medicine, etc. And it's done "humanely". (I put this word in quotes because that's what supposedly happens - we don't get to see it, we just imagine it.) And since you get a ton of negative buffs if you harvest organs or sell the prisoners, or even just kill them, and positive buffs if you're good, then the game makes you (at least want to) think in a good way.
So think survival. And what would naturally happen. Both of these.
Quote from: keylocke on December 23, 2016, 01:03:16 AM
... it's not something you actually believe until you see the horror of it. which is why to the social justice warriors, i think they're shooting themselves in the foot whenever they censor things coz it fosters ignorance to the people who are most vulnerable to it...
Complete censorship is not productive, but implementing on-camera rape in this genre of video game turns it into a terrible and desensitizing joke.
If you want to use a video game as a tool to talk about rape, it's not the rape itself you need to be putting on display, it's
how to stop it. Creepy pawns getting disliked by non-psychopath pawns on account of their creepiness; all nearby non-psychopaths insulting/starting social fights with the creep when the creep "tries to woo" someone who dislikes them; non-psychopath pawns telling all their buddies to watch out for that creep, and spread the dislike debuff to their friends; any pawn with a rapist/murderer backstory having a permanent "guilty" flag, something like that.
Quote from: MAKAIROSI on December 23, 2016, 09:18:07 AM
...And the reason why they put lovers in the game is just because it's natural. Rape isn't.
...
Hardly. Rape happens literally ALL the time in the animal kingdom. Lice have to physically stab through the female's carapace to impregnate them. Slugs (who are hermaphrodites) have actual rape-fights trying to forcibly impregnate the other first. But that's besides the point. Rape is not something we need in the game, no more than we need any other degenerate content.
Tynan will
never add it. If you want a mod for perverts then go ask some degenerate modder.
I don't think any game creator in their right mind is going to add any feature like this. It's in bad taste and it stirs a lot of trouble.
Mods are different, I don't like the idea of rape, I'd honestly rather not see it when I play Rimworld. Make a mod, have fun with whatever you believe. I'm as much as a Sadist as the next when it comes to this game but that goes beyond my borders and a good few others as well.
Rape happens in real life, yes but it doesn't mean it should be made light in an argument about adding it into a game. Cruel truth I know, but part of playing a game is to escape from real life for a time being. Lets not fill it up with a ton of realism details, otherwise you may as well not play and be experiencing the real world for those 2 hours or however long you play. This is for people that think like me, everyone has their preferences but overall I don't see the majority of Rimworld players enjoying this feature. Game is made to appeal to a majority, add something like rape to it in the basic game, I expect that majority to fall off.
TL:DR Make a mod if you want it, that way you can do as you please without hearing others bicker.
Just my two cent.
I agree. Implementing this would be much too controversial and has the risk of drawing criticism that Ludeon would not deem worth the effort. While I do see your point about organ harvesting and cannibalism, you have to understand that rape is a great deal more sensitive of an issue.
Make a mod!
Show of hands, people!
How many of you have had your left lung harvested?
How many of you had to resort to cannibalism to survive?
I have....
In games.
Quote from: Thirite on December 23, 2016, 03:12:32 PM
Quote from: MAKAIROSI on December 23, 2016, 09:18:07 AM
...And the reason why they put lovers in the game is just because it's natural. Rape isn't.
...
Hardly. Rape happens literally ALL the time in the animal kingdom. Lice have to physically stab through the female's carapace to impregnate them. Slugs (who are hermaphrodites) have actual rape-fights trying to forcibly impregnate the other first.
When i said "naturally" i didn't mean "happens in nature" but "happens naturally" (i don't know how else to put it). By that i meant that if you are in a colony it would be almost impossible to escape developing feelings for someone. It's not specifically about survival, but you can't escape it. Maybe i chose the wrong word?
I have actually been typing a lot only to delete it all because this whole thing about the animal kingdom and the human kingdom and their differences was not even my point. It's the future! Let's just say that rape has been erased and get on with it.
I just wanted to pop in here and say that I'm impressed with you guys. You're all handling the topics of rape & prostitution calmly and rationally even though you all have different perspectives and opinions. Keep it up! :)
I now return you to the conversation already in process.
Quote from: ArguedPiano on December 17, 2016, 08:48:30 AM
Quote from: mumblemumble on December 17, 2016, 04:18:35 AMIf its powerful enough to make people SCARED of the idea of it being added, its powerful enough to get someone seriously emotionally into a game.
It would also be powerful enough to make someone seriously disgusted at the fact that it is, or would be a feature.
I am willing to bet you would loose much more potential sale than you would gain by adding this feature.
After all, is that not what you want when you build a game? To make it as fun and enjoyable to as many people as possible?
And as fans of the game, do we not want to help grow a large, healthy community to encourage the growth of well asked for features such as personal caravans and the ability to raid other factions?
Sure it may be fun for some people to play out these events. Most may never even use the mechanic. But the public backlash would be IMMENSE, both from inside the community and much larger from out.
I can see no circumstances where rape would be beneficial to Tynan as a developer, or the community as a whole.
Something else to consider is if those who detest the game and refuse to buy it due to a feature are MORE than the people who would be intrigued by the addition.
Any decision can "lose sales" or "popularity" but is it more than what is gained?
For comparison, postal 2, a game which actually IS pretty morally reprehensible (this is a game you can use a cat as a silencer for a shotgun...) Actually has very good sales because, despite those whom say it is unforgivable, OTHERS see this, and it causes a backlash.
And this backlash is something to consider...as much as we all hated the RPS article on gender, it did create sales.
And you must also consider, someone vowing "I will never buy it!" is less important than "I JUST BOUGHT IT". Because someone vowing to never buy may of never bought it anyway. I can vow never to buy an airplane, but this means nothing if I never planned to do so anyway.
--------------
Maka, the words you are looking for is "Happens acceptably in current society". This is true, but this has nothing to do with nature, and isn't "natural". Nature boils down to men wish to mate. And when unaltered by society, rules, or other issues, rape is VERY natural actually. If a man has a desire to mate, and has never been told once in his life to consider if a girl wants it, why would he?
Also, I doubt rape has been removed from the entire universe, that is just silly. For 2 reasons
First, as you said, its impossible to keep from developing feelings, and contrary to what feminists say, not all rape is done out of a desire to inflict pain... Sometimes its literally a case of someone wants someone, the other doesn't and its forced...out of a slightly twisted expression of affection. Sure, you can argue its immoral, by the standards of its effects on society, but the motive is still the same, even if the effect is not.
On the other end of the spectrum is point 2... Rape as a means of sadism, destruction, and control for personal pleasure. Keep in mind raiders are a thing in this. Why would raiders draw the line at rape? Its very common in criminals to not care about LAWS, even if they care about morals, because if one breaks laws already, why not break more? (its why the idea of gun control is broken....because you know, spree shooters wont give a fuck about your gun free zone) For raiders, this applies to their morals too...if morally (because morals are the motiv behind much of the stuff in rimworld, given the lack of overarching law, outside the reach of colonists exercising force to THEIR morals...because this is what law is) raiders are ok with murder, theft, mutilation, drugs, ect, why would they abhore rape?
We must look at why exactly we abhore ANYTHING in society.
Rape...murder...canibalism... drug use...mutilation... All of these have very rational reasons to be squeemish about.
Rape is stigmatized because societally, women are valuable, and having a woman "damaged" or "used" is damaging both physically and psychologically. So unless theres a good chance of the mate staying, we are apprehensive..and rape is certainly a good example of where the mate may leave, not to mention the sudden change of pace can have emotional and psychological effects.
Murder is stigmatized because its an irreversible damage, with far reaching effects, on friends, family, and the cultural rate of mercy as well (cultures with higher violence rates are less merciful, as violence is normalized) And most people generally wish to have mercy for themselves, friends, and family.
Cannibalism is stigmatized similarly to murder, because its extremely undignified for the dead, and devalues humans and humanity. It makes humans "less sacred" if they are viewed to be something to be consumed, which saps self esteem, self worth, and self value.
Drugs are stigmatized because they can cause intense psychological disturbances, physical anomalies, and damages related to them, destabilizing the person and those around them, and subjecting the person / those around them to damage in attempt to feed the addiction.
Now considering ALL of these... ...Please consider, and think about, if someone would be fine with the stigma and risks of murder, cannibalism, and drugs...yet wouldn't be ok with rape, particularly with an "outsider". Because that is another factor, is applying morality based on "tribes" (i use the term tribe for any tight knit group). Where a "tribe" might treat outsiders with different rules than insiders. A tribe may think murder, theft is ok for outsiders, but bad for insiders (very common) and this could apply to rape as well. A raider might not rape anyone in the pirate faction, but someone from the colony? Fuck those guys... This is what they might think, because they are an outsider, and irrelevant.
The only way this would not apply is if they attempt to treat others fairly, which pirates dont do. They accept others hate them, and are enemies with them, and theres little to no motivation to not rape. Because, going back to the first motive of rape, attraction...if a raider captures a pretty girl, and fancies her...what, morally, will stop him from rape, if morally he already has 0 respect for her and her tribe?...Anything? If he already does not care for, or respect the will of others outside his tribe, why would he respect the woman saying no, when he has the desire to mate with her? A man not raping COMES from respect for the woman, and if respect for her is not a thing, how can rape be prevented?
Unless someone can answer this, there's not much more I can say.
QuoteFor comparison, postal 2, a game which actually IS pretty morally reprehensible (this is a game you can use a cat as a silencer for a shotgun...) Actually has very good sales because, despite those whom say it is unforgivable, OTHERS see this, and it causes a backlash.
Postol 2 is meant to be a dark humor game, but it's mostly shooting people. GTA is pretty much the same, but none of these have anything about rape, maybe topic wise? (I haven't really played either.) But not an actual feature in their games.
There are always going to be those moral breaking games, there was even one released recently last year or so about some guy going on a killing spree. It's mindless murder but it doesn't do much beyond that. Most of these games draw a line in the sand, even if it's close.
I also very much the creator would like to put in rape features, not to mention a lot of higher priorities on his list. I don't care if it becomes a mod, which someone could make but I'd rather not have it waved in our faces as a vanilla game feature.
If it's made into a mod there's no huge backlash on the company or the game, it's just something someone made to enhance the game for them self and others whom may enjoy it as well. That way people don't want to cross that border don't have to deal with it or feel they need speak out against it.
Well, postal guy gets abducted by rednecks and almost raped in a gimp suit at one point so..It almost has that. not to mention theres a lot of BDSM themes here and there anyways.
I get the whole line in the sand thing, except for SIMULATORS, especially simulators of the good and bad of humanity (rimworld does well at this) trying to hide the worst just seems very artificial. Its like trying to see a cartoon villain as evil when they never kill anyone.
....still want someone to answer my question on why a raider wouldn't rape a girl...
Quote from: mumblemumble on December 24, 2016, 11:46:35 AM
-snip-
The only way to stop in that situation rape from commencing is for a girl to stop the raider with an overwhelming force, which, while very unlikely to happen in the first place, will bring the wrath of his tribe upon her, and she will be even worse off than before, possibly even dead.
But, to answer your second question, and to be exact "why a raider wouldn't rape a girl", raider might be a person who never enjoyed raping anyone, and he might prefer to avoid raping at all costs since, well, it's a horrible experience for him. Matter of personal preference, but no, nobody can forcibly stop him in the society where it's morally justifiable to not consider outsiders on the same level as the insiders, the only person who might stop him is the girl in question, but it's very unlikely that no retaliation will follow.
But that makes little sense.....why would a raider find murder, theft, drug use, mutilation, ect "a damn fun time" but then suddenly be very serious about rape?
I mean sure...this MIGHT exist, but why the fuck would such a person be a raider to begin with? Such a person would be miserable in a pirate band if they found such events distressing.
And again, rape is a very broad word, encompassing anything from being beaten, stabbed, and damaged in every possible way, to JUST sex which is not consensual. And for the 2nd definition, I doubt it would register on the moral radar for someone regularly murdering people.
There are some people that do a lot of bad that still draw a line in the sand. Some people don't mind murdering, selling drugs or stuff like that but some actually do not like the idea of raping someone, it really depends on the person. Raider that thinks like that would just likely kill her or ransom her.
Also I already see enough bad in humanity, just look at the news. It shouldn't be filled with so much realism that you would actually pick real life over playing a game to escape it for an hour or two. Not all simulators are 100% realism, also I'm not 100% against this I just prefer not see it a basic feature in the game. As I said some modder can likely easily make this for people who want it.
Quote from: Scythah on December 15, 2016, 07:43:33 AM
There was outrage over the relationship system... I can only imagine the RPS article if this concept was included. Not that I think it wouldn't be feasible or anything, but it's one of those things that would undoubtedly generate bad publicity for not a whole lot of benefit.
I don't really care to see this idea implemented, but it kind of irks me the wrong way, thinking about how much influence a bunch of click-bait writers have over gaming.
Quote from: Hikurac on December 24, 2016, 03:56:04 PM
I don't really care to see this idea implemented, but it kind of irks me the wrong way, thinking about how much influence a bunch of click-bait writers have over gaming.
They don't, though. It may appear that way but it's really just the internet, an 'outrage' can be caused by a few motivated and energetic individuals. Everyone that passes by might come to the conclusion that this affects many people when in reality it really doesn't. I don't think Rimworld or Ludeon Studios really took any damage from this incident - I'd guess it pretty much had zero measurable impact. Developers shouldn't worry about internet backlashes at all.
That being said and considering this very specific topic, I'd say it would be much smarter to leave it to modders because of how our society currently works. It's not about the why or if it makes sense or not, it's simply a matter of what is.
that still sounds like an anecdotal argument.
i mean, these aren't 2 bit thugs we are talking about, who kill people who are just "on their turf", these are pirates who use warfare as a LIFESTYLE.
People in that culture I simply cannot see extending mercy to others in any form that isn't profitable.
Quote from: MAKAIROSI on December 24, 2016, 10:11:19 AM
Quote from: Thirite on December 23, 2016, 03:12:32 PM
Quote from: MAKAIROSI on December 23, 2016, 09:18:07 AM
...And the reason why they put lovers in the game is just because it's natural. Rape isn't.
...
Hardly. Rape happens literally ALL the time in the animal kingdom. Lice have to physically stab through the female's carapace to impregnate them. Slugs (who are hermaphrodites) have actual rape-fights trying to forcibly impregnate the other first.
When i said "naturally" i didn't mean "happens in nature" but "happens naturally" (i don't know how else to put it). By that i meant that if you are in a colony it would be almost impossible to escape developing feelings for someone. It's not specifically about survival, but you can't escape it. Maybe i chose the wrong word?
It's called empathy, or lacking that, a conscience. A valuable trait indeed for the rational man.
There's also a unique 'sex slave' background saying that this pawn was bred and engineered to be the perfect prostitute or something like that. But still, actual rape happening in the game itself during gameplay is another story, and one that would be wise not to tell in the vanilla game. For the same reason why drugs have fantasy names instead of real ones, we also don't know how valve would react if sexually explicit material revolving around rape was listed in their store. It's simply not worth it and why not let modders do the job without any risk for themselves and the game?
Heres something to consider...which is worse? Saying women with sex slave backgrounds, or such like that are willing "massive whores" who at the age they were deflowered, were 100% willing to throw their innocence away, and thus deserve no sympathy as they were fully willing? Or to say the girl got raped?
Think... ..very carefully before answering that.
I think its actually extremely offensive to assume a woman could not be raped, as its literally assuming sex slaves were just BORN slutty. And thats pretty much the epitome of sexism.
Maybe its just me, but I think its more offensive to say a woman was a whore who decided to become a prostitute by her own choice as a teenager, than to just admit she got raped, and forced into it.
One is literally victim blaming, another is acknowledging the grim reality.
SOOOOOOOOOOOO....
Do you want to blame sex slaves for being whores, or admit they might of been raped? Your call.
Quote from: mumblemumble on December 24, 2016, 06:27:20 PM
that still sounds like an anecdotal argument.
i mean, these aren't 2 bit thugs we are talking about, who kill people who are just "on their turf", these are pirates who use warfare as a LIFESTYLE.
People in that culture I simply cannot see extending mercy to others in any form that isn't profitable.
For a well documented example of resistance to this particular form of nastiness, the pirate captain Zheng Shi had pirates who raped captives put to death.
In general, I'd agree with the sentiments I've seen that 1) it'll cause too much fuss for Ludeon and alienate too many people for it to be a remotely good idea in the core game, and that 2) all the other horrible things are much less commonly experienced by people than sexual assault. No-one who doesn't want this as a game feature is saying that wearing dead people as hats isn't bad, but I don't personally know anyone who has been affected by that (and nor does anyone else here). I wish I could say the same of sexual violence, but I really really can't.
I can understand that, and that is a very valid point, sexual issues is far more home hitting than other issues. But that is where I think it could make for an amazing game, where punches aren't pulled, and things have impact.
Its like how children don't die in most movies / games, particularly not in grisly ways. This is to pull punches, to prevent trauma, but they end up being less spectacular.
Fallout 2 comes to mind, containing child murder, and I think even rape. It had some truly nasty stuff in it, and it made it all the more interesting...
it comes down to one simple question, which we must ask ourselves : Which is more important, amazing stories, or protecting emotions of the feeble?
Also, that is one example yes, but on the other hand you have rape as a weapon of war, rape gangs in struggling countries, ISIS sex slave trades (spoiler, they don't need "CONSENT", because they are sex slaves...they RAPE the girls) and other stuff.
Given all this, I find it impossible to believe rape was annihilated, as the cause of rape is one intrinsic to human nature : Conflict, in this case, conflict of desires.
I feel implementing such a thing well would be so difficult it is simply not worth it. Just how would one do it tastefully enough without washing out all the emotional impact of it? Rape is considered a special kind of evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil) by many, worse than even murder, and Rimworld isn't really able to convey that much emotional depth, the player's perspective is simply too distant. There's also mechanical problems with this: how do you properly show the psychological damage of rape without implementing some special system for it? How do you allow people's colonists to be the good guys who don't rape without adding some kind of a morals system? Those things would be acceptable for Dwarf Fortress, but one of the biggest draws of Rimworld is accessibility, and implementing two new mechanics for the sake of a single new feature is hard to justify.
If you want to handle rape as the very sensitive topic it is, your best bet is to make a game akin to This War of Mine, centered on the thing itself, or use it in a dark your-choices-matter RPG. Doing it in Rimworld may be possible, but there are so many other features to implement that would bring more benefit at a fraction of the cost.
Problem is, rape is actually more vague than people want to admit.
Rape is literally anytime a person doesn't agree to sex...but in a sexually active relationship, or marriage, the damage is minimal.
but rape like the raiders would do, well...yeah, I can agree thats pretty bad, and much more traumatic.
I do think a morals / culture system would be an amazing idea, on its own merits though.
I would like to thank everyone on keeping such a sensitive topic on track and constructive and mature for 6 pages. I know many forums that couldn't get past page 1.
That said the discussion has moved to other touchy mechanics in the game.
Lets look at drugs in games (Rimworld, Fallout series) and such.
None of these drugs are DIRECTLY named after a real drug. *Smokeleaf* is the best example here.
There are reasons that it isn't just a copied name. Legal reasons. It may be suggested that such a real life example may encourage impressionable young minds to reproduce game mechanics in real life.
Child murder, it always irked me in Bethesda's Fallout games and Skyrim that kids couldn't die. A dragon blast to their face and they run around like little monkeys on fire. I use mods that allow kids to die.
But that isn't the issue, the issue is why a company such as Bethesda, a company that attempts to make a world open and choice filled decides to not allow children to die.
Legal reasons.
Sex workers and sex slaves are backgrounds from character generation. But they themselves don't impact on the way the game is played. Just the starting skills and work restrictions. The words/stories are just flavor text.
As a poster said before there has not been said any reason FOR having it in the game. Just because other gruesome elements (cannibalism) are in the game doesn't mean rape needs to be. Cannibalism is inherently about survival. Rape is about power. This is a survival game.
I would suggest that incorporating the mechanic of rape into the game proper may move the games classification to 'Adult'. Potentially reducing sales AND no matter the argument for it, rape isn't an essential element to play the game.
I think it is a certainty to say that rape should NOT and will NOT be in the core game.
A better discussion should be - how to make rape a worthwhile mechanic in a mod. How to implement it, use it, have NPC factions that use it. How it would impact faction relations, social relations/relationships. Whether there would be traits and moods and their duration/strength.
Whether such an act would be the result or result in a fight. Would other pawns/pets get involved in such a fight. Would there need to be a crime/justice system implemented. Would there be a counseling system that needs to be implemented?
A person that got raped would presumably suffer a great mood debuff. Would they effectively become useless? Always going berserk or wandering in a daze? Would it be possible to implement rape as a punishment for certain crimes? The list goes on and on.
I strongly urge people to drop the discussion about rape in the core game (it ain't gonna happen) and move to how [if it should] work in a mod.
Rape isn't exclusively about power, its often times about desire for one who does not desire back.
Also, my biggest qualm is people trying to argue that rape has been eliminated from the entire universe , which is just STUPIDLY unrealisitic. I can understand rape not being a mechanic, but to say rape somehow never happens anywhere ever is just...mind numbingly dumb to assume.
As for in the core game, I kinda disagree...even if it had a tickbox filter, similar to hotline miami 2, for those who are emotionally fragile, It could add much to stories.
Quote from: mumblemumble on December 24, 2016, 11:40:23 PM
Rape isn't exclusively about power, its often times about desire for one who does not desire back.
Also, my biggest qualm is people trying to argue that rape has been eliminated from the entire universe , which is just STUPIDLY unrealisitic. I can understand rape not being a mechanic, but to say rape somehow never happens anywhere ever is just...mind numbingly dumb to assume.
As for in the core game, I kinda disagree...even if it had a tickbox filter, similar to hotline miami 2, for those who are emotionally fragile, It could add much to stories.
Forcing yourself upon someone who refuses you is about power. Morality and respect put aside, If you were not strong enough to take what you wanted (sex) you wouldn't do it.
Miami 2 is a very different game to Rimworld. Again the comparison has to be drawn to the core idea and that is violence (Miami) vs survival (Rimworld). I am not saying rape isn't non-existent, I agree with you. But there are other more similarly aligned games to Rimworld that do not feature rape (Dwarf-Fortress and Prison Architect). If ever there were a good game to incorporate rape into it would be PA. But they haven't. There are reasons for WHY they haven't, real world reasons.
I go back to my questions though. What would YOU do if one of your colonists raped another colonist.
The rapist now has a taken a massive hit to the social relationships with the victim (which may result in fights) and the victims friends.
The victim has a long lasting mood debuff and is always breaking down, wandering or going berserk. Effectively making the victim useless from a production pov.
Barring any justice system and no children in the game and only using the tools we the players have now. What do you do?
This is a question that needs to be answered because it is WHY we are having the discussion at all. Rape may be a powerful motivational tool. But only if it were made properly.
Quote from: deslona link=topic=28053.msg288355#msg288355
Forcing yourself upon someone who refuses you is about power. Morality and respect put aside, If you were not strong enough to take what you wanted (sex) you wouldn't do it.
.. ... ... ... :o
Let me apply this to 5 other random things.
If you were not strong enough to make a sandwich, you wouldn't do it.
If you were not strong enough to wipe your ass, you wouldn't do it.
If you were not strong enough to get out of bed, you wouldn't do it.
If you were not strong enough to clean your room, you wouldn't do it.
If you were not strong enough to stand up for yourself, you wouldn't do it.
Thus, by your logic, making a sandwich, wiping your ass, getting out of bed, cleaning your room, and standing up for yourself are also EQUALLY about power, if I'm understanding your logic correctly. If not, please elaborate more, because this is what im getting out of it, that exercising of power means something is ABOUT power.
....This is why I find the argument silly, its pretty much just conjecture. Just because someone exerts power to do something, doesn't mean its "about" power. I can stop someone from hurting someone, and use force to stop them, but thats not about power either, its about protecting others.
Really, "about" is vague anyway. Rape is not about just 1 thing, its about many things... we should instead ask what the cause is.
As for, if I was in a real scenario, mayor, and encountered a raped woman? (I assume woman) It really depends... Although your kinda twisting the question by saying "just the tools we have now".
If it INDEED was a traumatic, beat-down, awful rape like you imply, I would probably execute the rapist, but honestly I doubt they would be that simple all the time.
If it was honestly a man who, otherwise was useful, productive, and didn't mutilate or beat the woman, I would force a marriage and have a sentence in jail for a time, perhaps a talk with the warden with him, to ensure he will own up to the responsibility he had taken upon himself.
If it was a person raping anothers wife, well...to the chopping block.
Same sex assault, well... chopping block, or lashings, depending on the severity and damage
You are correct it would need the right tools, I agree, but this is why asking such a question, framed in such a way it counter-intuitive... adding in such things would need varying social effects, varied victim reactions, varied colonist reactions, and varied ways to go about treating it. Also saying no kids, no justice system, ect....well, these inherently would lead to a very poor modeling of rape ANYWAY...
I realize my views upset people, but again id rather embrace truth and not fear examining it...
And again, you must look at what the effects are... As much as people detest the part in the bible of women marrying rapists...there's a valid point behind it.
Women, PARTICULARLY virgins are very damaged by rape, not so much by the sex itself, but the idea that they were taken by a man, and have lost their innocence, but will also not have one to care for them.
And marriage is not a 1 sided thing, its binding for BOTH the man and woman...sure the man "gets a wife" but hes also tied down with obligation.
If we compare to other scenarios, where say, a man is straight up jailed..the woman is now "used" and is less desirable as a wife, and the man who was her first is now gone. This is almost forgotten in todays society, but simply, virgins are far more valuable as mates than non virgins..they are more likely to be faithful, are less problematic, and fit to shape you better than one who misses old lovers.
So in these contexts, especially virginity robbing rape, I think that is an applicable fix, as it minimized damage along both parties lifetime, and tries to salvage things.
But yes, when you shape the scenario like that, where rape is simply added, is a random occurrence you can do absolutely nothing about... Yeah, it looks like a dumb idea. But thats because you shape it that way.
I'd rather Tynan just dedicate resources to filling out factions gameplay or travel or something, rather than Alpha 17: The Redpill Update.
nobody was insisting it be a17, or 18, and nobody was even saying en entire update needed to me made JUST for that.
Beyond that, someone isn't a troll JUST because you don't like their opinions.
Stop being divisive and aggressive, the community here is based on calm, polite discussions, and inflammatory comments like that (and names like that) really don't help.
If you do not like my opinion, this is your right, but please debate them in a civilized manner rather than making snide comments like that.
I DO agree a17 should refine what a16 started (as nice as a16 is, the huge updates means huge problems developed :P ) but you are being incredibly off topic, and not really adding to the discussion.
If you would like, please, provide an argument, reasoning, and what negative effects you think would happen if these features would be added, and I will listen.
There's already been a ton of discussion about it and it seems like everything that needs to be said or could be said about putting it in the game has been said. The one reason above all being that it's not worth the risk of being pulled from Steam or branded Adult when a modder could easily just make it themselves at no risk to anybody.
Beyond that, it really just seems like you want to keep the discussion about rape going. Observe this alongside your long-winded posts in this and other, conveniently redpill themed threads in on-topic subforums, and I start to get the impression that you have some sort of agenda here. I really don't care if you do but I'd rather you just be honest about instead of making "technically" on-topic threads so you can post long, increasingly off-topic comments.
Last I checked rape scenes don't get a game immediately banned, and this is for GRAPHIC scenes, which rimworld cannot have.
Yes, it would get a bit of backlash, but other games, and other media has gotten scrutiny for similar stuff and not been removed.
And you saying that everything has already been said is opinion, attempting to turn the narrative towards locking the thread because YOU do not enjoy such topics.
If you have anything else, PLEASE just PM me, I don't want this thread, or other parts of the forums to devolve into flamewars..
Quote from: mumblemumble on December 24, 2016, 09:03:20 PM
Heres something to consider...which is worse? Saying women with sex slave backgrounds, or such like that are willing "massive whores" who at the age they were deflowered, were 100% willing to throw their innocence away, and thus deserve no sympathy as they were fully willing? Or to say the girl got raped?
Think... ..very carefully before answering that.
I think its actually extremely offensive to assume a woman could not be raped, as its literally assuming sex slaves were just BORN slutty. And thats pretty much the epitome of sexism.
Maybe its just me, but I think its more offensive to say a woman was a whore who decided to become a prostitute by her own choice as a teenager, than to just admit she got raped, and forced into it.
One is literally victim blaming, another is acknowledging the grim reality.
SOOOOOOOOOOOO....
Do you want to blame sex slaves for being whores, or admit they might of been raped? Your call.
The word 'slave' has already some heavy implications regarding to whether this is a forced condition or not.
Trust me, I'm aware, I just feel I need to spell this out to people who are seemingly immune to logic, and insist rape has been eradicated in ALL OF THE GALAXY. I'm usually pretty patient, but that kind of idea, especially given the lore, and that background... ..it makes me want to hit my head against a wall.
We cant eliminate rape in a single COUNTRY, let alone the entire galaxy.
But if rape was eliminated, this would mean the sex slaves were completely willing, which very much is a VALID form of victim blaming....and I hate that term.
Quote from: mumblemumble on December 25, 2016, 12:40:11 AM
Quote from: deslona link=topic=28053.msg288355#msg288355
Forcing yourself upon someone who refuses you is about power. Morality and respect put aside, If you were not strong enough to take what you wanted (sex) you wouldn't do it.
.. ... ... ... :o
Let me apply this to 5 other random things.
If you were not strong enough to make a sandwich, you wouldn't do it.
If you were not strong enough to wipe your ass, you wouldn't do it.
If you were not strong enough to get out of bed, you wouldn't do it.
If you were not strong enough to clean your room, you wouldn't do it.
If you were not strong enough to stand up for yourself, you wouldn't do it.
Thus, by your logic, making a sandwich, wiping your ass, getting out of bed, cleaning your room, and standing up for yourself are also EQUALLY about power, if I'm understanding your logic correctly. If not, please elaborate more, because this is what im getting out of it, that exercising of power means something is ABOUT power.
But yes, when you shape the scenario like that, where rape is simply added, is a random occurrence you can do absolutely nothing about... Yeah, it looks like a dumb idea. But thats because you shape it that way.
The scenarios you described have nothing to do with ethics or morality at all. So they are false arguments. I didn't know making a sandwich would offend a person, for example, or going to bed.
Also you didn't ANSWER the question. Nor have you suggested/contributed to game mechanics AT ALL in this thread. You are stating a perfectly valid opinion that has merit. But your argument isn't GOING anywhere. You aren't making any contribution other than saying certain points of view annoy you and that shouldn't stop a thing (rape) being in the game.
If people care so deeply that it should, I put to them - HOW DOES IT WORK?
WHAT is needed? Are there additional things/features needed to make it fleshed out?
Many haven't even touched these in their posts. Nobody has really gone into it.
If this thread continues at this rate, it will never get in - mod or otherwise because the the conversation will never move beyond "It should!" and "It shouldn't!"
But you weren't even talking about morality, you were saying rape is about power because you use power to do it...
....What does power have to do with morality directly? More importantly, what do you think is a general cause of rape? The whole idea of power having anything to do with it, or being "about" power is practically a non sequitur. This is why I don't even understand why people say rape is "about" power...it seems more "about" sexuality to me, specifically the lack of agreement on desires.
As for how it would work, I could imagine a few things. First, gauging of emotions. Sadness, anger, happiness, both with "deep" values, and "shallow" values... someone might be "shallowly" happy over getting high, but be sad real deep down. Sexuality would also be something which could be stimulated slightly, via attractive mates, conversation, nudity, or other things, and sex DRIVE would fluctuate to the amount of stimulation, and stress, and thought history in recent times. Really, I guess it could be paired with a whole update on mood and psychology in general.
Being sexually frustrated could cause a mood hit, but could be temporarily vented with masturbation for some colonists, as well as attempts to romance rising. And with denial, stress would rise.
If stress and sexual frustration rose high enough, and the mental break risk was there, a colonist could attempt to "force" someone, which could have several possible outcomes.
1 : target of affections accepts it without fight.. Equivilant to passions being unbottled, and being reciprocated.. a good, harmless event, which has possitive effects. Not ACTUALLY rape, just a very sudden expression of affection and desire which, thankfully, is accepted.
2 : Target rejects affections, but does not fight...can end with either colonist assaulting acknowledging, if so getting a very small catharsis mood hit to the person doing it, and a small mood hit to the person it was done against...or possibly a mood bonus, based on attraction. If Denied, a larger catharsis hit for the assaulter, but mood hit to the one assaulted, based on attraction there. Branching social hit for everyone involved
3: Target rejects affections, gets violent. Generally will cause the person to stop, a mood hit to both , and a relationship penalty for both. If the assaulter does not back down, a slightly altered social fight ensues, and if the rapist wins, they rape, and have a high catharsis rush, and the victim gets a very intense mood hit, and social hits all around. If the rapist loses, the rapist is beaten down, hurt, and theres a very large social destruction. Rapee gets a mood boost for the victory, but a longterm spike in anger.
I figure also, based on following events, things could be salvaged between the rapist and victim, assuming there was no violence. It could even, potentially start a relationship, OR, end up with the woman very unhappy, and lots of social tension.
You are correct, the psychology would need to be more advanced than a simple good / bad mood, but its still pheasable.
I sure wish Tynan could come in and make a sweeping declaration of "yes" or "no" so I could stop seeing this thread pop up every day.
Quote from: mumblemumble on December 24, 2016, 09:30:25 PM
I can understand that, and that is a very valid point, sexual issues is far more home hitting than other issues. But that is where I think it could make for an amazing game, where punches aren't pulled, and things have impact.
You say this like punches of any sort have intrinsic artistic merit. They don't, it's how they're used. This particualr topic is one that can only be handled well with a great deal of thought and empathy. A procedurally generated scenario has neither. Well constructed mechanics can do a good line in story generation, but they aren't going to provide [sic] hard hitting stories. They're going to be mindless (literally) sexual violence stories. There are already A LOT of those.
Quote from: mumblemumble on December 24, 2016, 09:30:25 PM
Its like how children don't die in most movies / games, particularly not in grisly ways. This is to pull punches, to prevent trauma, but they end up being less spectacular.
Less spectacular? Nah. These things can be done well, again by excellent writers, not by procedural systems. Most violence against children in media? Still gratuitous nonsense. The venn diagram of nasty and clever has a pretty small overlap.
Quote from: mumblemumble on December 24, 2016, 09:30:25 PM
it comes down to one simple question, which we must ask ourselves : Which is more important, amazing stories, or protecting emotions of the feeble?
Referring to those sensitive to sexual violence as the feeble is frankly appalling. Have a little grace, please. Putting that aside, "amazing" stories in any medium dealing with these topics are again only possible for people of rare empathy and subtlety. Would I trust Ursula Le Guinn? Yes. Alan Moore? Probably. A random number generator and any old player? No, it'll degenerate into simulated rape camps.
Quote from: mumblemumble on December 24, 2016, 09:30:25 PM
I just feel I need to spell this out to people who are seemingly immune to logic, and insist rape has been eradicated in ALL OF THE GALAXY.
No-one has said that. Casting those who disagree as "immune to logic" is not a cordial way to hold a discussion. Again, please try to be more respectful.
What other people have said is this: it shouldn't be in the player-controlled part of the game. It clearly exists in the universe, in a couple of backgrounds, where it won't degenerate into something awful for the sake of being awful.
Ignoring the social and emotional ramifications of including something like this in the game, what would it even accomplish if it were included?
A temporary mood boost for one colonist, while all your other non-psychopath colonists receive a mood penalty? Heck, even if it was JUST a mood boost with no drawback, that's not even worth wasting food on, let alone a controversial game update.
Quoteintrinsic art merit
It does , imo. Emotional impact is a big part of art, whatever the emotions may be... ...wasn't this literally the idea with rim-world, a story generator, which made one emotional?
Quoteless of a spectacle
as someone else said, the reason why skyrim is less immersive, is all children are somehow dragon proof.....compare this to fallout 2, where children can die, you can kill them, and many people will HATE YOU for killing children, and the sudden immersion shattering element is gone...as if a super mutant with a minigun runs into a room with kids, the kids are very likely to be shot to death, and no meta game will prevent you from seeing the children splattered as they scream.
So just compare the 2....kids being dragon proof, or kids being slaughtered by a mutant...which is more attention grabbing, and emotionally provoking? Which is more immersive?
For both movies, and games, they hit the best when theres no glaring questions of "wait, why cant I do this"? or "why didnt this happen"?
Which is why not pulling punches is good, because its more BELIEVABLE. Literally nobody found little lamplight from fallout 3 believable in the slightest, but compared to pickpockets from the den in fallout 2, it was very believable a few orphans would pick my pockets to survive, and it put me in quite the conflict. I eventually decided to beat up (but not kill) a few kids so they would stop. It never...quite....felt right, but it was an option, which turned it from a nuisance, to a moral quandary.
See, if I had the option of shooting my way into little lamplight...it would be more interesting, and believable, and many would refuse, simply because slaughtering dozens of children would be pretty grim.
QuoteFeeble
I'm not using feeble as an insult, I'm just being realistic here... Those whom cannot emotionally withstand a CONVERSATION, or abstract representation (abstract being the key point here) about rape, are pretty definitively feeble emotionally, as they are not emotionally STURDY enough to withstand it. Feeble, weak, sensitive, whatever term you wish to use...it applies.
Conversely, someone who can keep their head in the midst of death and gore is an emotionally strong, or resilient person.....quite the opposite.
Also, you should give better credit to what AI storytellers can do, and also, the players involvement...its not a static story, you play a part.
Quotenobody said that
actually, IIRC someone in this very thread suggested rape would be non-existing in the universe due to "cultural evolution" or something.. it actually kinda pissed me off a bit, because its so asinine. A culture can take hundreds of years to evolve, but can devolve in just a few decades.
So in short, all it would take to bring back rape is a bad event, and a few years, and thats being extremely generous, and assuming society could CURE bad apples.
Quote from: mumblemumble on December 25, 2016, 03:56:09 AM
And you saying that everything has already been said is opinion, attempting to turn the narrative towards locking the thread because YOU do not enjoy such topics.
If you have anything else, PLEASE just PM me, I don't want this thread, or other parts of the forums to devolve into flamewars..
I come to General Discussions to read and discuss Rimworld. This is hardly even about the game at this point, it belongs in off-topic. Have the discussion for all I fucking care, just take it to the appropriate forum instead of making BS suggestions so that you can discuss rape in on-topic forums.
And yeah, I'm sure you'd prefer if I'd PM you so nobody has to be exposed to me pointing out the dishonest, manipulative tactics you're using. And saying that I'm trying to get this locked is an opinion, attempting to deflect the actual point being made against you because YOU don't enjoy being challenged.
Someone said that the notion that rape has been eradicated (in this game) is silly. I don't know how many people said that, but i was one of them so i will answer.
I didn't say "in the near future rape will be eradicated in the entire galaxy" as you seem to reply to. I said "it's the future, let's just say there's no more rape and get on with it" (or something like that). Rimworld is supposed to be taking place in the far future. There's genetic modification, there's "glitterworlds" etc. It's fair to say that maybe people have genetically modified everyone at birth (at some point in the future) to not have that trait. Or even if not everyone, they surely could make that trait extremely rare. (I don't know if i'm using the word "trait" correctly here as English is not my native language. I mean a "negative aspect of someone's character" ? Maybe that's wrong too. Anyway, i mean the desire to do such a thing.)
And i'm not even saying this as if that's the most certain thing that will be done in the future. I'm saying it to get over this suggestion. Maybe you're right and it will never be eradicated. But for now, and for this game, let's say that in the far future it *is* eradicated, at least for your colonists. Why is that a bad idea? It's eliminating something that none of us wants in the game, and it does so in a plausible manner, and then we can move to more productive discussions.
@Troll
I say use PM because your posts are highly incendiary and off topic. And I don't want threads suffering because you are derailing. I honestly recommend reading the rules, and if you see me breaking the rules, use the report function. And if you are breaking the rules, quietly correct yourself.
Mods exist for a reason and will resolve any problems
@MAK
This might make sense, except
1 : lore says humans are unaffected by evolutionary pressures, so this is EXTREMELY unlikely
2 : as stated before, rape doesn't "just" come down to someone having evil "in their genes". Its a complex formation of sexual attraction, stress, faultering morality, and other factors. If someone could have the callousness to become a murderer / raider, and had a sex drive, they can be a rapist. To say you can remove the "rapist trait" through genetic engineering 1 implies rape is a behavior which is genetic, and not a human problem in nature, and 2, implies you can completely remove the ability while keeping free will
you need to consider this : If a colonist likes someone else, wants them, and the desire is not reciprocated, the only things preventing rape is 1 : a morality preventing horrible behavior or 2 : fear of punishment
If both of those are removed, rape is extremely likely. And genetic engineering wouldn't cure that, but not cure murder, sadism, and other flaws...its just silly, and borderline trying to rewrite the lore :-\
Quote from: SterilizeAllTrolls on December 25, 2016, 11:45:54 AM
...
Just because a hypothetical game mechanic offends you doesn't mean it's against the rules to discuss.
Quote from: mumblemumble on December 25, 2016, 05:53:38 PM
@MAK
This might make sense, except
1 : lore says humans are unaffected by evolutionary pressures, so this is EXTREMELY unlikely
2 : as stated before, rape doesn't "just" come down to someone having evil "in their genes". Its a complex formation of sexual attraction, stress, faultering morality, and other factors. If someone could have the callousness to become a murderer / raider, and had a sex drive, they can be a rapist. To say you can remove the "rapist trait" through genetic engineering 1 implies rape is a behavior which is genetic, and not a human problem in nature, and 2, implies you can completely remove the ability while keeping free will
you need to consider this : If a colonist likes someone else, wants them, and the desire is not reciprocated, the only things preventing rape is 1 : a morality preventing horrible behavior or 2 : fear of punishment
If both of those are removed, rape is extremely likely. And genetic engineering wouldn't cure that, but not cure murder, sadism, and other flaws...its just silly, and borderline trying to rewrite the lore :-\
I stand corrected! I just wanted to find a simple way to make rape non-canon. But you are right, genetic engineering is indeed not the way. And i obviously don't want to be "borderline trying to rewrite the lore". Anyway the idea was that rape is impossible in this universe, so we don't stay here any longer. And i personally don't even care why is it impossible. I mean you have sci-fi novels or movies stating things that can't be possible but they go with "let's just say it is" and you humour their (im)possibility to enjoy whatever else the movie or novel has to offer.
Anyway, i feel like we have to move forward instead of continuing this. My attempt to make this impossible was indeed a sad one, but if noone can make it impossible, let's just forget anyone even mentioned it and move on.
Quote from: Tammabanana on December 23, 2016, 12:28:22 PM
Quote from: keylocke on December 23, 2016, 01:03:16 AM
... it's not something you actually believe until you see the horror of it. which is why to the social justice warriors, i think they're shooting themselves in the foot whenever they censor things coz it fosters ignorance to the people who are most vulnerable to it...
Complete censorship is not productive, but implementing on-camera rape in this genre of video game turns it into a terrible and desensitizing joke.
If you want to use a video game as a tool to talk about rape, it's not the rape itself you need to be putting on display, it's how to stop it. Creepy pawns getting disliked by non-psychopath pawns on account of their creepiness; all nearby non-psychopaths insulting/starting social fights with the creep when the creep "tries to woo" someone who dislikes them; non-psychopath pawns telling all their buddies to watch out for that creep, and spread the dislike debuff to their friends; any pawn with a rapist/murderer backstory having a permanent "guilty" flag, something like that.
^this.
i think in my previous post i also stated something similar, that the act of rape would earn the perpetrator the ire of the other colonists.
ie: rapists would get a huge negative rating on their social, which makes them more prone to social fights, injuries, and perhaps even resulting to their death.
this would be equal among all sexual orientations like straight male/female or lesbians/gays.
anyone can be a rapist.so there's equal opportunities to rape, get raped, and get ganked by an angry mob coz someone tried to rape someone.
---
also, in previous post i believe i also wrote ways for the player to intervene during rape.
and for this, i'll explain how i think rape could work on rimworld :
-rape is like a mental breakdown (like berserk mode or pyromaniac mode) which occurs when a person is repeatedly rebuffed sexually and is in very low mood.
-once "rape mode" is active, the rapist would physically attack their intended victim to incapacitate them.
-once victim is incapacitated, rape would occur. this allows the rapist to gain positive buff from getting some "lovin", at the expense of giving negative mood/social points on the victim and the other colonists.
-this means that rape mode is the most extreme mental breakdown. it's a trade off between getting a positive mood for one character in exchange for a negative mood for the others.
----
meanwhile, these are the ways to stop rape.
-third parties could help gank the rapist during the rape assault
-the rape victim itself could succeed in ganking the rapist.
-keep the mood up to prevent mental break down.
being able to stop a rape attempt would give positive mood and social buffs for the victim and the other colonists, at the expense of negative mood/social debuffs for the failed rapist.
essentially it's a trade off between the happiness of the rapist vs the happiness of the victim and the rest of the colony.
----
i also stated in one of my earlier post here about creating a new playable "faction" type besides "new arrivals" and tribals".
this new playable faction could be called the "raider" faction. which forces the player to remain hostile against all the other factions including other raiders. however, this allows the players to play as evil as they want.
ie :
-harvesting, killing, raping, torture, etc.. prisoners/visitors/raiders/colonists don't get any negative debuffs. everything is just kill or get killed.
I honestly was more interested in the raider implication, of getting back a colonist whos alive after capture, but shell shocked from rape.
Also, for COLONIST rape, I think its important to point out that not all rape is beat down brawl "fuck or ill slit your throat", levels of abusive rape. Rape is a problem, don't get me wrong, but just like "assault" theres many levels. A shove, a slap, a punch, bashing someones head into concrete, these are all assault, but we can surely agree they aren't EQUAL levels of assault.
I think its an important element to keep in mind, that rape is not ALWAYS that level of insane sadistic. It exists, and its very appropriate for raider scum, but I think in colonies, "forced" but less violent rape would be possible, and infact more common.
Also, on distribution, I feel straight women would be less likely to commit rape on men...I mean, its a factor of 1 : your trying to force someone STRONGER than you, and 2 : Females are slightly less aggressive. Combine this and well, I think its significantly less likely.
Personally, I think it might be interesting if implemented properly, but ultimately, I don't think it'll be worth all the drama and arguments and so on and so forth that may arise.
So, I'm going to ignore the entire first few pages of controversy, and just address the suggestion itself.
Although I do definitely agree that prostitution should be a valid work order (maybe have it grouped in with "entertainer" jobs like dancing and singing {finally, a second artistic job [does sexual relations count as an art form?]}) there should maybe be a trait that makes them either incapable of this job "monogamous". That way, pawns who are sensitive to such things cannot be forced into a job that they do not like, much like other incapable tasks.
Of course, we cannot have nice things, being the people we are, so it will inevitably give way to "pretty but monogamous? to the butchery for you".