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hehe. I personally don't understand why animals can't do incest but humans do. Or was it the other way around?
Seriously, from the animal perspective, it gets harder to get a full livestock. I understand that. I don't like it. Biologically, I see no difference between animals (in general) & hoomans. It should be either wincest for all species or no incest at all. And since this is RimWorld ...

RimWorld is supposed to capture the ugly side of humanity. Incest it is ;)

Quote from: O Negative on December 27, 2016, 05:32:49 PM
RimWorld is supposed to capture the ugly side of humanity. Incest it is ;)

+1

Quote from: Thyme on December 27, 2016, 11:00:38 AM
hehe. I personally don't understand why animals can't do incest but humans do. Or was it the other way around?
Seriously, from the animal perspective, it gets harder to get a full livestock. I understand that. I don't like it. Biologically, I see no difference between animals (in general) & hoomans. It should be either wincest for all species or no incest at all. And since this is RimWorld ...

It used to be humans would animals wouldn't iirc, or maybe neither could...but animals not doing incest lead to genetic "dead ends" where animals would die out after everyone fucked everyone. A generation of kids would die off, as they refused to fuck brothers / sisters.

This was removed because it made raising livestock retardedly hard.

...And I agree rim-world should represent the worst of humanity. Funny, this same line is what gets me hate in that thread suggesting rape as a feature lol

Quote from: mumblemumble on December 29, 2016, 05:12:20 AM
Funny, this same line is what gets me hate in that thread suggesting rape as a feature lol

People hate you for a suggestion that would make the game more interesting? Isn't that the opposite of logic? Yes it would should make people feel bad about themselves, but isn't this what this game is about? A drama simulator simulating traumatic acts?

Could you link the thread in question?

I think all you need is 2 males and 2 females (and lots of time for several generations) to increase your gene pool enough to get rid of incest. RimWorld does track parents and grandparents only, right? so the 3rd generation has no memory of their great grandparents and can breed with your 4 starting animals. Not sure tho, I just buy/tame more animals because it's usually quicker.

I don't think we should have rape as feature. I won't post a full explanation, but it has to do with rape still happening in our culture and all the other things like cannibalism/vivisections not happening. I hope one day we can overcome that as well.

Quote from: Thyme on December 30, 2016, 03:18:41 AM
and all the other things like cannibalism/vivisections not happening

Wait cannibalism doesn't? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_cannibalism#2010.E2.80.93present
It looks like it's still happening to me..

I'm surprised, but the documentation obviously gets better over time. I still consider it a marginal phenomenon, because, according to the UN (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics), 250.000 rapes are reported per year! This stands in no relation to the 28 entries of cannibalism over the last 6 years (including 3 cases of people eating/selling their own meat).

I must ask though, do you not want to include a feature because of this? I know that seeing this happen might bring back memories to some, but other features can also bring back memories that are IMHO worse: (shooting, breaking age guidelines for relationships, starvation, loneliness, human meat eating, fire, everything related to prisoners, etc etc).

Where would you draw the line then? I'm curious.

That was kinda funny  ;D

But I honestly don't think it would contribute for the game. Not even the story part... Even though I can't say "no incest"

It's the other way around, I don't want it included and those figures reassured me in my opinion. I draw the line where it is in the game.

Yeah, cannibalism still happens, but its not talked about... ..remember the dipshit who took bath salts and then ate his "friends" face?

One thing which would be interesting to know, but has hardly any information on it, is how far out generations need to be with incest to prevent adverse effects. I mean, bare with me...if a town is started with say, 20 people, its not going to be many generations before its impossible for family roots to bump into each other.

Because of this, I think with enough distance genetically, the adverse effects of incest in extended family could be avoided. But, there's no information / studies on this sadly. Would be interesting to see a graph on risk by how far separated out it was, but I also can't see a study being done on incest of first gen, second gen, third, forth...ect...and compare the results.

If anyone knows of such a study, let me know.

The House Lannister Habsburg suffered from incest. Look at their paintings, they don't look like that because of the painter. They did that for quite a while and are, well, known for that. Interesting how the word incest does not appear on both the english and german wiki article. Tu felix austria!

My grandparents on my dad's side already had the same last name when they met. It's an uncommon one, but they both came from the same small rural town in Virginia. I don't object to what they did, so I guess I'm cool with cousin-level incest. But maybe that's an effect of the incest. OH NO! I think incest allowed but having some effects (irl in my case: mental illness) would be good.

Quote from: iame6162013 on December 29, 2016, 10:17:05 AM

Quote from: mumblemumble on December 29, 2016, 05:12:20 AM
Funny, this same line is what gets me hate in that thread suggesting rape as a feature lol

People hate you for a suggestion that would make the game more interesting? Isn't that the opposite of logic? Yes it would should make people feel bad about themselves, but isn't this what this game is about? A drama simulator simulating traumatic acts?

Could you link the thread in question?

How many games feature rape actually happening in-game? Rape would bring controversy and would be news. Any publicity is good publicity? Question is what happens in-game when your psychopath has mental break: rape time. How Tynan could integrate that in a tasteful way is beyond my imagination.

Thyme, I getcha, but theres 0 raw data. Obviously incest is not a 1 time thing, destroy the entire gene pool thing, or humanity would be extinct, but I would find it intriguing to see how rates of mutations at different levels (parent/child, brother sister, cousin cousin) Compared to mutations for otherwise normal people, controlling for issues like drug use, diet, ect... I Would love to see just how much damage it really ends up doing, especially since mabor is not a super mutant from it....apologies if you are indeed a super mutant, I am not a prejudice against them. :D (I'm just joking around, of course).

I'm mainly interested because, while I always hear stories, I've never seen scientific evidence...and anecdotal evidence should be taken with a grain of salt.

Quote from: mumblemumble on January 03, 2017, 04:19:38 AM
Thyme, I getcha, but theres 0 raw data. Obviously incest is not a 1 time thing, destroy the entire gene pool thing, or humanity would be extinct, but I would find it intriguing to see how rates of mutations at different levels (parent/child, brother sister, cousin cousin) Compared to mutations for otherwise normal people, controlling for issues like drug use, diet, ect... I Would love to see just how much damage it really ends up doing, especially since mabor is not a super mutant from it....apologies if you are indeed a super mutant, I am not a prejudice against them. :D (I'm just joking around, of course).

I'm mainly interested because, while I always hear stories, I've never seen scientific evidence...and anecdotal evidence should be taken with a grain of salt.

Many of my problems are genetic, maybe they are the result of inbreeding. My super strength and hunger for human flesh are probably from the radiation, not the minor inbreeding. I have never seen unbiased, conclusive evidence that inbreeding results in anything out of the ordinary! I wanted to try some tests of my own, but little sis wasn't down :P Seriously though, RW is a science-fiction game! We don't need proof of anything; widely accepted medical theory is good enough for us. Incest doesn't seem out of place in RW to me. However, Tynan must still ask himself: will it really improve the game in his opinion and how would consumers respond?

I think mumble² was interesed in this data for himself.

Did you look for incest in dog breeding? Many of those super fancy dog breeds have health issues. Most oftenly overbreeding is named as reason, but some breeds obvioulsy had a too small gene pool when the breed was created.

I've seen data on first gen distance (siblings) but no further. I just want to see how far out before its somewhat "safe." Obviously eventually its safe, but I have no clue how far out that is.

I've seen LOTS of jokes and stories of it, but very few evidential cases on specifically distant relations.

Also, I dont care how it applies to rimworld persay, I just love asking questions.

Ya, your signature told me that as well ;)

I'm currently reading "What if?" from Randall Munroe. One of the questions in the book is about "What happens when a woman gets impregnated from sperm built from her own DNA?". Yes, this book as a bit weird (and hilarious), but I might as well got the translation messed up. The answer is, you basically make a clone of that woman. As the author moves on to explain why that is bad, he introduces something he calls incest-koefficient. The clone has 1, a child from non-related parents has 0, everything else is inbetween. You get 0.25 when two siblings breed, which is about as much as Karl II. had (0.254), the last one of the spanish Habsburger. If you're interested in the source Munroe used for that, I can pm it to you. It's just that I'm to lazy to type them in, 4/5 of them are links ^^

*I'm sorry if my translations are wrong or weird, would've read it in english, but it was a christmas present. A rather good one, can recommend ;)

Quote from: mumblemumble on January 05, 2017, 01:05:52 PM
I've seen data on first gen distance (siblings) but no further. I just want to see how far out before its somewhat "safe." Obviously eventually its safe, but I have no clue how far out that is.

I've seen LOTS of jokes and stories of it, but very few evidential cases on specifically distant relations.

Also, I dont care how it applies to rimworld persay, I just love asking questions.

I swear the questions are more fun than the answers sometimes~


So, to my understanding, the issue with inbreeding isn't that it actually creates genetic disorders, but rather that it doesn't stop them from happening. An ambiguously high percentage of people actually have genes that code for genetic disorders, but genetic disorders are very frequently recessive. As long as the matching pair to that particular gene doesn't also encode for a genetic disorder, the body will use the better gene instead.

People who have DNA for a genetic disorder but don't experience the symptoms are known as "carriers". They have a 1/2 chance of passing the faulty gene to offspring, but are otherwise fine. In fact, a carrier can have children with another carrier and, so long as they aren't carriers for the same disorder, there will generally never be any problems.

This is basically why we don't all die of genetic disorders, because as far as I know faulty genes are believed to be pretty common. Most people probably have something or other. However, because there are so many different genetic disorders, it's rare for two carriers of the same disorder to have kids, and even then there's only a 1/4 chance per kid that both parents will pass on the disorder. It happens, obviously, but it's no surprise it's rare.

At which point we get to the actual crux of the problem with inbreeding. The "incest coefficient" measures what percentage of the two people's DNA will be the same. If one of the two people is a carrier, then the incest coefficient effectively measures the odds that the other person will be a carrier of the same disorder. Of course, two carriers still only have a 1/4 chance of a genetic disorder per child, but that still puts siblings where one has a faulty gene at a 1 in 16 risk of having a child with a genetic disorder, which is hard to swallow.

The only good news is that's the chance for sibling couples where one has a genetic disorder. That rate goes down based on what percentage of the population actually has a genetic disorder. If only half the population has genetic disorders, then sibling couples on average "only" have a 1 in 32 chance. But as far as I know, there's currently no hard data on how many people have faulty genes, so we can only guess at what the actual rates are.


So in short, inbreeding is a bad idea because genetics are fickle. It doesn't damage DNA, cause horrible mutations, or leave any permanent stain on the gene pool, it just puts too many faulty genes in the same place for that one person's body to handle. And as far as dogs go, the point of selective breeding is to maximize their effectiveness at a specific task, so it's to be expected that other areas would suffer.

Of course, this is a completely different question from whether incest is bad. Assuming the incestuous couple refrains from having children, then they're basically in the same position as a gay couple. In love, having sex, not capable of having kids. There are a ton of social, political, and psychological arguments for why incest could be a bad idea, but biological science gives it the okay.

I don't get your last paragraph (sex always has the risk of pregnancy), especially:

Quotebiological science gives it the okay

The German language has no word for inbreeding, we use "Inzucht" for incest and inbreeding. Thanks for clarifying, that's very interesting from the standpoint of language ;)

Quote from: Thyme on January 06, 2017, 01:51:19 AM
(sex always has the risk of pregnancy)

Um, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_control) not (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infertility) really~? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality)

Quote from: Caraise Link on January 06, 2017, 10:45:17 AM

Quote from: Thyme on January 06, 2017, 01:51:19 AM
(sex always has the risk of pregnancy)

Um, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_control) not (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infertility) really~? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality)

LoL you forgot alternate lovin' holes and bestiality. Caraise Link you have been so informative. I enjoyed it.

Quote from: mabor0shi on January 06, 2017, 10:17:34 PM

Quote from: Caraise Link on January 06, 2017, 10:45:17 AM

Quote from: Thyme on January 06, 2017, 01:51:19 AM
(sex always has the risk of pregnancy)

Um, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_control) not (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infertility) really~? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality)

LoL you forgot alternate lovin' holes and bestiality. Caraise Link you have been so informative. I enjoyed it.

Haha, excellent. Hearing that I made someone have fun learning a thing always makes my day. ^_^

The only birth control that works 100% requires you to cut off your balls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasectomy). Bestiality is not really a thing, infertility and homosexuality are not widespread. I'll take a wild guess and say alternative lovin' holes are not used consistently.
My statement stays true.

*I can generalise that much because I'm a physics student. Everthing below 10% is not significant and thus' can be ignored without changing the outcome. Yes, we really do that.

edit: This post is not to be taken too seriously. Clarification (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=28701.msg295454#msg295454) is to be found in my next post.

@Caraise : Well, even SIBLINGS have very small changes to genetics from their parents, and cousins even more and THIS is my point. The risk gets exponentially lower the more distant.

But, theres no data on this, just stories.

@Caraise 2:
Birth control is not 100% efficient at all. condoms, depo shot, implant, the pill, even when all combined, don't have a full success rate, even with dilligent use, AND, also have nasty health effects for most.

Infertility is a disability of the body, and not a "cure".  plus most people are not infertile.

Homosexuality I wouldn't classify under sex, but rather, sodomy. I would classify bestiality as the same. Not to mention, not everyone is gay or fucks animals, and these BOTH have SEVERE health effects often. (well, I've seen little info on bestiality, so idk really.. but chemicals in animals fluids might indeed be hazardous, depending on the animal.)

Mumble, I don't like where you're steering this discussion, or the fact that you're steering it at all.  You're not technically breaking any rules (as far as I can tell), but you're flirting with the line.  Again.  Consider this your warning.

Quote from: Thyme on January 07, 2017, 06:12:20 AM
The only birth control that works 100% requires you to cut off your balls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasectomy). Bestiality is not really a thing, infertility and homosexuality are not widespread. I'll take a wild guess and say alternative lovin' holes are not used consistently.
My statement stays true.

*I can generalise that much because I'm a physics student. Everthing below 10% is not significant and thus' can be ignored without changing the outcome. Yes, we really do that.

As far as that goes, IUDs have a failure rate of 0.01%. (https://www.optionsforsexualhealth.org/birth-control-pregnancy/birth-control-options/effectiveness) If 1/10 is the cut-off point, then (1/10) ^ 3 seems like it ought to be pretty negligible. So we can consider IUDs to have a perfect success rate, with very little difference between their hypothetical effectiveness and their actual effectiveness. Hence, yes, sex does not necessarily carry a risk of pregnancy.

Also, as an infertile lesbian, thanks for telling me I'm not statistically significant enough to be relevant to the conversation! Science has more disciplines than physics because physics isn't effective in all situations. Honestly, even if I were using physics to construct a bridge or something, a 9% chance of it falling over isn't something I would just write off.

You said

Quote from: Caraise Link on January 07, 2017, 05:03:32 PM

Quote from: Thyme on January 07, 2017, 06:12:20 AM
The only birth control that works 100% requires you to cut off your balls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasectomy). Bestiality is not really a thing, infertility and homosexuality are not widespread. I'll take a wild guess and say alternative lovin' holes are not used consistently.
My statement stays true.

*I can generalise that much because I'm a physics student. Everthing below 10% is not significant and thus' can be ignored without changing the outcome. Yes, we really do that.

As far as that goes, IUDs have a failure rate of 0.01%. (https://www.optionsforsexualhealth.org/birth-control-pregnancy/birth-control-options/effectiveness) If 1/10 is the cut-off point, then (1/10) ^ 3 seems like it ought to be pretty negligible. So we can consider IUDs to have a perfect success rate, with very little difference between their hypothetical effectiveness and their actual effectiveness. Hence, yes, sex does not necessarily carry a risk of pregnancy.

Also, as an infertile lesbian, thanks for telling me I'm not statistically significant enough to be relevant to the conversation! Science has more disciplines than physics because physics isn't effective in all situations. Honestly, even if I were using physics to construct a bridge or something, a 9% chance of it falling over isn't something I would just write off.

We have a winner! :D
Please, keep the language barrier in mind here, though. Thyme is German, hence referring to the "spread" of homosexuality might not have the same negative connotations native English speakers give it, i.e. makes it sound like it's a communicable disease or a plague. And who knows where the rest of us are from?
Many of these kind of arguments come down to misunderstandings stemming from the limitations of text-only communication & semantics. Remember that we are all here because we all like RimWorld, so we have a common bond! So be careful not to sound insulting; some people are sensitive and/or have a victim mentality that makes them always try to be offended.
Bottom Line:I think everyone can agree, incest is all in good fun (provided all parties involved are consenting adults) until someone gets pregnant.

Quote from: mabor0shi on January 07, 2017, 07:04:53 PM
Please, keep the language barrier in mind here, though. Thyme is German, hence referring to the "spread" of homosexuality might not have the same negative connotations native English speakers give it, i.e. makes it sound like it's a communicable disease or a plague. And who knows where the rest of us are from?

Ah, okay. I keep running into people that are far enough into the early stages of fluency that I can't tell English isn't their first language, which makes me assume they understand English words' connotations better. It makes it really hard to differentiate between a non-native speaker carefully articulating words that don't mean what they think, or a native speaker throwing words around without a care. Haven't figured out a good way to differentiate between the two yet.

Quote from: mabor0shi on January 07, 2017, 07:04:53 PM
Bottom Line:I think everyone can agree, incest is all in good fun (provided all parties involved are consenting adults) until someone gets pregnant.

I hope so, because I'll happily agree to that~

I'm actually Austrian. But yes, no native and I'm sorry if I hurt anybody with a wrong use of widespread. I looked it up (https://dict.leo.org/englisch-deutsch/widespread) and it seemed to be a neutral word to me.

The 10% rule is used to determine if input parameters* can be ignored without changing the output**. This needs verification in each case, but as rule of thumb, 10% usually works out.
*e.g. amount of water used in the concrete, amount of iron built in, ...
**stability of the bridge, like, how much stress it can take without breaking. That would be, for example, the number of vehicles using the bridge simultaneously.

I considered the sparring-match to be humorous and not so serious. To clarify the statistic significance of infertile lesbians: I used my rule of thumb to get rid (sounds harsh for me, but dispose, dispatch, ditch are not better either. Can somebody suggest a better word?) of all input variables that are beyond my control, leaving me with contraceptive methods only. None of them, except vasectomy, which is irreversible and thus doesn't really count, have a 100% success rate. I don't use my rule of thumb here, because getting pregnant greatly changes your life.
tl;dr I never intended to offend anyone, hope you're good.

Quote from: Thyme on January 08, 2017, 05:25:01 AM
tl;dr I never intended to offend anyone, hope you're good.

It's fiiiiine~

Quote from: Thyme on January 08, 2017, 05:25:01 AM
I'm actually Austrian. But yes, no native and I'm sorry if I hurt anybody with a wrong use of widespread. I looked it up (https://dict.leo.org/englisch-deutsch/widespread) and it seemed to be a neutral word to me.

It's a neutral word, it just comes off of "spread", which means to expand out from a smaller area. On an instinctual level, saying "homosexuality is not widespread" paints it as a more viral expansion, rather than an uncommon preexisting trait.

Though for me, I also just thought the "cut your balls off" line was amazingly crass!

Quote from: Thyme on January 08, 2017, 05:25:01 AM
get rid (sounds harsh for me, but dispose, dispatch, ditch are not better either. Can somebody suggest a better word?)

"Omit (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/omit?s=t)"~

Quote from: Thyme on January 08, 2017, 05:25:01 AM
[snip] leaving me with contraceptive methods only. None of them, except vasectomy, which is irreversible and thus doesn't really count, have a 100% success rate. I don't use my rule of thumb here, because getting pregnant greatly changes your life.

Sure, but in doing so you're also dismissing a significant minority of people for whom pregnancy isn't a concern. I don't think it's fair to judge their decisions based on the condition of the majority. Plus, given that basic activities like driving to work or taking a bath can sometimes kill you, a mere 99.9% chance of everything being fine is honestly not that bad~

Also, remember that abortion (while often miserable) is an option for many pro-choice people living in developed countries. Taking pregnancy as an absolute lose condition was a bit of a misstep to start with, I think.

Thanks for the suggestion, it's much better. Now, back to incest? :D

Oh, now this is interesting. Are we entirely sure the game doesn't have colonist incest already? I'd been aware that the game acknowledged incest if a mod made it happen*, but I wasn't sure what system prevented it from happening, so I went digging around in the code.

As far as I can see, the only place incest changes pawns' chance of confessing/accepting is based on the "attraction factor" of the relationship. I expected to look at the def and find that it was 0, but nope, it's actually 3% for direct family relations. Which is to say that it effectively multiplies the odds of two directly related pawns getting together by (3%) ^ 2 = 0.09%, making it practically impossible, but not actually impossible. Just very unlikely.

I'm going to have to mod the attraction factors for siblings through the roof to see if it results in incest everywhere...

*: My current colony is kinda split down the middle because half of them are prejudiced against the married sister couple I made with Prepare Carefully...

Not sure if my memory tricks me here, but I think Tynan allowed incest for humans and forbid it for animals with the A15 release.

Quote from: Thyme on January 09, 2017, 04:41:38 PM
Not sure if my memory tricks me here, but I think Tynan allowed incest for humans and forbid it for animals with the A15 release.

Oh, weird decision. I would've thought human incest would've been the more contentious element here. Is he afraid of animal rights activists or something~?

I think that was to make breeding a bit more difficult. Getting your lifestock to the desired amount could've been too easy.

Quote from: Caraise Link on January 09, 2017, 04:52:45 PM

Quote from: Thyme on January 09, 2017, 04:41:38 PM
Not sure if my memory tricks me here, but I think Tynan allowed incest for humans and forbid it for animals with the A15 release.

Oh, weird decision. I would've thought human incest would've been the more contentious element here. Is he afraid of animal rights activists or something~?

I think Thyme is right about that and that the decision was for game balancing reasons. And Thyme, sorry about calling you German. When you said German was your 1st language, I assumed you were German. Like if someone said French, I would not guess they are Belgian. It's the American way: we don't care much about the outside world :P I learned much more about Austria from Civilization games than from school.
In reality, animals do avoid incest. I think.

Quote from: mabor0shi on January 12, 2017, 08:39:58 PM
I think Thyme is right about that and that the decision was for game balancing reasons.

On the topic of emotions not always reading through text very well: I am a goofball with a penchant for silly humor~

Quote from: mabor0shi on January 12, 2017, 08:39:58 PM
In reality, animals do avoid incest. I think.

Looks like, yeah. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sexual_behaviour#Inbreeding_avoidance) Though the fact that they have data on inbred wildlife suggests that their anti-inbreeding systems aren't foolproof even under normal circumstances. It's necessarily implied that they will inbreed for lack of a better option.

That said, different species are going to handle the situation differently based on their preexisting anti-inbreeding systems. One might hold out and jump the fence first time they see a possible mate in the wild, others might wait a while and then mate with the least close relative, etc. Making this accurate would really require an entire animal incest system, so I really can see why Tynan's not bothering with it right now~

An animal incest tracking system won't pay off the coding time with added game value. I don't mind the animal incest embargo too much, because it's usually quicker to just tame more of the wildlife (and no gestation period).

@mabor0shi: So you do know that calling us Austrians Germans is an insult lmao. The thing is, I can't say I speak Austrian, most people would not understand. German is as much different from Austrian (and Bavarian) than American English and British English though.