Vanilla Enhanced - Combat Overhaul. VE-CO
(http://i.imgur.com/BB5Puae.png) (http://i.imgur.com/BB5Puae.png) (http://i.imgur.com/tv8y01a.png) (http://i.imgur.com/tv8y01a.png)
Description:VE-CO try to reduce frustratingness of combat by increasing survival rate of colonists while decreasing ever tedious permanent injury.
Although goal of this mod isn't realism, realistically a person wouldn't fight until their torso is completely destroyed, bleeding out is most common cause of death and I think these mods archived realism fairly well.
In a way this is basically mini-Combat Realism mod except these mods doesn't touch weapons and should be compatible with almost everything.
All four are separated independent mods and you can play as you like.
Features:Blood and Pain 300%/200%/Vanilla:- Injuries cause bleeding + 200%/100%/0%(No change) more severe. Total 300%/200%/100%(Vanilla).
- Injuries cause twice more pain and thrice for blunt wounds. (ex, bruises).
- Blood loss causes pain and more severe conscious lose.
- Punctured organs now cause 200%/100%/0%(No change) more severe bleeding. (In vanilla, punctured kidney, lungs and liver etc doesn't cause additional blood loss, only heart and neck does.)
- Less bleeding and vanilla bleeding versions are also available. I recommend 200% or vanilla version as A17 made bleed recover slower and 300% version gets quite hardcore.
Click to see large image.(http://i.imgur.com/vBSGed0.png) (http://i.imgur.com/vBSGed0.png)
Better Body Damage Distribution :- Hit chance(coverage) of the torso has been increased.
- Legs and arms are less likely hit and shoulders are more likely hit.
- Shoulders are now considered torso by armor and protected by bullet vest.
- Attacks that hit body are more likely puncture organs and bones.
- Coverage of eyes, hands, feet, fingers and toes has been significantly decreased.
(http://i.imgur.com/o7Gph7U.png) (http://i.imgur.com/o7Gph7U.png)
Tougher Body :- Hit point of most body parts has been increased by 30% to 50% exception to head and organs.
- Torso 40 to 60. Arms and Legs 30 to 40. Hands and feet 20 to 30. Bones(Radius, pelvis, femur and tibia.) 25 to 35.
Tougher Animals :- Hit point of most body parts of animals has been increased except head and organs.
- Body 40 to 70. Legs 30 to 50. Paws and hoofs 10 to 40. Further modified by health scale.
- Healthscale, Bodysize and Drawsize of Wolves and Wargs increased.
- Insects does not benefit from changes above.
(http://i.imgur.com/eXPDnzn.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/eXPDnzn.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/ruyGnd6.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/ruyGnd6.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/ni2Z2pT.png) (http://i.imgur.com/ni2Z2pT.png)
Feature Overview :- Colonists are more likely survive and less likely lose body parts, but more likely dies from blood loss if not treated quick enough. Most dies within 2 to 4 hours depend on injuries(3 to 8 hours with 200%).
- Aggressive tactic is more encouraged as dragged out fight become more and more dangerous as your colonists will bleed out to death while you will less likely capture prisoners.
- Attacks that hit body are more likely puncture and deal additional damage to organs and bones, cause more pain and therefore less likely dies, but cause more bleeding.
- As bleeding and pain are caused by the damage an injury dealt, having armor such as bullet vest are incredibly important.
- Battles are shorter and more decisive. Pawns are no longer bullet sponges that can soak up dozens of bullets before goes down.
- Melee is more viable as the risk of permanent injury is lower and raiders go down quicker, thus take less hit. Also, Personal Shield is relatively stronger, or rather everyone(except mechs) are weaker.
- Raiders are more likely incapped if you can capture them before they bleed out.
- Relatively, mechanoids are stronger as they don't feel pain or bleed. Tribes, insects, and manhunter packs are somewhat weaker, although they are still deadly if you let them engage in close range without the melee weapons.
- Hunts are shorter as most things go down with 2 to 5 bursts, depend on the gun.
- If you have full bionic colonist or any mod that allows you to craft mechs they make incredible fighters as they don't bleed nor feel pain.
- Go juice makes extremely deadly soldiers, but beware it does not save them from death, only pain.
- If you want the challenge start with the scenario that spawns raiders with high on go-juice in the Forced health condition. Even 30% of drugged raiders will make the game extremely difficult.
- Trained animals are more useful as they are less likely die as well. Animals trained to rescue will prove to be very valuable(Though honestly, I found animals AI doesn't rescue well, and rather useless.). Wolves are bigger.
Comparison :
(http://i.imgur.com/LCrq5e5.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/LCrq5e5.jpg)
Vanilla : Pawns are basically bullet sponges and take dozens of shot to down. Permanent injury is far too common. Bleeding is pretty much none existence.
Download:Load order : Load these mods last.
Please download only one Blood and pain, either 300%/200%/Vanilla bleeding version.
Blood and Pain 300% (https://github.com/AristocatHAHA/VE-CO---Blood-and-Pain/releases/download/1.03/VE-CO.Blood.and.Pain.300.rar) v1.03
Blood and Pain 200% (https://github.com/AristocatHAHA/VE-CO---Blood-and-Pain-Easy/releases/download/1.03/VE-CO.Blood.and.Pain.200.rar) v1.03
Blood and Pain Vanilla bleeding (https://github.com/AristocatHAHA/VE-CO---Blood-and-Pain-Vanilla-bleeding/releases/download/1.03/VE-CO.Blood.and.Pain.Vanilla.bleeding.rar) v1.03
Download only one BBDD, either EPOE or None EPOE version.
Better Body Damage Distribution (https://github.com/AristocatHAHA/VE-CO---Better-Body-Damage-Distribution/releases/download/1.01/VE-CO.Better.Body.Damage.Distribution.rar) v1.01
Better Body Damage Distribution EPOE Compatible (https://github.com/AristocatHAHA/VE-CO---Better-Body-Damage-Distribution/releases/download/1.01/VE-CO.Better.Body.Damage.Distribution.EPOE.rar) v1.01
Tougher Body (https://github.com/AristocatHAHA/VE-CO---Tougher-Body/releases/download/1.03/VE-CO.Tougher.Body.rar) v1.01
Tougher Animals (https://github.com/AristocatHAHA/VE-CO---Tougher-Animals/releases/download/1.0/VE-CO.Tougher.Animals.1.0.rar) v1.0 Not updated yet.
Github (https://github.com/AristocatHAHA?tab=repositories)
Known issues:Please report any bugs, oddities or suggestions.
Incompatibilities:It should be save compatible and can be removed from save.
Please report any incompatibilities.
LICENSE :You can do whatever you want with mods as long as you credit the original author.
Change log :
Updated to A17.
Chance to hit bones i.e. pelvis has been increased.
Blood and Pain 1.02
Fixed : Blood loss no longer kills pawn with conscious loss debuff i.e. diseases.
Decreased blood loss rate of missing body part a bit.
Blood and Pain 1.01
Reverted go-juice
Why did you nerf go-juice to 80%? Its too useless with 20% pain reduction. In vanilla it multiplies pain by 10%, effectively reducing it by 90% and making an armored terminator out of a meat sack. In your version - by x80%, reducing it by 20%. Who needs that with 10% addiction rate?
Otherwise kinda interesting overhaul, will try it out, to see which I like more)
Quote from: Madman666 on February 25, 2017, 04:34:22 AM
Why did you nerf go-juice to 80%? Its too useless with 20% pain reduction. In vanilla it multiplies pain by 10%, effectively reducing it by 90% and making an armored terminator out of a meat sack. In your version - by x80%, reducing it by 20%. Who needs that with 10% addiction rate?
Otherwise kinda interesting overhaul, will try it out, to see which I like more)
I think you get it opposite; it's buffed. Note 5th picture.
She's bleeding from every single body parts, yet just punched a power armored colonist down. Although She died right after the picture, from destroyed torso.
Quote from: Aristocat on February 25, 2017, 04:41:29 AM
I think you get it opposite; it's buffed. Note 5th picture.
She's bleeding from every single body parts, yet just punched a power armored colonist down. Although She died right after the picture, from destroyed torso.
Ehm, then you might want to word it differently in description. Because vanilla go-juice doesn't reduce pain by 10%. It multiplies pain by 0.1 (same 10%) lowering it by 90%. If in your version it reduces pain by 80% - that's a nerf. Not as big as it sounds like on the first look though.
Also 2-3.5 hours till death on the average? Wow. I foresee lots of whining, some people can't even save prisoners that have like 6-10 hours, because there is just so much stuff happening with raids.
Quote from: Madman666 on February 25, 2017, 04:50:25 AM
Ehm, then you might want to word it differently in description. Because vanilla go-juice doesn't reduce pain by 10%. It multiplies pain by 0.1 (same 10%) lowering it by 90%. If in your version it reduces pain by 80% - that's a nerf. Not as big as it sounds like on the first look though.
Also 2-3.5 hours till death on the average? Wow. I foresee lots of whining, some people can't even save prisoners that have like 6-10 hours, because there is just so much stuff happening with raids.
I think vanilla go juice reduce pain by only 10%, at least it looks like that in code.
4 hours death encourages aggressive tactics, either that or use mace since it doesn't cause the bleed, mace is bit op now, though.
Quote from: Aristocat on February 25, 2017, 04:55:02 AM
Quote from: Madman666 on February 25, 2017, 04:50:25 AM
Ehm, then you might want to word it differently in description. Because vanilla go-juice doesn't reduce pain by 10%. It multiplies pain by 0.1 (same 10%) lowering it by 90%. If in your version it reduces pain by 80% - that's a nerf. Not as big as it sounds like on the first look though.
Also 2-3.5 hours till death on the average? Wow. I foresee lots of whining, some people can't even save prisoners that have like 6-10 hours, because there is just so much stuff happening with raids.
I think vanilla go juice reduce pain by only 10%, at least it looks like that in code.
4 hours death encourages aggressive tactics, either that or use mace since it doesn't cause the bleed, mace is bit op now, though.
If you seen how go-juice works - you'll know you're wrong - when a pawn is on go-juice it receives only 10% of pain of his injuries. It basically can't go down at all untill someone shots off its leg or destroys critical organs like heart, brain or liver. And if its also armored - it becomes a nightmare to take down. Early game those pirates with helmets and armor vests on go-juice are very high threat.
The code says <painFactor>0.1</painFactor>. That obviously means pain is set to 0.1 of its original value. Thats 90% reduction. If you don't believe me - use dev mode, make a pawn injured and use go-juice. You'll see how pain factor changes live.
And as for bleed I am not talking about prisoners really, though they will become a luxury as you'll need to have like 2-3 docs on stand by to not lose anyone from your own town, not talking about trying to save someone from raiders. 4 hours is way too harsh. Also a question, since your mod increases bodypart HP will it work with EPOE for example?
Quote from: Madman666 on February 25, 2017, 05:02:35 AM
If you seen how go-juice works - you'll know you're wrong - when a pawn is on go-juice it receives only 10% of pain of his injuries. It basically can't go down at all untill someone shots off its leg or destroys critical organs like heart, brain or liver. And if its also armored - it becomes a nightmare to take down. Early game those pirates with helmets and armor vests on go-juice are very high threat.
The code says <painFactor>0.1</painFactor>. That obviously means pain is set to 0.1 of its original value. Thats 90% reduction. If you don't believe me - use dev mode, make a pawn injured and use go-juice. You'll see how pain factor changes live.
It appears you're right, but then again as the screenshot shows it's enough to make a pawn total berserker. I'll buff it back though in next update.
Quote
And as for bleed I am not talking about prisoners really, though they will become a luxury as you'll need to have like 2-3 docs on stand by to not lose anyone from your own town, not talking about trying to save someone from raiders. 4 hours is way too harsh.
Which encourages dynamic tactics. If your colonist is downed immediately rescue them and retreat if you're too much outnumbered, either that or buy and train animals to rescue.
Also, the faster the pawn is downed the less overall wound it receive, which means quicker treatment.
With my play testing it didn't felt 1/6 of a day is too harsh, rather 10 hours in vanilla was ridiculous because raiders sometimes just "got better" and they just woke up and leave if you don't capture them.
As for EPOE I think incompatibility is rather harmless; ribs will show as rib instead rib 1,2 etc.
Quote from: Aristocat on February 25, 2017, 05:20:50 AM
Which encourages dynamic tactics. If your colonist is downed immediately rescue them and retreat if you're too much outnumbered, either that or buy and train animals to rescue.
Also, the faster the pawn is downed the less overall wound it receive, which means quicker treatment.
With my play testing it didn't felt 1/6 of a day is too harsh, rather 10 hours in vanilla was ridiculous because raiders sometimes just "got better" and they just woke up and leave if you don't capture them.
As for EPOE I think incompatibility is rather harmless; ribs will show as rib instead rib 1,2 etc.
While I agree, that a pawn punched full of holes shouldn't lie there for 10 hours straight (its hilarious really), 4 hours is more logical, but also... well just its too harsh. The compromise would be around 5-7 hours at least. You know we are always outnumbered in this game, right? And with pain bringin us down faster - it plays to advantage for outnumbering force more than to our side. I can already see what I'll do playing with 4 hour threat - I will turtle like hell, preventing any of my pawn's precious liquids draining out at all. When a pawn has like 1.4-2 hours to die... Well I usually say screw it - I won't be able to carry it to bed anyway. So I think it'll promote turtling even more, on the contrary to your main goal of making people fight more aggressively. Just too many enemies and too easy to bleed out.
The main problem with EPOE is that it adds more hard bionics with increased hp on parts. And your new hp for parts pretty much evens it out to an extent - there won't be any hp upgrade, when you install bionic arm for example. Aside from non bleeding of course. Its fine if it works nicely otherwise, I think it calls for a part hp patch for EPOE though to balance it out.
This looks like an interesting mod, but the fact that people will typically die in the ballpark of 4 hours - which is somewhat more realistic, but from a gameplay perspective as others mentioned; the fact it's a tad on the fast side - is somewhat offputting.
Another question that comes to mind is "what about animals?": although people have been buffed, animals haven't, so they'll go down quicker than ever. This is mainly because animals like thrumbos are going to go down in a pinch, and thrumbos are supposed to be very difficult to take down, which'll make thrumbo killing feel less rewarding overall. I'd suggest bumping the health scale for each animal by 1.5x to fit in line with a person's buff overall.
That leads onto another question: "What about if I'm running other mods which add new races to the game?"
This is more trivial than anything as one could just get the manual installation versions of these sorts of mods as opposed to workshop if that's the option, and just tweak HealthScale on there, as Workshop version will overwrite those changes once the item gets updated.
But then again, this is promoted as 'vanilla friendly', suggesting it may not be optimal to use with mods that introduce new races, although it's an easy fix (just like tweaking the A Dog Said EPOE Patch to work with EPOE 2.0)
Quote from: Madman666 on February 25, 2017, 05:33:53 AM
While I agree, that a pawn punched full of holes shouldn't lie there for 10 hours straight (its hilarious really), 4 hours is more logical, but also... well just its too harsh. The compromise would be around 5-7 hours at least. You know we are always outnumbered in this game, right? And with pain bringin us down faster - it plays to advantage for outnumbering force more than to our side. I can already see what I'll do playing with 4 hour threat - I will turtle like hell, preventing any of my pawn's precious liquids draining out at all. When a pawn has like 1.4-2 hours to die... Well I usually say screw it - I won't be able to carry it to bed anyway. So I think it'll promote turtling even more, on the contrary to your main goal of making people fight more aggressively. Just too many enemies and too easy to bleed out.
The main problem with EPOE is that it adds more hard bionics with increased hp on parts. And your new hp for parts pretty much evens it out to an extent - there won't be any hp upgrade, when you install bionic arm for example. Aside from non bleeding of course. Its fine if it works nicely otherwise, I think it calls for a part hp patch for EPOE though to balance it out.
I actually found this mod easy, or rather forgiving. In vanilla colonists dies like flies. With this mod and extreme difficulty I never had single colonist dies unless I abandoned them, or caught an infection. I still used save scum, however. Colony wipe-out is most common lose scenario with this mod, as although they are downed and survived that doesn't mean raiders won't capture them.
Without bleeding, I afraid game would be rather cakewalk.
Quote from: XeoNovaDan on February 25, 2017, 06:12:25 AM
This looks like an interesting mod, but the fact that people will typically die in the ballpark of 4 hours - which is somewhat more realistic, but from a gameplay perspective as others mentioned; the fact it's a tad on the fast side - is somewhat offputting.
Another question that comes to mind is "what about animals?": although people have been buffed, animals haven't, so they'll go down quicker than ever. This is mainly because animals like thrumbos are going to go down in a pinch, and thrumbos are supposed to be very difficult to take down, which'll make thrumbo killing feel less rewarding overall. I'd suggest bumping the health scale for each animal by 1.5x to fit in line with a person's buff overall.
People hasn't really buffed(other than ridiculously weak limbs.), everything downs twice faster including people. And as for thrumbo your colonist will also downed twice faster by thrumbo if you let it attack, so I think the difficulty would remain same, unless you cheese it to death and never get attacked.
I think it's better this way since it means they'll be less likely dies and just downed if they are colonist's side.
Quote from: Aristocat on February 25, 2017, 06:17:52 AM
I actually found this mod easy, or rather forgiving. In vanilla colonists dies like flies. With this mod and extreme difficulty I never had single colonist dies unless I abandoned them, or caught an infection. I still used save scum, however. Colony wipe-out is most common lose scenario with this mod, as although they are downed and survived that doesn't mean raiders won't capture them.
Without bleeding, I afraid game would be rather cakewalk.
People hasn't really buffed, everything downs twice faster including people. And as for thrumbo your colonist will also downed twice faster by thrumbo if you let it attack, so I think the difficulty would remain same, unless you cheese it to death and never get attacked.
I think it's better this way since it means they'll be less likely dies and just downed if they are colonist's side.
Wow, quite strange experience really. My colonists mostly only die to unlucky sniper or charge lance shot that landed right (heart, liver, brain, yep). Otherwise they always survive badly crippled, but alive and mostly usable for work even. Prisoners however die from bleeding quie often for me because while I tend to my own people too much time passes. With a pawn bleeding in literally two hours with only 2 heavy wounds I'd say I'll probably never get any prisoners at all, until I set up fully atomated boring defense, that'll free my doctors to be able to haul some meat and patch it up in time. I am not sure if I am up for it to live that long only relying on joined wanderers or saved ecapees from pods.
I completely disagree with Thrumbo being at the same disadvantage as colonists - it has only melee attack, so you have twice the chance to bring it down or kite it long enough for it to don't any damage at all. Scheme of two shooting\one kiting can bring Thrumbo down even with initial pistol and survival rifle if you got fastwalker pawn or if you are lucky enough to hit thrumbo in the legs with first couple of hits. With it going down twice as fast... well I'd say it'll be as good as an exploit. I don't really see how to fix that though, I don't think you can define different critical pain thresholds for different species in RW codes... Well, anyways thanks) the idea is quite good, so I will try it out and will post if I come up with some suggestions or feedback =)
Quote from: Madman666 on February 25, 2017, 06:32:18 AM
Wow, quite strange experience really. My colonists mostly only die to unlucky sniper or charge lance shot that landed right (heart, liver, brain, yep). Otherwise they always survive badly crippled, but alive and mostly usable for work even. Prisoners however die from bleeding quie often for me because while I tend to my own people too much time passes. With a pawn bleeding in literally two hours with only 2 heavy wounds I'd say I'll probably never get any prisoners at all, until I set up fully atomated boring defense, that'll free my doctors to be able to haul some meat and patch it up in time. I am not sure if I am up for it to live that long only relying on joined wanderers or saved ecapees from pods.
"...My colonists mostly only die to unlucky sniper or charge lance shot that landed right...Otherwise they always survive badly crippled, but alive and mostly usable for work even..."
...Which is frustrating and completely RNG driven.
"while I tend to my own people too much time passes."
Quicker down means less wounds overall, less time it would take for wounds.
"With a pawn bleeding in literally two hours"
Not every pawns die within two hours, some goes for 4 to 7 hours, and in worst cases, you can maces or even fist. bruises cause thrice more pain.
Quote
I completely disagree with Thrumbo being as same disadvantage then colonists - it has only melee attack, so you have twice the chance to bring it down or kite it long enough for it to don't any damage at all. Scheme of two shooting\one kiting can bring Thrumbo down even with initial pistol and survival rifle if you got fastwalker pawn or if you are lucky enough to hit thrumbo in the legs with first couple of hits. With it going down twice as fast... well I'd say it'll be as good as an exploit.
Which is called... Cheese. You're basically killing it without any harm, only faster. Also Realistically a person wouldn't able to run for hours and hours without single breath taking, at maximum speed at that.
I don't fancy going melee at fools armed with firearms, unless its an ambush where I can swarm them before they shoot, so bruises being painful doesn't help much. It actually more harms then helps, as its mostly enemies tend to swarm you with melee meat shields.
Tending with industrial meds actually patches up 2-3 wounds at a time, so even if there is less wounds, tending time depends mostly on skill and its usually crap in early game, when you actually need prisoners.
Kiting a Thrumbo called a cheese? Wow. I thought feeding it with beer and then slaughtering called cheese or building it up in a box while it sleeps and starving it to death called cheese. Yeah ok, a pawn can't run around for hours in real life. But can an animal survive several bullets to the brain or heart, like Thrumbo can? Nope don't think so.
Quote from: Madman666 on February 25, 2017, 06:51:34 AM
Tending with industrial meds actually patches up 2-3 wounds at a time, so even if there is less wounds, tending time depends mostly on skill and its usually crap in early game, when you actually need prisoners.
Every time a wound is sealed it stops bleeding immediately, which add hours. Have you played with mods or are these theories?
"I don't fancy going melee at fools armed with firearms, unless its an ambush where I can swarm them before they shoot, so bruises being painful doesn't help much."
Which this mods helps, since quicker down means better ambush. Either that or hit them when raiders are fleeing.
Also maces deals around three times higher than just bare fist, so unless you're outnumbered 30 to 90 situation it's not more harms.
"Kiting a Thrumbo called a cheese? Wow. I thought feeding it with beer and then slaughtering called cheese or building it up in a box while it sleeps and starving it to death called cheese."
And please explain how would it change difficulty. With kiting you take zero damage. Without kiting you take zero damage. It's already broken in vanilla, unless I increase speed of animals or give them guns so you can't do it.
Quote from: Aristocat on February 25, 2017, 07:00:22 AM
Every time a wound is sealed it stops bleeding immediately, which add hours. Have you played with mods or are these theories?
"Kiting a Thrumbo called a cheese? Wow. I thought feeding it with beer and then slaughtering called cheese or building it up in a box while it sleeps and starving it to death called cheese."
And please explain how would it change difficulty. With kiting you take zero damage. Without kiting you take zero damage. It's already broken in vanilla, unless I increase speed of animals or give them guns so you can't do it.
Yes patching up a wound prolongs estimated lifetime of wounded. So you suggest patching up one wound so that person doesn't die, then switching to next wounded before he dies, patching up his 1 wound again so he won't die, while you switch to next one which is on the verge of death? Micromanagement hell I call it.
"And please explain how would it change difficulty"
Here you go - Thrumbo runs faster than colonists, so because its hard to bring it down it usually still gets a hit or two off, unless you're unloading on it with like 12 guys as the same time with good automatic weapons. With pain doubled it'll drop before it can do anything at all even if you shoot it with 3 guys and standard weapons.
And no - I admit I haven't tested your mods enough to call it more than theories and I judge by vanilla standart bleeding and tending mechanics. But three shots from survival rifle or two from charge lance killing a person in ~1.9-2 hours? I can tell thats too harsh even before I actually get to it.
Quote from: Madman666 on February 25, 2017, 07:06:49 AM
Quote from: Aristocat on February 25, 2017, 07:00:22 AM
Every time a wound is sealed it stops bleeding immediately, which add hours. Have you played with mods or are these theories?
"Kiting a Thrumbo called a cheese? Wow. I thought feeding it with beer and then slaughtering called cheese or building it up in a box while it sleeps and starving it to death called cheese."
And please explain how would it change difficulty. With kiting you take zero damage. Without kiting you take zero damage. It's already broken in vanilla, unless I increase speed of animals or give them guns so you can't do it.
Yes patching up a wound prolongs estimated lifetime of wounded. So you suggest patching up one wound so that person doesn't die, then switching to next wounded before he dies, patching up his 1 wound again so he won't die, while you switch to next one which is on the verge of death? Micromanagement hell I call it.
"And please explain how would it change difficulty"
Here you go - Thrumbo runs faster than colonists, so because its hard to bring it down it usually still gets a hit or two off, unless you're unloading on it with like 12 guys as the same time with good automatic weapons. With pain doubled it'll drop before it can do anything at all even if you shoot it with 3 guys and standard weapons.
And no - I admit I haven't tested your mods enough to call it more than theories and I judge by vanilla standart bleeding and tending mechanics. But three shots from survival rifle or two from charge lance killing a person in ~1.9-2 hours? I can tell thats too harsh even before I actually get to it.
Okay, I just had a quite trouble make everyone survive from bleeding because I had to attack a siege from the opposite of map and stupid game don't allows you treat human in the ground which oddly able to do to animals.
Treating time itself doesn't consume much time, maybe 30 minutes to treat 4 wounds even with 5 level doctor, the problem is travel time.
I think prisoner bleed death make mod balanced because increased pain means they are more likely incapped. I just had 5 raiders downed which I could only capture two because not enough colonists to carry them.
Otherwise? I think it's fairly balanced, although I might reduce bleeding a bit, 300% to maybe 200% or 250%.
Do note that you don't even have to use blood and pain mod.
And as for thrumbo I don't think you can kill them with standard weapons unless you use shoot-and-pop-in cheese. Even with twice more pain it take dozens of shot to take them down, and even if you do able to do it, it's RNG based event and you might even not see them so it's not really broken. And even if say it's REALLY broken, you can do it doesn't mean you must do it. Also do note that pain in the legs doesn't mean they are slowed down, this mod doesn't increase damage.
Its actually my bad - it was bouncing around in my brain that fights actually happen quite a lot in far away spots and actually delivering a person in time on maps more than default size can be problematic, but I somehow got glued to tending speed and such. You still can just place a sleeping spot and treat a person on point if your doc is a part of strike team, but treat quality will be guaranteed crap, which will lead to scar hell. And also its unfortunately can't be done to prisoners, as they require enclosed room with a sleeping spot, which is too bad (you can still arrange it to have "shelters" close to map borders, but thats... just feels wrong).
I'll play around with your mods, but I think playing with toughened bodies but without bleed rate will be way to unbalanced to even consider a run.
Thrumbo can be kited even with standart weapons without door pop-in\out tactics if you manage its aggro by making it switch from one pawn to another that is closer at the moment (and it will switch to closest target often), changing its path and wasting time being shot by two others. That does feel exploity, but I don't think anything can be done, that won't screw up animal combat AI completely.
What I suggest for you to try doing - play around with sieges on ludeonicrous maps (biggest) - see what kind of bleed rate allows you just barely make it in time to save someone badly wounded if you don't waste time on useless crap and if you have couple of trained fast dogs on stand by with your strike team. That should be the goal - you'll be able to save a person if you don't derp, but otherwise you'll pay for your inattention with your trained colonist.
Released an easy version that reduces bleed rate 3 times to 2 times.
TIP : If you want to get prisoners without easy mod don't use guns, explosives, and stabby weapons. Instead, use scratch, burn, crush or blunts. scratch and crush still cause bleeding but it's less than half of bullet wounds and stabby.
I don't know where the arrows falls but I think they cause less bleed as well.
Quote from: Aristocat on February 25, 2017, 10:35:57 AM
Released an easy version that reduces bleed rate 3 times to 2 times.
TIP : If you want to get prisoners without easy mod don't use guns, explosives, and stabby weapons. Instead, use scratch, burn, crush or blunts. scratch and crush still cause bleeding but it's less than half of bullet wounds and stabby.
I don't know where the arrows falls but I think they cause less bleed as well.
Bow and arrow causes cuts (strangely enough not shots) and they bleed as hell. So yeah for prisoners blunt is all the way... Won't be easy though, because they always outnumber you and can bruise you to knock out as easy as you can them.
Quote from: Madman666 on February 25, 2017, 11:23:51 AM
Bow and arrow causes cuts (strangely enough not shots) and they bleed as hell. So yeah for prisoners blunt is all the way... Won't be easy though, because they always outnumber you and can bruise you to knock out as easy as you can them.
Cuts still cause 25% less bleed than gunshots. Vanilla 0.04 for gunshots 0.03 for cuts, with mod 0.12 for gunshots and 0.09 for cuts. Enough to add few more hours.
I think I'm actually getting too many prisoners. I'm now selling them, it's nice roleplaying.
(http://i.imgur.com/3ww8nnN.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/3ww8nnN.jpg),
Okay, I'm going to separate bleed part. So if anyone doesn't want bleed you can get only pains. I found mod still quite hard without bleeding, because although colonists will more likely survive it doesn't mean you can fight with all of your colonists downed, and without field treating it's kind of frustrating really.
---
One thing about animals : They survive better, but they still lose body parts kind of too easily. If anyone want I'm going to make Tougher Animals. It will be compatible with adogsaid but I wish this mod would make adogsaid almost unnecessary.
I will not touch small critters like rats or bunny though, I'm going to buff bigger creatures like bears, wolves, and panthers to almost impossible to lose body parts.
---
If I can I think I'm going to make personal shield tougher, make it regenerate extremely slowly but has around ten times health.
Better qualitied melee weapons : Make higher quality melee weapons reduce the cooldown of attack and increase damage. I found melee weapons deal ridiculously low DPS while fighting infest.
Any thoughts?
This get away from vanilla, but wouldn't the best way to deal with blood loss in emergency situations be blood transfusions? Wouldn't close their wounds or staunch the flow, but refills their precious bodily fluids so that they can stay among the living a little longer.
Quote from: Hans Lemurson on February 27, 2017, 10:02:36 PM
This get away from vanilla, but wouldn't the best way to deal with blood loss in emergency situations be blood transfusions? Wouldn't close their wounds or staunch the flow, but refills their precious bodily fluids so that they can stay among the living a little longer.
Because it would be hard to code. If someone can make field treating and slower blood regenerate with blood transfusions would make nice realism mod.
You are kidding right? 10 times tougher shield? If you get a "shield wave" of trasher melees you're done for! If you get like 5-10 of them they already swarm you even if you have turrets and now you want to make them invulnerable to ranged fire? Is that to inspire people to use melee more? No, thanks, being melee when ratio friend to enemy is 1:3 1:5? Nope.
Quote from: Madman666 on February 28, 2017, 06:11:45 AM
You are kidding right? 10 times tougher shield? If you get a "shield wave" of trasher melees you're done for! If you get like 5-10 of them they already swarm you even if you have turrets and now you want to make them invulnerable to ranged fire? Is that to inspire people to use melee more? No, thanks, being melee when ratio friend to enemy is 1:3 1:5? Nope.
I was actually thinking about an upgraded version of personal shield so not really accessed by the raider, with around power armor level of research requirement + rare resource like gold. With separate release from VE-CO. That mod would be kind of like super-awesome-melee modpack.
Also, I was thinking making big creatures like wolves and bears nearly invincible(but still vulnerable to bleeding and pain) would be awesome, but I wonder if that would be balanced...
To make melee more viable we need medivel shield mod from skullywag in my opinion. Melee skill in general are just utterly lackluster in vanilla.
Also I think I can use MAI mod to make scythers and centipedes craftable, obviously should be separated release.
Why so centered on melee? Melee mostly sucks, even high melee skill doesn't do much. In my opinion melee needs like complete and utter overhaul from skills (different things like dodge, counters, blocks, grazes, knockdowns for animals - pounces, - its too primitive right now, it adds just hit chance which is quite high anyway). Its sucks mostly because you're always outnumbered and with current melee system a godlike 20 lvl figher can easily lose just by RNG to a complete novice, so its not viable at all. The only way melee is useful is if you have a bunch of enemies with ranged weapons, that you can instantly force into melee, while your guys have proper melee weapons, giving you advantage (that still can be negated if enemies heavily outnumber you).
Those advanced shields... well they can be useful to equip on a "bullet sponge" colonist to redirect fire, but I doubt people will actually switch to melee. Too many enemies to deal with, while the danger is too high. Losing limbs in melee is too easy.
How exactly are you plan to make wolves and bears invincible? Right now if you send someone to hunt in winter on the other end of the map and a hungry wolf decides to hunt him - in 90% of times he'll be dead, because wolves pretty much can't be defeated with bare fists and hunter always have ranged weapon. And you don't get the notification until wolf is already tearing him apart. Making them even more powerful can have... unwanted side effects. I am all up for diversifying melee combat and increasing combat pets usefulness, but I can't imagine it without incorporating a whole new melee system with mentioned things like pounces, deadly bear hugs, dodges and etc... I'd really like to have that, but that would probably require either insanely advanced coding expertise for a modder or for big T to make it himself.
If you can make mech available for use for colony defense - well that would be nothing short of a miracle - people are drooling all over mechanoids lately and I am too. But MAI just uses "reskinned" colonist entity - it still needs rest (instead of charge), it still bleeds, has a mood (which is buffed +100 by adroid trait) and etc... Its a solution and its better than nothing, but I can't see them as anything more that a colonist with a slightly different sprite. I don't think you can bypass those limitations easily until big T opens up more game's resources in xml.
Yeah, the brawler trait is effectively useless as it stands. This is supposed to be addressed next alpha though...
Quote from: XeoNovaDan on February 28, 2017, 11:42:32 AM
Yeah, the brawler trait is effectively useless as it stands. This is supposed to be addressed next alpha though...
I really hope you are right. I highly doubt, T will overhaul melee system as a whole though... Its a lot of stuff to add and he himself said, that A17 will be a refining patch-build.
Yeah, slight tweaking to at least make melee SEEM more worthwhile is one thing... a complete overhaul is another
I think it'll be a while though, if you look at the poll.
Quote from: Madman666 on February 28, 2017, 07:44:30 AM
Why so centered on melee? Melee mostly sucks, even high melee skill doesn't do much. In my opinion melee needs like complete and utter overhaul from skills (different things like dodge, counters, blocks, grazes, knockdowns for animals - pounces, - its too primitive right now, it adds just hit chance which is quite high anyway). Its sucks mostly because you're always outnumbered and with current melee system a godlike 20 lvl figher can easily lose just by RNG to a complete novice, so its not viable at all. The only way melee is useful is if you have a bunch of enemies with ranged weapons, that you can instantly force into melee, while your guys have proper melee weapons, giving you advantage (that still can be negated if enemies heavily outnumber you).
In A14 or A15 I made a mod that higher quality weapons has shorter cooldown time and legendary sword allowed me to attack almost three times per enemy punch, so it was ridiculously overpowered and it was "viable", so I'd say godlike melee is rather easily possible if they make melee skill reduce cooldown and increase damage. It increased damage so high that even centipedes died within second.
Though this isn't for melee. In my current run all of my guys armed with shotguns and heavy SMGs with few melees and it's very viable, especially since they don't lose bodyparts like in vanilla. Problem is though, I have few bears and wolves but they are mostly useless, so that's why I want to buff them.
QuoteThose advanced shields... well they can be useful to equip on a "bullet sponge" colonist to redirect fire, but I doubt people will actually switch to melee. Too many enemies to deal with, while the danger is too high. Losing limbs in melee is too easy.
It would be useless for bullet sponge pawns since it doesn't really regenerate in battle, it's more useful when you try to breach through and need to redirect first fire.
QuoteHow exactly are you plan to make wolves and bears invincible? Right now if you send someone to hunt in winter on the other end of the map and a hungry wolf decides to hunt him - in 90% of times he'll be dead, because wolves pretty much can't be defeated with bare fists and hunter always have ranged weapon. And you don't get the notification until wolf is already tearing him apart. Making them even more powerful can have... unwanted side effects. I am all up for diversifying melee combat and increasing combat pets usefulness, but I can't imagine it without incorporating a whole new melee system with mentioned things like pounces, deadly bear hugs, dodges and etc... I'd really like to have that, but that would probably require either insanely advanced coding expertise for a modder or for big T to make it himself.
I'm going to... increase their body parts hp. That's it. Invincible as in take few shots in the arms without losing goddamned body parts.
I don't think it will affect their hunting aspect, as I'm not planning to increase their damage. Though if you make them follow you they could helped you survive.
Well, I see no harm in trying. I still don't like melee at all and speeding cooldowns either depending on quality or on skill in my opinion won't make it much better and fun to use, but it would be better than it is now. I still hope T will overhaul it completely at some point.
Buffing animal parts could be nice, since you did buff human parts already, so combat pets actually will spend more time with all their bodyparts in place instead of being a consumable, that works pretty much for one fight. I'll still dream of dodges, blocks and pounces, but that could be a start.
or we just add the damage just like combat realism
Hmm, am I the only noticed pawns sometimes drop die from "blood loss" even though they lost only 40%-60% blood? It seems it happens because blood loss reduce conscious and pawns die if conscious hit 0. This doesn't happen unless pawn already lost some conscious from other means and I think this bug exist in vanilla as well. I fixed it by adding setmax, instead of offset. Will released along with tougher animal.
Is MFO supposed to use so much RAM? While normally the game takes about 800MB of RAM with the MFO enabled it jumps to 1.5GB, I alse get a massive performance decrease
Its not a bug really, its vanilla game mechanism to prevent rapid overpopulation of colonies, by having ~60% to kill any pawn thats not related to the colony upon being downed with whatever reason (bloodloss, leg shot off etc.), I am sure you know that.
Quote from: Madman666 on March 01, 2017, 08:30:16 AM
Its not a bug really, its vanilla game mechanism to prevent rapid overpopulation of colonies, by having ~60% to kill any pawn thats not related to the colony upon being downed with whatever reason (bloodloss, leg shot off etc.), I am sure you know that.
No this is difference. That mechanic kill off pawns when they are non-colonist and happen when downed. This one kills when blood loss reaches 40%, and only when you have other diseases that reduce consciousness, probably due to conscious loss stacks on top of each other.
Quote from: marvin__ on March 01, 2017, 07:54:05 AM
Is MFO supposed to use so much RAM? While normally the game takes about 800MB of RAM with the MFO enabled it jumps to 1.5GB, I alse get a massive performance decrease
That's odd. Mine uses 1.5GB regardless of MFO and VE-CO, although I used lots of mods.
Wow, that is a strange bug you found then. I honestly can't remember if I ever encountered it. I had many cases of blood loss more than 40%, but I don't remember if it killer anyone with another disease. You're probably thinking right - consciousness penalties stack and can easily kill a person, like major disease with a smokeleaf high and bloodloss and etc. It was probably overstacked to consciousnees 0%.
What does this mod lacks? Or is it the state of perfection? Did anyone even played it? It's updated 2 days ago btw, or was it 3.
I've read Madman's reply in EPOE, and I think one way to make super soldier is to reduce pain torso take and increase organ hit chance, so when you replace organs with synectics you become totally awesome, no bleeding no pain hulk. If you want really space marine like hulk you'll also need to increase all bodyparts hp by 4 - 6 times as well.
I think one thing lacks with the mod is that there is no cool battle pictures in the thread.
That'll be just unbalanced insanity with such big increases to hp. What I wanted is just a totally non-bleeding colonist by replacing all bodyparts, who can be, when downed, just brought in hospital, damaged parts set and quickly heal. What I'd really like is some sort of armor value built-in to artificial bodyparts, but that can't be done because game mechanics reasons, sadly. I do like EPOE to the point I can't play without it, because it allows reanimating deadwight colonists back by curing disabilities))
I played with your mod a bit, but not enough to offer more suggestions - It was an end of the month and there was crapton of work to be done ASAP.
Quote from: Madman666 on March 03, 2017, 05:54:33 AM
That'll be just unbalanced insanity with such big increases to hp. What I wanted is just a totally non-bleeding colonist by replacing all bodyparts, who can be, when downed, just brought in hospital, damaged parts set and quickly heal. What I'd really like is some sort of armor value built-in to artificial bodyparts, but that can't be done because game mechanics reasons, sadly. I do like EPOE to the point I can't play without it, because it allows reanimating deadwight colonists back by curing disabilities))
I played with your mod a bit, but not enough to offer more suggestions - It was an end of the month and there was crapton of work to be done ASAP.
You can decrease pain and bleed injuries in torso cause by 1/3 and instead put it on organs, so when you replace organs you no longer bleed or feel pain as much.
I think there might be other ways, how about dividing torso by 5 parts, but these torso parts doesn't have linked body parts so they can be replaced?
Quote from: Aristocat on March 03, 2017, 08:44:23 AM
You can decrease pain and bleed injuries in torso cause by 1/3 and instead put it on organs, so when you replace organs you no longer bleed or feel pain as much.
I think there might be other ways, how about dividing torso by 5 parts, but these torso parts doesn't have linked body parts so they can be replaced?
I don't really know much about how whole bodypart system works, there are some limits like you can't increase health on bionic parts without raising normal part's hp or you can't add armor to them and etc. I don't even know if you can divide torso like that at all. I just like that bionic parts don't bleed and don't cause pain when hit (at least I think they don't cause pain...). Now you can change pretty much everything and EPOE's options are vast - you can pretty much make full android... BUT. Torso still squishy and it has ~30% of being hit out of all parts pawn has it the biggest chance obviously enough. And you can't replace it, without auto deleting all thats attached to it as Ykara said at EPOE's thread. And even if you counter it by somehow dividing torso onto parts you can change - I can't imagine how to do that.
To make a non-bleeding robot pawn I want to have, you'd have to redirect torso's hit chance to some new bionic parts you can install. And changing hit chance will obviously mess with vanilla bodypart system and as such will be incompatible with everything related to bodypart modification including EPOE, which I can't play without)) I think in this case the best we can hope for - is that in future Alphas big T opens up more of the game code in xmls, making it more flexible for us to play around with.
Quote from: Aristocat on March 03, 2017, 01:45:53 AM
What does this mod lacks? Or is it the state of perfection? Did anyone even played it? It's updated 2 days ago btw, or was it 3.
I have not played it. The increased pain sounds very promising*, but bleeding out is already too much of a problem, considering that A) doctors don't factor it in when prioritizing wounds to treat, B) there's no quick way to treat downed enemies, and C) even if there were, the "innocent prisoner died/patient died in my care" morale loss is considerable and long lasting.
*BTW, would it be possible to mod in increased pain for untreated wounds, roughly-vanilla pain for bandaged wounds, and greatly reduced pain for permanent injuries? Scars and old gunshots have the opposite problem, in that they can be quite debilitating for no good reason at all.
Quote from: Derp on March 03, 2017, 11:27:53 AM
Quote from: Aristocat on March 03, 2017, 01:45:53 AM
What does this mod lacks? Or is it the state of perfection? Did anyone even played it? It's updated 2 days ago btw, or was it 3.
I have not played it. The increased pain sounds very promising*, but bleeding out is already too much of a problem, considering that A) doctors don't factor it in when prioritizing wounds to treat, B) there's no quick way to treat downed enemies, and C) even if there were, the "innocent prisoner died/patient died in my care" morale loss is considerable and long lasting.
*BTW, would it be possible to mod in increased pain for untreated wounds, roughly-vanilla pain for bandaged wounds, and greatly reduced pain for permanent injuries? Scars and old gunshots have the opposite problem, in that they can be quite debilitating for no good reason at all.
I think problem with not increasing bleeding is that this mod already decrease difficulty considerably. I'm 3 years in and not even single colonist died from torso destruction because all of them downed before that happens, and without bleeding, pawns will be practically invincible. Though, I felt thrice bleeding really went too much and I will consider release no increased bleeding version as well.
This mod doesn't increase pain from scars but I can reduce them further.
Quote from: Madman666 on March 03, 2017, 09:56:18 AM
Quote from: Aristocat on March 03, 2017, 08:44:23 AM
You can decrease pain and bleed injuries in torso cause by 1/3 and instead put it on organs, so when you replace organs you no longer bleed or feel pain as much.
I think there might be other ways, how about dividing torso by 5 parts, but these torso parts doesn't have linked body parts so they can be replaced?
I don't really know much about how whole bodypart system works, there are some limits like you can't increase health on bionic parts without raising normal part's hp or you can't add armor to them and etc. I don't even know if you can divide torso like that at all. I just like that bionic parts don't bleed and don't cause pain when hit (at least I think they don't cause pain...). Now you can change pretty much everything and EPOE's options are vast - you can pretty much make full android... BUT. Torso still squishy and it has ~30% of being hit out of all parts pawn has it the biggest chance obviously enough. And you can't replace it, without auto deleting all thats attached to it as Ykara said at EPOE's thread. And even if you counter it by somehow dividing torso onto parts you can change - I can't imagine how to do that.
To make a non-bleeding robot pawn I want to have, you'd have to redirect torso's hit chance to some new bionic parts you can install. And changing hit chance will obviously mess with vanilla bodypart system and as such will be incompatible with everything related to bodypart modification including EPOE, which I can't play without)) I think in this case the best we can hope for - is that in future Alphas big T opens up more of the game code in xmls, making it more flexible for us to play around with.
I don't think it would really cause incompatibilities. You might need copy installing exoskeleton.xml and add new torsoes but I think that would be it. This mod change coverage but it works perfectly fine with EPOE for instance. It might be incompatible with save though, because new bodies.
Quote from: Aristocat on March 03, 2017, 10:23:06 PM
I don't think it would really cause incompatibilities. You might need copy installing exoskeleton.xml and add new torsoes but I think that would be it. This mod change coverage but it works perfectly fine with EPOE for instance. It might be incompatible with save though, because new bodies.
Well, then we should post this idea to EPOE's author to see if he's willing to implement something like that. By the way - if you wanna increase the amount of people playtesting your mods - I suggest Steam Workshop if you have access.
Quote from: Madman666 on March 04, 2017, 05:20:56 AM
Quote from: Aristocat on March 03, 2017, 10:23:06 PM
I don't think it would really cause incompatibilities. You might need copy installing exoskeleton.xml and add new torsoes but I think that would be it. This mod change coverage but it works perfectly fine with EPOE for instance. It might be incompatible with save though, because new bodies.
Well, then we should post this idea to EPOE's author to see if he's willing to implement something like that. By the way - if you wanna increase the amount of people playtesting your mods - I suggest Steam Workshop if you have access.
I don't think Ykara will implant something like this, it's kind of too big overhaul.
Adding new body parts for some reason just didn't worked. I thought this would be cakewalk but honestly not sure what did I do wrong.
I instead replaced clavicle and pelvis with upper torso and lower torso, which both inside torso, and high chance to hit when attack hit torso. So basically, in vanilla if you get hit in torso you suffer 100% blood loss. With divided you suffer 30% from torso itself and 100% from either upper or lower torso. So when you replace either upper or lower you only suffer 30% from torso... Not sure if this will work as exactly intended though.
http://i.imgur.com/H4PuQIa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vOXGLsI.jpg
I didn't add exoskeleton recipe yet, so it's arms instead.
The problem would be whether it's balanced or not. Also although they are torso they when destroyed they don't immediately kill pawn. Lower torso will paralyze(down) pawn while upper torso will remove manipulation. Another problem I encountered was bodies.XML seems can't use painfactor, although I admit I didn't even tried it.
I think I should have made "new torsos" outside of "original torso", but I'm not sure how do I do it.
Another way is just not replace either of it and increase hit chance of organs more and decrease bleeding amount of torso. Since torso injury that didn't hit organs probably weren't that significant injury it's kind of realistic. It should also followed by increased hp of organs as otherwise organs will destroyed in practically every battle. This is also much easier way.
Yep, I expected something like that. RW's bodypart and combat damage system is so amazingly complex! That was what initially drew me in this game. Unfortunately while being interesting, it also introduces unforseen problems, when it comes to adding or drastically changing this system... Oh, well.
As for balance, pawns should definitely die if their pseudo-torso is destroyed its already made unbleeding and painless which is a massive boost to a person survivability, as you can pull them away in time even if heavily injured, while you'll need to carry fleshy pawn with a second one. Otherwise it'll already be closer to artificial "Arni" than to a living colonist. Complete robot could be good, but thats another theme alltogether.
Quote from: Madman666 on March 04, 2017, 10:16:51 AM
Yep, I expected something like that. RW's bodypart and combat damage system is so amazingly complex! That was what initially drew me in this game. Unfortunately while being interesting, it also introduces unforseen problems, when it comes to adding or drastically changing this system... Oh, well.
As for balance, pawns should definitely die if their pseudo-torso is destroyed its already made unbleeding and painless which is a massive boost to a person survivability, as you can pull them away in time even if heavily injured, while you'll need to carry fleshy pawn with a second one. Otherwise it'll already be closer to artificial "Arni" than to a living colonist. Complete robot could be good, but thats another theme alltogether.
It seems not possible to make new torsos lethal without making other organs non-lethal because pawn dies when one of the activities reaches zero but all activities are already used.
I played the game a bit more with VE-CO and I think they are already pretty strong if you get them bionics so I want to focus on difference things; make game more quality over quantity. Planned features so far :
Quality Weapons : Quality of weapon increase or decrease cooldown based on quality. Make quality more significant on accuracy and melee damage - done
Quality tools and Military Equipments : "Accessory" tools and military equipment for colonists. I.e. gloves and boots to decrease aim time and increase move speed. Tools that increase work speed. Quality of equipment decrease or increase tool's effectiveness
Healthy : Eating healthy meals make pawn more stable and diligent. Make colonist move, learn, recover from wound faster while decreases mental break threshold. Not sure how exactly this should be done. Maybe add some sort of vitamins? Wouldn't that be too complicated?
Another one : Craftable personal shield and modded personal shield that regenerate extremely slowly but has 5 times health.
---
Vanilla bleeding version has been released for VE-CO.
Quote from: Aristocat on March 03, 2017, 10:23:06 PM
Quote from: Derp on March 03, 2017, 11:27:53 AM
Quote from: Aristocat on March 03, 2017, 01:45:53 AM
What does this mod lacks? Or is it the state of perfection? Did anyone even played it? It's updated 2 days ago btw, or was it 3.
I have not played it. The increased pain sounds very promising*, but bleeding out is already too much of a problem, considering that A) doctors don't factor it in when prioritizing wounds to treat, B) there's no quick way to treat downed enemies, and C) even if there were, the "innocent prisoner died/patient died in my care" morale loss is considerable and long lasting.
*BTW, would it be possible to mod in increased pain for untreated wounds, roughly-vanilla pain for bandaged wounds, and greatly reduced pain for permanent injuries? Scars and old gunshots have the opposite problem, in that they can be quite debilitating for no good reason at all.
I think problem with not increasing bleeding is that this mod already decrease difficulty considerably. I'm 3 years in and not even single colonist died from torso destruction because all of them downed before that happens, and without bleeding, pawns will be practically invincible. Though, I felt thrice bleeding really went too much and I will consider release no increased bleeding version as well.
This mod doesn't increase pain from scars but I can reduce them further.
I needed to increase the rate of downing for a scenario (medieval lord and a bunch of serfs. Whiny little snowflakes keep berserking just because they don't have rooms or furniture or cooked food or joy time) so I tried this mod out anyway (the lite version, with the addons), and I gotta admit that you're right, it works well. I've had a few enemies bleed out before I could get to them, but on the whole the 2/3 chance to drop dead when downed is a bigger killer of pawns I want to keep.
I think that even with the doubling, bleeding is
less of an issue than in vanilla. Pawns now drop after two or three shots, so the common situation where a pawn bleeds out from a severed limb while the doctor treats their dozens of tiny bulletholes first is much less likely to happen. If you can get them to a bed and a doctor with an hour or so to spare, they'll probably make it, whereas anything less than five is often terminal in vanilla.
Scar pain is still annoying though. Are you sure you didn't increase it? My scribe spawned with a minor scar that gives her enough pain for a mostly permanent -10 mood. I have to coddle her almost at much as my lord just to keep her functioning. A scar reduction would be a big help, since you're fiddling with pain values as it is and everyone agrees that it's a problem.
Its just that with increased pain factor for wounds types (cut, shot, bruise, crack etc.), it probably is increased for scars as well (because scars and old gunshots are considered wound type by the game, just non treatable and they usually cause as much pain as they were causeing the moment they got "old" and thus unhealable). In vanilla RW as I noticed scars actually can be really minor (in terms of damage to a limb) and still can be just on a border of causing constant -10 mood. Pain modifier increase easily pushes even scratches to -10 which can suck atrociously.
Quote from: Derp on March 07, 2017, 01:41:48 PM
I needed to increase the rate of downing for a scenario (medieval lord and a bunch of serfs. Whiny little snowflakes keep berserking just because they don't have rooms or furniture or cooked food or joy time) so I tried this mod out anyway (the lite version, with the addons), and I gotta admit that you're right, it works well. I've had a few enemies bleed out before I could get to them, but on the whole the 2/3 chance to drop dead when downed is a bigger killer of pawns I want to keep.
I think that even with the doubling, bleeding is less of an issue than in vanilla. Pawns now drop after two or three shots, so the common situation where a pawn bleeds out from a severed limb while the doctor treats their dozens of tiny bulletholes first is much less likely to happen. If you can get them to a bed and a doctor with an hour or so to spare, they'll probably make it, whereas anything less than five is often terminal in vanilla.
Scar pain is still annoying though. Are you sure you didn't increase it? My scribe spawned with a minor scar that gives her enough pain for a mostly permanent -10 mood. I have to coddle her almost at much as my lord just to keep her functioning. A scar reduction would be a big help, since you're fiddling with pain values as it is and everyone agrees that it's a problem.
Glad you liked the mod.
For scars though I'm pretty sure I didn't increased it.
Scars
http://imgur.com/dTvqJzV.jpg
Permanent injury
http://i.imgur.com/BJJPDrK.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/BJJPDrK.jpg)
<Override.Def Type="HediffDef" Target="Gunshot">
<injuryProps Mode="Replace">
<bleedRate>0.12</bleedRate>
<painPerSeverity>0.025</painPerSeverity>
<averagePainPerSeverityOld>0.00625</averagePainPerSeverityOld>
<canMerge>false</canMerge>
<destroyedLabel>Shot off</destroyedLabel>
<destroyedOutLabel>Shot out</destroyedOutLabel>
</injuryProps>
</Override.Def><averagePainPerSeverityOld> Is pain scars cause. So if you have 5 damage scar it causes 3% pain.
I think the problem is not that scars cause pain but it causes too high damage on body and permanent mood debuff.
I'm making a mod that reduce mood debuff durations and pain debuff. So little pain cause 0 mood loss while - 10 become - 2.
It also looks like scars don't cause much pain but Permanent Injury isn't considered scar and cause extreme pain, which is kind of realistic I suppose, but I will try to fix it although I'm not sure it's even possibly fixed it if it doesn't even considered scar.
If you have trouble with berserks you can try psychology mod.
Quote- Berserk (extreme): The same mental break you know and love, but its frequency is greatly reduced. Bloodlust pawns now have the greatest chance to go berserk, followed by psychopaths, then brawlers. (idea credit twoski)
- Sadism (extreme): The pawn will go after the colony's prisoners and pets, as well as wild animals, and brutalize them. Psychopaths have the greatest chance to become sadistic, followed by bloodlust pawns, then brawlers. (idea credit twoski)
- Self-harm (extreme): The pawn will cut their hands and arms and hide in their room. Masochists have the greatest chance to self-harm. (idea credit twoski)
- Tantrum (extreme): The pawn will destroy nearby furniture and buildings. (idea credit twoski)
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=24648.0 (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=24648.0)
If you have trouble with scars and permanent injuries you might want to get DEsurgeries mod for scar removal although that take quite research.
Updated to A17!
"I couldn't play without this mod!!"... Anyone?... Noone? Well...
Sorry, I'm a little confused by the description and the file options. The description talks about 200%, 100%, and 0% "times" bleeding. The file downloads are 300%, 200%, and vanilla. I think I'm reading the three options are: vanilla bleeding speed * 3, vanilla * 2, and vanilla, and that the vanilla * 2 is recommended for A17?
*If* I've got that correct, then maybe the descriptions and files could be either 300% bleeding, 200% bleeding, and vanilla bleeding, or bleeding x 3.0, bleeding x 2.0, and vanilla bleeding.
Not big deal and I'm only commenting because I love the idea of a lightweight combat mod to fix the horrendous vanilla combat experience without bundling laser beams and cat people at the same time. Thank you for making it!
Quote from: Famous Shoes on May 31, 2017, 02:12:32 PM
Sorry, I'm a little confused by the description and the file options. The description talks about 200%, 100%, and 0% "times" bleeding. The file downloads are 300%, 200%, and vanilla. I think I'm reading the three options are: vanilla bleeding speed * 3, vanilla * 2, and vanilla, and that the vanilla * 2 is recommended for A17?
*If* I've got that correct, then maybe the descriptions and files could be either 300% bleeding, 200% bleeding, and vanilla bleeding, or bleeding x 3.0, bleeding x 2.0, and vanilla bleeding.
Not big deal and I'm only commenting because I love the idea of a lightweight combat mod to fix the horrendous vanilla combat experience without bundling laser beams and cat people at the same time. Thank you for making it!
Are these less confusing? Sorry, I'm not a native speaker. Originally it was "three times more", but doesn't that sounded like +300%, total 400%?
Quote- Injuries cause bleeding + 200%/100%/0%(No change) more severe. Total 300%/200%/100%(Vanilla).
- Punctured organs now cause 200%/100%/0%(No change) more severe bleeding. (In vanilla, punctured kidney, lungs and liver etc doesn't cause additional blood loss, only heart and neck does.)
- Less bleeding and vanilla bleeding versions are also available. I recommend 200% or vanilla version as A17 made bleed recover slower and 300% version gets quite hardcore.
Is there any compatibility with Rah's Surgery mod?
Quote from: Napple on May 31, 2017, 03:41:01 PM
Is there any compatibility with Rah's Surgery mod?
Does that mod change rib to rib 1, 2, etc? If so you should use EPOE compatible version.
Quote from: Aristocat on May 31, 2017, 03:30:52 PM
Are these less confusing? Sorry, I'm not a native speaker. Originally it was "three times more", but doesn't that sounded like +300%, total 400%?
Quote
I think consistency is all that is important and all I'd need to decide which file I want to download. I was only confused by the two different number sets used, where one set went from 300% to 100% and the other from 200% to 0%.
If you're also interested in the English around this sort of thing: "300% bleeding", "bleeding: 300%", "bleed rate: 300%", "3x bleeding" or "bleeding: 3x" are some common English structures for bleedRate * 3.0f, while including the word "times" and a percent sign as in "300% times bleeding" could be confusing as it literally means (3.0f * bleedRate) * bleedRate. 0% would usually be understood to mean bleedRate * 0.0f. Also note that "400%" and "+300%" would be understood to be the same thing, but "400%" is the more commonly seen construction, except in the case of discounted items for sale, in which case you will most often see "15% off" or "discounted by 15%", which means value - (value * 0.15f).
Hello!
Mod looks like the one I was looking for with no incompatibilities and a bit more realism but not too much complication. And great discussion: 've read everything and got all the answers about not being able to transport all the injured in time and bleeding out.
Completely agree about field treating/infusions or some mechanic that will add an option of the temporary treatment, which, btw, is needed not solely in combat.
So I think 200% is an appropriate option. Will try it and get back to you. Thanks a lot for your work!
Sounds awesome. Will playtest soon. Looking forward to the animal update. ALSO, great job setting up the downloads. It's so easy to quickly install your mods!
Waiting here, twiddling my thumbs patiently until this updates. Why? I can't play without it. It's important to me. @.@
"In a way this is basically mini-Combat Realism"
Except that CR and CE make pawns vulnerable and loosing limbs oneshot, as oposed to "Feature Overview :
- Colonists are more likely survive and less likely lose body parts"
Yeah, this mod has become one of, if not THE mod I now base my other combat related mods around. As much as I like CE, I enjoy how the fighting feels with the 200% blood and pain, damage distribution and tougher body. In some ways it's more dangerous, but surviving fights don't feel like the character is permanently mutilated so I get a richer story for my combat pawns with this.
Certainly looking forward to a B18 version!
Same! It would be very cool if the mod gets updated!
Oh, I agree, wouldn't it?
You know, I heard there's been a rash of some rude amateur modders running about, updating things for B18 without authors permissions. Scandalous! Yet one can't help but wish someone - anyone, even an uncouth, dastardly rogue such as they - would cast favor upon our favorites to bring them into this brave new B18 world.
(psst... here's a mega link for an unofficial B18 update)
https://mega.nz/#!weJzUARB!3Wg_Y4Ml28otfgmxZL7mvNHwwWkUZUtaiavepsIvqrQ
Quote from: Zookes on November 24, 2017, 09:11:26 AM
Oh, I agree, wouldn't it?
You know, I heard there's been a rash of some rude amateur modders running about, updating things for B18 without authors permissions. Scandalous! Yet one can't help but wish someone - anyone, even an uncouth, dastardly rogue such as they - would cast favor upon our favorites to bring them into this brave new B18 world.
(psst... here's a mega link for an unofficial B18 update)
https://mega.nz/#!weJzUARB!3Wg_Y4Ml28otfgmxZL7mvNHwwWkUZUtaiavepsIvqrQ
You fiend! Why! I would never! ...oh who am I kidding xD Thanks for the unofficial update, I'll only use it until the official update arrives
Just when I was thinking these pawns are way more durable than I remembered. Or when I wondered when that luciferium addict would finally bleed out from so many injuries!
Thanks much for the unofficial support of the official mod that deserves much respect.
Aristocat! Can you update your VE-CO mod for release version of the game?
Pleeeeease!!!
How many pawns were destroyed during development? :D
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=47165.msg447426#msg447426
New version of this mod.