This thread is for discussing the blog post:
Official: New content in progress for Alpha 17 (https://ludeon.com/blog/2017/04/new-content-is-in-progress-for-alpha-17/)
It's just a quick update, but I thought y'all might have something to say :)
Just a quick note on a typo...i believe you mean 'worth' not 'work' in 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence. other than that new player here and awesome game....Alpha 17 sounds great.
You listened to my riverlands idea!
Does this mean that there will be rivers on the individual maps, and that we can build bridges and such?
And absolutely fantastic that people can tend to their own wounds.
Ok since I'm first and this may be seen quickly I'd like to make a request. Ships. Make them really Tiring to make and complicated and maybe have events happen on the ship that you make so that you have to fix it or defend against pirates. Thanks for your time. I know this is complicated but with the implementation of rivers and maybe canals this might be fun maybe plan this for Alpha 18 or 19 because we don't want to break the programmers back
Quote from: Robb on April 10, 2017, 07:56:22 PM
Just a quick note on a typo...i believe you mean 'worth' not 'work' in 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence. other than that new player here and awesome game....Alpha 17 sounds great.
Thanks! I fixed it.
Quote from: Edixo on April 10, 2017, 07:57:27 PM
Does this mean that there will be rivers on the individual maps, and that we can build bridges and such?
Rivers will be in the local maps, yes.
You can't build bridges at the moment; considering that. The rivers are fordable at many places thought.
Quote from: Tynan on April 10, 2017, 08:20:16 PM
Rivers will be in the local maps, yes.
You can't build bridges at the moment; considering that. The rivers are fordable at many places thought.
If you add bridges and the ability to expand rivers through digging ditches, that'd add a whole new level of base setup strategy.
Would a river running through a desert deposit soil on its banks to make an oasis? Like along the Nile river.
And, dare I ask, fishing?
As of now, still absolutely amazing. Continous credit to you for making the most entertaining game I've played in years.
I can hardly use caravans now due to performance issues so the focus on them worries me some. In the fixes and refinement part of the update can we expect any performance and optimization enhancements? Thanks for the post Tynan and of course, thanks for Rimworld!.
With this redone AI base generation, does this mean that enemy bases are now self-sufficient?
Quote from: GideonHidolka on April 10, 2017, 09:02:01 PM
I can hardly use caravans now due to performance issues
Wait what?
I'm playing on a 5 year old laptop with no graphics card, and while I get a bit of lag, I can still easily play the game.
What kind of toaster are you using?
Seriously. I play on a not-current laptop, and while it complains at time, it runs pretty well. Caravans haven't yet been an issue.
It worries me that the community is so averse to updates that don't provide content.
Modders can add content pretty easily but it's more difficult for modders to fix bugs, change AI flaws and make performance improvements.
The early game doesn't suffer from these issues but late game is full of them.
Quote from: lost_RD on April 10, 2017, 09:52:32 PM
It worries me that the community is so averse to updates that don't provide content.
Modders can add content pretty easily but it's more difficult for modders to fix bugs, change AI flaws and make performance improvements.
The early game doesn't suffer from these issues but late game is full of them.
I'm pretty sure it's not that people don't want to wait, so much as having combined several thousand manhours in various modders' time eaten up in updates ;)
In any case, love the thought of rivers, hoping for fisher
dwarvespawns :)
"People can tend their own wounds now!"
WHOO!
I'm curious to see what the rivers will look like. Will they freeze in Winter? It'd be cool if the rivers sometimes go dry if they are sourced from mountains in the summer (no melt ice). Neat anyhow on them being in the world and in local maps.
Is it difficult to change the planet's tilt? I'm curious if the code for sunlight and latitude are hardcoded or can take into account different rotational axes.
Quote from: Greep on April 10, 2017, 09:57:26 PM
I'm pretty sure it's not that people don't want to wait, so much as having combined several thousand manhours in various modders' time eaten up in updates ;)
As a modder, I would rather do small updates more often than be stuck with a huge update that I have to slog through, so personally I would rather a performance update followed by a content update. I welcome the opinions of other modders on this issue though.
Quote
Based on man-hours, Alpha 17 will probably be the most substantial update yet. RimWorld has become quite a beast in terms of design complexity, so it does take a lot longer now to design and tune things so they integrate into the rest of the game well, don't overwhelm players with complexity, and don't create weird exploits or nonsensical outcomes.
Hehe, that's the very same reason why Dwarf Fortress will never see a "final 1.0" release.
The more you add the more you have to rethink most of the things you add.
But, keep on working, the results so far are beautiful.
Thanks for the update, Tynan. Really looking forward to the 'quest' system and different AI Base layout. New AI behaviour is always welcome too
I have removed some off-topic posts.
This thread is to discuss the update (and it's fine if there's not that much to say); for open-ended suggestions discussion please hit the Suggestions forum. Thanks.
I'd be glad to hear more water map elements, I'm also hopeful for fishing; but I'm excited to hear about potential bottlenecks we can exploit (not in a cheese sort of way) that aren't vulnerable to frag grenades.
Now, you mention people treating their own wounds - very excited to see that - it's one of the problems trying to play a 'lone wanderer/hermit type'.
I'm also excited about the potential balance changes with animals, inferred from animal meat comments. Right now, it is so hard to be a traditional farmer, even ignoring the raids.
The one thing that kind of stood out, was the turret line; not sure if that was intentional - are we talking a bunch of improvised turrets or maybe something new?
Might be cool to go hunting down obscure parts for a robotic companion or new turret type - so I'm loving the idea of a modular 'quest' system, even if that's not the direction you were thinking with it.
All in all, glad to see the update news. Thanks for taking the time, Tynan.
Tynan many thanks for all your wonderful work.
Two questions to calm my hype.
you talked about roads onto the map.
Could I ask you which are the benefit to tread them? walk faster? You think it would be possibile to build new roads too?
secondly
rivers: it would be possibile to build rafts and sail in the future?
Have existing events been updated to use the world map properly? Events like toxic fallout or volcanic winter should clearly affect large sections of the world map rather than a single tile. Also do you have any plans to make manhunter packs or raids originate on the world map and require travelling to reach your colony?
I am modder currently working on a revived combat realism called Woke realism, and i am now currently working on making the prone function work again but seeing as Tynan is adding on new features for alpha 17 it would be fantastic to see prone and crouching in the base game of course if that would be too much for you i will make it work in the mod but to see the base game get more in depth in its combat system would be cool so you could then utilize different heights of cover.
This update make me excited. Maybe finally we have a reason to make caravans for non trading purposes. Global crisis events anyone :P ?
I'm really curious about how easily moddable (for the typical scrub tier modder like myself) will those 'quest sites' be
Sounds good, thanks for the update!
The thing about roads though, does that fit the Rimworld theme? Long-distance roads need to be built and maintained, workers protected, who does that? Doesn't that imply some sort of large-scale political control and/or corporation and not simply a bunch of semi-connected small settlements? This feeds into the question of course if the factions on the world map make sense as they are - scattered randomly around, with a faction having a settlements here and there and then thousands of miles away - how and why did they join up in this strange way?
Quoterebalancing and detailed redesign to make skills matter more
Looking forward to this, especially if the Research skill get some love, anything that makes it relevant for more than just one to a few colonists as well as still useful in the endgame would be rather welcome.
Suggestions in the past have delved into making the Research skill an Intellectual skill of various sorts rather than research specific only, like having a skill teaching system that also depend on it, but I suppose that might be a bit much to hope for this time around... >_<; A less elaborate system might be artifacts that sometimes get dropped from the sky that can be studied.
Either way, I'm definitively excited about the quest opportunities, sounds like a good incentive to get out there for those of us who have been hesitant about exploring the world much in A16, myself included.
As always, keep up the amazing work! If you ever run low on development funds, I'm going to throw my vote in for paid DLC's to keep things going (just saying). x3
I'm really looking forward to this update like many others are; you can take all the time you need, as the community shall know that their 'lord and saviour' is going to be bestowing us with a great update to a great game which is gaining popularity. Some aspects of the skill system do feel weak as it stands, so the whole relevance improvement is going to be a big one to look forward to. The whole 'quest' system is an unexpected one, so I'm particularly intrigued in that one amongst all others. The AI improvement mentioned is definitely a much needed one, considering how many current exploits exist.
I'm hoping that self-healing will be much less potent than a doctor doing the tending (even if it's say the head doctor tending themselves), and proportional quality and time (compared to if they were to tend somebody else) is based on the scale of the injury they're tending (not sure how difficult/easy that'll be to code) - and I've realised this is almost veering off to a suggestion.
That said, on a less relevant note:
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k101/XeoNovaDan/tynan%20plz_zpsodw6hwdc.png)
tynan plz with the repitition (or is it for effect?)
He said in another post (see page 1) that rivers will be both on the world map and on the colony map. So maybe that's what he was trying to say?
Hi there, on long game when you start to have a lot of people and animal, the game is getting slower and slower. Is there something that can be done to help. In my game, it going to slow to keep playing it. Not sure if it a cpu issue or something else.
Quote from: Monroyo on April 11, 2017, 08:21:48 AM
...
This is a well-known issue and there's probably not going to be a true 'fix' for a very long time to come. You can check out this mod (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=30114) though which improves things. You shouldn't post that sort of stuff on this thread though as it's irrelevant.
Is there any change related to food selection by different kind of pawns (prisoners, colonists, animals...). Will prisoners get feed with the worst available meals (for example) ?
And is there any changed regarding tending, healing, rescuing beside self-tending ?
I ask those questions as modder who wants to know if it is worth to update my current mods who changes those things
QuoteTons and tons of rebalancing and detailed redesign to make skills matter more, make the economy more coherent and balanced, make animal farming for meat viable, make cannibalism a bit less ho-hum, make surgery not absurd, make room stats matter in a sensible way, make storyteller incidents more varied, and so on.
Less meat and leather types ?
A17 makes me very excited. Sounds really good! Looking forward to the next dev-video(s).
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/ba/76/2b/ba762bfbf9db05a8b8e61eb06e4aa6ec.jpg) | Quote from: Tynan on April 11, 2017, 04:39:55 AM
- This thread is for discussing the blog post (https://ludeon.com/blog/2017/04/new-content-is-in-progress-for-alpha-17/)
- This thread is to discuss the update
- For open-ended suggestions discussion please hit the Suggestions forum (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?board=6.0)
Since open-ended discussion has been forbidden, I will make this a statement of facts not to be argued with. As a side-note, The word discussion doesn't seem to be clearly defined.
Discussion of blog post on A17 economics
Notice the complete lack of open-ended discussion opportunity: This is a bug report on the conceptual model of currency in Rimworld A17.
Money is created and destroyed by selling it into service and buying it back.
If I buy ten steel from a faction, then I have also created a debt to that faction for ten steel. Money is merely the token that represents that credit for ten steel, and at any time they may come and give me that token demanding that ten steel. Then I am bound to give them ten steel or it's equivalent in merchandise in exchange for the token. Which I may then destroy if that is my wish.
But if I tell them sorry I don't honor my promises so here's 8 steal instead, then it becomes a military action instead of a political one, and thus the phrase heads are going to roll.
On the topic of constructive criticism and censorship of input, do take care that self-defense doesn't create tunnel vision.
|
Since there are rivers would you consider putting in the fishing industry into actual effect because it offers more meat and leather as well as a production building.
Quote from: AngleWyrm on April 11, 2017, 12:10:44 PM
Quote from: Tynan on April 11, 2017, 04:39:55 AM
- This thread is for discussing the blog post (https://ludeon.com/blog/2017/04/new-content-is-in-progress-for-alpha-17/)
- This thread is to discuss the update
- For open-ended suggestions discussion please hit the Suggestions forum (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?board=6.0)
Since open-ended discussion has been forbidden-
Open-ended discussions are of course allowed
but if you have suggestions based on known a17 features (say, pit stops for the roads)
They are better taken into their very own threads in the suggestions forum where it's easier for the dev to come back later to actually find the suggestion and any relevant discussion about it instead it being all littered around this thread
Especially interested in the skill system rework.
Hopefully you can level-up pawns now and give them unique perks? :))
Looks cool! Are you saying there will be a way to have an automated or semi-automated way of farming animals?
love this game and making the AI bases more complex was exactly what i was hoping for in this update besides all the other good shit
I am really excited for this update. Especially the last point with rebalancing economy, animal farming and stuff.
Will there be some balancing to plant farming as well?
Quote from: Sirportalez on April 11, 2017, 05:38:08 PM
Will there be some balancing to plant farming as well?
Yes, the crop cycle is longer. Longer growing times, bigger harvests to match.
Hunting should also be a bit harder now since animals flee.
However, foraging is now more viable since wild plants spawn differently and yield different amounts of food when harvested.
And as noted, raising meat animals is more viable.
Overall I've been trying to make all the food sources viable, and distinct. Crops are efficient but take time to come to fruition, hunting is faster but riskier, foraging works consistently but is a bit slow and you'll denude the local area pretty fast, meat animal raising is tougher than crops but you get the other benefits from animals, and meat allows making nice meals. And of course all this varies by biome and situation.
I am seeing this is shaping up to be a much more usable, bug-free Dwarf Fortress indeed, judging by how you've described this update... I like it :)
+8
How will roads look on the close up map?
A big slab of paved tiles running through the map?
Quote from: Edixo on April 10, 2017, 09:22:07 PM
Quote from: GideonHidolka on April 10, 2017, 09:02:01 PM
I can hardly use caravans now due to performance issues
Wait what?
I'm playing on a 5 year old laptop with no graphics card, and while I get a bit of lag, I can still easily play the game.
What kind of toaster are you using?
What??? How??? my specs are
Windows 10
AMD Phenom 9150e quad core 1.8
6144 MB Ram
AMD Radeon HD 6570
It runs okay at first but drops after the 1st year, attempting to use a caravan or a second colony can drop it to 10 or 11 fps.
Quote from: Shinzy on April 11, 2017, 06:43:41 AM
I'm really curious about how easily moddable (for the typical scrub tier modder like myself) will those 'quest sites' be
this
If we can make a full on dungeon with loot inside and custom baddies... *grin*
Are there any plans for additional new items with this update? Furniture, security items, non-melee weapons/equipment etc are areas that seem a bit lacking at the moment, really.
Sounds like it will be a great update :) Still no trains though !! haha
Quotemake cannibalism a bit less ho-hum
Cannibalism should be a big deal, even worse if not starving and resorting to it solely as fuel. But after a season or so of it, would probably have less of an effect as the initial disgust by a non-cannibal.
-First off, I love you Tynan. Second...where to even begin. This is a bigger leap than the last update?! I thought you opened up the world with a16, and thats not even counting the mod potential for that as well. A17 'missions' is probably gonna be like misc mod questing on a bigger scale. Soguuuud.
-Really interested in learning more about roads, rivers, and economy reworks! I also hope to see more diplomatic interactions available in the future...but maybe thats for A18 ya? lol. My grand wish is for eventual space travel ala FTL however. Though thats either A30 or a huge mod overhaul
-Has the caravan system been improved? So people dont collapse while filling it up? You cant manually sleep while loading or fill joy. To sleep i have to hurt the packer so i can force sleep on medicbed. Also if you cancel loading priority you have to repack all over again(worse for transport pods since they may not pick up the very same pile of cloth and instead choose the one across the map instead of one right next to pod) and your other colonists may remove packed items from muffalo/pack animals. Love the new additions and would honestly prefer to see more of the creative features announced than even fixes like this, just curious about where the future of what was added by A16 additions lies.
Will there be any penalties for self tending wounds? I imagine it would be pretty difficult for even the best doctor to fix his own blown off nose. And how could we control who gets to self tend? Will it just work off of doctor order? If my second best doctor loses a leg or something, I want my number 1 doctor on it.
It sounded like just wound tending and not surgery. That would be strange with the current anesthetic implementation. Unless you just meant stopping the blown off nose bleed, nvm xD
Quote from: harpadarpa on April 12, 2017, 05:02:42 AM
Will there be any penalties for self tending wounds? I imagine it would be pretty difficult for even the best doctor to fix his own blown off nose. And how could we control who gets to self tend? Will it just work off of doctor order? If my second best doctor loses a leg or something, I want my number 1 doctor on it.
yeah i hope there is a penalty, slower tending maybe. i dont think self healing is gonna allow operations which i also agree with
Will we be able to plan caravan routes before moving out ? How about a way to measure tile distance so I can make an informed decision if researching Transport Pods is a good idea ? Currently traveling to the friendly AI ship is a trial&error. It's especially hard with Permadeath on.
Will vehicles be in A17 or A18 ? It's obvious they will be implemented soon, otherwise why roads and rivers. Will there be pirate ships or boats raiding you ?
Does it mean there will be changes to the Melee skill ? It's pretty pointless right now. Raise it to level 5 or so and any further increases are marginal. Are you going to rearrange melee weapons - for example Spear is currently almost top melee weapon, both in damage and price, but really spears are the simplest weapons right after clubs and stones. You could switch stats between gladius and spear and that would make more sense. Also what happened to axes ? Why have 4 types of similar weapon (shiv, knife, gladius, longsword) but no axe ?
Will A17 add any new types of turrets ? Current ones can be pretty underwhelming.
Any new pieces of apparel ? Lab coats with cleanliness bonus, straightjacket so psychiatric patients have something nice to wear, skirts or tutus so colonists have a new source of apparel-related bad thoughts ?
Will there finally be a new type of mechanoid ? At present their raids are too binary.
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 12, 2017, 06:47:14 AM
Will vehicles be in A17 or A18 ? It's obvious they will be implemented soon, otherwise why roads and rivers. Will there be pirate ships or boats raiding you ?
I don't follow your logic. From the very start I have wondered; why not rivers, since they would be pretty normal on a world with seas. And roads simply come with civilized society. Where exactly is the hint that vehicles will be added?
Quote from: Jarwy on April 12, 2017, 08:29:37 AM
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 12, 2017, 06:47:14 AM
Will vehicles be in A17 or A18 ? It's obvious they will be implemented soon, otherwise why roads and rivers. Will there be pirate ships or boats raiding you ?
I don't follow your logic. From the very start I have wondered; why not rivers, since they would be pretty normal on a world with seas. And roads simply come with civilized society. Where exactly is the hint that vehicles will be added?
Roads = Trade = Pulled Wagons
Carriages were developed before riding.
Remember the width of Modern Railways is still two roman horses
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/2e/b4/95/2eb49531a8b59bfc11772f99ac6e27ca.jpg) | Quote from: XeoNovaDan on April 11, 2017, 06:04:02 PM
I am seeing this is shaping up to be a much more usable ... Dwarf Fortress
I Agree: The level of organization is of a higher quality, and that comes out in game-play as usable features.
Dwarf Fortress was a pioneer and deserves credit for that visionary work, but also suffered from its many forays into detail. Their efforts were devoted to width rather than depth, which came across as shallow fiddly bits. |
Traveling using rivers would be awsome!
Please for the love of god, if you are going to make hunting more difficult make it so my colonist doesn't take several hours to finish off the downed animal.
It shouldn't be hard to take 1 shot to the head at point blank.
Quote from: SpaceDorf on April 12, 2017, 08:52:20 AM
Quote from: Jarwy on April 12, 2017, 08:29:37 AM
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 12, 2017, 06:47:14 AM
Will vehicles be in A17 or A18 ? It's obvious they will be implemented soon, otherwise why roads and rivers. Will there be pirate ships or boats raiding you ?
I don't follow your logic. From the very start I have wondered; why not rivers, since they would be pretty normal on a world with seas. And roads simply come with civilized society. Where exactly is the hint that vehicles will be added?
Roads = Trade = Pulled Wagons
Carriages were developed before riding.
Remember the width of Modern Railways is still two roman horses
Technically not all railways the same width (Russia is special). ;) Anyway, if it would be just carriages and carts, I wouldn't even call those vehicles. Does the Rimworld engine even support actual vehicles, like boats or cars? Currently, even the bigger creatures still seem to occupy the same amount of space as a person.
Quote from: Jarwy on April 12, 2017, 01:42:41 PM
Quote from: SpaceDorf on April 12, 2017, 08:52:20 AM
Quote from: Jarwy on April 12, 2017, 08:29:37 AM
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 12, 2017, 06:47:14 AM
Will vehicles be in A17 or A18 ? It's obvious they will be implemented soon, otherwise why roads and rivers. Will there be pirate ships or boats raiding you ?
I don't follow your logic. From the very start I have wondered; why not rivers, since they would be pretty normal on a world with seas. And roads simply come with civilized society. Where exactly is the hint that vehicles will be added?
Roads = Trade = Pulled Wagons
Carriages were developed before riding.
Remember the width of Modern Railways is still two roman horses
Technically not all railways the same width (Russia is special). ;) Anyway, if it would be just carriages and carts, I wouldn't even call those vehicles. Does the Rimworld engine even support actual vehicles, like boats or cars? Currently, even the bigger creatures still seem to occupy the same amount of space as a person.
The Arbitration: Realistic Research modpack back in A13 (or A14) had motorized vehicles, and carts that could be pulled by those ATVs or pushed by hand. Carts IIRC allowed 4 tiles worth of inventory.
Quote from: Jarwy on April 12, 2017, 01:42:41 PM
Quote from: SpaceDorf on April 12, 2017, 08:52:20 AM
Quote from: Jarwy on April 12, 2017, 08:29:37 AM
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 12, 2017, 06:47:14 AM
Will vehicles be in A17 or A18 ? It's obvious they will be implemented soon, otherwise why roads and rivers. Will there be pirate ships or boats raiding you ?
I don't follow your logic. From the very start I have wondered; why not rivers, since they would be pretty normal on a world with seas. And roads simply come with civilized society. Where exactly is the hint that vehicles will be added?
Roads = Trade = Pulled Wagons
Carriages were developed before riding.
Remember the width of Modern Railways is still two roman horses
Technically not all railways the same width (Russia is special). ;) Anyway, if it would be just carriages and carts, I wouldn't even call those vehicles. Does the Rimworld engine even support actual vehicles, like boats or cars? Currently, even the bigger creatures still seem to occupy the same amount of space as a person.
Yes....accuracy is piss poor. Really colonists should be able to be capable hunters with a shooting skill of 14
Heres arbitration: (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=19276) https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=19276
and heres a second vehicle mod that also looked cool though just for aesthetics:https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=2170.0
(http://dev.coldevil.com/rimworld/E-Vehicles/screenshot01.jpg)
http://dev.coldevil.com/rimworld/E-Vehicles/screenshot01.jpg
So from what i understand: Rivers and roads, We will have newer and diferent type of enemy outposts, the AI will act better in combat and will be more smart, a incident-quest system, a pawn can heal itself now and the skills-economy-meal system will be rebalanced.
About the rivers and roads : I don't know how it will work, but i don't expect only simple things like the speed penalty and speed bonus.
The newer outposts : Well, it will be interesting to see new and diferent outposts, i expect some of them to have fewer enemies and the outpost with the Leader with more enemies and more hard to destroy.
The AI in combat : Well, i've played in every difficulty, the AI is previsible, their movement can be handle pretty easy if you know the pattern, most of the time, they make it in numbers, not in movements and tactics and that's why turrets and mortars can be overpowered and do all the job in this kind of situation. I expect a more tactical AI, things like diferent teams, focused in stategy, focused in specific tasks, in a way which you will be hitted hard ... and die slowly.
Incident-Quest system : Once, i saw people inside the forum talking about this, it was a matter of time to this appear, the World didn't offer a lot of things to do, well my mind goes wild, when i remember how the modders can work with this newer possibilty.
The pawn healing : This is interesting, i was waiting for something like this, i expect some penalties if the pawn heals itself, depending of the damage.
The Re-balancing of the Economy-Meal-Skills and etc ... : Well, my body is ready ...
Aside jokes, the cannibalism thing got my attention, so the trait will be more extreme i guess ... The room stats are a expected thing. The surgery "will be more normal and less insane". Storytellers with newer and more variated incidents ... hmm interesting ... the only thing which i know, is Randy will still doing the same thing.
doesnt the misc mod offer incident questing? how will the new feature in a17 differ from the mod?
nice. i like the idea of river beeing a natural wall. will it be possible to alter the river way artificially in the future? to provide like better farming, traveling or defence??
and also: what about the huge lag and ram problems in late game? they rly stress me out
Thanks Ty. One of Rimworlds primary issues is the lack of refinement. Its not easy to do an overhaul.
I'm really interested in the changes to skills (as with that forum thread, there's a huge disparity in the value of skills) and even moreso to the changes to animal handling.
I rarely raise animals, as any meat-providing animals simply take too long/too much of an investment to raise, particularly when so many events and environmental hazards can do so much harm to animal breeding.
It's frustrating, as it makes meat production unreasonably difficult barring a couple techniques. Right now, it's easier to just occasionally take a drafted hunting party and murder a few herds than actually bother trying to raise animals.
Worse, the Animal Handling skill is basically worthless for farming animals, which is just plain bizarre.
I'm excited most about the rivers and roads. I really hope this is moving more in the direction of (and beyond!) Dwarf Fortress' worldgen/live world. It certainly seems that way, especially with more outposts too (no necromancer towers or evil biomes yet, though). The following questions (not A17-specific) come to mind:
- Will these rivers/roads have an effect on gameplay, other than moving throughout the world? Can we build boats to travel the waterways? Will we see waterway-based traders and raiders (Vikings!)? Will they also use lakes/oceans? Can we build bridges?
- Will we ever get waves for coastlines? At least a sound effect? I love coastal locations, but the audio-visual content is not fleshed out yet (understandably, but I hope it it will be soon).
- Will we get currents and sounds for rivers? Will we get added fluvial terrain with new plants/animals like marsh grasses, snakes, and crocodiles?
- Will we get a sort of real-time movement of people/groups/traders through the world, rather than just as a "storyteller RNG event"? Will their starting point (and anywhere they stop to trade) affect what they have to trade?
- Will we get more fully fleshed out settlements/societies/nations in the world? Large cities that span multiple "regions"?
- Of course, will we get water wheels and other water-based production facilities?
- Could we create "tolls" for waterways and tolls we have a settlement on?
Really, improving worldgen and world-connectedness are about as important to me as multiplayer, and given the latter is probably not happening, I'm super-stoked!
@Tynan can't wait for A17 everything sound great so far!
I've been having some lag issues here and there due to chicken farming, long year round colonies and massive raids, will A17 include optimizations?
"Enemy AI overhauls. They'll be harder to cheese in various ways and act more sensibly."
This honestly makes me nervous. If I have to battle endless waves of invaders who always outnumber me and who don't value their own lives, I don't *want* them to act optimally. The more 'sensible' the AI becomes, the more killboxes and the like are required.
Woah! Sounds promissing, I was just investigating how the "Ship Flag Mission" was done currently because it really hinted the possibility to create interesting locations for players to visit... So I guess I better hold my horses and focus on learning per-map events while waiting for A17 to be released instead, because that "quest part library" sounds like a potential spot to let modders fill-in content. Just a few questions:
- The "quest parts" will be connected to somekind of map-gen rules/templates so the site components can be selected at the moment of creating the world-map location? Or the assembled map will be randomly selected from the whole array of template/defs/assemblies and we just can control the "core part" of the location?
- The whole system will be "additive" in nature so different modders can add easily to the library of parts? Or this will be the initial draft with some examples to later be made more generalized (The point about "future extension" is what catches my attention... As if you weren't expecting mods to fill in content there ASAP).
AI revamps and skill revamps... Always nice to hear about them, sadly I have the feeling that my small moding attempt is gonna be trashed by A17... I guess surviving a new alpha is somekind of a modding "ordeal" every1 has to go through, lets see if I'm up for the challenge :) .
Quote from: Guilty Omelette on April 13, 2017, 08:38:58 PM
"Enemy AI overhauls. They'll be harder to cheese in various ways and act more sensibly."
This honestly makes me nervous. If I have to battle endless waves of invaders who always outnumber me and who don't value their own lives, I don't *want* them to act optimally. The more 'sensible' the AI becomes, the more killboxes and the like are required.
Well, I'd assume that smarter A.I. would come with a corresponding smaller raid sizes. Hopefully anyways. You can always set the difficulty down, but raid size is linked with everything else in difficulty. It's be nice if just the size of raids were a second difficulty option, since storytellers don't affect that IIRC, even phoebe.
QuoteThis honestly makes me nervous. If I have to battle endless waves of invaders who always outnumber me and who don't value their own lives, I don't *want* them to act optimally. The more 'sensible' the AI becomes, the more killboxes and the like are required.
Sometimes AI improvement do not make life harder for the player in the sense that it makes it more lethal, it may make them more "player like". Some behaviours I'm currently missing that do not make raids more lethal:
- Recognizing "lost" scenarios situations... A Tribal Raid against a full long range high tech colony, covered by intense mortar fire? Time to flee at the 1st sign of activity by the defenders, not after seeing more than half your fellows killed before even reaching a valid melee target.
- Intelligence. Each enemy pawn that escapes the map should at least tell stories about what he/she saw... Maybe AI from that settlement avoids repeating the previous raid entrance and try a different spot/facing? Probe Raids could be detected by the player... More frequent but with higher chances to retreat to gather Intel. That way players will get a hint that the "real raid" will come sooner or later, so they will have time to callback caravans/quest groups to help at defense.
- How about diplomatic AI? Or even faction-wide surrendering after repeated failed raids? At some points those AI leaders have to deal with the same things a Player has... After the n-th casualty even the most bloodthirsty leader can be "replaced" by a new one that may decide "making peace" with your colony is the only way to survive. Now that players can go offensive on a given Faction, makes sense that Factions take a more proactive role in diplomacy.
Quotemake cannibalism a bit less ho-hum
Inb4 prions
Looking forward to this. Along the same lines as oreganor will there be any improvements where it comes to the faction system in A17? Currently the faction system is rather undercooked at present, essentially other factions are your enemy or they are not. The relations numbers dont matter in reality, basically just whether they are red (hostile) or friendly (green). You can clearly make factions hate you by attacking them or capturing their people, but it is not easy to improve relations - and to be honest there is not much incentive to do so anyway. Given that there is a social skill for pawns it seems lacking that you cannot interact with visitors beyond attacking, capturing/rescuing members, or trading. Creating alliances and strong relationships with outsiders should surely matter just as much as attacking and defeating hostile ones, but there is no real reason or major benefits.
On a similar topic, the relationships with other pawns also seems not quite what it could be at present. There should be an ability to at least get pawns to talk to other pawns in an attempt to settle differences. Maybe high social skill pawns could act as mediators/councilors? This then has the option of either making grievances worse, causing more fights and/or disruptive behavior, or patching things up if successful.
Linked to this, the only real way to get pawns to talk to each other is to force them to eat at the same time. Having a 'eat' option in the schedule planner along with joy, sleep etc so you can get pawns to eat together (or separate if they are unfriendly or anti-social) would be hopefully be a quick thing to implement.
Hey!
Made this account to say the game is brilliant, have been playing for about 6 months now, and I'm absolutely in love.
few thoughts:
1. balancing - i think would be amazing if you put this patch out in beta (if possible). The wacky outcomes and exploitablity of economy/enemies are awesome at first, but after a while its a real deterrent to replaying
2. Improve the storyteller - I think idea of storytellers is amazing, would love to see more work added here
Quote from: corestandeven on April 14, 2017, 06:29:18 AM
Looking forward to this. Along the same lines as oreganor will there be any improvements where it comes to the faction system in A17? Currently the faction system is rather undercooked at present, essentially other factions are your enemy or they are not. The relations numbers dont matter in reality, basically just whether they are red (hostile) or friendly (green). You can clearly make factions hate you by attacking them or capturing their people, but it is not easy to improve relations - and to be honest there is not much incentive to do so anyway. Given that there is a social skill for pawns it seems lacking that you cannot interact with visitors beyond attacking, capturing/rescuing members, or trading. Creating alliances and strong relationships with outsiders should surely matter just as much as attacking and defeating hostile ones, but there is no real reason or major benefits.
On a similar topic, the relationships with other pawns also seems not quite what it could be at present. There should be an ability to at least get pawns to talk to other pawns in an attempt to settle differences. Maybe high social skill pawns could act as mediators/councilors? This then has the option of either making grievances worse, causing more fights and/or disruptive behavior, or patching things up if successful.
Linked to this, the only real way to get pawns to talk to each other is to force them to eat at the same time. Having a 'eat' option in the schedule planner along with joy, sleep etc so you can get pawns to eat together (or separate if they are unfriendly or anti-social) would be hopefully be a quick thing to implement.
I agree, diplomacy is lacking for factions, not enough interactions between them. Specially if a colonist has family ties to a leader or other type of leader in another faction. Hopefully now that we see the overworld expanding thats next on the agenda to start filling in all the new space thats opened up.
rivers sounds nice.... .BUT only if u can build bridges.... it would so nice. u dont have to go into woods or mountains if u can set your houses on water... *_*
hope so fishing will come too... that would be aweseome. :)
i agree with the others who don't mind a longer wait.
bug fixes are fine, since each new alpha has a few bug fixes along with substantial new features anyway. (it's been like that since forever)
but it's those new features which decides how soon players would choose to update to latest alpha (at least until their fave mods also get updated to the new version)
there's been some really cool mods that add new features (redist heat, bad hygiene, industrial rollers, real fog of war, realistic darkness, minimap, fishing industry, vegetable garden, hospitality, etc) and it's like a balancing act for the player if new alpha vanilla mode would be exciting enough to forego all those cool mods (until they get updated as well)
Rivers are probably implemented so that Tynan can implement Carp.
Or sponges... maybe savagery will come next?
Capybaras might've also gotten a boost in A17 so that they're as aggressive as emus should be.
Maybe he'll even add horrible item-stealing bastards known as Kea which steal your MREs and starting weapons.... baaaah I hate them things. Perhaps even strange moods like in DF where a certain colonist (regardless of capabilities) will make a legendary quality item out of whatever (cloth longsword anyone), and become level 19 in that skill and possibly develop an interest/passion for it.
Yeah, animals stealing stuff (and invisible thieves) would be an awesome DF addition to RW.
I need human meat!
Zebra, loner has begun the mysterious construction!
Zebra, Longer has created Trogo, a human meat horses
Quote from: Icarus on April 16, 2017, 09:37:15 PM
I need human meat!
Zebra, loner has begun the mysterious construction!
Zebra, Longer has created Trogo, a human meat horseshoe pin!
Looking forward to more terrain options. But I do hope that in the future you spectacular people can take a good long look at storing things? I mean the racks are kind of meh...I mean something like that should be capable of say storing 6 pistols a side, 4 Survival Rifles, a bunch of shirts, and so on. But they can store one item a side...kind of sad.
It would also be nice to have a better way to consolidate storing chunks. I mean...they can be everywhere...and they impact your pawns. So storing them is a thing. Just my opinion, keep up the good work.
Will doctors have a speed penalty if they work on their own wounds?
Also, will there be any tweaks or modifications to the mental breaking system?
Thrilled to hear that keeping animals will be more useful! One of my favorite things about this game is the variety of wildlife and I'd love to keep tons of tamed animals, but currently they don't feel economical as food sources (except maybe chickens) or particularly useful for combat.
Quote from: Ciel115 on April 17, 2017, 06:36:05 PM
Thrilled to hear that keeping animals will be more useful! One of my favorite things about this game is the variety of wildlife and I'd love to keep tons of tamed animals, but currently they don't feel economical as food sources (except maybe chickens) or particularly useful for combat.
Animals suck in combat. I'm hoping the improvements to "enemy" combat AI Tynan mentioned applies to animals. It probably just means he fixed a lot of RAIDer AI exploits, which
is good. Did he already answer this question of what "enemy" means elsewhere?
Quote from: AnarchyOfAngels on April 17, 2017, 04:43:03 PM
Also, will there be any tweaks or modifications to the mental breaking system?
It would be nice. Current mental breaks trigger ridiculously fast.
I'm excited, to say the least.
I know this update won't include everything I've ever wanted in RimWorld, but that's okay :)
I already know I'll be more than happy to spend another 100+ hours playing the next update, as I have with each update since A6 :D
Quote from: SyberSmoke on April 17, 2017, 03:18:57 PM
But I do hope that in the future you spectacular people can take a good long look at storing things? I mean the racks are kind of meh...I mean something like that should be capable of say storing 6 pistols a side, 4 Survival Rifles, a bunch of shirts, and so on. But they can store one item a side...kind of sad.
Abandon all hope.
Dang. More awsomeness for RimWorld.
Rivers sounds like it could be interesting with some additions. Bridges, fishing, being able to dig your own trench to redirect water into your own man-made river, lake, or moat surrounding your castle/town. Climate being able to affect it would also be kinda neat, from flash floods after rain storms, poisoned water for a few days/weeks after toxic fallout or volcanic ash, frozen rivers in winter or dried up river beds during an intense summer or drought. Water would also be nice to have as a required resource (like food) for colonists, animals, and crops, and more than one way to gather water, like rivers or lakes, well, condensation contraption, desalinization, etc (some would require researching). Maybe localized events near water sources such as mosquito swarm or rampaging alligators so you'd need to weigh up proximity to water based on assorted benefits and dangers.
Changes to animal farming sound nice. I never used animal farming before because it was too complicated for too little reward. It was easier to just hunt animals for meat. Actually I like all the changes to food production Tynan mentioned (crops, hunting, foraging, animal farming).
Those incident quest mission things sound interesting and would give me a reason to actually build caravans and go exploring. Nice work getting something in place that gives players a reason to explore. Even though I've made like one caravan so far this is one of the features I'm looking forward to so I've got a good reason to actually use the caravan and explore the map features.
Self healing has been much needed. When I read it my first thought was self brain surgery, which in RimWorld could honestly possibly happen. You've long been able to remove someones eye and spleen when trying to remove their leg, so why not self brain surgery? However it's more likely as other people have mentioned being self healing of wounds and not surgery. Oh well.
There might not be much focus in A17 cause of all the other features being added/upgraded, but more 'stuff' would be nice. More looks for statues, more floors, more furniture to improve rooms or for certain functions, more production types/trains or whatever its called where you need to produce something to produce something else needed to build something else, more crops and general food options. And more/better storage options would be really nice for more space efficient ways to store food, clothing, weapons, etc. Just having everything dumped on the floor as a stack or a single item takes up heaps of space. Can we get a shoe rack? Gun rack? Texan gun rack? Vacuum storage bags? (would work for clothes or smokeweed) A closet/wardrobe? Good Sammy's bin? Big ass electronic white goods freezer you can put in (or out) of your regular floor freezer? I'd like to see items that we can research or just build straight away (depending on item) that can greatly improve storage space. I'd much prefer to store 500 meals in 5 researchable electronic freezers that take up two floor spaces each and can hold 100 meals each instead of taking up 50 floor spaces for a stack of 10 meals each in my floor freezer (I hope my math was right).
Anyways, rock on Tynan, this sounds like another awsome update. Keep up the fantastic work and I'll be sure to play the heck out of RimWorld (again) when A17 finally arrives.
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 19, 2017, 02:24:06 AM
Quote from: SyberSmoke on April 17, 2017, 03:18:57 PM
But I do hope that in the future you spectacular people can take a good long look at storing things? I mean the racks are kind of meh...I mean something like that should be capable of say storing 6 pistols a side, 4 Survival Rifles, a bunch of shirts, and so on. But they can store one item a side...kind of sad.
Abandon all hope.
Nah, makes sense that in time he would need to look at the storage system. As he adds more and more that we need, things will get more and more messy and cluttered. There comes a point in time where storage needs to be looked at and revamped if only to make the mess manageable.
Can you tell which mods made it to A17 besides Rimkit (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=29043.msg292418#msg292418)? I'm guessing all of ZorbaTHut as well.
Quote from: SyberSmoke on April 19, 2017, 06:28:04 PM
Nah, makes sense that in time he would need to look at the storage system. As he adds more and more that we need, things will get more and more messy and cluttered. There comes a point in time where storage needs to be looked at and revamped if only to make the mess manageable.
He thinks higher storage density would be
bad for the game. The same for workbenches that only consume power when used, opportunistic hauling, and a couple of other things.
Maybe he caves in if 80% players use some kind of storage mod. I can see that happening, considering 25% of poll voters play vanilla. I regularly see Reddit posts like "Hi, I'm installing Rimworld, what mods should I be using". The Hivemind thinks Rimworld should be played modded.
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 20, 2017, 02:33:46 AM
Quote from: SyberSmoke on April 19, 2017, 06:28:04 PM
Nah, makes sense that in time he would need to look at the storage system. As he adds more and more that we need, things will get more and more messy and cluttered. There comes a point in time where storage needs to be looked at and revamped if only to make the mess manageable.
He thinks higher storage density would be bad for the game. The same for workbenches that only consume power when used, opportunistic hauling, and a couple of other things.
Maybe he caves in if 80% players use some kind of storage mod. I can see that happening, considering 25% of poll voters play vanilla. I regularly see Reddit posts like "Hi, I'm installing Rimworld, what mods should I be using". The Hivemind thinks Rimworld should be played modded.
There are already at least 3 mods for stockpiles that provide higher storage density with currently ~90k current subscribers between the three of them. So that's what, 15% of the user base already?
The storage system doesn't need to be high density all the time, but it needs to make sense. The current system has issues because you end up taking a ridiculous amount of space for weapons and apparel. Stockpiles, cabinets, and future containers (like farm silos for vegetables as an example) need to start looking at the volume and weight of items. A 2x1 weapon cabinet/locker should be able to hold a lot more than just 2 pistols, rifles, etc.. Have you ever been inside an armory before? Or even a gun store? In rimworld storing everything from a gun store the size of two classrooms would take at least a thousand cabinets occupying an area of several football fields.
So yes, storage needs to be looked at in a separate update, sooner rather than later preferably.
Good A17 update features though. I hope the modders are quick to adapt.
Think tynan said earlier:
"I have removed some off-topic posts.
This thread is to discuss the update (and it's fine if there's not that much to say); for open-ended suggestions discussion please hit the Suggestions forum. Thanks."
Just savin' you guys some lost effort typing here :P
Quote from: canshow on April 20, 2017, 02:14:05 PM
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 20, 2017, 02:33:46 AM
Quote from: SyberSmoke on April 19, 2017, 06:28:04 PM
Nah, makes sense that in time he would need to look at the storage system. As he adds more and more that we need, things will get more and more messy and cluttered. There comes a point in time where storage needs to be looked at and revamped if only to make the mess manageable.
He thinks higher storage density would be bad for the game. The same for workbenches that only consume power when used, opportunistic hauling, and a couple of other things.
Maybe he caves in if 80% players use some kind of storage mod. I can see that happening, considering 25% of poll voters play vanilla. I regularly see Reddit posts like "Hi, I'm installing Rimworld, what mods should I be using". The Hivemind thinks Rimworld should be played modded.
There are already at least 3 mods for stockpiles that provide higher storage density with currently ~90k current subscribers between the three of them. So that's what, 15% of the user base already?
The storage system doesn't need to be high density all the time, but it needs to make sense. The current system has issues because you end up taking a ridiculous amount of space for weapons and apparel. Stockpiles, cabinets, and future containers (like farm silos for vegetables as an example) need to start looking at the volume and weight of items. A 2x1 weapon cabinet/locker should be able to hold a lot more than just 2 pistols, rifles, etc.. Have you ever been inside an armory before? Or even a gun store? In rimworld storing everything from a gun store the size of two classrooms would take at least a thousand cabinets occupying an area of several football fields.
So yes, storage needs to be looked at in a separate update, sooner rather than later preferably.
Good A17 update features though. I hope the modders are quick to adapt.
It also takes hours to find that one lightsabre that is still humming somewhere.
constant annoyance leads faster to the dark side than anything else.
canshow:
I don't think Rimworld is supposed to make sense. It's firmly space opera, far from science fiction. I think players are supposed to fill in gaps in game logic with their guesses, see patterns and cause-effect chains where there are none.
Without increased storage density, equipment racks have 2 trivial benefits: they negate beauty penalty, and stop outdoor deterioration. The latter is not a problem anymore because 'roof build area' made roofed space trivial to get. Beauty penalty is not a big deal anyway with minimum planning. Those leathers or meat are going to take space somewhere anyway, you may as well make the storage room 5 tiles bigger instead of the workshop.
Don't have high expectations and Rimworld won't disappoint you.
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 20, 2017, 05:31:06 PM
Don't have high expectations and Rimworld won't disappoint you.
(http://i.imgur.com/kGIZ98Z.png)
I think we should address Shinzy's mental health here. Are you okay, Shinzy? Why the low expectations? Why are you feeling bad? Why are you holding a weapon? Is it because of the bionic bodyparts? Did Tynan mistreat you? You can talk to us - we're here for you.
Offtopic
This forum needs to be updated, i want to spam +1 to Shinzy's post ^
while everyone else are having their mental break (berserk, binge, wander, etc..)
shinzy and borsuk would be like :
it's hakuna matata boyos!
I know there was an update posted on February 8th of a look at how memory is handled. "We're also doing a review of how memory is handled, to reduce memory waste that leads to sub-optimal performance or out-of-memory crashes." Will this help people who use quite a few mods to allow for more memory allocation? Great work as always! Thank you for the updates.
Quote from: Tynan on April 10, 2017, 08:20:16 PM
Quote from: Edixo on April 10, 2017, 07:57:27 PM
Does this mean that there will be rivers on the individual maps, and that we can build bridges and such?
Rivers will be in the local maps, yes.
You can't build bridges at the moment; considering that. The rivers are fordable at many places thought.
Could we possible see a new form of power generation with rivers such as watermills that power a generator, dam turbine, etc?
Quote from: canshow on April 20, 2017, 02:14:05 PM
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 20, 2017, 02:33:46 AM
He thinks higher storage density would be bad for the game. The same for workbenches that only consume power when used, opportunistic hauling, and a couple of other things.
Maybe he caves in if 80% players use some kind of storage mod. I can see that happening, considering 25% of poll voters play vanilla. I regularly see Reddit posts like "Hi, I'm installing Rimworld, what mods should I be using". The Hivemind thinks Rimworld should be played modded.
There are already at least 3 mods for stockpiles that provide higher storage density with currently ~90k current subscribers between the three of them. So that's what, 15% of the user base already?
The storage system doesn't need to be high density all the time, but it needs to make sense. The current system has issues because you end up taking a ridiculous amount of space for weapons and apparel. Stockpiles, cabinets, and future containers (like farm silos for vegetables as an example) need to start looking at the volume and weight of items. A 2x1 weapon cabinet/locker should be able to hold a lot more than just 2 pistols, rifles, etc.. Have you ever been inside an armory before? Or even a gun store? In rimworld storing everything from a gun store the size of two classrooms would take at least a thousand cabinets occupying an area of several football fields.
So yes, storage needs to be looked at in a separate update, sooner rather than later preferably.
Good A17 update features though. I hope the modders are quick to adapt.
Condensing down certain things is a necessary process. I mean hell just look at Chunks, the things that do not even stack. One chunk that you need to make twenty blocks take up one square. To make five hundred blocks, you need a five by five area or twenty five squares. But stone blocks are a constantly used item...so you need even more.
A lot of things should have some form of storage. Even if say chunk storage is a nine by nine think you build. allowing it to hold a single type of stone but a fair amount of it. Weapons are the same, we get so many as well as clothing. Even with storage mods (I use one) my storage capacity gets overwhelmed easily. It is a problem because it appears in the far future the people have forgotten what lockers, chests, and hangers are used for.
PLEASE oh great Tynan (gets down and prostrates before his feet) we need something better then having our food in the dirt and shelves that...well...kind of suck. Please kind sir (frantic bowing) we desire a better way to store things.
I can understand not wanting quantum storage for balance sake, but when I eventually end up with more space used for storage than I have devoted to living space, I think it has gone a bit too far. I've got one room the size of an impressive bedroom, completely filled with little piles of silver on the floor. My leather storage has completely overflowed my butcher/tailor hall and I've had to create an overflow warehouse in my steel mine.
Can I please have some shelves?
Quote from: khearn on April 25, 2017, 04:30:28 PM
I can understand not wanting quantum storage for balance sake, but when I eventually end up with more space used for storage than I have devoted to living space, I think it has gone a bit too far. I've got one room the size of an impressive bedroom, completely filled with little piles of silver on the floor. My leather storage has completely overflowed my butcher/tailor hall and I've had to create an overflow warehouse in my steel mine.
Can I please have some shelves?
I would also like to see shelves or a better less space consuming form of storage
Quote from: khearn on April 25, 2017, 04:30:28 PM
I can understand not wanting quantum storage for balance sake, but when I eventually end up with more space used for storage than I have devoted to living space, I think it has gone a bit too far. I've got one room the size of an impressive bedroom, completely filled with little piles of silver on the floor. My leather storage has completely overflowed my butcher/tailor hall and I've had to create an overflow warehouse in my steel mine.
Can I please have some shelves?
This indicates a problem in the late-game economy. There is no reason you should be storing 20,000 silver in this game. I need to rebalance the economy and/or add late-game money sinks and challenges.
looks like a lot of cool stuff is coming =D scenario events are going to get a lot more interesting.
.....
on the topic of shelves, or some kind of method storing, I wouldn't mind it. I always have more storage space then I do living spaces as well
.....
now this may be a bit off topic, but will we ever see raids using animals? (maybe a new type of raid?) it would be terrifying to see raiders with pet bears charging in.
Quote from: Tynan on April 25, 2017, 05:36:01 PM
Quote from: khearn on April 25, 2017, 04:30:28 PM
I can understand not wanting quantum storage for balance sake, but when I eventually end up with more space used for storage than I have devoted to living space, I think it has gone a bit too far. I've got one room the size of an impressive bedroom, completely filled with little piles of silver on the floor. My leather storage has completely overflowed my butcher/tailor hall and I've had to create an overflow warehouse in my steel mine.
Can I please have some shelves?
This indicates a problem in the late-game economy. There is no reason you should be storing 20,000 silver in this game. I need to rebalance the economy and/or add late-game money sinks and challenges.
Pirate ransoms?
Quote from: Tynan on April 25, 2017, 05:36:01 PM
This indicates a problem in the late-game economy. There is no reason you should be storing 20,000 silver in this game. I need to rebalance the economy and/or add late-game money sinks and challenges.
Hmmm.... i'm playing the game wrong then, i have nearly 2 M cash Dx
Will you include that balance patch in A17 or should we expect it for another iteration?
And I'll ask again:
Quote from: faltonico on April 19, 2017, 10:18:46 PM
Can you tell which mods made it to A17 besides Rimkit (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=29043.msg292418#msg292418)? I'm guessing all of ZorbaTHut as well.
Quote from: Tynan on April 25, 2017, 05:36:01 PM
Quote from: khearn on April 25, 2017, 04:30:28 PM
I eventually end up with more space used for storage than I have devoted to living space, I think it has gone a bit too far. I've got one room the size of an impressive bedroom, completely filled with little piles of silver on the floor. My leather storage has completely overflowed my butcher/tailor hall and I've had to create an overflow warehouse in my steel mine.
This indicates a problem in the late-game economy. There is no reason you should be storing 20,000 silver in this game. I need to rebalance the economy and/or add late-game money sinks and challenges.
This reminds me of an aspect of every RPG ever made. The world designers throw little cookies around each corner to incentivize exploration of their beautiful work. Then the players become scavenger rats, feeling compelled to search for and pick up every little thing just in case they might need it later, or for another spin on the RNG wheel.
The FPS-RPG Borderlands poked fun at this compulsion by making it possible but unnecessary to rummage through trash cans and piles of monster dung for little gamble prizes.
This update is summed up into two words and a number: King Quest V
It's coming back in a more spectacular way!!!!
Quote from: AngleWyrm on April 25, 2017, 07:14:24 PM
Quote from: Tynan on April 25, 2017, 05:36:01 PM
... I need to rebalance the economy and/or add late-game money sinks and challenges.
This reminds me of an aspect of every RPG ever made. The world designers throw little cookies around each corner to incentivize exploration of their beautiful work. Then the players become scavenger rats, feeling compelled to search for and pick up every little thing just in case they might need it later, or for another spin on the RNG wheel.
The FPS-RPG Borderlands poked fun at this compulsion by making it possible but unnecessary to rummage through trash cans and piles of monster dung for little gamble prizes.
First of all, I always like pointless, but fun or slightly useful late game stuff to burn money on. Lots of good examples of that in Stardew Valley. It gives you a reason to keep playing and it's optional. Secondly, who told you that Borderlands trivia? I don't believe Gearbox made toilets, dumpsters, and feces lootable containers because they were trying to make a point ::) They did it because it makes sense in the Borderlands universe/setting and fits with the other juvenile humor. And wtf is "little gamble prizes"? PM me, cuz it's off topic.
TL;DR Please Tynan, do "add late-game money sinks and challenges". Purely decorative crap would be nice :)
(https://s6.postimg.org/6qhqfuyfl/Demon.png) | Quote from: mabor0shi on April 25, 2017, 09:25:34 PM
...Who told you that Borderlands trivia? I don't believe Gearbox made toilets, dumpsters, and feces lootable containers because they were trying to make a point ::) They did it because it makes sense in the Borderlands universe/setting and fits with the other juvenile humor. And wtf is "little gamble prizes"? PM me, cuz it's off topic.
Hostility and denial.
Some people never reached that conclusion and likely spent their days on Pandora sifting through the refuse.
|
Quote from: Tynan on April 25, 2017, 05:36:01 PM
This indicates a problem in the late-game economy. There is no reason you should be storing 20,000 silver in this game. I need to rebalance the economy and/or add late-game money sinks and challenges.
It'll be an interesting way to see how you tackle this, I quite like the sight of having masses of silver stored away in your storage room :P
My vanilla colony currently sits at something like 30k silver 7 years in xD
I think the problem of wealth amassing is because any viable colony is self-sufficient; you rarely need anything that you can't produce yourself. Even the things you can't produce yourself are luxuries, not necessities.
Now, I'm not suggesting that more things become impossible, or even harder, to produce. It just needs to be financially viable to buy things instead of making them yourself. Plus, most of the time when I do want something specific, I can't find a Tedder that's selling it (specific body parts, specific, hard-to-acquire materials, etc)
Hell, half the time I trade is to get rid of stuff, rather than to get anything.
I'd like to reiterate the fact that making it impossible or harder for colonies to be self-sufficient is not a good solution to the problem of:
"People shouldn't be accumulating that much wealth in this game."
*Nevermind the fact that you can find giant veins of silver in mountainous areas, which can almost instantly make you filthy rich.
I already have ill feelings towards the idea that certain* objects shouldn't be producible by players and should have to be bought through trade.
*I understand not being able to produce things like psychic shock lances and other mechanoid loot
*I don't understand not being able to produce neutroamine or prosthetics/bionics
Trade is an amazing game mechanic which deserves appreciation. People should be able to benefit from it, at a cost, and use it as a tool to access things they can't get in their native biome/region. But, it shouldn't be forced on people as a necessary part of the game, even on the easiest settings. And that's another thing to take into account.
What difficulty are you balancing your ideas around? Should people playing on lower difficulties be accumulating this much wealth? If not, why? If so, what solutions are you willing to consider?
Anyways, I think the idea of shelving is interesting but unnecessary. No matter how you think about it, stuff takes up space. With enough stuff, you're going to run into real-estate issues; even with shelving. Increasing stack sizes and making more things stackable is a decent fix, in my opinion. I find apparel to be incredibly space hungry. You can't stack clothing, and it's necessary to keep a good amount of it around as it deteriorates over time.
If being to wealthy late-game is becoming a problem why don't we just get more events that target wealth; some ideas would be, raiders disguised as a trade caravan, raiders that try to do as much damage as possible, raiders that aim straight for stock piles.
Will there be a way to delete abandoned bases, at least with dev tools?
Quote from: O Negative on April 26, 2017, 03:49:26 PM
I'd like to reiterate the fact that making it impossible or harder for colonies to be self-sufficient is not a good solution to the problem of:
"People shouldn't be accumulating that much wealth in this game."
*Nevermind the fact that you can find giant veins of silver in mountainous areas, which can almost instantly make you filthy rich.
The only reason making it impossible for colonies to be self-sufficient is a poor solution is because we have no control over trade relationships. If we could establish reliable trade relationships for the specific items the colony needs, and the price for those items made sense in terms of needing to produce something in surplus of what the colony needs in order to trade for it, then it would be a really good game mechanic.
I have to admit, I'm one of those players that *loves* to be totally self-sufficient, but I recognize that it pretty much always leads to an empty late game. What is there to do if you reach the point that your colony no longer needs anything or has anything to work towards? (Besides start a new colony, of course.)
Quote from: Aerial on April 27, 2017, 12:27:34 PM
The only reason making it impossible for colonies to be self-sufficient is a poor solution is because we have no control over trade relationships. If we could establish reliable trade relationships for the specific items the colony needs, and the price for those items made sense in terms of needing to produce something in surplus of what the colony needs in order to trade for it, then it would be a really good game mechanic.
I have to admit, I'm one of those players that *loves* to be totally self-sufficient, but I recognize that it pretty much always leads to an empty late game. What is there to do if you reach the point that your colony no longer needs anything or has anything to work towards? (Besides start a new colony, of course.)
I think that's something a lot of games and developers struggle with. The late game tends to be a drag if the player manages to set things up the right way. I agree with your points on trade. The trade system has already made huge strides compared to when it was first implemented. Yet, there's still so much potential! As is true with many of the game's mechanics. I just prefer to see trade as a way of making things easier on yourself (with some risk) as opposed to something that's absolutely necessary. That's all :)
In the past, I've advocated for a lot of mechanics that would make sense for an isolated colony (Pre A16). Now that the whole globe is here for the taking, I'm super stoked for other worldwide mechanics.
Quote from: Tynan on April 25, 2017, 05:36:01 PM
This indicates a problem in the late-game economy. There is no reason you should be storing 20,000 silver in this game. I need to rebalance the economy and/or add late-game money sinks and challenges.
Storing silver is really not a big problem, because u can store silver in statues - 6.5k just only for 4 squares. :P
But to guarantee colony survivability we need to build ridiculously big food freezers just to survive somehow thru storytellers trolling like "toxic fallout for months, solar flare, blight, another solar flare and plague hits, of course, your farmers/doctors". So im really want a good way to store/organize at least food. Of course improvements in storing clothes/weapons also would be nice. ::)
Quote from: Tynan link=topic=31683.msg326990#msg326990
This indicates a problem in the late-game economy./quote]
No, it indicates that bases get exceedingly unmanageable the longer you survive. Not everyone plays with maximum challenge in mind. Large/old bases can become a mess because the game is designed with quick death in mind. Maybe it needs to account for not every colony dying within a couple of years.
I assume you'll be adding a thirst system soon as you have now created rivers?
Quote from: Bakar on May 01, 2017, 08:43:42 AM
I assume you'll be adding a thirst system soon as you have now created rivers?
I think Tynan has already stated that he won't be adding thirst to RimWorld because he wants a balance between realism, and actual gameplay enjoyability - but I'm not 100% sure if I'm right on that. However, I'm sure a modder would be up to the task.
Quote from: Tynan on April 11, 2017, 05:48:42 PM
Quote from: Sirportalez on April 11, 2017, 05:38:08 PM
Will there be some balancing to plant farming as well?
Yes, the crop cycle is longer. Longer growing times, bigger harvests to match.
Hunting should also be a bit harder now since animals flee.
However, foraging is now more viable since wild plants spawn differently and yield different amounts of food when harvested.
And as noted, raising meat animals is more viable.
Overall I've been trying to make all the food sources viable, and distinct. Crops are efficient but take time to come to fruition, hunting is faster but riskier, foraging works consistently but is a bit slow and you'll denude the local area pretty fast, meat animal raising is tougher than crops but you get the other benefits from animals, and meat allows making nice meals. And of course all this varies by biome and situation.
Oh oh! Now my useless Colonist have a more harder Time to hit their Target. Do you plan to implent a System where I can choose a targeting range for my colonists? They most of the time try to hunt a squirrel on max range with their pistol which is very inefficient.
man i love the work of you guys you're awesome that game is very good in all terms of quality <3
I'd like to second Phate777's suggestion of a way to choose targeting range for hunters. It's really annoying to have someone move to a range where he/she can barely hit the broad side of a barn and waste a bunch of time missing what should be an easy target.
I had an extreme case recently when my main hunter was a night owl. So she'd go out hunting at night and because the animals were all laying down (and in the dark, if that matters), she'd end up with hit chance below 3% most of the time. I had to constantly draft her, march her up to right next to the sleeping deer and tell her to shoot it with a 100% chance. Otherwise she'd spend all night trying to kill one sleeping animal.
Ok, maybe I wouldn't want her right next to something dangerous, but for mostly harmless stuff that almost never fights back, there's no point in being at extreme range. My current hunter has a pet elephant that accompanies him on hunting/taming trips, so I don't worry too much about animals that fight back. Jumbo's got his back, so I want him to get fairly close to get the job done quickly.
If animals are going to run away now, I definitely want my hunters to get closer before taking the first shot, or all they'll do is wound the animal and watch it run away. They will need to get close enough that they can take follow-up shots at a fleeing animal without it going out of range immediately, and with a reasonable chance to hit it.
I really hope that this update actually works with modders giving a "beta" time or sometime ahead, maybe include some integration of "esential mods" like a dog said, hospitality, camping/set up.
If u mean rivers perhaps there is any idea to add boats, fishing sea life or it's just another lackcuster update and you plan to leave all the actual content for the mod scene? ... like the previous update if u are going to add maps/caravans without adding tools to play with those new features then is a lazy update.
Game is great and all but no one cant deny that is mod dependant and the mods should add an extra layer of deep not the whole deep. just saying...
Quote from: klun on May 02, 2017, 05:22:17 PM
Game is great and all but no one cant deny that is mod dependant and the mods should add an extra layer of deep not the whole deep. just saying...
I don't find the game mod dependant at all. I've been playing since the pre-steam release without any mods and even in alpha I find RimWorld more entertaining than most games.
Statistically, the majority of RW players don't use any mods. They're just not the ones who talk online, so we don't hear from them here much.
I had almost 250 hours under my belt before i ever even looked at mods, so id say there is more then enough content now that even without A17 most players should be good. The mods are just like toppings for a bowl of ice cream, making a great thing even better
Quote from: ja7833 on May 02, 2017, 08:20:36 PM
Quote from: klun on May 02, 2017, 05:22:17 PM
Game is great and all but no one cant deny that is mod dependant and the mods should add an extra layer of deep not the whole deep. just saying...
I don't find the game mod dependant at all. I've been playing since the pre-steam release without any mods and even in alpha I find RimWorld more entertaining than most games.
Good to know that some people can enjoy the game without mods.
For me the game it's a solid idea but needs a long road ahead, so the mods are the only reason I haven't refund it
for example playing and receiving traders and guest without any tool to interact or achieve something like hospitality mod for example or exploring the map and send caravans without being able to hunt/camp or do anything on the way other than pack your 900 pieces of food for a 4 day trip
Quote from: mattp84 on May 02, 2017, 09:03:05 PM
I had almost 250 hours under my belt before i ever even looked at mods, so id say there is more then enough content now that even without A17 most players should be good. The mods are just like toppings for a bowl of ice cream, making a great thing even better
I had almost the exact same experience and I agree. After hundreds of hours of vanilla RW, I started using tons of mods, which improved
my RW experience
for me. I even made one myself & attempted/failed to make several others. Some mods start to feel essential after a while, but none of them are. They don't
need to be in vanilla RW, because they exist in an
optional form. I love customization and options, which is what mods are for. Tynan has
his ideal RW and we each have
our ideal RW.
P.S. Thanks for having so many XMLs, Tynan. It makes this game much easier to mod than most.
Quote from: klun on May 02, 2017, 10:25:16 PM
for example playing and receiving traders and guest without any tool to interact or achieve something like hospitality mod for example or exploring the map and send caravans without being able to hunt/camp or do anything on the way other than pack your 900 pieces of food for a 4 day trip
Hospitality is the only mod I've found that feels essential, like it's filling in a true hole in the vanilla game. I'd forgotten how weird it is not to be able to interact with visitors. They just... hang around for a while and then leave. It doesn't matter if I ignore them. In fact, when there's no trader I can't do anything but ignore them, and eventually they leave. The vanilla mechanic just feels incomplete.
Quote from: AngleWyrm on April 11, 2017, 12:10:44 PM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/ba/76/2b/ba762bfbf9db05a8b8e61eb06e4aa6ec.jpg) | Quote from: Tynan on April 11, 2017, 04:39:55 AM
- This thread is for discussing the blog post (https://ludeon.com/blog/2017/04/new-content-is-in-progress-for-alpha-17/)
- This thread is to discuss the update
- For open-ended suggestions discussion please hit the Suggestions forum (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?board=6.0)
Since open-ended discussion has been forbidden, I will make this a statement of facts not to be argued with. As a side-note, The word discussion doesn't seem to be clearly defined.
Discussion of blog post on A17 economics
Notice the complete lack of open-ended discussion opportunity: This is a bug report on the conceptual model of currency in Rimworld A17.
Money is created and destroyed by selling it into service and buying it back.
If I buy ten steel from a faction, then I have also created a debt to that faction for ten steel. Money is merely the token that represents that credit for ten steel, and at any time they may come and give me that token demanding that ten steel. Then I am bound to give them ten steel or it's equivalent in merchandise in exchange for the token. Which I may then destroy if that is my wish.
But if I tell them sorry I don't honor my promises so here's 8 steal instead, then it becomes a military action instead of a political one, and thus the phrase heads are going to roll.
On the topic of constructive criticism and censorship of input, do take care that self-defense doesn't create tunnel vision.
|
Silver or gold based economies woks differently from you're thypical Fiat currency model
There is no currency in rimworld. Values are expressed in terms of units of silver, but it's possible to have a trading session with no silver changing hands at all. And there are no debts created by trading. If I buy ten steel from a faction, I give them other goods (possibly including silver, but possibly not) in exchange. No debt is created. They do not gain any right to come back at a later time and demand ten steel from me, because I have given them no token saying they can. I just gave them a few pair of shoddy ratskin pants I pulled off some dead guys.
I will, however, agree that if they come back insisting that I take those pants pack, it's an act of war.
AngleWyrm - this reasoning is why RimWorld doesn't include any fiat currency model ("dollars" or whatever). There is no authority to enforce it.
So, like ancient peoples, in RimWorld you trade using precious metal (silver) as a currency. The metal is not a token and it doesn't represent a promise. It doesn't represent anything. It is silver and it has intrinsic value.
So just add gold for trading then, please. ;)
Quote from: Sirportalez on May 03, 2017, 06:14:47 PM
So just add gold for trading then, please. ;)
You can trade with gold as easily as you can trade with silver, but it's not a common thing because gold is rare. And gold is too valuable for small/accurate transactions (also the reason ancient people only used it for large transactions, while they used silver/copper in daily life).
So add copper to the game; It's value would be possibly on-par with iron, but it's better for certain types of electronics (conduits, for sure) and it's another item, like silver, that is often traded in bulk.
Then let us research coin-minting...
then Empire building...... (since we have roads, we're half-way there already)
Energy shield and shotgun it's all new content a17 lol?
Wouldn it be cool, ff there would be horses for the caravans? and maybe wagons you can build, to transport more goods at one time.
Wagons have the disadvantage of only working on roads or flat open terrain. We have roads now, but rimworld doesn't really model forests at the world level. Well, unless we assume all Boreal/Temperate biomes are heavily forested.
I like the note about this game getting large enough that every addition becomes more complex to integrate. I can appreciate that aspect and am quite thankful for the increased trouble you face as you implement these changes for us.
thanks for this wonderful, wacky world!
The fact that the game is getting more complex with each addition makes me worried that one of these Alphas, Tynan's gonna have to just re-write the whole code of the game.
Quote from: Tynan on May 03, 2017, 05:33:12 PM
So, like ancient peoples, in RimWorld you trade using precious metal (silver) as a currency. The metal is not a token and it doesn't represent a promise. It doesn't represent anything. It is silver and it has intrinsic value.
Funny how we humans apply such value to a seemingly random raw material.
Quote from: SurrealSadi on May 05, 2017, 03:44:24 AM
The fact that the game is getting more complex with each addition makes me worried that one of these Alphas, Tynan's gonna have to just re-write the whole code of the game.
And that's when we will get z-levels
Quote from: Sunfang on May 06, 2017, 06:14:34 AM
Quote from: SurrealSadi on May 05, 2017, 03:44:24 AM
The fact that the game is getting more complex with each addition makes me worried that one of these Alphas, Tynan's gonna have to just re-write the whole code of the game.
And that's when we will get z-levels
More like, that's when we will get Rimworld 2, lol.
Quote from: ShadowTani on May 08, 2017, 09:23:42 AM
Quote from: Sunfang on May 06, 2017, 06:14:34 AM
Quote from: SurrealSadi on May 05, 2017, 03:44:24 AM
The fact that the game is getting more complex with each addition makes me worried that one of these Alphas, Tynan's gonna have to just re-write the whole code of the game.
And that's when we will get z-levels
More like, that's when we will get Rimworld 2, lol.
Rimworld 2: The Z-levelening
now with multiplayer and babies
Quote from: Shinzy on May 08, 2017, 10:02:57 AM
Rimworld 2: The Z-levelening
now with multiplayer and babies
(https://i.imgur.com/HSbkeso.png)
Is it just me whose checking both the forum and blog religiously for more information on this update? Ah well, when it's ready, it's ready. Cheers Tynan for making such an amazing and addictive game, and for actually listening to the community, it's pretty rare to find such a talented developer (and team), who actually care about, and listen to, their fanbase.
Very welcome. Day-by-day updates are posted on the other thread, so you can read what's being added in real time.
I'll lock this now since there's another thread on A17: https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=32072.0 (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=32072.0)