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RimWorld => General Discussion => Topic started by: The Man with No Name on April 13, 2017, 11:29:24 PM

Title: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: The Man with No Name on April 13, 2017, 11:29:24 PM
I really hate needless friendly fire deaths in this game. I've had a couple in my current game.

The first was in about the first raid. The raiders were fleeing and I ordered three or four colonists to melee attack a wounded enemy who was hobbling away, and moved another guy out of the way. The guy I moved out of the way then turned around and shot this woman who'd joined my colony point blank and killed her instantly.

Then in my current game, a woman I'd spent ages in recruiting finally joined my gang. She was making her first pair of pants and went berserk. I moved another nearby colonist out of the way, but not far enough, as she instantly turned around and shot the berserker in the head, giving a permanent brain damage injury, which means I'm going to have to harvest her organs and kill her.

I guess ultimately it's my error for not switching off auto-fire and not being super-careful enough. I wish there was a better way of trying to avoid these things.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: b0rsuk on April 14, 2017, 01:12:04 AM
There is a sure way to remove friendly fire from your colony. Make your colony all melee. You can supplement it with war beasts to catch some bullets for you.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Greep on April 14, 2017, 02:57:33 AM
You could always wear energy shields while not in battle.  That's what I do with my doomsdayers, since an accident with them would be pretty bad news.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: b0rsuk on April 14, 2017, 05:03:35 AM
I don't understand - people not in battle don't attack, unless you set them to crossed swords. I think even when drafted rocket launchers have a special case and must be manually ordered to fire.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Shurp on April 14, 2017, 07:15:52 AM
It's the usual cleanup problem.  The enemy is retreating, so you start undrafting selected pawns and tell them to pick up stuff and order other pawns to kill the survivors...

...but you forgot about Engie standing over there with a minigun who decides to shoot at some of the retreating pirates...

It'd be nice if pawns had a "don't shoot if a friendly pawn's head is in the way" setting.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: eadras on April 14, 2017, 07:55:47 AM
A16 added a "hold fire" button between the draft pawn and manual attack buttons.  This button is your friend.  I hear you though, friendly fire accidents are very frustrating.  If you aren't the type of player who micromanages combat frame by frame, it happens all too often.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: The Man with No Name on April 14, 2017, 10:24:00 AM
How about a rule something like that colonists will hold fire if a colonist, or berserk colonist, has a chance of getting shot. This could be overriden my manually ordering the colonist to shoot after this has been taken into account.

So a colonist is shooting at an enemy. Another colonist moves into a position where they might be shot. The shooter would suspend firing at the target while there was a chance of shooting the friendly pawn. To continue to fire at the target, and risk shooting the friendly, would require being on manual control and re-ordering shooting at the target.

I think something like this should be added as needless friendly fire deaths add a cloud over one's game.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: The Man with No Name on April 14, 2017, 12:58:49 PM
For me, finding a solution to this issue is No. 1 priority on the list of fixes and improvements to the game.

So, to recap, it could go something like this...

A colonist will not fire their weapon/will stop firing in the following circumstances:

a) At a hostile pawn if there is a chance of shooting a friendly colonist.

b) At a friendly pawn that has gone berserk.

c) At a prisoner who has gone berserk or is escaping.

In such circumstances, the pawn, if on automatic control, would select another available target to shoot at. If there were no other available targets, the pawn would hold its position and cease firing. The pawn's status would read as "Holding fire" to indicate that it would be shooting, but has stopped for one of the reasons listed above.

The human could make a conscious decision to shoot at the target by ordering a pawn to fire at the target, whether in automatic mode or manual mode.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Greep on April 14, 2017, 02:03:25 PM
I don't understand - people not in battle don't attack, unless you set them to crossed swords. I think even when drafted rocket launchers have a special case and must be manually ordered to fire.

Right, but you might draft them and forget to unclick the autofire for domestic cases.  That's why the energy shield.  As for the special case, I haven't been too keen to find out lol.  I'll be sure to try it when doing mod testing in godmode though xD
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Ukas on April 15, 2017, 04:31:46 AM
Just accept all casualties and move on. Friendly fire has, and will always be a part of combat.

Sometimes these incidents make great stories, well in a sad but weirdly fun way. Like, one female colonist was "accidently" shot in the head by his husband during a fight against manhunter pack. She had cheated the guy with another colonist. The bullet caused a brain damage, the new boyfriend lost interest soon and moved on to chase another married woman - dirty ghoat was like 73 yrs old hahaha, I loved that guy. Anyway, the jealous and angry husband got to keep his wife after all. Brain damaged and unhappy wife, but I guess he was the type who felt no love, but couldn't just let go lol.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: The Man with No Name on April 15, 2017, 10:09:38 AM
The role of automatization is to reduce micro-management by the human player - so to predict what the human player would do in order to disencumber him/her from having to do it himself/herself.

In the cases I listed above, the automatization is doing the opposite of what the human would intend to and is therefore not working as intended in these circumstances.

Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Wex on April 15, 2017, 10:18:02 AM
A16 added a "hold fire" button between the draft pawn and manual attack buttons.  This button is your friend.  I hear you though, friendly fire accidents are very frustrating.  If you aren't the type of player who micromanages combat frame by frame, it happens all too often.

Wait, there's another way of doing combat in this game?
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: The Man with No Name on April 15, 2017, 10:22:12 AM
I mean it's ridiculously stupid. A colonist will automatically open fire through another friendly colonist at the other end of a one-square wide corridor, when the chances of hitting the friendly pawn are close to 100% and the chances of hitting the hostile target close to 0%.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: AngleWyrm on April 15, 2017, 03:36:31 PM
It's the usual cleanup problem.  The enemy is retreating, so you start undrafting selected pawns and tell them to pick up stuff and order other pawns to kill the survivors...

...but you forgot about Engie standing over there with a minigun who decides to shoot at some of the retreating pirates...

It'd be nice if pawns had a "don't shoot if a friendly pawn's head is in the way" setting.

I've tried the Achtung! mod which micro-manages combat, but it slows my system to a crawl. Has anyone with a top-shelf PC seen less friendly-fire damage from it?
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: keylocke on April 16, 2017, 03:17:50 AM
Just accept all casualties and move on. Friendly fire has, and will always be a part of combat.

Sometimes these incidents make great stories, well in a sad but weirdly fun way. Like, one female colonist was "accidently" shot in the head by his husband during a fight against manhunter pack. She had cheated the guy with another colonist. The bullet caused a brain damage, the new boyfriend lost interest soon and moved on to chase another married woman - dirty ghoat was like 73 yrs old hahaha, I loved that guy. Anyway, the jealous and angry husband got to keep his wife after all. Brain damaged and unhappy wife, but I guess he was the type who felt no love, but couldn't just let go lol.

i agree with this dude, just roll with it coz friendly fire generates "drama" and it does make sense having it. accidental or not.

coz if you prevent your colonist from getting friendly fire, then how can you shoot one of your colonists deliberately?

friendly fire also works well against your enemies, since they themselves are prone to friendly firing their own comrades. it just balances things out.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: eadras on April 16, 2017, 09:51:02 AM
A16 added a "hold fire" button between the draft pawn and manual attack buttons.  This button is your friend.  I hear you though, friendly fire accidents are very frustrating.  If you aren't the type of player who micromanages combat frame by frame, it happens all too often.

Wait, there's another way of doing combat in this game?
There's the way certain youtubers (and I suspect many others) do Rimworld combat.  Mass draft colonists and have them stand in a clump, fast forward through the battle and fail to notice that your pawns are getting limbs blasted off by friendly fire.  Then continue to fast forward through triage, failing to tend to your colonists or clean the hospital, then wondering why they are dying of infection a few days later.   ;)
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: The Man with No Name on April 19, 2017, 01:27:49 PM
Here's a couple of examples. Not the worst I've seen, but I have screenshots of them.

An attack by 27 tribespeople has penetrated the base, and the raiders are attacking down the corridor in the top right, while three colonists and a muffalo defend the one square-wide door to the corridor.

I summon a couple of colonists from elsewhere as reinforcements.

First, Maymay arrives on the left and immediately opens fire with her shotgun at the doorway, with no concern for the four colonists who are much more likely to get hit.

(http://i.imgur.com/M8KRe0L.jpg)

Then Ali arrives in the bottom right and immediately opens fire with her Heavy SMG at the doorway.

(http://i.imgur.com/zheKe5t.jpg)

I'm not for removing friendly fire deaths from the game, just eliminating or minimizing the really stupid instances that are completely unrealistic, have major irreversible negative consequences and that, in my opinion, spoil the game in a big way.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: SpaceDorf on April 19, 2017, 02:27:24 PM
A16 added a "hold fire" button between the draft pawn and manual attack buttons.  This button is your friend.  I hear you though, friendly fire accidents are very frustrating.  If you aren't the type of player who micromanages combat frame by frame, it happens all too often.

Wait, there's another way of doing combat in this game?


Yeah, two other ways.
Killbox and Losing .. and the OP just described why.

Those accidents were player faults.

These Situations are what the Hold Fire Option was made.

Go there. Don't Shoot.

Ali at least was placed in cover.
Had MayMay been placed elsewhere, like the doorway of the smoking lounge she would never had a line of fire in the first place.
The same goes for Ali.
One step to the right, in the doorway and nothing would have happened.

Then a ordered retreat.

Grill would stay behind Susi,
Eridani in the doorway beneath the hospital
and Phytes in the dining room.

This would leave Grill three lines of retreat once Susi is dead and split the Tribals, while everybody still had a clean line of fire .. ..


Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: The Man with No Name on April 19, 2017, 03:36:29 PM
When I ordered Maymay and Ali to those locations, the fighting was further up the corridor and the other colonists had just retreated to where they were, so enemies were well out of view.

Rimworld is an immersive story that can take hundreds of hours of time investment in a single game. These really stupid non sequitur friendly fire incidents are so completely implausible that they break the magic and the storytelling.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: The Man with No Name on April 20, 2017, 04:06:05 PM
I've also noticed that sometimes colonists will continue to open fire even after they have been manually told to hold fire.

Here is a screenshot. I had ordered Pig, highlighted, to stop firing. A few seconds later, I noticed she was shooting her LMG and so I checked the Allow Firing status which was switched off, as shown.

(http://i.imgur.com/ydjYjgs.jpg)
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: cultist on April 21, 2017, 10:30:05 AM
If you take away the need for tactical placement, there's not much player involvement in combat at all. That will definitely reduce the only viable defence to killbox, which just isn't that fun. Indoors fighting is a mess, avoid it at all cost unless you design your base for it. Sun Tzu said it better, but essentially your best advantage is choosing the battleground.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Britnoth on April 21, 2017, 12:19:05 PM
For me, finding a solution to this issue is No. 1 priority on the list of fixes and improvements to the game.

This is not an issue. This is a game feature. You may as well say "finding a solution to having all these raiders keep showing trying to kill me is the number one thing needing fixed"

 8)
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: The Man with No Name on April 21, 2017, 12:33:14 PM

This is not an issue. This is a game feature. You may as well say "finding a solution to having all these raiders keep showing trying to kill me is the number one thing needing fixed"

There's no equivalence there whatsoever. Raiders trying to attack one's base for material gain is entirely plausible. A colonist randomly shooting another colonist in the head and killing them for no reason is entirely implausible. Suggesting that this is a "game feature" is utterly ludicrous.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: khearn on April 21, 2017, 12:55:59 PM
Friendly fire is extremely plausible. It happens on battlefields a lot. Even experienced troops struggle with maintaining good fire discipline, and we're mostly dealing with frightened civilians here. People tend to see a bad guy and shoot, without paying much attention to what is close to their target.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: The Man with No Name on April 21, 2017, 01:45:35 PM
I have nothing against the concept of having friendly fire deaths in the game, and would vote against their outright removal from the game. As long as I can look at such situations and say "that could have happened", then I'm okay with it.

For example, a colonist is being melee attacked by a couple of hostiles. Shooting at the hostiles, at the risk of a friendly fire death, is reasonable in this situation, although I would prefer for the colonists not to automatically fire and for it to be a conscious decision by the player.

If four colonists are melee attacking a wounded enemy and there's someone with a gun some distance away, plus another colonist directly in the line of fire between them, then for that colonist to open fire and kill a friendly is just stupid. You can say that a colonist got frightened and opened fire, but 100% of colonists would open fire in that situation because that's the automatic process in the game. Maybe if they had the "trigger-happy" trait one could explain it, although even then it's a big reach.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Aerial on April 21, 2017, 02:04:06 PM
I would prefer for the colonists not to automatically fire and for it to be a conscious decision by the player.

This.  If the pawn has above an X% chance of hitting a friendly pawn from their current firing position they should hold fire until told to shoot by the player.  Except in the case of a trigger-happy pawn, who should go ahead and spray bullets everywhere  ;D
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: The Man with No Name on April 21, 2017, 02:31:35 PM
Let's look at the practicalities of whether such a system could be implemented.

A colonist will not fire their weapon/will stop firing in the following circumstances:

a) At a hostile pawn if there is a chance of shooting a friendly colonist.

b) At a friendly pawn that has gone berserk.

c) At a prisoner who has gone berserk or is escaping.


Looking at the list I made earlier in the thread, b) and c) are simple to resolve, by just having the colonists not auto-fire against such targets. If necessary, they could be given an auto-flee order to a distance away from the berserker at the moment of berserkification for safety.

I'm guessing that a), which should also include things like hunting, would be more complicated to implement as the computer would have to calculate several things before firing:

a) Is a friendly in the direct line of fire of where the shooter wants to shoot?

b) Is a friendly in an adjacent square to the intended target of the shooter?

c) Is a friendly behind the intended target in the line of fire?

I'm presuming that to calculate these things would require some computer processing power, although it's beyond my capabilities to gauge how much.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Wintersdark on April 21, 2017, 06:42:23 PM
I would definitely like to see pawns NOT autofire at berserk colonists.  They should only attack colonists of any mental state when I direct them to. 

I'd like the "allow fire/hold fire" control to have three states: Free fire, Cautious Fire, Hold Fire; where "Cautious Fire" means to hold fire if there is any chance of hitting a colonist.  In a perfect world, a colonist in this state would show a thought bubble when holding fire for this reason.

I'm totally for friendly fire.  It's a very real part of combat, and absolutely belongs.  But the OP is correct in that pawn behavious tend to lead to idiotic completely unreasonable friendly fire accidents because you're not micromanaging swiftly enough.  While clearly this is ok for some players, I strongly dislike Rimworld shifting into twitchy gameplay.  This isn't Starcraft. 

With this toggle, you can tell your pawns whether you want them to just gun targets down, or to be more careful and hold their fire if friendlies could be hit.  This is self balancing: If you choose to use "Cautious Fire", your pawns will simply not fire in a lot of instances where they had good shots, but there was a remote chance of hitting a friendly; and thus inattention could still result in lots of pawns standing around doing nothing rather than fighting because things had closed into melee. 

It allows me to choose to err on the side of not gunning down my colonists (and instead maybe taking more casualties from the OpFor) but being much safer when I've already won a fight, or choose to err on the side of maximizing damage output. 

Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: The Man with No Name on April 21, 2017, 07:18:57 PM
I'd like the "allow fire/hold fire" control to have three states: Free fire, Cautious Fire, Hold Fire; where "Cautious Fire" means to hold fire if there is any chance of hitting a colonist.

I was thinking about this. The game uses toggle on/toggle off for lots of the controls, so it might be best keeping the "hold fire"/"Allow Firing" toggle, which the game currently uses, as a separate toggle from a "cautious fire" or "safe firing" toggle.

So when switching a colonist to manual control, "Allow Firing" would be set to on, as it is now, and "cautious"/"safe" firing would also be set to on. Colonists would then automatically shoot at hostiles, while not shooting at friendlies. They would automatically switch to shooting at a different hostile in such circumstances, if a target was available. This "Cautious"/"safe" firing toggle could be turned off, if a player desired to for some reason. The "Allow Firing" would be a separate toggle to completely turn off all firing until switched back on again.

And I'd agree that it would make things interesting if those who had the "Trigger Happy" trait ignored this, and perhaps had the "cautious"/"safe" firing toggle greyed out or missing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
***NEW POST***:

If the idea of a "cautious" or "safe" firing toggle isn't sexy enough, it could always be turned on its head to become an "Indiscriminate Fire" toggle! With this toggled on, colonists would open fire on hostile targets without consideration for the location of friendly pawns (so the same as the game is now). The "cautious"/"safe" firing mode would therefore just be a case of not having the "Indiscriminate Fire" toggle set to on, and its default setting should be off.

Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: cultist on April 22, 2017, 08:17:43 AM
I don't think you understand how absurd this request is. You essentially want the pawns to have human-level AI, to be able to make complex moral decisions about whether or not an actual human would risk killing an ally in billions of different scenarios and hold or open fire based on that. And that's assuming a human would even make the right choice in these situations, which is obviously no guarantee.

Let's just imagine for a second that computers could do this. Now every pawn in the game needs to check thousands of variables before they fire a single shot, just in case an ally is in the way or MIGHT get in the way during firing. Every pawn, not just your colonists. The game would slow to a crawl in combat.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Hans Lemurson on April 22, 2017, 08:47:40 AM
Needless friendly fire deaths? Pah!  I think all social fights should be fought with shotguns.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: The Man with No Name on April 22, 2017, 09:04:32 AM
I don't think you understand how absurd this request is. You essentially want the pawns to have human-level AI, to be able to make complex moral decisions about whether or not an actual human would risk killing an ally in billions of different scenarios and hold or open fire based on that. And that's assuming a human would even make the right choice in these situations, which is obviously no guarantee.

Let's just imagine for a second that computers could do this. Now every pawn in the game needs to check thousands of variables before they fire a single shot, just in case an ally is in the way or MIGHT get in the way during firing. Every pawn, not just your colonists. The game would slow to a crawl in combat.

I'm not sure you understand what is being requested here. There are "no complex moral decisions", nor "billions of different scenarios". There is only one decision and one scenario - is a friendly pawn in the line of fire? That's all there is to it.

The second part of your response is more relevant and relates to what I touched on previously - would such a system impact on game speed/performance? Weapons don't fire instantly and have a warm-up period, so that may mitigate this, but I'm not a programmer and so can only speculate.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Oragepoilu on April 22, 2017, 04:02:06 PM
IMO, the cost of performance would probably be light, as the game already calculate stuff to know if it hit a pawn or not. It's also just now and then, not a thing that need to be check every few tics.

Could be just having your pawn check line of fire when he is aiming, and stop before he shoot (at half aiming time or whatever, maybe skilled pawn could stop up to 0.1s before shooting and low skill only 1s before shooting) if he see a friendly pawn in a direct line of fire. Put a little sign over his head to show he stop fire, then the player just have to pause, check why, and adjust the battlefield by either moving his pawn, or aim at somebody else, or keep firing regardless. With a toggle like discussed before.

That leave the possibility of friendly fire here - especially with low skill (as they doesn't check right before shooting), and with usual bullet that go behind the target or too far on a side.

That could make the fight more enjoyable instead of the "pause every frame" we have right now with a full check manually of every line of fire in every single instance where a gun/turret is involved. We already have some stuff done for the hunting problem and the possibility to have pawn flee on sight (so if they are chased they have less chance to be killed by friendly fire while attacked in melee, as they would NOT be in melee).

We already take a good chunk of time to look at every battlefield, place cover, use them', use different kind of weapon, armor, pawn trait/skill, mood ... I highly doubt that having some help to deal with this kind of friendly fire would harm the gameplay in any way.

Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: The Man with No Name on April 22, 2017, 05:43:32 PM
How well does the game run with a large battle on three times speed? If it can handle that, then that might suggest there's enough in the tank for any friendly fire calculations.

I appreciate that this is a slightly separate issue, like an unintended bug, but here's another screenshot of the "Allow Firing" button not working as I presume it's intended to.

(http://i.imgur.com/onIAKCI.jpg)

Pig was firing at an incapacitated ostrich on the ground. I could see that Ali was walking in a path that would take her directly over the square with the ostrich in it. So I toggled off Pig's "Allow Firing" button and watched. Pig continued to fire, so I was wondering if perhaps Pig would cease firing at the end of the firing cycle. Nope, she then started to fire again and I paused it just before Ali entered the square, as shown.

===========================================================

***NEW POST***

Although I haven't explicitly tested it yet, I have been getting the impression from playing that turning off the "Allow Firing" toggle will only stop the pawn from firing if the pawn is subsequently moved. So if a stationary pawn is given an order to stop firing and not moved, they will continue to fire.

Since I don't have a screenshot of it, I have recreated the stupidest friendly fire incident in my game, that resulted in a colonist death, in stick man form. Four colonists are melee attacking a wounded and fleeing raider. A colonist shoots at this clustered crowd of pawns, which in itself is stupid, and shoots dead a colonist standing directly between them. It's possible that this death was caused by the bug I just mentioned about pawns not ceasing firing if stationary, but I can't be sure.

(http://i.imgur.com/UNC9zgY.png)
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Shurp on April 23, 2017, 08:14:48 PM
Be thankful he shot him dead instead of just shooting out an eye so that you're stuck with a half-useless colonist.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Belgord on April 24, 2017, 01:44:34 AM
Why did you let 4 peeps go hand to hand with a raider AND allow one of your guys to take pot shots at him?? Of course he will hit your guys, they are between his gun and the target. Don't draft him or send him somewhere else.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Shurp on April 24, 2017, 06:08:12 PM
Point is it was the straggler who got the brain shot.  The 4 guys meleeing are actually pretty safe.  But anyone else who wanders into the crossfire seems to be a guaranteed headshot.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Hans Lemurson on April 24, 2017, 09:13:43 PM
"There's no chance of me shooting dirt, so the shot MUST be clear!"
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Britnoth on April 29, 2017, 10:18:56 AM
Quote
Pig was firing at an incapacitated ostrich on the ground.

Yes, BECAUSE YOU ORDERED HIM TO.

Tynan already removed friendly fire from hunting pawns ffs. I KNOW you set that situation up like that because if they were hunting the animal, they would walk right up to them, so they would not ever miss.

Quote
A colonist shoots at this clustered crowd of pawns, which in itself is stupid, and shoots dead a colonist standing directly between them.

Entirely YOUR FAULT. Stop asking (this is directed at a great many people on this forums btw) for the game to play itself while you watch.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: The Man with No Name on April 29, 2017, 12:28:13 PM
Colonists will do a lot of things automatically, like feed themselves, rest, change clothes according to the temperature and so on. It's basic and realistic common sense behaviour to not shoot a fellow colonist in the head from a couple of yards away with a sniper rifle, and so it should not require human player intervention to prevent a colonist from doing this as an automatic and pre-determined action. It's not possible to make a rational argument against this. The only issues to consider are possible effects on computer performance and on the "flow" of combat.

I still hope that a solution can be found to this that eliminates egregiously daft instances of colonists shooting each other, while not having them hold fire excessively or unwantedly. So we are talking, in particular, about instances where colonists firing at targets puts other colonists in significant danger, and perhaps even greater danger than the intended targets.

Without knowing exactly how missile combat in the game is designed and programmed, it's difficult to offer definite solutions, but I like the idea of a speech bubble being issued to inform the player in such instances, were such a safety mechanism to be implemented.

The posters in this thread that like to say this is "my fault" (caps removed) are missing the point. You are basically saying that "colonists will inevitably and automatically shoot other colonists, despite this being unrealistic and illogical, and it's your fault for not taking this into account and micro-managing them to stop them automatically doing this", when the issue really is "why the hell did that colonist just shoot that other colonist completely unrealistically and in ludicrous circumstances?!".

Also, I haven't been able to determine exactly what causes the "bug" I mentioned about colonists continuing to fire after the "Allow Firing" toggle has been turned off, but I've encountered it on multiple occasions and the screenshot I provided is visual evidence of it.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Britnoth on May 11, 2017, 10:40:45 AM
Quote
It's basic and realistic common sense behaviour to not shoot a fellow colonist in the head from a couple of yards away with a sniper rifle,

But they do not do this, unless you specifically order them to do so by drafting them or setting them to fight hostiles instead of ignore or flee.

Entirely your fault.

Quote
"why the hell did that colonist just shoot that other colonist completely unrealistically and in ludicrous circumstances?!".

Because you badly positioned them which made this likely to happen.

YOU drafted the pawn. YOU moved the pawn. YOU decided to not use hold fire button.

Then you complain the game doesn't correct all your mistakes and play the game for you. Friendly fire is an important game mechanic. Used well it hurts the enemy much more than the player. It is as clear as day that it is an intended feature of the game. Trying to suggest it is an AI related bug in need of fixing is not going to get anywhere (I hope).
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Limdood on May 11, 2017, 09:31:45 PM
I would HATE for the game to try to default to not firing when a friendly target is there.  I'd rather micro my colonists out of friendly fire than lose a whole damn colony because half my people won't fire because a shielded noncombatant is running in to rescue someone, or a pet is racing to a safe area.

Just like trying to "fix" hauling or construction by telling pawns to haul something when they're on their way to rest, any "fix" you add in puts another layer into the game that can't be easily predicted.  I count on a sick pawn getting to the hospital bed as fast as possible, not travelling 7 tiles out of their way in deep snow to grab something i never told them to grab.  I also count on my pawns firing en masse at the nearest enemy pawn, as soon as they possibly can.  Watching them stand there not shooting while an enemy is in range would be frustrating in the extreme for me, and similarly, has the very real possibility of making a new player, who can't figure out why their pawns won't shoot sometimes, just quit Rimworld altogether.

Lastly, i see NO reason why a pawn should NOT naturally shoot a berserking colonist.  Berserking colonists have hit the very very very last straw, and are out to KILL anyone they see, friend or foe.  Shooting them may not be the best for the colony in the long run, but its a VERY understandable reaction for a drafted colonist...until that berserk rage ends, one way or another, that colonist is essentially a mortal enemy, same as a raider.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: A Friend on May 11, 2017, 10:25:42 PM
I suggest friendly fire chance be tied to the shooter's skill. The better they are, the lower the chances of ff. That way it'd feel a bit more fair. A lvl 10+ shooter will rarely miss and hit a friendly at short range while a lvl 0 would have a chance to accidentally shoot himself in the foot at point blank.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Limdood on May 12, 2017, 09:28:37 AM
I suggest friendly fire chance be tied to the shooter's skill. The better they are, the lower the chances of ff. That way it'd feel a bit more fair. A lvl 10+ shooter will rarely miss and hit a friendly at short range while a lvl 0 would have a chance to accidentally shoot himself in the foot at point blank.
please no self injuries...
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Patrykq on May 12, 2017, 11:53:53 AM
I suggest friendly fire chance be tied to the shooter's skill. The better they are, the lower the chances of ff. That way it'd feel a bit more fair. A lvl 10+ shooter will rarely miss and hit a friendly at short range while a lvl 0 would have a chance to accidentally shoot himself in the foot at point blank.
please no self injuries...
Yeah, constantly shooting your allies is enough, I think haha.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Shurp on May 12, 2017, 08:11:44 PM
I suggest friendly fire chance be tied to the shooter's skill. The better they are, the lower the chances of ff.

I second this notion.  It would definitely be entertaining to see an intelligence curve where your expert marksmen wait until they have a clean shot while the trigger happy idiot with the minigun and poor aim happily guns down your colonists who are meleeing a rabbit.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Harold3456 on May 13, 2017, 10:17:53 PM
Honestly, if there's one thing I have to hand to this game (frustrating though it may be), it's that every infuriating thing that happens to my pawns IS usually my fault. Friendly fire is one of those. I can't think of a single instance of friendly fire that didn't occur because I forgot to undraft a guy, or didn't micro a grenade/molotov thrower properly.

Yeah, it's frustrating, but this game is incredibly straight forward and intuitive about its AI processes (which is more than I can say for a lot of games - I have no clue what went wrong half the time in Castle Story or Banished). If pawns aren't acting how you want, it's always because YOU restricted the wrong thing, didn't prioritize your zones properly, forgot to toggle a switch or (in this case) didn't do a good job of positioning them in the fight and microing their drafts.

PS: In real life, it actually makes a ton of sense for civilian pawns (and most of your pawns have civilian backstories) to friendly fire each other if they're in the same equivalent line of fire, especially under high stress or when wounded. Yeah, friendly fire should be rolled less often the more skilled a shooter your pawn is, but as far as I know this is already in play.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Harold3456 on May 13, 2017, 10:19:15 PM
I suggest friendly fire chance be tied to the shooter's skill. The better they are, the lower the chances of ff.

I second this notion.  It would definitely be entertaining to see an intelligence curve where your expert marksmen wait until they have a clean shot while the trigger happy idiot with the minigun and poor aim happily guns down your colonists who are meleeing a rabbit.

Given that RNG operates on invisible dice rolls, aren't more skilled shooters already less likely to friendly fire by simple virtue of being more likely to hit their intended target?
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: A Friend on May 14, 2017, 01:15:59 AM
Well if it rolls as a miss then have it roll another time to see if that missed shot will hit a friendly because goddamn, it's jarring for a legendary marksman to shoot his allies 2 times in a row that's just a few yards away.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Modo44 on May 14, 2017, 03:06:49 AM
Given that RNG operates on invisible dice rolls, aren't more skilled shooters already less likely to friendly fire by simple virtue of being more likely to hit their intended target?
FF seems to be calculated before target hits, so no.
Title: Re: I really hate needless friendly fire deaths
Post by: Shurp on May 14, 2017, 05:19:57 AM
Exactly.  Someone gets in the way of the shot and he's more likely to get plugged regardless of the accuracy of the shooter, or at least that's how it seems.  So what I'm suggesting is that when the FF check goes off, your pawn has a skill/200 % chance of aborting.  And if he does abort a little "shot aborted" text appears over his head for a moment like when someone fails a prisoner recruitment roll.