Hi, just started messing around with RW and made a basic colonist cloning prototype. Currently it just replicates a colonist 1:1 with no effort or costs. I want to change that.
1. Is it a good idea to be able to collect DNA samples? E.g. prisoners who refuse to be recruited being cloned? What kind of device would that be? Does it damages the donor?
2. What about the cloning quality? I'd like to have some variation in skills, and maybe gender, but it should be nicely integrated. Any ideas?
3. Should the cloning process be (semi-)automated? How long should cloning take?
As I'm fairly new to xml modding, I might need some help in that part. So what do you think?
I think that you should be able to forcibly collect samples, but perhaps it make them unhappy or something, It shouldnt need to damage the donor since it would just be a DNA sample, there should be multiple types of Cloning
Perfect match- same traits, looks, stats, everything, takes the longest
Basic Genetic Copy- similar stats with slight variations in looks (same gender though) and sometimes possibly a change in traits maybe?
and for the final one Unstable Duplicate- high chance of having traits such as volitile, maybe add a new trait in called "Extremely unstable" that gives them a high chance of breaking, but they can be produced much much faster, like a clone a day per machine or something. For cloning time it could be something like
8 days, 5 days, 1 day in order from most stable to least? cloning could take biomass or something to balance things out, anything organic could be broken down and used to fuel it
Of course you dont have to use these, these are just random ideas, this mod could be a ton of fun to mess around with though, especially with a star wars mod, i could create a clone army of jedi, or just recreate the clone wars with the mechnoids......
(https://s6.postimg.org/ys41iaklt/steampunk.jpg) | This could serve the same archetypal role as breeding does. The passage of time in the game is much different from human lives, with people appearing/disappearing over the span of weeks instead of decades.
The game currently offers reinforcements/replacements in the form of people falling from the sky, random wanderer joins, and visitors. That is the competition and the baseline. For this mod to be competitive in the current game environment, it should provide an improvement over those sources of recruitment.
What should DNA replicate in a clone?
- traits would make a good candidate
- passions could also be considered a genetic predisposition
- skills probably not
(https://www.sideshowtoy.com/photo_3001491_thumb.jpg)
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Quote from: dyl000 on April 17, 2017, 06:39:32 PM
I think that you should be able to forcibly collect samples, but perhaps it make them unhappy or something, It shouldnt need to damage the donor since it would just be a DNA sample, there should be multiple types of Cloning
Perfect match- same traits, looks, stats, everything, takes the longest
Basic Genetic Copy- similar stats with slight variations in looks (same gender though) and sometimes possibly a change in traits maybe?
and for the final one Unstable Duplicate- high chance of having traits such as volitile, maybe add a new trait in called "Extremely unstable" that gives them a high chance of breaking, but they can be produced much much faster, like a clone a day per machine or something. For cloning time it could be something like
8 days, 5 days, 1 day in order from most stable to least? cloning could take biomass or something to balance things out, anything organic could be broken down and used to fuel it
Of course you dont have to use these, these are just random ideas, this mod could be a ton of fun to mess around with though, especially with a star wars mod, i could create a clone army of jedi, or just recreate the clone wars with the mechnoids......
+1 I agree with your statement. You could just make it use human flesh(we get bodies from raids right?) if the biomass thing does not pan out. The timing seems good as well.
I would only add on that if you are going to give this to RW or are going to make it rely on it or make it your own. You could make a type of perfect clone that grows up. I believe that other clones even perfect clones should not take years, but that way you could make it like the dad clones himself. (maybe he's alone and believes he's the best or maybe he just never found that special someone lol. Or perhaps clone army ftw.
(http://www.clipartlord.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/syringe2.png) | Quote from: Montezuma on April 17, 2017, 04:21:00 PM
1. Is it a good idea to be able to collect DNA samples? E.g. prisoners who refuse to be recruited being cloned? What kind of device would that be? Does it damages the donor?
It could be implemented as an operation; maybe Gather DNA sample for both prisoners and colonists. The result of doing so could be a syringe that contains colonist data to duplicate, such as physical appearance, traits and passions.
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(https://s6.postimg.org/er4at2w9d/dancers.jpg) | Might even have market value based on the various aspects of the DNA.
"Yeah man, looking for some perception? I got one right here."
Could be interesting to create some sort of mix-and-match gene splicer that extracts components, and recombines sets of components.
FrankenFun.
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Done...
Normally a cloning chamber tries to simulate at 100% the stats, traits, capacities and all relationated to the person cloned, the fact is that you can change with genetic development the stats of that cloned person, like make it Workaholic when he was a Monk on his original one, also, it's normal that a clonation chamber it's not perfect, it must exist a mistake in his clonation process, and give some unfortunately effects, like a mutant leg or a trait of ugly, obviously you need some DNA from the user you want to clone.
But, that person must be completely healed to give the correct production and effect, because if you clone a person with cancer, the clone will have cancer, and removing that to make the clone does not have it, it's very hard, because is a genetic process and very unstable.
You can design some modulator that alters the genetic stats from the user you want to clone, in this case using the DNA, like blood, and provide it with better work speed, a young version of himself, Etc.
I consider that class of technology like Ultra, because clone a colonist with 6 or 7 on every stat and he dies and you lose it inmediately, it's something that makes impossible to kill it, in theory, obviously for the mistakes in the clonation process you can put some colonist with a lvl of 8 or 10 of fabrication, to not make it possible to fail and clone some monster from a bionic optimist soldier.
Yes, I'm aware that cloning can kill the fun because of OP.
I also thought of "mistakes" which might happen during the cloning process. I guess the material quality of the donor should have an impact, e.g. need 20 litres of blood from a donor - harvested over a longer time, else the clone won't be pure. The sample else won't have all the information of the donor, e.g. skills missing which the splicer will have to "fill", with possibly weird outcomes.
Altering stats of a clone or filling in the missing pieces could use medical skill and a lot of time, till an acceptable cloning blueprint is made out of the sample.
Clones needs a backstory implanted during the process, else he's aware of its status (new backstories, good/evil clone or something). Backstories also affect skills & traits, which should give some variation.
Clones could also bear designed flaws, like the Replicants from Blade Runner with a short life span, or the Jem'Hadar from Star Trek which rely on a drug to survive – or both.
I guess the mod will also need an option menu, to switch between standard and easy mode, to have some fun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQj2NP25TIo
Concerning a clones age, it would be stupid for an 80 year old to clone himself to the same age, he would go for a younger version without the old age diseases. Therefore, the age of the clone should be selectable. Altering the age or removing diseases (as Source wrote) leads to flawed blueprints.
You could use bigger samples than only blood .. that contain more different celltypes .. a whole arm for example.
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Done...
It's very good, the situation here is make realist and not OP this mod, also, like Space explains, using bigger samples or used samples it's a good function and it has more chance to clone correctly.
Also, not only humans can be cloned, you can clone animals and entities from other mods, using his samples, and with animal the chance to clone must be a little more fast and more probably to function, the same thing happens with the organs, using a damaged organ or shredded it's possible to clone this one to use it for a pacient terminal, like a lung for a asthma user, obviously cloning organs it's a process more complicated, specially when this organs are damaged, and clone it completely healed it's more complicated, you should add the chance that this organs can suffer a malfunction during the process and put some sub-name to this ones like "Cloned Lung" and when it fails like "Cloned Deformed Lung" having a less percent of functionality, and even a risk of infection on this ones.
Then work on genetically modified people. Better than you, but they cost more.
On failure it should create an abomination. A horrible-looking creature that may be friendly/neutral/aggressive. Completely random stats, if possible.
I think a lot is possible. Technically I'm just copying the pawn's stats to a newly generated pawn. Those stats can be altered unintentionally (cloning errors) or intentionally (genetic engineering). Also mixed stats of two pawns are possible.
Cloning organs also looks like a nice alternative to organ harvesting. I think I'll need a research tree for better equipment and a faster cloning process.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/4e/3b/c2/4e3bc2a877baaa828773feca196f3bdb.jpg) | Quote from: Source on April 18, 2017, 12:49:19 PM
- a cloning chamber it's not perfect, mistakes must exist in its cloning process
- a person must be completely healed to give the correct production and effect
These are expenses/liabilities attached to the mod in exchange for using the benefits of the mod.
It is a good plan to place all such costs outside the game code in a defs xml.
- adjusting costs so that the mod is worth using becomes much easier
- individual taste of the players can edit where they want more or less cost
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Where insistence on imposing cost exists there is also problems of the value of the mod, and the desire of the mod author is derailed to become expressing grief upon the player. Those mods are not played much.
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Done...Quote from: AngleWyrm on April 19, 2017, 03:02:45 PM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/4e/3b/c2/4e3bc2a877baaa828773feca196f3bdb.jpg) | Quote from: Source on April 18, 2017, 12:49:19 PM
- a cloning chamber it's not perfect, mistakes must exist in its cloning process
- a person must be completely healed to give the correct production and effect
These are expenses/liabilities attached to the mod in exchange for using the benefits of the mod.
It is a good plan to place all such costs outside the game code in a defs xml.
- adjusting costs so that the mod is worth using becomes much easier
- individual taste of the players can edit where they want more or less cost
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Where insistence on imposing cost exists there is also problems of the value of the mod, and the desire of the mod author is derailed to become expressing grief upon the player. Those mods are not played much.
It's just a couple of recomendations, it's not the decision of the people, it's the decision of the modder and what he decides correct and necessary to provide a good mod, im just saying those recomendations for the realist process, and for no having such OP things, if he don't wants to make complications it's fine, no problem, but im guessing that he must take the recomendations and "costs" to a general decision in order to have a easy or moderated mod with his benefits at the max of efficiency.
Quote from: SpaceDorf on April 19, 2017, 10:03:20 AM
You could use bigger samples than only blood .. that contain more different celltypes .. a whole arm for example.
I would prefer if we did not remove limbs that seems boring and brutish. It's extremely unrealistic and a poor way of balancing out something. Like when then cost such massive amount of resources, and you know that there is no logical reason for it. It is purely to make it "balanced".
There are many ways to get DNA samples heck. If you want realism, making is an artificial womb, with some kinda of growth hormones and or steroids, that makes the fetus grow faster. If you vat grown (which if I could have both I would) Then they would most likely still be the same, (implanted memories and knowledge ho!). Make vat grown to be a short gestation period with maybe 10-30% chance of bad stuff and Artificial womb have 0% chance but be like a season before the child/adult whatever comes out. I mean; you have to research it, build it supply it and at the same time how power does not crap out on. I'm sure the pros will have no problem blasting through getting everything in short time then complain op. Don't let them make it hard to the point it not being worth it purely because they became so good that extreme poses no challenge to them anymore.
Quote from: AngleWyrm on April 19, 2017, 03:02:45 PM
Where insistence on imposing cost exists there is also problems of the value of the mod, and the desire of the mod author is derailed to become expressing grief upon the player. Those mods are not played much.
This excatly.
@Dragoon The bigger sample was a half joking suggestion, not one of balance.
That said. Your balance suggestions sound good.
Especially the artificial Womb and VatGrown mechanics, because I thought myself about how cloning works today.
And in addition to the gene sample there is a source of stem-cells involved.
A Zygote of the soon to be cloned Species.
There is only one source for those so far, and it introduces its own DNA Samples and probability for failure.
fast production of humans maybe requires concentrated human genetic material to work, X-COM 2 style ... so you have to render down raiders into meat, or just give it corpses, to accelerate the process.
Status update:
I've adapted the blood sample from the CTS mod and have code for 1:1 copies.
I agree, cutting off limbs is not really how cloning works nowadays. But just grabbing a hair or a drop of blood is some kind of lazy.
My current plans (for now to get a full cloning cycle prototype)
- Gather blood samples; every time a sample is collected, only a small, randomized amount of information is saved. Meaning multiple samples are needed to have all the information to fully clone an individual. Collecting samples counts as an operation and the donor will need to rest for a while.
- You will need at least 80 % sample quality for trying to clone an individual, the rest of the information will be filled by the sequencer,
but only if you have fully deciphered the genome (i.e. by collecting samples from the same species). - Clone will grow within 3 hours for testing purposes (I don't wait 7 days for results ;) )
- Mod options via XML and/or cloning UI: clone has deadly disease and dies within 1 year, clone needs drug to stay alive ...
- Future plans: multiple cloning devices via research; artificial womb ...
will the genetic samples be reusable? because I was hoping to make essentially a clone army of expendables to use as a main line of defence, that way I can mess around with different tactics and such rather than just hiding in a bunker because im afraid a raider will put a hole in my colonists skull
It's not fully fleshed out yet, but I plan to make a genetic database. Samples will be analyzed and added to the database, thus allowing easy cloning of individuals multiple times, and also combining samples.
Since everybody has so many AI Cores lying around ..
the gene sequencer and maybe the cloning chamber surveilance machine seem like a good place to store some of those.
I'm really glad somebody's working on this. I was talking to people on the Steam forums about exactly this, how to implement it, and was starting to suspect that I'd have to do it myself (starting from NO modding knowledge!). So it's quite a relief that somebody's already started on it!
A couple of thoughts:
First, age. I'd strongly suggest that, rather than making the age selectable, you just force it to 20 years old (ie, JUST old enough to have an adult backstory). This way you don't have issues with clones becoming adult and either having no adult backstory or a nonsensical one. Just assume that RNA and neural networks got copied along with DNA, so the clone has the same memories as the 'parent'. Though, this could get weird if you cloned somebody younger than that.
There's no real reason to make age selectable, it just adds complexity both for you and for players.
Quality of cloning. I would say that, in line with other stuff in Rimworld, the quality of the cloning job should be largely determined by the Medical skill of whoever is operating the cloning machine. You could also perhaps have the machine require medicine as 'fuel', consuming one unit per X amount of time. Decide when initiating a specific cloning job, whether to use herbal, standard or glitter medicine - you are then committed to sticking with that type until the clone is ready. In this case, perhaps medical skill could determine how closely the clone's attributes match the original, and medicine quality could affect the risk of flaws.
Non-humans. Cloning animals should be technically pretty trivial since they don't have traits or skills to copy but are just generic 'templates' of a species. BUT if the cloning device can copy animals, it should also be able to clone "alien" races (to follow Rimworld canon, EVERY 'alien' race mod I have seen claims that its species is actually either a branch of humanity or engineered from Earth animals. So they would be genetically compatible and able to be cloned without trouble). As such, you ideally should set this up so that either it easily integrates modded species and recreates the proper race without a fuss. OR at least try to implement it in such a way that creators of alien race mods can easily patch your mod to work with theirs.
Quote from: Montezuma on April 23, 2017, 03:13:07 AM
I agree, cutting off limbs is not really how cloning works nowadays. But just grabbing a hair or a drop of blood is some kind of lazy.
The information coded into a single microscopic strand of DNA is the complete description of a life form's development, from birth to death. It's the how-to recipe to turn ingredients into a creature, including the construction of all the little factories it takes to make that happen. We discovered some of our compression algorithms from DNA, because it's pretty amazing stuff.
Raw materials that get converted into the history of a life are what we call food.
Quote from: Orpheus on May 09, 2017, 12:09:48 AM
I'm really glad somebody's working on this. I was talking to people on the Steam forums about exactly this, how to implement it, and was starting to suspect that I'd have to do it myself (starting from NO modding knowledge!). So it's quite a relief that somebody's already started on it!
A couple of thoughts:
First, age. I'd strongly suggest that, rather than making the age selectable, you just force it to 20 years old (ie, JUST old enough to have an adult backstory). This way you don't have issues with clones becoming adult and either having no adult backstory or a nonsensical one. Just assume that RNA and neural networks got copied along with DNA, so the clone has the same memories as the 'parent'. Though, this could get weird if you cloned somebody younger than that.
There's no real reason to make age selectable, it just adds complexity both for you and for players.
Quality of cloning. I would say that, in line with other stuff in Rimworld, the quality of the cloning job should be largely determined by the Medical skill of whoever is operating the cloning machine. You could also perhaps have the machine require medicine as 'fuel', consuming one unit per X amount of time. Decide when initiating a specific cloning job, whether to use herbal, standard or glitter medicine - you are then committed to sticking with that type until the clone is ready. In this case, perhaps medical skill could determine how closely the clone's attributes match the original, and medicine quality could affect the risk of flaws.
I disagree on these two points
First off.
This mod was made with RW in mind(which has children). Of course, if they do make it standalone which he or she could easily decide it do. Picking age is still something that should be decided by the player. It in no way cause anything bad, "There's no real reason to make age selectable, it just adds complexity both for you and for players.". Complexity is not a bad thing, it's a great thing if used right and making a decision for the age of something is a good way. I'm pretty sure to decide the age of the clone is not going to be the hard part. And if the author is able to do it, I say go for it. We would all appreciate it.
As for the players not having a reason. You might want a clone of a certain age because you may have a mod that effects age checks. it could be because maybe you want the rng as your way of balancing it out. Plus many of the players that are vocal say they like to have their base go on for years because they don't want it to end. Or simply want to have the age in mind that you want. There are many reasons why players should have the choice.
They should not have the same memories if anything that would be a choice between a generic clone or a "perfect clone" which would decide whether or not they had the same backstories as the original. Realistically they would have the backstory vat clone, for both childhood and adult. While a "perfect clone" would retain such things.
Second off.
I disagree it should be based on medical skill. If it was skilled based it should be reliant upon research skill, rather than medical skill. The machine is not exactly a medical one, just because it has to do with the human body does not mean, that a doctor would be the best for it. A scientist working in this field would be better than a doctor, as they would know the proper amounts of whatever is needed for a clone. While a doctor would know what a human needs, they would be more useful after the clone comes out, rather than during the creation of the clone.
I don't think it taking medicine is a proper fuel. I just don't believe that it makes sense as fuel for this machine. I feel as though that is a balancing act it could work. If the author decides to do this, then we'll have to go with it. However, it will be purely just to balance.
Idk about how I feel about it being medicine based.
Honestly, I think you should make your own cloning mod, NOT because your suggestions are bad, but because you seem to have a real passion for it. And I know there would be people looking for a mod exactly like yours. I think it would be nice to have variety. Maybe even both. Different cloning ways from different worlds. Like in star wars how you have kaminioan cloning and skitarri.
Yeah, I may end up making my own version. But I already have a pretty long list of things that I want to make, should already be making, or have said that I will make. Given that somebody's already working on this, the deciding factor for me will be whether, in the end, I disagree with his interpretation enough to add another job to my list.
That said, I'm also vaguely looking into the possibility of a mod to resurrect dead pawns. As part of that, I think I'd need to either borrow this mod's method of copying their attributes, or else write my own code to do the same thing. In which case, I might get bored and extend it to include cloning as well.
Or, just as possibly, I may get distracted, abandon both ideas and do something completely different instead...
I like all your ideas, very well-thought and I understand all aspects.
In A17, I saw a new mod menu, which could be used to make the player decide if either medical or research skill will be used, same for needed resources and added complexity.
A working A16 prototype which clones humans can be found here (https://github.com/Killface1980/RW_CrazyClones). Other species currently not working, something wrong with the pawn generation?
I know this is a triviality, but what of moods?
What if witnessing a clone working about the colony made colonist uncomfortable, resulting in poor mood (piticulerly for the person they were cloned from!)
How about cloning the dead ? ;D that would be exciting
(https://20ui41tp7v127j03rcnp97oh-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/jcrichard_jurassicpark700.jpg) | Quote from: iyedmoto on May 27, 2017, 12:55:15 PM
How about cloning the dead ? ;D that would be exciting
From a wikipedia article on Ancient DNA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA)
QuoteAccording to their model, mitochondrial DNA is degraded to an average length of 1 base pair after 6,830,000 years at −5 °C |
Quote from: AngleWyrm on June 05, 2017, 11:45:11 PM
(https://20ui41tp7v127j03rcnp97oh-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/jcrichard_jurassicpark700.jpg) | Quote from: iyedmoto on May 27, 2017, 12:55:15 PM
How about cloning the dead ? ;D that would be exciting
From a wikipedia article on Ancient DNA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA)
QuoteAccording to their model, mitochondrial DNA is degraded to an average length of 1 base pair after 6,830,000 years at −5 °C |
good to know ;D
I think closing this way even with drawback will break the game.
I would rather do "medical clones" like in Eve Online.
When a character dies, his consciousness is transferred to a clone of him.
In RW, making those clones would cost human meat, plasteel, perhaps gold or components ?
Quote from: Wishmaster on June 10, 2017, 05:26:06 PM
I think closing this way even with drawback will break the game.
I would rather do "medical clones" like in Eve Online.
When a character dies, his consciousness is transferred to a clone of him.
In RW, making those clones would cost human meat, plasteel, perhaps gold or components ?
Plasteel, gold, and or components? For a human body? Also, any mod that adds colonists is gonna break the game. You being able to bring back a star colonist for anything is gonna break it. I rather have the full proper clones, than "A life up" the mod.