I've already mentioned this issue on this page (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=31739.30) in another thread. Since it's happened again, I'm posting it in this sub-forum.
Issue: Colonists continue to fire after the "Allow Firing" toggle has been turned off, as in this screenshot.
(http://i.imgur.com/zUXxQgX.jpg)
I haven't been able to pin down exactly what causes it. My latest guess is that perhaps it happens in instances where a target has been manually selected while a pawn is drafted. Subsequent turning off of the "Allow Firing" toggle does not stop them firing. As I say, that's just an untested hypothesis.
Quote from: The Man with No Name on April 30, 2017, 09:54:29 PM
Issue: Colonists continue to fire after the "Allow Firing" toggle has been turned off...
I haven't been able to pin down exactly what causes it. My latest guess is that perhaps it happens in instances where a target has been manually selected while a pawn is drafted. Subsequent turning off of the "Allow Firing" toggle does not stop them firing. As I say, that's just an untested hypothesis.
Not untested anymore.
- A drafted colonist that has been manually "forced" to fire at a target will not cease fire once "Allow firing" has been disabled.
- A drafted colonist that has been manually "forced" to fire at a target will still fire even if "Allow firing" was disabled already.
This could be as intended as a sort of QoL thing for people who don't realise they have "Allow firing" disabled, but need to be able to kill something or someone. That's entirely speculation, though :)
Surely the most common sense outcomes are:
Quote
- A drafted colonist that has been manually "forced" to fire at a target will not cease fire once "Allow firing" has been disabled.
- Turning off "Allow Firing" overrides the previous order and they stop firing until given an order to do so again/"Allow Firing" is toggled back on.
Quote
- A drafted colonist that has been manually "forced" to fire at a target will still fire even if "Allow firing" was disabled already.
- This perhaps works okay, if the "Allow Firing" toggle adjusts accordingly - so if "Allow Firing" is toggled off and a colonist is manually ordered to fire at a target, they will do so and the "Allow Firing" toggle is automatically turned on again.
I've shot more allies to due the failings of this mechanic than I'd rather like to think about. I'm not sure if I'm doing something that causes it (user error) or if this is actually a bug.
I think it should work as a 'final safety' check, regardless of what it's actual design is for; but a good rationale behind the design would be acceptable too.
When the "Allow fire" toggle is off the pawn will not automatically shoot at enemies. You can still manually order him to shoot.
I can't see how this could cause any problems. Could you please describe the exact scenario where it's unintuitive?
How can it be intuitive if the player tells a colonist to stop firing and they continue to fire? That's the opposite of intuitive.
In combat, the colonists will be drafted, and often one will want to manually select a target, such as a raider with a weapon like a doomsday rocket launcher or one who is charging at the colonists. If for some reason one wanted to stop firing, such as a colonist getting in the way, it is logical to order the shooting colonist to hold fire by turning off the "Allow Firing" toggle. Except they don't stop firing.
Look at the example in the thread I linked to. A colonist has been ordered to fire at an incapacitated animal. Another colonist's task means her walking route takes her directly over the square with the wounded animal being targeted. So the logical action is to tell the shooter to hold fire by turning off the "Allow Firing" button. Yet the shooter continued to fire and only my intervention, by forcing the shooter to move, prevented a likely friendly fire incident (as pawns don't fire and move).
Indeed, the "Allow Firing" toggle is so useless that the way I've taken to be sure to stop colonists firing when I don't want them to is to force them to move, even if I don't want them to.
It's very simple - if a colonist has "Allow Firing" turned off, they should not be firing their weapons. That's emphatically the intuitive procedure.
Seems like what this button needs is a tool-tip change to "Automatically Fire" or "Auto Target" from "Allow Fire."
I've been testing it myself. It's all very muddled:
- If a drafted colonist is automatically firing at targets and the "Allow Firing" toggle is turned off, they will stop firing.
- If a drafted colonist has been ordered to shoot at a particular target and the "Allow Firing" toggle is turned off, they will continue to fire.
- If a drafted colonist has been ordered to shoot at a particular target and the "Allow Firing" toggle is turned off, they will continue to fire, but if they are subsequently moved even one square they will then stop firing.
Quote from: Barex on May 04, 2017, 03:48:36 PM
Seems like what this button needs is a tool-tip change to "Automatically Fire" or "Auto Target" from "Allow Fire."
Well, there definitely needs to be a "stop firing" command or else the only ways to stop a colonist from firing would be to:
a) Move them somewhere out of range of a target or behind an obstacle to break the line of sight.
b) Keep the colonist in perpetual movement, as they don't fire while moving.
c) Force the colonist to drop their weapon.
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EDIT:
Quote from: Barex on May 04, 2017, 03:48:36 PM
Seems like what this button needs is a tool-tip change to "Automatically Fire" or "Auto Target" from "Allow Fire."
There could potentially be a use for a second toggle along these lines. There is no current designated way, I think, to go from manual targeting to automatic "Watching for targets". I think the way to do this currently involves undrafting and redrafting the colonist.
So a second toggle could be for automatic/manual targeting. To go from manual targeting to automatic targeting, one would unclick this toggle. To go from automatic to manual, one would select a target to shoot at, as it is currently.
So to recap:
- colonists who are either automatically targeting or manually targeting should instantly stop firing when the "Allow Firing" is toggled to off (currently only automatic targeters follow this procedure)
- if a colonist has "Allow Firing" toggled off, and subsequently has it turned on, they will go to automatic targeting/"watching for targets" (as is currently)
- a colonist who has "Allow Firing" toggled off and is manually given a target to shoot at, will start firing and the "Allow Firing" toggle will automatically turn to the "on" position (as currently it stays in the "off" position).
One could do the same by toggling "Allow Firing" on first and then targeting, but why make the player do something in two clicks, when it can be done in one - by manually assigning a target to shoot at one has given assent for the colonist to fire. Plus, it could lead to instances of the player selecting a target to shoot at and then wondering why they're just standing there as the enemy rush in, only to realise that they forgot to turn the "Allow Firing" off before ordering the colonist shoot at a target.
Thank you for your feedback.
I think the confusion comes from the fact that the "Allow firing" command's label is misleading and it should really be "Allow firing automatically". It wasn't meant to forbid the colonists from firing completely, it was to allow the player to manually choose targets on his own. Perhaps there should be another command to immediately stop the current "Attack" job.
I'll leave this for Tynan to decide.
It would make sense to have two separate toggles then:
i) "Allow Firing" (Yes/No) as a way to force colonists to hold fire.
ii) "Automatic targeting/Manual targeting" - or "Automatic targeting" (Yes/No) - to switch between the two targeting types. Going from manual to automatic targeting would require clicking this toggle. Since going from automatic to manual requires having a manually-set target, trying to unclick the automatic targeting toggle would produce a notification such as "must select target". So to go from automatic to manual would require manually setting the target, whereupon the automatic target toggle would automatically change in accordance.
We should rename it "auto-fire".
Not auto-fire, maybe auto-target.
My first thought on auto-fire is firing modes (single shot, burst fire, fully-automatic) and I expect you'll engender at least a little confusion with auto-fire.
I can see some getting confused over using "auto-fire", but at least it makes sense to me now that the intent is explained. Maybe add a more detailed tooltip on hover explaining this?
Quote from: Tynan on May 05, 2017, 01:19:32 PM
We should rename it "auto-fire".
If that's all that's going to happen, then it's not solving the issue at all, just moving the confusion sideways so to speak.
Probably right. Perhaps something else would be better.
Auto fire
Shoot automatically
Auto attack
Free fire
Auto target
Fire at will * * I think this one is best
There will be a tooltip.
If all you are thinking about is a cosmetic name change, then explain how a player would do these things:
i) Hold fire if they are in manual-targeting mode?
ii) Switch from manual-targeting to auto-targeting?
Quote from: The Man with No Name on May 05, 2017, 01:48:37 PM
If all you are thinking about is a cosmetic name change, then explain how a player would do these things:
i) Hold fire if they are in manual-targeting mode?
ii) Switch from manual-targeting to auto-targeting?
i) Turn off allow firing, undraft, draft.
ii) Turn on allow firing, undraft, draft.
My answer is subject to correction, as I'm trying to do it from memory without the game.
Exactly. It's neither intuitive or integrated into the existing combat mechanism/interface.
Why if I want to stop an auto-targeting shooter do I just need to uncheck "Allow Firing", but if I want to stop a manually-targeting shooter I have to turn off allow firing, undraft and redraft? They should both follow the same procedure.
Jimyoda: for ii, just turn on allow firing; You shouldn't need to undraft, draft.
for i. your solution is currently correct, though; I'm not 100% sure why I'd want to do that, anyway.
QuoteFire at will
My vote is for this, as well. Also, possibly making it so that turning this off if the target is currently firing will also stop them firing might be worthwhile; Then you can manually make them fire if you wish, but they'll only fire as directed.
For case ii.
You have a drafted colonist. You decide to manually choose a target for them, so now in manual target mode. Now you want to switch them to autonomous targeting. You must ensure that allow fire is turned on. And you must clear the manual targeting, to do so, simply undraft and redraft. Hence, turn on allow firing, undraft, draft.
I see what you're saying. I don't think it's completely necessary, as they should choose a new target if the currently assigned target becomes invalid (downed, killed, moves out of sight/range) but if you wanted them to select their own target immediately, rather than once they were done with the one you assigned, then yeah, the undraft, draft would do that.
Basically there are four states colonists should be able to be in while in a drafted state:
Firing allowed/Auto-targeting
Firing allowed/Manual-targeting
Holding fire/Auto-targeting
Holding fire/Manual-targeting
One could combine the two "Holding Fire" states into a single state, so a manual-targeter who was ordered to hold fire and then subsequently allowed to fire again, would go straight into auto-targeting mode. Or keep them as two states, so a manual-targeting shooter told to hold fire and then allowed to fire again would go back to firing at the target they were previously.
If going for three states, then there could be a sliding toggle (like with how one assigns Medical care level) for "holding fire", "auto-targeting", "manual targeting". If going for four states, then two on/off toggles would be the better option, one for "allow firing" (on/off) and the other controlling automatic/manual-targeting.
Personally, I prefer the four states solution, but either would be an improvement and solve the issues.
EDIT: To add, one still needs to keep in mind that switching from automatic to manual-targeting doesn't really work without having already selected a target, hence my suggestion of a "must select target" notification. I don't think this is such a big deal as the more intuitive way of going from auto-targeting to manual-targeting in gameplay is going to be for the player to just right-click on who they want to shoot at, rather than changing any toggle from auto to manual-targeting in the interface.
Okay, the bug is handled, this is now in the realm of design suggestions, so further discussion should please go in the appropriate forum for that. Thanks.