So, I've been playing a17 and I've noticed that even bandaged/"healed" infliction's are getting infections now, is that a bug or is that intended now?
For example, one of my colonists was burned (I hate incendiary launchers so much), treated as soon as was possible but they still ended up with an infection.
Guess what I'm mainly asking is, has the infection chance increased?
what quality had your bandage? i think when you using "best" medicine with 60+% you will get no infections. But no idea atm.
I've not changed anything from a16, I've always tended to leave the "best" medicine for operations or plague or something equally as dangerous, with the smaller damage from raids as herbal or no medicine (but doctor care). didn't think that it would come back and bite me as hard as it did.
Can't remember what the % was, in the end, I just dev mode healed them
It was a bug in A16 that tended wounds couldn't get infections.
I definitely think this needs to be looked at. I have had several starts as tribal rough difficulty in the mountains, they get hypothermia day 2, ok that's fine. Then they get infected, alright. Then Day 3 I get them warmed up, they are healthy with food stuffs, they work through until they have immunity, (full health, no injury at this point except for infection) And they die as soon as they gain immunity. I would understand if someone was bed ridden, and got to the point where they needed immunity and couldn't hack it because they were too sick or hurt or whatever. But if they are fully healed and only have a flu infection? The rate it kills you is actually quite alarming.
I know in the through the lens of the modern world that the flu doesnt seem that deadly but even with current standards of medical care around 12000 to 56000. The flu kills more people on average than AIDS which is at about an estimated 13,712 people in 2012. Now put that into the context of this game. Middle of nowhere, no medical infrastructure, poor personal hygiene (no one washes their hands or showers) and people are in close proximity to each other and food might not be the most nutritious. The Flu should have a high rate of mortality in that setting.
Citations - Flu related deaths https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm
- AIDS related deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_the_United_States
I know wiki is usually a no-go for citations but this isnt a book report.
Hospital cleanliness matters.
Sounds like infections work again like they did A15. I've been missing them, infections weren't a thing in A16.
Quote from: Ukas on May 04, 2017, 04:01:46 AM
Sounds like infections work again like they did A15. I've been missing them, infections weren't a thing in A16.
Heh, well, almost. I actually had a colonist die of an infection in an A16 game shortly before the A17 unstable release. She'd been involved in taking down a raider, and my doctor healed the raider, then went to bed; Next morning, both colonist and raider were on bed rest, and I was microing my doctor (also best shooter aside from the wounded colonist) to go do some hunting, so the wounded colonist still didn't get medical care. Got an infection, died of it despite me eventually noticing and trying to doctor her.
But the rarity of infection in A16 definitely contributed to my complacency.
Quote from: Zhentar on May 03, 2017, 10:52:34 AM
It was a bug in A16 that tended wounds couldn't get infections.
If this will be true at A17, it will very hard to survive, special when 2 or more raids happen shortly, special when half of your pawn's are in the bed with infection.
Quote from: DariusWolfe on May 04, 2017, 12:13:37 PM
Quote from: Ukas on May 04, 2017, 04:01:46 AM
Sounds like infections work again like they did A15. I've been missing them, infections weren't a thing in A16.
Heh, well, almost. I actually had a colonist die of an infection in an A16 game shortly before the A17 unstable release. She'd been involved in taking down a raider, and my doctor healed the raider, then went to bed; Next morning, both colonist and raider were on bed rest, and I was microing my doctor (also best shooter aside from the wounded colonist) to go do some hunting, so the wounded colonist still didn't get medical care. Got an infection, died of it despite me eventually noticing and trying to doctor her.
But the rarity of infection in A16 definitely contributed to my complacency.
Actually had a colonist die to Infection the other day in A16 ... from an infection in their hand after they crash-landed and rescued ASAP
Infections certainly are brutal now. I just lost a colonist to it for the first time since A15 to a scratch from a wayward panther. In A16, as long as you were careful and treated wounds immediately there was virtually no chance of an infection killing a colonist. A17 it seems that RNG plays a much larger role, which I can't say I'm a big fan of. Punish me for my mistakes, but not otherwise.
In A15, tended wounds could get infections, BUT healing was pretty fast. I know when i played, i expected to get infections when a body part was blown down to next-to-no-hp, as those took the LONGEST to heal, expecially torso, because it had the most HP to heal. The notable part was the short heal times. It was actually unusual to get a raid while a pawn was still injured, just because they healed so fast. Most any degree of damage was completely gone inside a day.
In A16, tended wounds could no longer be infected, BUT healing was DRASTICALLY slowed down. A 3/40 hp-left torso will take several days to heal, even in a hospital bed with vitals monitor. Significantly longer if the pawn is up and about and working. Infections were rarely an issue, so long as you could get to injured pawns and bandage them in a reasonable amount of time, but with heavy raiding storytellers, you'll often be sending injured pawns back out to fight.
In A17, you now have to face the worst of both worlds. The healing rate stays slow, but now tended wounds can get infections. Not only will this eat thru medicine MUCH faster (infections are quite serious, and a pinky infection will kill you in 2 days), but with raid-happy storytellers, you'll be sending out wounded pawns to fight, much like A16, but now they might also be infected and thus gaining infection severity while slowing immunity gain. This will DRASTICALLY increase difficulty for back-to-back raids where the colonists actually take damage.
Ideas?
- drastically reduced, but not eliminated chances of tended wound infection.
- infection reaching 100% will destroy the body part and perhaps (50%?) spread to adjacent body parts to start again. No more deadly pinky infections, but the chance to spread still gives incentive for amputation if it becomes obvious it can't be cured.
Quote from: Limdood on May 05, 2017, 09:31:46 AM
- infection reaching 100% will destroy the body part and perhaps (50%?) spread to adjacent body parts to start again. No more deadly pinky infections, but the chance to spread still gives incentive for amputation if it becomes obvious it can't be cured.
I like this idea. Nothing is worse than watching your colonist waste away with nothing you can do about it. With organ destruction you can at least fix the poor bastard back up given sufficient effort.
Quote from: Limdood on May 05, 2017, 09:31:46 AM
In A17, you now have to face the worst of both worlds. The healing rate stays slow, but now tended wounds can get infections. Not only will this eat thru medicine MUCH faster (infections are quite serious, and a pinky infection will kill you in 2 days), but with raid-happy storytellers, you'll be sending out wounded pawns to fight, much like A16, but now they might also be infected and thus gaining infection severity while slowing immunity gain. This will DRASTICALLY increase difficulty for back-to-back raids where the colonists actually take damage.
Oh yeah this all sounds so great I can hardly wait! With Randy on intense there can be 4 even 5 raids in two days, which means I will have to make decisions like shall I send seriously sick people from hospital to fight battles. There were no scenarios like these in A16, so I'm expecting a lot of fun.
And caravans! I'm using set up camp mod, so people will definitely die because of infections when camping during caravan trips. Which will make the whole business much more riskier, and exciting. Awesome!
Quote from: Ukas on May 05, 2017, 12:37:49 PM
Quote from: Limdood on May 05, 2017, 09:31:46 AM
In A17, you now have to face the worst of both worlds.....
Oh yeah this all sounds so great I can hardly wait! With Randy on intense there can be 4 even 5 raids in two days, which means I will have to make decisions like shall I send seriously sick people from hospital to fight battles. There were no scenarios like these in A16, so I'm expecting a lot of fun.
And caravans! I'm using set up camp mod, so people will definitely die because of infections when camping during caravan trips. Which will make the whole business much more riskier, and exciting. Awesome!
There are two kinds of people who play Rimworld.
I wasn't necessarily complaining. Its just tight on meds early. If more traders will carry herbal meds, and for cheaper (or regular meds), i can tolerate it. Growing time on healroot is a pain.
I'm sure I saw wild healroot mentioned but I have not seen any. This makes a solo 'with nothing' start very dangerous as one infected scratch means game over, especially with the debuff on self-healing.
I had lots of wild healroot on my map, though I was only able to get a handful at a time, due to variances in growth state. It still allowed me to take care of a couple of early, minor infections prior to the big fight that led to the wipe of my colony. I also saw it on my subsequent start. It's possible that it's not indigenous to the biome you started in?
Well, the old fashioned way of dealing with infections was amputation.
Infected pinky? Say hello to hook hand!
Really makes bionics and prosthetics mods look good.
Well, when I made this thread I was expecting maybe one or two replies of "you're being silly" or a simple yes/no answer.
I'm not complaining about the infections in general (makes it more interesting, I admit), I am however complaining about injuries being infected within hours of each other (example - infection of torso 14h then Infection of foot at 16h) rather than at the same time (which is what I expected in a16 after moving from a15)
I hadn't actually realised the little to no infections in injuries was a bug in a16 so maybe I got a little too comfortable with that ideology and didn't think I'd need to change it in a17 until my best shooter nearly died from a little infection as I hadn't harvested any of the wild healroot that was in that particular biome - a mod I adored, and now thankful it is vanilla
Quote from: DariusWolfe on May 05, 2017, 01:11:14 PM
There are two kinds of people who play Rimworld.
Definitely.
I personally prefer more challenge like this, but then play the game on Phoebe, so I guess I'm both types?
But I'd rather have a small raid be a big deal and a big risk to deal with, rather than fending off a bagillion space pirates with ease, just so I could bury/cremate 30 corpses every few days.
I feel like the former style of gameplay is what Tynan is looking for too, it fits with his vision of the game, a storytelling game where each individual is important. When you fight off 50 pawns every few days, the stories are repetitive and excessive, and become meaningless Tower Defense.
When a raid is once-a-month at most and a handful of guys, but each one can easily permanently disable or kill a pawn, and each bullet or stab may require a ton of medical management... it's meaningful, each small decision could carry a lot of weight. I greatly prefer that over "I'll just spam turrets and sniper rifles and who cares if we get shot up, it's just a few herbal meds away from being fully cured."
Quote from: DariusWolfe on May 05, 2017, 07:01:27 PM
I had lots of wild healroot on my map, though I was only able to get a handful at a time, due to variances in growth state. It still allowed me to take care of a couple of early, minor infections prior to the big fight that led to the wipe of my colony. I also saw it on my subsequent start. It's possible that it's not indigenous to the biome you started in?
Hmm. I started in the temperate forest, I would have thought it would be prevalent.
I am still adjusting infections build by build, thanks for the feedback everyone.
What worries me is that torso infections can't be fixed by amputation. And since the torso is one of the most likely areas to get hit, you are going to be dealing with lots of torso infections. Even in A16 I've occasionally lost pawns to those, because there's nothing you can do except pump them full of medicine and penoxy and hope for the best.
In the current build, 0.17.1529, it's pretty much 50/50 (science!) that somebody gets infected after a raid. Even my megatherium got infected (don't ask)! The only sure-fire solution so far is bed rest.
I'm on day 14 and my starting meds are seriously depleted, to the point where I have already made decisions about who's going to make it and who's not, but I've been playing around and found that doctor care without meds on infections is enough as long as your patient stays in bed. Even with blood everywhere and dirt floors, the margin is quite forgiving for errors in having somebody too far away to apply care when it comes due.
Oh, there's also self-tend in A17 now, so you can take care of a couple ways. Obviously, this doesn't apply over 85% when your patient is totally incapacitated, but I'd imagine at that point you're watching fairly closely to see if you need to strip them before they die.
This will only get easier as medical beds and more sanitary conditions are created. But most definitely, you can no longer have your doctor bandage somebody and expect them to immediately resume their mining or chopping up raider corpse duties.
IMO all diseases in the game should always be possible to survive if caught at the right time and treated with care, even for unlucky situations like no-medecine, self-treated pawns with heart conditions (as an example of something I had to deal with recently). Treat the wound/disease and keep them in bed, fed and in a clean room and they should not die. Otherwise it just becomes an exercise in frustration. Maybe I'm in the minority but I believe that punishment should only be meted out when mistakes are made. A poor RNG roll and bam, I lose my only pawn who will stomach hauling = dead colony. Dead colonies are fine if you learn something in the process, but you learn nothing apart from that RNG sucks in these circumstances.
Edit: While we're at it can we please please get rid of 'incapable of dumb labour". Every pawn I get seems to have this stupid trait. Why not make it more like 'brawler', which has a mood debuff if forced to use ranged weapons. Make it so a snooty pawn gets upset if forced to lug things around - I'm fine with managing moods - but it really irks me when my only hauler is incapacitated and my colony grinds to a halt and everyone starves because my guys are all too stubborn to perform this most basic task.
I've easily been able to cure 95% of any infections with just herbal medicine and a decent doctor (come to think of it, one of them wasn't even that decent). Do you guys who have problems with this have really really terrible doctors or something? Also, keep your hospital clean. (That means 'clean' as in not just sterile tiles, but also that there isn't dirt\blood\puke\whatever all over the place). Right now it feels like it's just serious enough to warrant building a real hospital to avoid complications. No need to nerf it further.
Quote from: giltirn on May 07, 2017, 11:25:28 AM
IMO all diseases in the game should always be possible to survive if caught at the right time and treated with care, even for unlucky situations like no-medecine, self-treated pawns with heart conditions (as an example of something I had to deal with recently). Treat the wound/disease and keep them in bed, fed and in a clean room and they should not die. Otherwise it just becomes an exercise in frustration. Maybe I'm in the minority but I believe that punishment should only be meted out when mistakes are made. A poor RNG roll and bam, I lose my only pawn who will stomach hauling = dead colony. Dead colonies are fine if you learn something in the process, but you learn nothing apart from that RNG sucks in these circumstances.
This is only true if you think this is a game meant to be won. If it's a story generator, then those RNG tragedies are just fine. Of course there does need to be a balance, and that is the line Tynan tries to find I believe.
Quote from: ReZpawner on May 07, 2017, 11:29:44 AM
I've easily been able to cure 95% of any infections with just herbal medicine and a decent doctor (come to think of it, one of them wasn't even that decent). Do you guys who have problems with this have really really terrible doctors or something? Also, keep your hospital clean. (That means 'clean' as in not just sterile tiles, but also that there isn't dirt\blood\puke\whatever all over the place). Right now it feels like it's just serious enough to warrant building a real hospital to avoid complications. No need to nerf it further.
Despite wild healroot spawns (which only exist in certain biomes), you quickly go through all medicines unless you have someone with 8 in growing to sow it. If you don't specifically roll for a skilled grower at the beginning you will most likely be spending many months without healroot.
Quote from: BlackSmokeDMax on May 07, 2017, 11:30:21 AM
This is only true if you think this is a game meant to be won. If it's a story generator, then those RNG tragedies are just fine. Of course there does need to be a balance, and that is the line Tynan tries to find I believe.
Like I said, I'm fine with failure if there is a lesson to be learned. But what is the point in investing so much effort into something that a fickle RNG God will eventually decide to wipe out? "Bob landed, contracted malaria within a month and died. The End." Sounds pretty boring to me. No, I'd much rather a story where a colony used guts and guile to overcome a seemingly endless stream of disasters.
giltirn:
Perhaps the lesson you could have learned was make sure you have more than a single hauler? Maybe trade for medicine as often as you can, until you can readily supply it yourself? There are rarely situations where you can't have done anything better; when there are, they're usually early enough in the campaign that you're not losing much.
I had malaria strike two colonists at the same time last night; No big deal, as I'd been hoarding my good medicine pretty tightly; Except one of those colonists was almost two days away, on a quick caravan to a neighbor. (That seems like a bug, btw? How is malaria hitting two colonists who are literally days of travel apart from each other?) So I had that colonist buy a few shitty herbal meds and self-treat; Unfortunately, I had to wait until she'd gotten a full tile away from the camp she was visiting before I could "settle", self-treat, form a new caravan, abandon base and move on. After doing this a couple times, she made it back (after a manhunting pack of two rats; FML) at around 60% infection, where it was a damned nail-biter for my doc to break out the good meds and treat her; Luckily her room was spotless, as I hadn't yet built a dedicated medical facility; That happened as soon as both of my colonists were back on their feet (the other had a sad-wander break at about 98% immunity, so that wasn't good, but he survived just fine)
Quote from: giltirn on May 07, 2017, 11:36:24 AM
Like I said, I'm fine with failure if there is a lesson to be learned.
Was there any point in that game where you had the option to
NOT capture/rescue one more mouth to feed who wouldn't haul? Or did you have your same starting pawns the whole playthrough? Sounds more like it's the story of "Bob, Dick, and Jane landed. Dick and Jane wanted to play horseshoes while Bob did all the work. Jill wandered into the compound, seeing there was free meals, and because they had an uneven number they had to recruit Jack the raider because silly Bob wouldn't join their horseshoe tournament. Bob got malaria and died. Everybody starved/froze to death."
Again, I have noticed it is much more brutal, but I've gotta ask if Bob was in bed with malaria or out in the fields doing "one last haul, ya bastard" with malaria. That 10% increase in immunity gain from even a shoddy bed makes a huge difference. I haven't personally seen malaria yet in A17, but I'm beating infections by a comfortable margin, and the other fellow above beat malaria with somebody who had to journey back home from another town.
What just killed my colony was sensory mechanites and a psychic drone. Ended up with 1 berzerk in my fridge, 1 person in a daze (freezing outside in bad clothing, already starving and exhausted), and the only female not affected by drone going to grab a quick bite and catching a chain shotgun blast instead. She bled out, pawn outside froze, berzerk guy eventually collapsed from exhaustion. Looking back, I
could have had my female arrest the dazed mostly-naked guy, forced her to eat raw rice from the barn or a frozen corpse or something, or
NOT had weapons equipped on people with Major Break warnings, but I didn't do any of those things. That's why they died.
Perhaps if I could have held out another 10 minutes I'd have gotten drop pods with something useful, like smokeleaf or beer or packaged meals or wool!
I can't help but die from an early game mad animal with infection, if the colonist(s) in question cannot doctor (because that negates self-care). That said, I can appreciate the increased risk of infection, I suppose I just wish I had a way to 'deal' with it under all conditions, even if that meant a heavy penalty.
I do have to admit, that given you have enough healthy doctors, the current infections aren't impossible to deal with. It has really made doctors feel special.
Hate to be a stickler, but even in the modern western world, the largest percentage of hiking deaths for years have been consistently attributable to three things: lack of knowledge, lack of experience, and poor judgment.
If a rich explorer runs off to start their own colony with 0 ability to tend wounds, or even worse, misgivings about modern medicine that cause them to not participate in any such practice, they're gonna have a bad time.
If you've crashlanded on an alien planet, and your only doctor gets kidnapped by raiders, you're gonna have a bad time.
[attachment deleted by admin due to age]
Quote from: ymc on May 07, 2017, 12:12:18 PM
Quote from: giltirn on May 07, 2017, 11:36:24 AM
Like I said, I'm fine with failure if there is a lesson to be learned.
Was there any point in that game where you had the option to NOT capture/rescue one more mouth to feed who wouldn't haul? Or did you have your same starting pawns the whole playthrough?
I did a single-pawn start with no starting items. The game decided to give me two crappy pawns who both decide they are too stuck up to haul even if they have to die for it. The only meds I had were the wild healroot because none of them were sufficiently skilled at growing. My base was sufficiently advanced that I had a dedicated, clean hospital room, a fridge room, 3 bedrooms and adequate defenses. I also had another guy who was a good doctor and grower but also who refused to haul, but he died soon after being rescued because he went berserk from his wounds and attacked a panther.
Oh yeah, and one more guy the game handed to me refused to do basically anything. Haul, fight, you name it. I made a solo caravan for him and sent him off to die in the wilderness; no way am I wasting my time for such losers.
Quote from: ymc on May 07, 2017, 12:12:18 PM
Again, I have noticed it is much more brutal, but I've gotta ask if Bob was in bed with malaria or out in the fields doing "one last haul, ya bastard" with malaria. That 10% increase in immunity gain from even a shoddy bed makes a huge difference. I haven't personally seen malaria yet in A17, but I'm beating infections by a comfortable margin, and the other fellow above beat malaria with somebody who had to journey back home from another town.
Oh yes, and Bob was in bed as soon as malaria appeared, for the entire time, and treated every time by a skill 6 doctor with herbal meds the instant he required tending. I micro'd the hell out of it, and still he died.
So you started with the roughest possible starting scenario, with absolutely no RNG-mitigation built in, and you weren't expecting to fail, repeatedly? Lemme guess, Randy Random too?
That's the sort of scenario you choose because you want to tell the story about about how you survived against all odds... But most of the time, you're just going to lose.
Cassandra rough.
And I just lost 2 guys to infection from some rabbit bites. This totally sucks. If this is not changed I don't see the community being particularly happy about A17.
Edit: I think that's me done with A17 testing. Way too frustrating.
Quote from: DariusWolfe on May 07, 2017, 02:38:09 PM
So you started with the roughest possible starting scenario, with absolutely no RNG-mitigation built in, and you weren't expecting to fail, repeatedly? Lemme guess, Randy Random too?
That's the sort of scenario you choose because you want to tell the story about about how you survived against all odds... But most of the time, you're just going to lose.
If you don't cheese your rolls, after a few months once you have gone through your initial meds you will be in the same situation as me even if you started with rich explorer or crash landed.
Cheese my rolls?
I've got a year-long Vanilla crash-landed that's doing quite well. My colonists aren't ideal, but they're okay; I divide labor up so that they get good at their specialties, and they all get basic competence in the grunt work.
Two cannot haul, one is staggeringly ugly, and only two are even vaguely competent with a gun; I've got one doctor, one cook; the rest would bandage a nearby tree trunk by accident or regularly burn water.
So, tell me again how I'd end up in the same situation? I'm not even good at this game.
Quote from: DariusWolfe on May 07, 2017, 04:41:34 PM
Cheese my rolls?
I've got a year-long Vanilla crash-landed that's doing quite well. My colonists aren't ideal, but they're okay; I divide labor up so that they get good at their specialties, and they all get basic competence in the grunt work.
Two cannot haul, one is staggeringly ugly, and only two are even vaguely competent with a gun; I've got one doctor, one cook; the rest would bandage a nearby tree trunk by accident or regularly burn water.
So, tell me again how I'd end up in the same situation? I'm not even good at this game.
The situation I was referring to is having no meds then losing multiple people to infections. Perhaps you had a skilled grower capable of seeding healroot?
Only just, and it's still too cold to get started. I've had okay luck with wild healroot, but I've only harvested maybe a dozen, and bought half that again. I don't use any meds at all for initial injury healing, but I keep them ready in case of infections.
I probably would have lost at least one person to the malaria if I didn't have the real meds on hand, but that's what I meant by having RNG-mitigation. Since I only break out the meds when I really need to, I'm likely to survive anything that doesn't straight-out kill my pawns, until I can finally get my medicine production up and running.
I've noticed that a large number of effectiveness rolls for bandaging without meds are coming up 0%. This perhaps explains the fatality rate for treating disease without meds; most bandages may as well not be there at all. Is this intended?
It sounds like someone has cast "Foul Air" on Rimworld a17:
Death:
Thau 6 Foul Air D5A1 75
Any unit that gets wounded will automatically gain the Diseased affliction. Unrest increases worldwide.
I suppose this also explains why bubonic plague kills 100% of untreated colonists and 50% of treated instead of only 50% and 10% respectively.
Having skipped A16, I can say I'm not experiencing much difference in A17 in regards to infections. Making sure I actually clean every room I put the wounded colonist, which includes any blood they spilled on the ground while being bandaged, makes infections rather rare for me. Greatest contributor to infections is dirty surroundings in my experience, not bandage quality.
I get the feeling that it also depends on the source of the cut. My colonist who got bitten by rabbits got infected in three organs simultaneously, and another colonist also bitten also got infected. However none of my guys who got cut up in raids got infections. It may be anecdotal but it does make sense that animal bites are more likely to cause infections, and if this is indeed true then perhaps my ire towards the infection mechanics is misdirected.
When it comes to getting infected, the trick normally lies within tend
quality, and how
quickly you tend to the infected individual.
(http://i.imgur.com/XGLyhBd.png) | This chart can be used as a visual aid. A pawn with 100% blood filtration will develop immunity to an infection at a fairly decent rate. Standard immunity gain is represented by the black dots with the white outline. Pawns with less blood filtration are not represented in this graph. No worries, though! Because math is here to save us all!
The following equation can be used to determine the necessary average treatment quality for any given pawn:
Variables | Equation: ATQ = (-((60000 - TBT)(0.66 * BF)/60000)+0.84)/0.53
Average Tend Quality = ATQ
Ticks (time) Between Tends = TBT
Blood Filtration = BF
If you play with these numbers a bit, you'll notice just how important the time between each tend is! If you're quick, you can get away with an average tend quality of around 34%. But, if you neglect your colonists for even one in-game hour, the minimum you can get away with goes up to about 40%. Two hours between tends, and you need an average of at least about 44.5%. If your doctor decides to go to sleep for 8 hours right as the infected pawn needs to be tended again, your required average tend quality shoots up to 75.5%! That is, I think, a worst-case scenario. But, the chance for it to happen exists. So, I thought it was important to mention.
Ideally, pawns shouldn't have to come so close to death, given modern (normal) medicine as well as some basic knowledge of how to use it.
|
I'm going to be doing some in-game testing to see how difficult it is to achieve these tend qualities in a normal playthrough, soon :D
I would also like to suggest a sort of "tend difficulty" that can be assigned to different hediffs.
A lvl 5 doctor with modern medicine could tend a standard infection rather well.
But, that same doctor with that same medicine might not be able to tend the plague as easily.
Essentially, adding the possibility for some diseases to be more easily treated by lower-tier medicine than others.
Hopefully that makes sense...
It would help with ease of balance, I think. :)
Sorry, I haven't read the whole discussion, but has anyone experienced this?
(http://i.imgur.com/7Dt0RUJ.jpg)
My colonist died of the infection when the immunity was above the infection %;
Is this WAD? Dosen't seem fair at all
Without seeing the pre-death numbers I'm only guessing, but I believe that can happen of consciousness or some other vital stats drop too low, due to combined injuries or conditions. I think it may have been an "unintended side effect" but deemed reasonable by Tynan when it was brought up before.
The torso was damaged 30%, equally decreasing efficiency
The infection brought torso efficiency down 70%
0% torso efficiency = 100% death
So he died from his injuries (helped by the infection).
BTW, I haven't had any trouble with infections yet, and I've had plenty of foxbites and bullet holes. I think you just have to make sure you treat your colonists right away with herbal medicine.
Or maybe playing in a -20'C biome helps?
Quote from: O Negative on May 30, 2017, 08:42:17 PM
The torso was damaged 30%, equally decreasing efficiency
The infection brought torso efficiency down 70%
0% torso efficiency = 100% death
That makes alot of sense. I'll have to patch them up better. I had only a few infections, but they scared me. For me it's good that they are back.
So far in A17, I am just ordering pawns to self-tend ASAP after fights. Occasionally they get infected, but insta-bedrest and tending even without meds is usually enough to get them to 100% immunity before infection gets there (it's close though). For these situations herbal meds and halfway decent medical skill will do the job easily enough, no need to use meds on any little injury.
Also so far in A17, early game disease is still broken for lost tribes. Broken in the sense that you absolutely must do one of 1) put yourself near outworld colonies for trade or 2) get lucky with penoxy or at least medicine from wandering traders early on.
Since plague can hit you inside 1-2 seasons, researching for making penoxy is completely impossible; this stuff is hitting before a 600 cost tech (stoneworking) is done sometimes. At least if you slap yourself near a settlement you can make a short run for either penoxy (if available) or medicine (buy + forbid, save it for critical stuff), but it sucks that we STILL have to do this to avoid nigh instant-game over for half or more of colony pawns on RNG.
Without the BS disease proc super early you can get by against other stuff with using herbal meds sparingly just fine.
Quote from: Listen1 on May 30, 2017, 06:09:22 PM
Sorry, I haven't read the whole discussion, but has anyone experienced this?
My colonist died of the infection when the immunity was above the infection %;
Is this WAD? Dosen't seem fair at all
Just happened to me too.
(https://imgur.com/a/rCTyu)
https://imgur.com/a/rCTyu
My Colonist (normal rest/ not forced) started to wander around at infection zero percent and because it was early I chose to wait until he would recover, but wasn't, so at 50% I sent a club wielder to knock him out to force him to bed, but got surprised the infection killed my pawn at an even value. I was surprised by this mechanism that I reloaded an autosave. First time I lost a pawn before Infection reached 100%.
The replies that you got are unclear to me but I will just make sure to bed them anyways. First time I reload a game. Kinda sucks to lose a pawn just because of a mini detail unawareness after all the colony had gone through.
Chances are the extra club dmg was just enough to knock him under the threshold :(
Quote from: O Negative on May 30, 2017, 08:42:17 PM
The torso was damaged 30%, equally decreasing efficiency
The infection brought torso efficiency down 70%
0% torso efficiency = 100% death
I also think it was a combination of factors. I mean, look - moderate blood loss, extreme infection, several wounds, malnutrition, dirty hospital...
There are lots of factors in regards to infections. Bed and room bonuses are really important so sterile tiles and Hospital beds as soon as reasonably possible. High quality normal beds can also buff immunity gain as well as help with avoiding mental breaks.
As said previously tending asap is very important I never hesitate to wake my best doctor up to go and do the rounds of the hospital treating everyone. Keep the janitor cleaner on task as well. If you keep on top of things (you can read this as micro manage if you like) even plagues can be handled early on.
Yeah efficiency is new in A17, it is a representation of body part HP. An infection past 87% applies -70% efficiency, in other words you could say it applied 28 damage to the torso (adult human torso has 40hp).
To survive infections it is important to have the patient stay in bed and keep him fed, to keep the immunity gain speed up. Treatments do nothing for the immunity gain speed, they only slow down the infection speed, so your goal is to slow down the infection enough for immunity to overtake it and reach 100% first.
If you re low on medicine you could treat with medicine until the immunity rate is higher than the infection rate and then treat without medicine, that depends on your doc skill though :P
Quote from: Panzer on September 07, 2017, 04:24:58 AM
If you re low on medicine you could treat with medicine until the immunity rate is higher than the infection rate and then treat without medicine, that depends on your doc skill though :P
That's what I usually do -- give them a dose of medicine when the infection first shows up, then treat without medicine after that. Which even makes medical sense. You're swatting the infection down enough for the patient's immune system to handle after that.
And yes, all injured pawns go to bed *immediately* after combat. The faster their wounds heal the less likely an infection is to occur anyway. (My guess is that if an injury heals before the infection becomes visible the infection is deleted?)
Quote from: O Negative on May 10, 2017, 03:06:17 AM
When it comes to getting infected, the trick normally lies within tend quality, and how quickly you tend to the infected individual.
(http://i.imgur.com/XGLyhBd.png) | This chart can be used as a visual aid. A pawn with 100% blood filtration will develop immunity to an infection at a fairly decent rate. Standard immunity gain is represented by the black dots with the white outline. Pawns with less blood filtration are not represented in this graph. No worries, though! Because math is here to save us all!
The following equation can be used to determine the necessary average treatment quality for any given pawn:
Variables | Equation: ATQ = (-((60000 - TBT)(0.66 * BF)/60000)+0.84)/0.53
Average Tend Quality = ATQ
Ticks (time) Between Tends = TBT
Blood Filtration = BF
If you play with these numbers a bit, you'll notice just how important the time between each tend is! If you're quick, you can get away with an average tend quality of around 34%. But, if you neglect your colonists for even one in-game hour, the minimum you can get away with goes up to about 40%. Two hours between tends, and you need an average of at least about 44.5%. If your doctor decides to go to sleep for 8 hours right as the infected pawn needs to be tended again, your required average tend quality shoots up to 75.5%! That is, I think, a worst-case scenario. But, the chance for it to happen exists. So, I thought it was important to mention.
Ideally, pawns shouldn't have to come so close to death, given modern (normal) medicine as well as some basic knowledge of how to use it.
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I'm going to be doing some in-game testing to see how difficult it is to achieve these tend qualities in a normal playthrough, soon :D
I would also like to suggest a sort of "tend difficulty" that can be assigned to different hediffs.
A lvl 5 doctor with modern medicine could tend a standard infection rather well.
But, that same doctor with that same medicine might not be able to tend the plague as easily.
Essentially, adding the possibility for some diseases to be more easily treated by lower-tier medicine than others.
Hopefully that makes sense...
It would help with ease of balance, I think. :)
Does this assume bedrest? I suspect it doesn't, since I can routinely have normally healthy pawns survive infection via bedrest + no medicine at all, and that gives lower tend quality than you suggest is required to survive.
I've even done start-with-nothing scenarios where my lone pawn got infected with 7 skill in medicine and was able to self-tend into not dying. Disease progress was ~93% when I hit immunity since the tend quality was pretty junky...certainly below 40% on average.
Edit: I don't like the idea of making plague basically auto-kill to herbal meds again. Tribes need some kind of counterplay to that or to not get plague in first 1-2 seasons. Right now living is possible if you are really precise with tend timings + have medicine stored next to diseased pawns.
Using Penoxycyline huh? FU players!
(https://imgur.com/a/hzxaX)
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