So I started a new colony in a17... and discovered my old tricks work really badly. No more leaping out from behind a door and stabbing random wanderers with shivs, no more waiting for attackers to break up and then gunning them down individually. The AI seems very good at protecting raiders from being spilt up and piecemealed...
...which is unfortunate, because killboxes still work just fine. Build a box, fill it with turrets, laugh as everything that walks in dies. My colonists don't even get much of a chance for target practice.
What early game combat tactics are effective when your pawns are walking around with short bows and scrounged pistols? I gave up on my tribal colony when three scythers showed up and started blowing limbs off my guys armed with great bows. But my current crashlander colony would handle them just fine thanks to the turret pile. What options am I missing in between?
Three behind a wall with a one-space opening. They'll funnel in one at a time. Not so good vs multiple guns.
Deadfall traps in the path of the enemy, with plenty of doors to re-arm them. Can't have your peons dying to your own shenanigans. Making the traps out of stone is better than making them out of wood. Bonus is that sappers look for turrets (major) and walls (minor) when avoiding your "defenses". They don't seem to count traps at all. Place a few turrets in areas to prevent sappers from pathing there, lure them to their death in a line of traps.
For combat, post the initial trapstorm: wall-sandbag-wall-sandbag-wall-sandbag-wall. They will walk onto the sandbag to initiate combat, and you can have two to one on a large scale when fighting them down.
personally, I'm not a huge fan of conventional "walk out a pathway into ten turrets gunning you down" killboxes.
Hmmm, traps do sound like an effective way to survive the first few weeks while researching up to turrets... and then eventually when my economy is built up I can switch from turrets to assault rifles. I guess I'm just whining because I miss the fun of shiving them.
I play without turrets, in a valley, and make all of my buildings separate. In the early game, I move around my base in a way that I can still pick raiders off.
So, no. Killboxes aren't absolutely necessary. You just have to weight combat advantages more carefully now.
How do you work that so you have 4 or 5 guys behind cover shooting at one without the others showing up almost immediately to shoot back?
Quote from: Shurp on June 07, 2017, 01:40:17 AM
How do you work that so you have 4 or 5 guys behind cover shooting at one without the others showing up almost immediately to shoot back?
I have a main building with multiple exits.
My people wait in there for the raiders to start causing a ruckus in other parts of my base. Some raiders decide to attack walls or doors, while others decide to burn my crops to the ground, and some take pot shots at the small (hard to hit) animals I've tamed.
When I can, I prioritize ganging up on a raider armed with a ranged weapon in a flurry of fisty cuffs. 4 v 1 certainly isn't fair, but it gets the job done ;) Once they're down, the other raiders make their way towards me, and I head back inside the main building. The raiders start banging stuff up again, and I just kind of rinse and repeat.
Mind you, the only weapons my people are equipped with right now are short bows (good+ quality) and I have 2/8 pawns that are incapable of violence. Both of them are actually doctors, so it works out. Whenever somebody gets hurt, I bring them back into the main building and patch them up so they don't bleed to death or get severe blood loss while they fight.
Preventing blood loss, I've found, is actually pretty crucial in A17. Blood loss sticks around a lot longer than it used to, and the effects it has on a pawn's ability to fight is substantial.
If my current colony doesn't die soon, I'll try to post a screenshot :D
I tend to play long games (my A16 settlement had 50 colonists and about two to three decades on planet). For this Killboxes are absolutely mandatory.
I have been wanting to build an open colony for some time, the trouble is Tynan seems hell bent on killing all humans. Every patch the attackers seem to get better, or defences getting weaker. The last positive defence we got was the traps, however many years ago that was.
Admittedly I've not gotten to the point where I'm willing to waste time and money form my colony on mortars, I hear they've been improved.
Hell, I've recently worked out a new defence strategy but I'm loathe to post it here, as I suspect it'll be removed in the next patch. Granted I can live without it, but it makes certain events so much less dull, and gives more options.
Well, or you can just abuse animalss, like in previous versions. If you are playing on maps, which can support lots of animals, you can just make a meat shield out of them and just don't care anymore, including infestations. With 100+ fight-capable animals, you just draft your handlers, release the animals and watch or provide firesupport. Combined with mortars, you are basically untochable in mid+late game, plus you usually have enough meat form killed animals and occasional manhunters.
Quote from: O Negative on June 07, 2017, 03:27:22 AM
When I can, I prioritize ganging up on a raider armed with a ranged weapon in a flurry of fisty cuffs. 4 v 1 certainly isn't fair, but it gets the job done ;) Once they're down, the other raiders make their way towards me, and I head back inside the main building. The raiders start banging stuff up again, and I just kind of rinse and repeat.
This is what I used to do in a16, but it seems in a17 they're much better about not splitting up and letting me beat them to death. It seems very hard to game them. Or maybe my base layout isn't conducive. I do have everything bottled up so when they broke into my workshop they had way too much stuff there to smash to be much interested in attacking anything else. I guess you have to spread out your goodies and leave them unprotected to lure them away?
Quote from: Shurp on June 07, 2017, 08:24:54 PM
This is what I used to do in a16, but it seems in a17 they're much better about not splitting up and letting me beat them to death. It seems very hard to game them. Or maybe my base layout isn't conducive. I do have everything bottled up so when they broke into my workshop they had way too much stuff there to smash to be much interested in attacking anything else. I guess you have to spread out your goodies and leave them unprotected to lure them away?
They are a lot smarter now, yeah. Their reaction time to their friends being hurt has been improved substantially.
And yeah, you do have to spread out your goodies a bit more. Not necessarily unprotected. The only unprotected goodies I ever have are my crops. They're always big enough to last me two harvests in the late game, so I'm never worried about a blight or anything like that.
I noticed, however, that the AI is a lot worse against mortars. When the pawns are marching towards the base and anyone of them gets hit by the mortar, all of them will fall back and start wandering around the on who was hit for a while. If you manage to land two or more hits near the center of their group, it's usually the end of that raid.
You can survive crashlanded or rich explorer scenarios without killboxes/ traps/ turrets. It requires more manpower and micro.
On my tribal colony deadfall traps helped surviving the first year, you can certainely do it without traps but then it's a festival of doordancing and heavy micro.
But traps are OP, so i usually set the limit to 1 or 2 traps per colonist. it also help to secure your colony while you send caravans on the road.
I have built a circular base for my latest playthrough - pretty much like this design:
http://www.cropcircleanswers.com/TWI9_Fig7_280.jpg
Where the black lines are in the middle of the circle, I have corridors. I basically wait for the attack and depending on where I can pick off raiders I just get my pawns to attack. A circular design works well as the raiders spread out and attack different areas of the base.
I don't remember this from the patch notes, but traps seem much better than before. Any material can make a decent trap now as the spring chance seems to have been unified in A17.
Quote from: Spocklw on June 08, 2017, 05:14:14 AM
I noticed, however, that the AI is a lot worse against mortars. When the pawns are marching towards the base and anyone of them gets hit by the mortar, all of them will fall back and start wandering around the on who was hit for a while. If you manage to land two or more hits near the center of their group, it's usually the end of that raid.
Add some sort of "seek shelter" behavior, and this'd be almost realistic. Aside from the instant panic reflex of "get the hell outta here!" coherent reactions after getting hit with mortars/artillery pretty much don't happen.
Source: 4 years as a Forward Observer; The run-around-like-ants thing even happens with simulated artillery, though to a lesser extent (since there's no shellshock, blood or screaming)
You can't really seek shelter vs mortars in-game though, since nothing resists them but overhead mountains and it's unlikely much of that is available to the raiders.
Combat panic in general isn't really modeled into the game...basically everyone fights until they die or get incapped, though wimps drop fast. Considering most pawns don't have a military background it's safe to say we're just abstracting that out with miss% or something lol.
Mortars seem a little better than before but I'm finding even 6+ of them a bit unreliable for most tasks.
That's true, and shrapnel isn't really a thing, either; IRL, if you (or your vehicle, or your bunker) are directly hit by mortars/artillery, you're fooked, but that's actually pretty rare; But even being near an IDF strike is generally pretty nasty, a LOT more common, and that's usually what you're seeking cover from.
If mortars could be controlled as a group, I think you'd find them more than sufficient for just about any task; Anything more than "fire all now" though, and I think you'd be getting well into dedicated mod territory.
Hm. I've been toying with the idea of learning to mod Rimworld, so this might be the gap I could fill...
I thought you could hold fire and target ground with mortars in vanilla? In principle this would allow you to control fire with any number of them if you pause-buffer and have micromanagement patience (not my forte' for sure).
My issue with that is even when ground targeting they're wildly inaccurate. I've seen 3+ shells in a row miss so far off target that the original targeted tile doesn't get even a piece of the blast.
I haven't played with them much since A17 (though I should, since they're supposedly much improved; I hated them in A16-) but all reports say that they're fairly accurate now, when targeted; So much so that I think they're probably more accurate than real-world mortars (as opposed to artillery, which fires at low-angle whenever possible, and is therefore generally more accurate)
Trying to micro might work, but as I think they only start loading when you give them a fire order, you'd have to have pawns who can load at pretty similar speeds to be able to get any proper volleying; But 3+ mortars firing at the same point at the same time should be able to utterly terrorize anything at or near that point.
I'll play around with it soon, and see what it looks like, before I really put any thought into trying to mod it; I do know that there's a lot I'd like to see, regardless, such as a switch from multiple mortar-types/1 round-type to 1 mortar/multiple round-types as well as the addition of some sort of observer mechanic (inaccurate as shit unless you've got a pawn with eyes on the target).
Quote from: DariusWolfe on June 08, 2017, 01:46:06 PMSource: 4 years as a Forward Observer; The run-around-like-ants thing even happens with simulated artillery, though to a lesser extent (since there's no shellshock, blood or screaming)
[off-topic]
Orly? In a FIST M113 with Armored Cav., or some other type of utterly crazy bastard? I was Mech. Infantry; the FIST guys were our main drinking buddies (ALWAYS keep your FOs happy with you!) ^^' ...
[/off-topic]
Quote from: Bozobub on June 08, 2017, 05:04:13 PM
Quote from: DariusWolfe on June 08, 2017, 01:46:06 PMSource: 4 years as a Forward Observer; The run-around-like-ants thing even happens with simulated artillery, though to a lesser extent (since there's no shellshock, blood or screaming)
[off-topic]
Orly? In a FIST M113 with Armored Cav., or some other type of utterly crazy bastard? I was Mech. Infantry; the FIST guys were our main drinking buddies (ALWAYS keep your FOs happy with you!) ^^' ...
[/off-topic]
Little bit on the M113-chassis when I was in the NG, but got upgraded to the BFIST when I went back to AD. So like, an actual 11M, or an 11B shoved into the back of a magnesium firetrap? Did my time in an Infantry Company, but got shunted up to an STB before deployment. Didn't do my job once downrange, but that works for me; I'm a 25B now, and it's much more my speed.
I was an 11M, a SAW gunner to be specific (never saw actual combat, thankfully). I coulda gone arty, but I chose Mech when asked and I wanted to go to Germany, so it was gonna happen anyway. DAMN good choice, I hated sandbags! We had old-school Korea-vintage M-113s (Germany) for both our infantry and FIST unit, although theirs were of course a lot spiffier.
The main armor on M-113s and Bradleys is aluminum, btw, not magnesium, although it still burns rather easily and VERY hot, so *shrug* whatever; it's just not quite as ridiculously bright as burning Mg. The Russians had the magnesium armor on their BMPs... Always made me wince, thinking about it.
Hoo-rah and all that crap, but again, you guys were our closest friends in the Army, although we were friendlier with the tankers than Light Infantry types, as well. Something about breaking track in the muck is a great unifier, I guess ^^' . Good to see fellow freaking id-*cough*... PATRIOTIC CITIZENS about ;D!
Edit -> May you have (or get in the future) a pleasant, 9-5 job in the military and retire happy and underutilized! It's the best military blessing I know.
Magnesium is mostly a reference to the objections I heard from 11Bs about why they'd never want to be on a Brad; I never learned if there was any truth to it or not. I knew it was pretty much all aluminum on the 113s and 577s, tho'. I'll take my ol' DU-plated rolling fortress over either one of them any day of the week.
I was actually a tanker during my first enlistment, before I went NG and had to reclass. Came back AD as a 13, then reclassed again as a reenlistment option. If not for my break in service/NG time, I'd be eligible for retirement this year, but as it stands, I've got another 4+ 'til 20. All the same, not sure coming back was an idiotic decision; All my kids were born free of charge and have full medical coverage (without having to deal with the ACA/AHCA BS, yet) I've still got money to throw toward college, and I've got a skillset (since I left Combat Arms) that I can easily apply out in the civilian world, once I finish up my tour; Two paychecks isn't gonna suck, either. Guess we'll see if I survive the next 4, first.
...anyway, that's enough OT for now.
So getting back on topic (since Rimworld doesn't have armored vehicles, with or without magnesium plating), I discovered another fantastic thing about turrets. If you only have 6 pawns, and you want to send a caravan to another outpost to trade, it's no problem! Send four pawns out, and leave two behind to turn on the turrets if anything dangerous shows up.
(If a ship part or mortar siege shows up this might not work, I need to research mortars)
Sending out caravans in the early game is just too dangerous without turrets... and is a great way to get more components... to build more turrets with!
Quote from: DariusWolfe on June 08, 2017, 03:21:11 PM
I haven't played with them much since A17 (though I should, since they're supposedly much improved; I hated them in A16-) but all reports say that they're fairly accurate now, when targeted; So much so that I think they're probably more accurate than real-world mortars (as opposed to artillery, which fires at low-angle whenever possible, and is therefore generally more accurate)
Trying to micro might work, but as I think they only start loading when you give them a fire order, you'd have to have pawns who can load at pretty similar speeds to be able to get any proper volleying; But 3+ mortars firing at the same point at the same time should be able to utterly terrorize anything at or near that point.
I'll play around with it soon, and see what it looks like, before I really put any thought into trying to mod it; I do know that there's a lot I'd like to see, regardless, such as a switch from multiple mortar-types/1 round-type to 1 mortar/multiple round-types as well as the addition of some sort of observer mechanic (inaccurate as shit unless you've got a pawn with eyes on the target).
You are incorrect. The pawns load the mortars when you instruct them to "Man steep mortar"
It requires micromanaging but you just instruct a pawn or several to man each mortar wait until it says loaded and then release them. Then you just have the aiming and firing countdown to go through. The majority of the delay is considered "aiming or warmup time" and I don't remember the exact number but it is ~25 ish "seconds".
Quote from: Shurp on June 06, 2017, 10:18:29 PM
So I started a new colony in a17... and discovered my old tricks work really badly. No more leaping out from behind a door and stabbing random wanderers with shivs, no more waiting for attackers to break up and then gunning them down individually. The AI seems very good at protecting raiders from being spilt up and piecemealed...
...which is unfortunate, because killboxes still work just fine. Build a box, fill it with turrets, laugh as everything that walks in dies. My colonists don't even get much of a chance for target practice.
What early game combat tactics are effective when your pawns are walking around with short bows and scrounged pistols? I gave up on my tribal colony when three scythers showed up and started blowing limbs off my guys armed with great bows. But my current crashlander colony would handle them just fine thanks to the turret pile. What options am I missing in between?
I'm on my second game in A17, because I wanted more A16 time as update came too soon after I bought the game.
I had a Poison ship land near my front. I had two mortars I took from a previous siege, and had to be very careful to not destroy my own outer walls. My front has 5 exits, which I always like to separate by 15 tiles, but in this case was modified to adjust to this map features. Between these 5 exits, there's a mountain in between that makes the layout look like 2 exits to the left and 3 to the right.
Poison ship landed on the left side of my front. I only play Lost Tribe and had 3 bolt action rifle shooters, weapons I scavenged from raiders. I left two shooters at each left gates and set one from the right exit to go North of the mountain in between and manned both mortars to destroy the ship. Synchronized both mortars by holding fire so that they would shoot at the same time. The ship spawned two scythes, that went to attack the shooter that was North of the mountain. Once I realized they were after that pawn, I tried to make him run away to the North, but there was a new feature river with a side asphalt road but no path available which caused my colonists to expose and was shot down, I sent another from the right front exit for rescue, and found out Scythes are much smarter now to the point that they gave chase by making a full turn around the mountain, while in A16 they would return to "guard" they ship.
Because they gave chase, both shooters on the left gates managed to destroy the ship, but those exiting from the right gates got their limbs blasted off just like yours. Now I have two wounded colonists, one with a missing foot, the other with a shattered leg and a shot off eye. The first of the two scythes that gave chase, fell on a "lake" of traps (wood).
Summary, I still feel Tynan needs to balance the scenarios better, as it feels like Lost Tribe adversities are equal to Crashlanded, without any consideration towards tribal players.
But, so far, I have never gone to play Killbox neither in A16 nor A17.
I do see raiders splitting, but instead of shiving them as you do, I do bow attacks and they don't seem to have had their AI improved.
http://imgur.com/ZR74p09
AFAIK lost tribe adversities ARE equal, the only differential being the usual grace period --> colony wealth/# of colonists.
That said, aside from the "oops, you lose" stuff like pre-cooler heat waves I'd rather not see them get their hands held. They're intentionally the hardest scenario, and the only biome where it's nearly impossible to win is sea ice (doable with heavy abuses of cannibalism and +mood traits on extreme to buy time for steel drops/trades for a research bench, but we're talking heavy RNG and trait abuse there for what amounts to stalling your way into tech).
With good unit control and some game mechanic manipulation it is still possible for tribe tech to beat mech ships w/o taking damage, consistently. On extreme difficulty you're bending the mechanics a bit to accomplish it, but that's kind of the point :p.
I agree, Mechanoids "can" be handled by tribals. This case I sustained damage due to the unfamiliarity with A17's new river features, which I'm fine with as it is my second game since I updated the game. I just wish the sticks and stone period would last longer. Somebody else already sent me a pm of an existing mod that removes advanced factions. I found out about this game while talking with another guy about the Civilization series and I kinda want to feel the time progress slower, just like Civ.
Because I'm in Boreal Forest, I gave priority to Clothing but in less than 20 days in rich soil wasn't enough for me to harvest cotton...lol. My first plantation was rice. Just a different research sequence would probably helped me to get to Smiting and Machining earlier, were I would have felt more comfortable to fight Scythers. I just need to get used to A17 now.
On the high difficulties only in rare cases do I deviate from stonecutting --> electricity as tribal.
The raid numbers are such that you're either getting enough clothing and weaponry from raiders, or you're dead long before you're researching electricity or machining.
Getting raided by more attackers than you have defenders while they have guns and you have only primitive weapons is not an unusual scenario in the first season or two if you say start with 3 tribesmen. Since there are 5 raiders and 3 have guns to your 4 clubmen, if you win this encounter you will likely have one decent gun and a couple crappy ones. Repeat a few times and you have viable weapons.
If you get mechs before you even get guns, winning while guaranteed taking no damage usually involves crap like door abuse with good micro and deadfall traps. Annoying but doable.
Mandatory for what ? What is your goal when you play Rimworld ?
Quote from: b0rsuk on August 31, 2017, 01:32:27 PM
Mandatory for what ? What is your goal when you play Rimworld ?
It's not explicitly stated but OP language suggests a desire to make it to the late game with some consistency.
The answer is that you can do so, but without using deadfall traps or turrets some of the encounters are IRL time consuming, and whether that micro is worth doing compared to just making a killbox or trap corridor is up to the player.
And late game is what ?
Mechanoids can be destroyed by Lost Tribe, even in early game. It's probably best to poke the ship as soon as possible so it releases its load early (rather than growing with colony wealth... but it might be determined at the moment the ship falls). Either way you learn what's inside and can plan around it. Early ships tend to have pathetic crews.
Tribals have problems acquiring weapons, but they do well at taming animals. Scythers are surprisingly brittle and easily fall to concentrated blows. Animals act as meat shields and absorb many blows. Centipedes are terrifying in melee, though. You want to deal with them by separating them from scythers. Another thing that helps against scythers is deadfall traps near the ship, or where they will chase you. Hell, I had a centipede destroyed by a single steel deadfall trap! Head: destroyed.
I never was a fan of killboxes as they ruin my immersion in the game. Never had to really use any. Instead I'm defending my colony with roofed sandbag-wall-sandbag lines. Just like here on screen below (though that raid caught me with pants down immediately after dealing with the poison ship). I kept baiting them around, firing here and there. After a while I let them bash some door and enter straight into gunfire.
(http://i.imgur.com/uTcfRwE.png)
I've been taking a similar approach with the use of bunkers lately for defense.
In the past i used to have more urban defenses where the fight was done inside the village and i kept falling back between the houses.
The bunkers can be a good first line of defense however and both tactics are compatible.
You also have to make use of the cover mechanics and deny the enemy easy cover in case your bunker is overrun.
(http://i.imgur.com/s5JwLlt.jpg)
The extra layer of sandbags makes it more difficult for melee units to overrun you, and it also makes it so that the enemy can only use the sandbags as cover in case you fall back. They don't have any walls to hide behind which would give the highest cover value.
You can place turrets in the gaps between bunkers to deny them easy flanking opportunities.
All this does take quite a bit of resources and building time, so in the beginning i just build a few small U shaped one man bunkers scattered around the perimeter.
A defense like this however won't last forever, once you hit huge colonies and you get attacked by 50+ raiders you might get overrun, still testing things.
I use mortars to basically preemptively cause raiders to flee before they even reach my colony.