I recently got into Rimworld in A16, it's a great game, but the ONE thing I was really hoping they would fix in A17 didn't get fixed: Caravan Formation. A17 gave us a lot of great new reasons to FORM a Caravan but didn't make it much easier to actually form it, other than giving us the Caravan spot, so we can at least now decide where our Caravan will go to spaz out and act like idiots without actually getting on with it.
So I'd love to go and get that item stash nearby, but I can't, because my caravan won't form.
I normally don't play with mods, but if someone made a mod that just caused caravans to insta-form (like they do when re-forming after an encounter) I would probably take it.
The problem lies mostly in the way animals behave when waiting for the caravan. My observation is the steps are as follows:
1. Colonists run around touching every animal assigned to the caravan.
2. Animals follow colonists while they touch the rest of the animals.
3. Animals and colonists gather at the caravan spot (they wait for all animals/colonists to arrive before proceeding)
4. Colonists gather supplies and load them into pack animals
5. Animals and colonists wait again at the caravan spot
6. Everyone goes towards the edge of the map and waits there for every animal/colonist
7. Finally the caravan is formed.
This process is troublesome because of the waiting. So for example, the animals and people will be waiting at the caravan spot, and one animal will suddenly get hungry and go eat some grass nearby. Now the caravan has to wait for it. While it is coming back, another animal will get hungry, and go do the same thing. This can repeat over and over. If your caravan spot is far from any animal food, your caravan will never form. If your colony is under any duress, your caravan will never form.
I suggest the following modifications to the way caravans are formed:
1. All pack animals immediately move to the Caravan Spot. If animals are smart enough to obey zone assignments instantly they can obey caravan formation commands instantly without needing to be herded by colonists.
2. Colonists immediately start gathering supplies. They bring the supplies to pack animals that are already en-route to the caravan spot. If you put down a new caravan spot while the caravan is forming the pack animals move to the new spot automatically.
3. non-pack animals go about their business until the supplies are gathered. There is no need for them to do anything until everything is packed and the caravan is ready to go.
4. When all supplies have been gathered every colonist/animal moves to the edge of the map.
5. At no time is any caravan pawn waiting for any other pawn except at the very end when they gather at the edge of the map and depart all at once.
6. If an animal collapses due to starvation or whatever during the formation of the caravan, a notification appears, that animal gets automatically dropped from the caravan, and the caravan continues if it still has enough carrying capacity for all the supplies.
7. At no time is a caravan pawn "wandering". This is a bug. They should always be either moving, gathering supplies, eating, sleeping, performing prioritized work, or waiting at the edge of the map.
Are there plans to change the way caravans are formed in A18? In the mean time, are there any mods that address this issue?
I think they should just be insta-formed and be done with all the BS.
Quote from: mcreed on June 10, 2017, 02:17:14 PM
I think they should just be insta-formed and be done with all the BS.
Agreed.
I don't use caravans at all (or the world map) because I just don't think they're worth the effort right not, and while I understand the potential gameplay caravans bring to the game, I think most of it is currently being lost due to the time and hassle it takes to form them. As I don't see anything beneficial to gameplay or to the playing experience in the "forming" of caravans. Quite the opposite actually.
But if caravans were formed instantly my opinion of them would probably change 180^. They would likely need some rebalancing to account for the Pawn time saved, but from a player's and a "one less source of bugs" perspective, I can't see how insta-caravans wouldn't be an improvement.
Plus there is some precedence for this in the game already as when you sell stuff to visiting caravans neither their Pawns nor you own run around your base loading the items you sold, as they simply appear in the visiting caravan and disappear from your stockpile. So if that's acceptable for visiting caravans (and works great, as it's a nice and simple mechanic), then why the unnecessary complication for your own caravans? Doesn't make sense to me (and that's speaking as someone who usually prefers complex systems over simple ones in games. But sometimes keeping it simple is by far the best option, especially when it's not a central gameplay mechanic)
Hhhhhmmmm, that's got me curious now as to whether or not anyone actuals "likes" the forming a caravan process?
I agree that these are problems affecting playability that need to be addressed. In A16, I gave up on using caravans because every attempt to form one ended up with pawns flipping out before the animals were half loaded. The caravan forming spot IS a big step in the right direction, and I've been using caravans more in A17.
I would like to add to this list a couple things. First, it seems that animal/pawn current inventory is not completely accounted for and visible during formation. Second, animals should return to a caravan unloading spot when arriving back home. As it is now, I find that to get them unloaded in anything resembling an efficient manner, I need to assign the animals to an area and then manually force them to drop stuff.
One other thing that is a tremendous annoyance is the inability to modify caravan config/people/items during the formation process. I have to figure everything out in advance and hope I don't forget anything, or I have to cancel and start all over.
Actually, what I think I would like to see is an easy way to arbitrarily take any pack animal to a location and load it with chosen items. I'd also like to see pack animals used automatically by pawns to do more efficient hauling when a big cluster of resources needs to be moved at once. However, I'm not sure that such mechanics fit with Tynan's vision for the game.
As a related note, I think pod loading should also be able to be modified. I haven't used pods in A17 yet, but in A16 I also ran into issues where loading would never complete if my colonists consumed items that I had designated to be loaded. That could be addressed by putting those items off limits, or maybe removing them from the load manifest with a notice to the user (if it's still a problem).
I kind of like watching the pawns form a caravan...
Okay, I've only sent out a couple caravans, mainly with less than four pawns. (Including my sla-I mean, prisoner. Not my fault he doesn't want to join.)
That said, I could see how things might start getting annoying when there's a large number of pawns and/or pack animals.
Just the way I would (personally) like things to look in terms of caravan formation.
-Pawns would still gather things for the caravan.
--All things to be taken must be gathered by pawns.
-Only up to 4 of the largest (highest capacity) pack animals need to be loaded.
--Rest of the pack animals instantly loaded once the pawns have collected everything.
-Small animals (any non-pack animals) being sent in the caravan continue doing whatever they would normally do until up to 4 of the largest pack animals and all pawns are loaded.
-Only pawns, up to 4 of the largest pack animals, and up to 4 small animals need to convene at the caravan formation spot.
Once the 4 largest pack animals and all pawns are loaded, and the pawns, 4 largest pack animals, and 4 smaller animals are all at the caravan formation spot, all pawns and animals in the caravan move to the edge of the map, and the caravan is formed off-map.
(This would include the "magic" loading of smaller pack animals.)
This way, while the time delay and visual feedback in forming the caravan is mostly preserved, less annoyances in waiting for just one animal to eat.
Then again, without actually testing this behaviour, I don't really know if it would be better or not.
How about having a new tab for Caravan?
On this Caravan tab, we would be able to:
- Form a Caravan just like what we are doing now.
On the page for selecting people and animals, display relevant health info as well for easy viewing.
- Monitor the status when forming a Caravan.
To see how items are loaded, and most importantly be able to modify the list of items.
Hopefully this can save us from cancelling and reforming a Caravan if we miss out anything.
Quote from: Calahan on June 12, 2017, 04:04:57 AM
Quote from: mcreed on June 10, 2017, 02:17:14 PM
I think they should just be insta-formed and be done with all the BS.
Agreed.
...
Plus there is some precedence for this in the game already as when you sell stuff to visiting caravans neither their Pawns nor you own run around your base loading the items you sold, as they simply appear in the visiting caravan and disappear from your stockpile. So if that's acceptable for visiting caravans (and works great, as it's a nice and simple mechanic), then why the unnecessary complication for your own caravans?
I agree with all of this. Caravans would be far more usable if they simply insta-formed just like shipments to interstellar traders do. No one complains about a "lack of immersion" from not having to run around loading pods for the traders to beam up (well, not that I have seen, anyway). It's intuitively understood as a convenience mechanic that makes the game more playable and I believe it would work just as well for caravan formation.
Quote from: Smiling_Fish on June 14, 2017, 11:52:43 AM
...
- Monitor the status when forming a Caravan.
To see how items are loaded, and most importantly be able to modify the list of items.
Hopefully this can save us from cancelling and reforming a Caravan if we miss out anything.
Definitely need this for transport pod as well, unlike caravan, canceling transport pod will drop all the item on ground.
I definitely don't like the caravan forming process. I tend to limit my generated caravans to 1-2 pawns (usually 1) equipped to handle small raids with micro and carrying within that weight limit.
As a result I am usually just running stuff like scyther blades or pemmicans over to the local outlander settlement to buy regular medicine and maybe a sniper rifle/couple good firearms.
Loading lots of stuff is a real problem, especially when involving animals. The result is too much hassle for the payout right now.
With just pawns, caravan loading goes quickly. They go into the storage room, grab all the stuff, then head for the edge of the map. It's the animals that slows it down so much. So here's a crazy thought: What if the pack animals collected their own stuff? Lol
So instead of pawns grabbing the animals and taking them to the caravan spot, and then dragging stuff between the storage room and the animals, just have the animals head to the storage room and collect the stuff themselves. That would speed the process up immensely. As for the rest of the animals, they shouldn't join until the rest of the caravan has collected all their stuff and is ready to head off the map.
Although, I wouldn't be against instaforming caravans either. Lol
What if loading time is determined by weight of items getting loaded?
For example it takes 1 hour to load 50kg and I am forming a Caravan with 500kg of items, time required would be 500/50 = 10 hours.
Time will start counting when clicking "Accept" button on Caravan forming page. A status bar similar to the Research tab will appear to show % of process completed.
Caravan animals will gather at parking spot and items will be packed bit by bit automatically. Pawns would be doing their usual duties until packing complete.
When time is up the whole Caravan would start moving to exit map and start their journey.
Hope this can save all the mess but still keep the Caravan forming process.
This bothered me enough that I decided to go and learn how to mod Rimworld and make a mod that does most of the fixes in the OP. It was very hard.
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=33946.0
Caravans work fine for me in A17 easy to form and easy to load I am not sure what the issue is. All pawns with haul as priority 1 help to load and I am loading up to 5 Dromedaries with two to three pawns heading out and about. takes about 4 in game hours to form up.
Unloading is easy too. Just set an animal spot near your storage and send the animals there. They will get unloaded by haulers or you can quick dump directly.
If you need it to be easier than this maybe chess or checkers?
I bloody love it when someone with a post-count in the single digits/teens comes in here and says something like "git gud noob", especially when someone who's been playing forever is pointing out issues (not this case), and a freaking moderator is agreeing that it's an issue.
Yes, if you play it smart, it's considerably less an issue than if you don't micromanage how a caravan is formed. But there've been enough posts about caravan formation, and enough support in those various posts to suggest that maybe -just maybe- it's a problem.
If you can't figure out basic social graces, maybe you should go play checkers?
Quote from: DariusWolfe on June 27, 2017, 10:48:02 AM
I bloody love it when someone with a post-count in the single digits/teens comes in here and says something like "git gud noob", especially when someone who's been playing forever is pointing out issues (not this case), and a freaking moderator is agreeing that it's an issue.
Yes, if you play it smart, it's considerably less an issue than if you don't micromanage how a caravan is formed. But there've been enough posts about caravan formation, and enough support in those various posts to suggest that maybe -just maybe- it's a problem.
If you can't figure out basic social graces, maybe you should go play checkers?
Social graces, yep sure no worries. I prefer chess myself.
Guess I'll just fuck off and keep my opinion to myself and leave it to the people with the big post numbers to tell me how it is.
When your opinion amounts to "git gud noob", then that's an outstanding idea.
I also really enjoy watching caravan forming process.
Although if I have to choose between how does it look and how bugged it is as for now, I would prefer for it to instant.
I would suggest that caraving shouldn't be a process that can't be change while in progress. Also I think that it would be better if caravan forming was hauling job - meaning that animals are packed only by haulers(both animals who haul and pawns), while pawns who are not haulers but are included in caravan take items by themselvs.
And I would add priority - first haulers pack animals, when animals are packed, pawns who will be part of caravan will go take their items(if they take everythiang they need they will carry on to their dailt duties). When everyone has everything then were supposed to take, they group and will be ready to leave map(when they group there will be a new caravan tab, games will notify us if anything was change - for example pawn died and won't be part of caravan, or some items were mising and were not added - game will ask if we want to change or add any items - if we do, process starts from begining but without unpacking items we already hauled - when they finish process - they will group and game will ask us again what has change, what we are have taken and if we want to leave now.
Before all animals are packed all pawns will act normally and carry their daily duties. Same when they take items they will carry in caravan, when they finish gathering all they will just return to their normal job until rest caravan pawns finish gathering items.
Quote from: Gohihioh on June 27, 2017, 02:22:15 PM
I would suggest that caraving shouldn't be a process that can't be change while in progress.
This would be an excellent change; It's not uncommon for me to cancel a caravan then immediately reform because I forgot to grab something, or because while the loading was going on, something else I wanted to sell was produced.
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And I would add priority - first haulers pack animals, when animals are packed, pawns who will be part of caravan will go take their items(if they take everythiang they need they will carry on to their dailt duties).
I think this is already the case? I've always noticed they pack the animals first, then go get items for themselves to carry last.
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When everyone has everything then were supposed to take, they group and will be ready to leave map(when they group there will be a new caravan tab, games will notify us if anything was change - for example pawn died and won't be part of caravan, or some items were mising and were not added - game will ask if we want to change or add any items - if we do, process starts from begining but without unpacking items we already hauled - when they finish process - they will group and game will ask us again what has change, what we are have taken and if we want to leave now.
YES. This would be the best change. Load everything up, then wait to leave until told. In the mean-time, they'll go about their regular day, eating, joy activities, sleeping; While this could be exploited somewhat, I think the QoL changes this would make would outweigh any exploityness.*
* The only real exploits I can think of are:
1. using the caravan to move objects on the map, but this is already possible, merely annoying; Plus, why would this even be considered a bad thing? To limit exploityness, maybe give it a 10-12 hour time limit before the caravan auto-cancels.
2. Carrying items useful for combat; I've seen mentions of pawns being able to basically switch from melee to ranged while on caravan; But given that I feel that the Sidearms mod should be integrated into Vanilla, I don't know that I really consider this much of an exploit; Maybe give a movement/coordination penalty if carrying more than a few items.
Just add carry weight for inventory and encumber. When your pawns carry above certain weight they get debuff(movement speed at least). That way you can avoid many exploits and while caravan pawns would still be able to perform normal day task they would do it with lower efficency - so you would never want to wait too long with departue.
Quote from: Gohihioh on June 28, 2017, 02:22:30 PM
Just add carry weight for inventory and encumber. When your pawns carry above certain weight they get debuff(movement speed at least). That way you can avoid many exploits and while caravan pawns would still be able to perform normal day task they would do it with lower efficency - so you would never want to wait too long with departue.
There's already a carry weight limit for each pawn... but the caravan forming process is so hectic right now that sometimes two pawns will both simultaneously grab a big stack of bricks or whatever to put on the same alpaca and accidentally weigh the poor thing down with twice its carry capacity because they didn't check to see how much it would be carrying when the other guy's load was delivered. Right now carrying too much weight doesn't cause any problems, from what I can see, but if there were weight penalties then the loading process would have to be conducted more intelligently to avoid giving said penalties to the player through an AI derp, and that would probably slow it down, though not being a programmer I couldn't say by how much. So although it makes some sense, the idea gives me pause. Another reason why I favor caravan insta-formation, I guess.
If there was a caravan inventory stockpile type whose allowed contents were defined the same way the caravan loading screen is now (i.e. you select how many of what items to take out of the spreadsheet-like list of everything the colony has), then pawns could collect everything for the caravan via their normal routine and plop it down in the "loading area". That way they could stop to sleep, eat and do joy activities, as well as allow the animals to continue grazing/whatever while they're not needed.
Then, once everything was gathered you could click a menu item to insta-form the caravan and leave from that spot.
The loading stockpile would probably have to be defined as one per caravan, so you could have a Caravan 1 stockpile and a Caravan 2 stockpile going at the same time.
Quote from: Aerial on June 29, 2017, 08:39:39 AM
If there was a caravan inventory stockpile type whose allowed contents were defined the same way the caravan loading screen is now (i.e. you select how many of what items to take out of the spreadsheet-like list of everything the colony has), then pawns could collect everything for the caravan via their normal routine and plop it down in the "loading area". That way they could stop to sleep, eat and do joy activities, as well as allow the animals to continue grazing/whatever while they're not needed.
Then, once everything was gathered you could click a menu item to insta-form the caravan and leave from that spot.
The loading stockpile would probably have to be defined as one per caravan, so you could have a Caravan 1 stockpile and a Caravan 2 stockpile going at the same time.
This is actually brilliant. Best of both worlds.
Quote from: Aerial on June 29, 2017, 08:39:39 AM
If there was a caravan inventory stockpile type whose allowed contents were defined the same way the caravan loading screen is now (i.e. you select how many of what items to take out of the spreadsheet-like list of everything the colony has), then pawns could collect everything for the caravan via their normal routine and plop it down in the "loading area". That way they could stop to sleep, eat and do joy activities, as well as allow the animals to continue grazing/whatever while they're not needed.
Then, once everything was gathered you could click a menu item to insta-form the caravan and leave from that spot.
The loading stockpile would probably have to be defined as one per caravan, so you could have a Caravan 1 stockpile and a Caravan 2 stockpile going at the same time.
Seems like a fine solution to me.
one reason caravan creation is not instant, or significantly faster is its potential to allow a cheesy escape from a colony-ending raid.
the ability to grab EVERY item instantly in a caravan (it would be immobile, but who cares) that automatically appears in an adjacent hex would literally mean automatic "escape" button you could hit at any time.
I'm NOT trying to defend the starvation or extremely long loading time of a 1-2 pawn, several animal caravan, but merely pointing out the pitfalls in some of the proposed "solutions." The caravan stockpile would be pretty similar....those stockpiles could be the default that you use (stockpiles serve no purpose in the game other than to continually order colonists to haul items to them) for everything, and if a game-ending raid showed, then *poof* caravan is formed and running before the raid ever gets 2 steps onto the map.
You can still cheese raids by making a caravan. Even without any supplies it's safe once you leave.
AND IRL PEOPLE FROM BURNING VILLAGES BECAME REFUGEES.
So a running away mechanic makes sense, but it'd be nice if the raiders could claim your base.
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Quote from: Limdood on June 29, 2017, 09:53:35 PM
one reason caravan creation is not instant, or significantly faster is its potential to allow a cheesy escape from a colony-ending raid.
the ability to grab EVERY item instantly in a caravan (it would be immobile, but who cares) that automatically appears in an adjacent hex would literally mean automatic "escape" button you could hit at any time.
I can't speak for other people but when I say "auto-forming" I don't mean "teleports magically to the next hex." I still expect the people and animals in the caravan to physically walk off the map in the proper direction. I mean "skip all the stupid running around until everyone is starving and exhausted and about to mental break" packing stage that comes before it.
Also, you can already form a caravan to escape an especially dangerous raid, and I'm fine with that? You either have to abandon your colony site and become refugees, which would seem to be enough "punishment" for that choice, or if you wish to have a chance of retaining all the work and pawn-hours you put into whatever infrastructure you built there, you have to leave some pawns behind who will be at severe risk of death. Either way you will lose something.
I whole heartedly support the suggestions of OP, also this post could use a bump. I just had the situation of an overwhelming raid, while most of my colonists were on a world map mission. I decided to use my remaining colonists to save the most valuable items, the prisoners and animals and just flee my base. IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE. My 5 colonists were wasting all the precious time waiting for the god damn last chicken to arrive at the freaking gathering spot before they started to continue gathering the items and resources. When they started, the enemy was already over the walls. And when the first animal got shot the caravan assembling got canceled, thanks for that .... Now I don't want this to be instant, but they easily could have finished the assembly in time if they wouldn't need to wait for every damn animal to arrive. Just let them touch the animals, then go straight for picking up prisoners and resources. I am forced to save only 2 animals now to restart the population later In order to be able to flee the map.
One thing that should significantly speed up most caravan forming, while still retaining "realism", would be if instead of the pawns running back and forth between the caravan spot and wherever the next item to be loaded happens to be, they'd just bring the pack animals with them, and load them immediately when they pick the item up from the ground.
Perhaps this could even be done with a mod?
Quote from: HeadWar on February 13, 2018, 07:23:14 PM
One thing that should significantly speed up most caravan forming, while still retaining "realism", would be if instead of the pawns running back and forth between the caravan spot and wherever the next item to be loaded happens to be, they'd just bring the pack animals with them, and load them immediately when they pick the item up from the ground.
Perhaps this could even be done with a mod?
This is probably the best suggestion I have seen in regards to any improvement on forming caravans. It is logical and would make the process quicker. +1 from me.
I have a potential gameplay bug. I went to rescue a character that has a mechanite sleeping there. I can't leave the area because "there is still hostiles in the area". Even if the hostile is not dangerous, and would pose great danger to my colonists if I would leave the area fix the error by killing the mechanite.
(I realized it's called a mechanoid, not a mechanite)
Quote from: ToXeye on October 29, 2018, 09:45:12 AM
I have a potential gameplay bug. I went to rescue a character that has a mechanite sleeping there. I can't leave the area because "there is still hostiles in the area". Even if the hostile is not dangerous, and would pose great danger to my colonists if I would leave the area fix the error by killing the mechanite.
(I realized it's called a mechanoid, not a mechanite)
You can manually collect everything and then run everybody to the edge of the map, and then form the caravan from there.
It's this way because there's a (significant) chance that you can't get everything without waking the mechanoid.