This notification needs to exist before you get hit. When an animals is "hunting x" where x = colonist, give a notification for it similar to "x revenge", but instead "x hunting colonist".
The justification is the same as the reason you get notifications for raids, diseases, fires, mental break risks, and yes even an animal turning hostile because you freaking shot it, something that you SHOULD be more aware is happening.
The present implementation is inconsistent to the game's standards, hiding an event that is frankly more dangerous to a colonist's life than most of the above in many cases. I have yet to see a justification for this implementation that would not similarly argue the game should turn off raid notifications etc.
Is it possible to fix this in A18? Constantly, manually scanning the map for predators is not a gameplay-friendly solution.
+1 billion, currently I refuse to play in the more predator-heavy biomes because this nonsense irritates me so much.
I too would like to see this in vanilla.
Until then, Britnoth has a mod that will take care of that need: Hunting Alert
Can be found in this thread: https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=17094.0
Quote from: BlackSmokeDMax on June 13, 2017, 11:50:42 AM
I too would like to see this in vanilla.
Until then, Britnoth has a mod that will take care of that need: Hunting Alert
Can be found in this thread: https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=17094.0
Very much appreciated. The game really needs this by default.
+1
+1
I've been pretty apathetic about the issue for a while, but I'm actually in favor of the alert being added to the game now. I have a wall around my base, and it mitigates most predatorial threats, but I've lost at least one colonist in every A17 playthrough so far to predators because I had no way to react to what was happening until it was already too late.
I've only been able to save ONE colonist with a heroic pacifist doctor after that pawn was already downed and being beaten to death by a grizzly bear. It was a close call, to say the least... As interesting as that story is, though, it was more frustrating than interesting when it happened. I'm still salty about it, actually.
when you lose a bloody colonist to a Fennec Fox because the game doesn't notify you is just the worst
lol i had one of my colonists being hunted by a fox but then it stopped when a rat wandered nearby so lucky me!
I think that instead of a predator hunting something specifically, it should wander around "hunting" until it spots its prey because then you would be able to see the animal coming towards your base without it making a beeline towards one of your colonists.(SACRIFICE THE USELESS TERRIER)
I think there should also be a seasonal event when bears go into hibernation during the winter and when spring comes there is a notification that bears are out of hibernation
as mentioned in loads of threads already:
The game needs a notification for predators hunting colonists.
This is because it is the ONLY event or happening in the game that can hurt or kill a pawn that has no notification (here defined as red envelope event, yellow envelope event, or notification text in the upper left corner). It is inconsistent game design, which for new players means frustration over something that all other gameplay experience would imply that they would be notified for. For experienced players, it means removing meaningful choice, as the current notification of the actual melee attack on the pawn happens AFTER the point where player decision would have made a difference.
Whether an individual player loses colonists to predators hunting pawns or not, the game design point stands, and any argument for "realism" flies in the face of it being inconsistent with other events that could be denied notifications based on realism as well as the fact that for games, meaningful choice trumps "realism" (since games are ABOUT choice, removing the opportunity for me to make a choice at the point where it matters (predator BEGINS hunting colonist) means diminishing the game).
I tend to agree it seems odd that we get notifications for pretty much everything else but this. Or at least it would be nice if the game would pause when an animal attacks so we can react to it. In the time it takes to hammer the space bar, the damage is often done. :(
Quote from: ChillinVillian13 on June 15, 2017, 02:05:49 PM
I think there should also be a seasonal event when bears go into hibernation during the winter and when spring comes there is a notification that bears are out of hibernation
Yes, hungry bears should only show up in the spring and fall. Bears roaming the forest in the dead of winter is completely unrealistic!
As the last two people commented having a notification that a predator is going to hunt your colonist is completely unrealistic and people need to figure out strategies on how to prevent against it. For me, I tested out having my base on tundra or boreal forest and putting single spaced stockpile zones surrounding my colony that were designated for animal/human corpses. The point was that the predator would be looking for food and the game recognizes that there is a dead animal already and will have the predator eat the corpse. This will fill it up plenty so that i will be able to realize the predator and take care of it. This worked for me about 75% of the time as long as my colonists stayed within the "boundary wall". This however can only work in winter when the corpses can remain frozen
Quote from: ChillinVillian13 on June 15, 2017, 08:53:06 PM
As the last two people commented having a notification that a predator is going to hunt your colonist is completely unrealistic and people need to figure out strategies on how to prevent against it. For me, I tested out having my base on tundra or boreal forest and putting single spaced stockpile zones surrounding my colony that were designated for animal/human corpses. The point was that the predator would be looking for food and the game recognizes that there is a dead animal already and will have the predator eat the corpse. This will fill it up plenty so that i will be able to realize the predator and take care of it. This worked for me about 75% of the time as long as my colonists stayed within the "boundary wall". This however can only work in winter when the corpses can remain frozen
A realism argument by itself with regards to the current mechanic is incoherent. To have it be coherent the realism standard one uses would have to be consistently applied to other mechanics interacting with this one (it isn't).
An argument that suggests animals targeting colonists (from assault rifle range!) can't be rational if also okay that you can aim an assault rifle at a panther and spray it from nearly its max effective range, and have it go "revenge", figure out attack direction, and close the distance. Same with herd retaliation or even what you can see in the game, or the game's notifications for other events.
It's not reasonable to say "it's realistic that x happens" in regard to one mechanic and then "it's okay because it's a game" with regard to another, while shifting standards when considering each. That's what every realism argument wrt animals does. This is not valid reasoning for the mechanic, because it is not coherent reasoning.
A rational position needs to apply its standards consistently when making the argument. Realism argument by itself wrt this mechanical interaction does not have a rational basis in the context of the game...and this mechanic is absolutely awful in gameplay terms for the reasons Limdood highlighted.
I'm not sure we need a full blown Red siren event every time a predator gets hungry because their hunting target can change as soon as someone walks through a door.
The animal isn't targeting your pawns to take you down a peg, they are just going after the easiest available food source (which does make me think a item which functions as poisoned Food would be cool to have).
But I don't see why we couldn't have a wild animal starvation notice, just like you get one for your own animals when they are starving.
we just need the same type of notification as:
"the trade caravan from Red Dawn Outpost is leaving"
"DebbieDowner is no longer sad wandering"
...
...
...
"Meatstick is being hunted by a panther"
^^^Yes, and then a letter notification if they get attacked and then the game pauses. Ditto animal revenge (which gives you a letter but no pause).
+1
Good catch.
Maybe extend it to tame animals as well?
Having it for tame animals would be reasonable, but it's not as game-altering to lose them at random and the countermeasures to keep them alive are different (as is the reason/requirement you'd have them outside base/walls anyway). I could go either way on that one, in contrast to colonists dying at random w/o mundane micro which is not acceptable design in the framework of other Rimworld implementations.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on July 13, 2017, 12:51:30 PM
QuoteHow is that irrational? The colonist is already shooting at the cougar. The colonist already has it in sight. If it decides to turn around and attack the colonist out of revenge it can't hide and probably isn't intending to hide, so logically you should receive a notification.
1. "Real animals hide so they'd be hard to see" --> applies a certain standard for realism to how the game interacts with animals.
2. "Animal charges into rifle fire from nearly maximum effective range after being hit by bullets" --> thoroughly tramples on the exact same standard used to establish the rationale in #1, creating self-inconsistency.
Taking a stance that #1 and #2 are both okay while using a realism standard is self-inconsistent, which is why it's not a coherent position.
... You can't have it both ways.
Movies don't work that way, and neither do games. Bottom line:
ALL games(outside games with purely abstract themes) balance a line between getting certain aspects of the game immersive enough to pass for realism, while maintaining a mechanical balance for the purpose of fun and performance.
In Games, you
can as a matter of fact have it both ways.
You want a realism standard across the entire game?
Don't play games. Play Life. Or a not even remotely close second could be hardcore simulations.
And just to put the nail in the coffin:
fiction primer (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fUO3KKbAbTxMP1lqphnnodY0NPoOVblCUkDw-54MDUc/pub)
" ...Often, people have bred and engineered plants and animals for a new planet...
...One consistent class of modification we've seen applied to a wide variety of creatures is intelligence enhancement...
...been engineered and combined with human DNA to produce smarter variations...
...Some are created as warriors and weapons - hyper-intelligent guard dog, a bird scout that can speak what is sees, a bomb-carrying suicide monkey...
...These brain modifications are
often paired with physical changes - fingers so a pig can manipulate tools, or a humanlike larynx and mouth so a dog can talk...
...Optianimals can usually use tools, form long-term goals and organize into primitive social groups...
...Many times, these modified animals have, during a regressive catastrophe, been forced into interbreeding with an unmodified animal population, producing descendants of widely varying levels of intelligence...
...In a few cases, transanimals have become the dominant species on a planet, eliminating or enslaving the remaining humans..."
Do
not assume animals on the Rimworlds are in any way similar to or should act like real Earth animals to begin with.
They have every potential to do the exact same irrational
BS, a crazed revenge seeking Human would.
Realism aside, the game deciding to remove a pawn because of RNG without any sort of warning or reaction time is absolutely unacceptable and incredibly infuriating.
While it can be argued that we can prepare for it by hunting animals, it's not fun to always pause and look around the map to micro manage some predators. And let's be honest here. This event is pure instant bullshit along with blights and diseases.
-1
I do not feel that animal hunting should have an notification. It is an mechanic which shows how to handel it.
After some time, you know why the animal attacks and you know when it will do it. I often play with many winter months, and they will attack when they dont get food. When i send one lonly pawn to mine outside my town, i now in which danger i put him.
There are ways to counter predators: hunt them, give them food, give your pawn an animal (i recently notice the will protect there master even when he is mining).
You get a "zzzzZ" notification after it happend. You get the sickness notification after it happens.then you have to act quickly. Even the blink (hopefully the english word for "half your crops died)" comes when it is to late. An infestation gives you only 2seconds to react.
So this isnt the only mechanic which come out of the dark.
The problem seems: there is no easy way. When you dont think about it, people get hurt. And i understand that not everyone want to do this.
I, as a player, expect this behavour and try to avoid lonley pawns. A notification would make it easier, but then the animals would be ...no problem. "A there it is. I have enough time to gang it up". Now, you dont need preparation. Because two salves of an MG will mostly solve the problem (not bears).
I also read, some players want a notification before a raid drop because pawns at the border of the map get in trouble.
Some people think this is bullshit.
Some people think animal hunting is bullshit.
But not everyone.
But a timestop when my pawn gets hurt would be nice.
PS: And it is not even RNG compared to other events.
Quote
Movies don't work that way, and neither do games. Bottom line:
ALL games(outside games with purely abstract themes) balance a line between getting certain aspects of the game immersive enough to pass for realism, while maintaining a mechanical balance for the purpose of fun and performance.
In Games, you can as a matter of fact have it both ways.
Yes, it is possible to be irrational. It's not good to be irrational via inconsistency in game systems, just like it's not good for movies to have terrible plot holes or character actions that don't fit motivation. The movie still happens, but it's less good than it would be if the character choices made sense in the situation the movie presents.
This is a bad gameplay mechanic that amounts to a pixel hunt as the only non-reload counter measure, even according to its proponents. It is also inconsistent, both with the game's notification system *and* with the standard used for reality in almost every other portion of the game.
You are telling us that it is OK for animals to unrealistically hunt people and be unrealistically threatening to them but that a notification for it would not be called for because real animals hide...all despite the fact that the game will tell you what an animal is hunting if you actually physically click on it, even from across the map in spots where your pawns couldn't reasonably see it.
That is not a coherent position, and the outcome doesn't make the game better. It makes it worse.
QuoteDo not assume animals on the Rimworlds are in any way similar to or should act like real Earth animals to begin with.
They have every potential to do the exact same irrational BS, a crazed revenge seeking Human would.
Then notifications for them are warranted after all. The colony can see them, and they know how dangerous they are, so the present treatment is inconsistent with the game's notification system and we don't need to care about "realism".
Quote
There are ways to counter predators: hunt them, give them food, give your pawn an animal (i recently notice the will protect there master even when he is mining).
Pixel hunting is a junk mechanic that needs to stay back in the 1990's where it died.
Quote
You get a "zzzzZ" notification after it happend. You get the sickness notification after it happens.then you have to act quickly. Even the blink (hopefully the english word for "half your crops died)" comes when it is to late. An infestation gives you only 2seconds to react.
So this isnt the only mechanic which come out of the dark.
Predator hunting is *critically* different from those events. For those events, even infestation, the player is capable of action that allows for colonist survival after the notification. If you don't pixel hunt, a predator will kill your colonist at range no matter what you do.
QuoteI also read, some players want a notification before a raid drop because pawns at the border of the map get in trouble.
Some people think this is bullshit.
Some people think animal hunting is bullshit.
But not everyone.
Opinions are not equal (IE if someone expressed an opinion that most asteroids are larger than Earth, we would not weight that as an "equal" opinion to one formed from evidence). What matters is the reasoning. Raiders appearing on top of you is a bit tangential, but players claiming that have a legitimate case it's inconsistent too, because the rules of the map's borders are arbitrary in terms of what you can build where and timing. Infestations and drop pod-into-base raids are both given a grace period of a few seconds, and those make all the difference. The border raid is *inconsistent* with the reasoning for that grace period.
From a design perspective, disparate standards applied to notifications and minimal counterplay aside from a mundane "don't physically go there ever" are weak. I can engineer it so I never even get infestations or zzzt events, not even 1 for 10 in game years. After the first harvest or two, I can survive blight easily. If I prepare for it, I can react to 3 scythers drop podded into my base, which should be MORE threatening than a random cougar hunting a colonist.
Not only can I prepare for those things, but I can do so without manually scanning the map on a pixel hunt and ignoring actual gameplay on pain of losing someone at random if missing a spot.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on July 14, 2017, 10:09:06 AM
Quote
There are ways to counter predators: hunt them, give them food, give your pawn an animal (i recently notice the will protect there master even when he is mining).
Pixel hunting is a junk mechanic that needs to stay back in the 1990's where it died.
Quote
You get a "zzzzZ" notification after it happend. You get the sickness notification after it happens.then you have to act quickly. Even the blink (hopefully the english word for "half your crops died)" comes when it is to late. An infestation gives you only 2seconds to react.
So this isnt the only mechanic which come out of the dark.
Predator hunting is *critically* different from those events. For those events, even infestation, the player is capable of action that allows for colonist survival after the notification. If you don't pixel hunt, a predator will kill your colonist at range no matter what you do.
I didnt talk about pixel hunt. I dont even care much about predators that much. To give pawns an animals isnt pixelhunting. To put food before your doorstep isnt pixelhunting.
There are ways to counter them. Simple ways.
And predator hunting isnt "Oh he attacks, my pawn will die.". I had some attacks from wolfs and wargs, my pawns could handle them alone. Yes, they didnt look good after this, put the win the fight, mostly because they have weapons. They can shoot, even in close combat.
Some have the benefit, that a husky or two stay by there site, and attack the predator.
Okay, when i send one hunter out, to kill one deer, and the bear thinks "i am starving, better eat the pawn" he will mostly die. But not because its a dump mechanic. Its because the pawn is alone and i didnt take my time to overthink this.
I dont know how you play your game. And i dont want to tell you how it is to be played. I have offert some solutions. But we do this things differently and ATM i didnt have any problems with predators. When some predator finally will kill one pawn... tragic.
And at this point, i think this benefit the game.
Also, this is a problem of mapsize and biome. If i have a very great map, help will take some time. if i have a mountain, the way back to base will be much larger. And so is the risk with predators.
But this mechanik, like every other should pause the game immediatly . After the first hit, the player should be able to do something. This is a problem when you run on 3x speed. Because there will be a second and third attack.
Tagging every pawn that might step outside the base is not a realistic move, especially on the food-constrained maps this actually happens with any frequency.
Leaving food outside the base does not solve the issue. Animal predators ignore fresh corpses they would otherwise eat to attack live pawns, and most of the ones that are actually threatening (aside from bears) won't eat grains.
[Okay, when i send one hunter out, to kill one deer, and the bear thinks "i am starving, better eat the pawn" he will mostly die. But not because its a dump mechanic. Its because the pawn is alone and i didnt take my time to overthink this. [/quote]
I micromanage hunting so I don't shoot myself (I consider that its own issue, that using the hunting command is a false choice compared to draft hunting). The problem is when these things hit constructor, miners, or even the odd hauler. Even if you react instantly and pawn is within 15-20 tiles of a non-mountain base, predators can kill or at least seriously maim (IE permanent damage) these pawns due to predator stun. You can try to shoot back, but even assault rifle will frequently fail to stop something like a cougar or warg.
I'm not worried about the handler on nice cozy biomes as he drags along his 5+ animal pain train. That guy isn't going to die. Losing a leg off a constructor at random while a corpse from last raid is frozen 10 tiles away w/o notification or any counterplay except "play slow and pixel hunt" is not viable gameplay. You don't have the food to put 2 dogs on everyone. Sometimes you don't even have dogs/tamed animals of significance.
Also, why do animals hunting colonists get special extra consideration? What about this mechanic necessitates that it doesn't get notification, such that it's inconsistent with how the game normally treats its mechanics? It's not like if you get caught out that a notification would save you every time, but it would make preparation against this type of mechanic reasonable.
I see both sides of the argument as having merit.
In my colony before my current one I had my level 20 grower killed by a panther while going to pick up some metal I had unforbidden and forgotten about. This resulted in an that's it everyone on board the ship we are out of this dump. Poor Cuveas constant drug binges, mental breaks and being a general pain in my ass but he could grow those plants. So yeah the random killer predator really bugged me that day.
You can do the pixel hunt and for some that's no fun. I don't mind so much but I can see how it could get tedious. You can also give animal escorts fight fire with fire bears are good for this, some kibble production to keep on top of predators is a fair trade off IMO.
Yes I have witnessed first hand a cougar bolt past an ostrich and boomrat to attack one of my pawns who was set to flee threats so ran away (sort of) after the first hit I was lucky enough to have pawns nearby and it saved the day. So an alert would be nice. Hell I get a yellow alert every time my self tamed rat with dementia gets confused so an alert for colonist under attack is not an unreasonable request.
I use the hunt command often in mid-game.
At the beginnen, i draft every pawen because of the danger of a manhunt. I shot every animal, and go away. When the bleed to death i collect the dead animals. In my opinion this is a savely way.
Later, when i have more pawns is just let them hunt the whole herd. If a manhunt beginns, there are other hunters who will help. Also, if an animal hunts me, there are more pawns to help.
Yes they sometimes shoot themself but.. i dont want to micro this. As you said: Another issue.
And i think it isnt "another consideration". When i kill my first hive in A17, i didnt get a notification that the bugs will rush me now :-D. The problem was, there were hives at two differen points. I thought i could kill one, and then the other later. Now, the other have rushed me and killed it self by this (the bugs die and couldnt maintain the hive).
I think, there is a problem with what we expect. Here is a bad example, against myself:
On my map are many corpses. Its winter now (and its winter everyday. sometimes it gets warm, just long enought for the snow to smelt or to take a look at the sun). And i get an attack in my base (its not fully encloused on purpuse). But there are many fresh corpses lieing arround. It seems that a wolf will attack a small animal over half the map, even when a corpse is closer.
This could be good because: The corpse is frozen, hard as rock. But my huskys eat frozen corpse so... the wolf should do this too. Why hunt, if you have food which didnt move?
I see too, that many players consider animal hunting as problem. And i think, because of this, the dev will change it. Even when the mechanic is good (in my opinion) it didnt mean, it should stay.
But if you put a notification up, for me it means i didnt have to be careful. Now i can handle an suprise attack but I will have more time to react, more time to solve the problem. Also i will get many notifications, because in winter, i get many attacks. As a new player i would think "This is a event". But it is not.
Could it be, that it is not with a notification because its not an event which is triggert?
PS: Also i like it when a pawn loses a leg. Or an arm (okay i have EPOE). But you can put a wood leg on him. And someday you will get a party, becaue you bought e bionic leg and know he is at his best again. Losing one finger or a nose, this is a pain. Because its not enought to by a bionic put angers me permanently.
PPS: I try to bypass english words i didnt know. Sry!
QuoteBut if you put a notification up, for me it means i didnt have to be careful. Now i can handle an suprise attack but I will have more time to react, more time to solve the problem. Also i will get many notifications, because in winter, i get many attacks. As a new player i would think "This is a event". But it is not.
Could it be, that it is not with a notification because its not an event which is triggert?
It's not an event in the game sense, but anything that happens is an event in the technical sense. It could be given a notification easily if the devs want to do so.
What's the purpose of giving notifications for "time to react" for most events if we're going to force players to micromanage like this anyway? It's not different from not getting a notification about a siege or needing to tell your pawns to manually eat in the game sense; if the game forced you to do these things players could do them, but they would not make it a better game. Why are animals considered an exception in this regard?
And yes, there's expectation dissonance with other mechanics. Hive change from A16 --> A17 is a good example as you say. I would argue that it's a little awkward now, since you get notification if that random deer herd turns on you...but not if 25 angry bugs are bearing down on the colony. Considering they will attack the colony even if they collapse a roof on themselves, that's another example of something in the game that could be better, for the same reason as the animal hunt notification.
An alternative to what I suggest would be a way that isn't a pixel hunt whereby players can consistently mitigate the threat of predators hunting colonists if planning in advance. Wildlife tab mod will let you order hunts on them all, but that's a little clumsy as a solution (much better than vanilla manual pixel hunting though). Similar to how you can pre-build border structures to more easily defend sieges with cover or plan against sappers, some kind of investment the player can make consistently to avoid the problem (since animal companions are not always an option, certainly not always for every pawn) would work the same way.
We even get a notification when beavers enter the map, seeing them from enormous distance, so there's plenty of plausibility in game scope for some method of noticing/dealing with predators consistently in vanilla that isn't a pixel hunt, and more than one way to solve this. The one I give is just a "cheap" one - IE very little developer resources/effort needed to implement. Others might need more.
What i meant is, for an triggerd event, we get notifications.
But now i think of this, not for every one. Like the hive. Compare it to a siege.
If a siege army gets to many deaths (lets say an animal attack them, causing a rocket to go off, many body parts fly arround), you will get a notification that they attack.
This should be the same with hives.
With this you can understand cause and impact.
But this is another issue. I agree, there should be a help with animals. I have learnd how to handle them. Perhaps there should be a learing aid.
The AI which sets a target could be better. Like "When there is no pray in 20 fields around me, is there a corpse around me."
Also, there could be a notification like "Hunting animal comes into homezone".
This would reduce the pain. But if you leave your homezone you are on your own.
And i dont think the mechanic is bad. Its not bad designe. its not perfect at this point.
The bad part of the design is the way the sole agency interacts with expectations on the player. The concept of an animal attacking colonists for food isn't bad in a vacuum, but it's poorly implemented. If that poor implementation is intentional, I would say it's bad design, but if it it's not intentional it is more of a poor implementation of a decent idea than strictly bad design.
I'm not too fussed at what the counterplay is if there are reasonable alternatives to my suggestion that a player can reasonably execute w/o tedium.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on July 14, 2017, 10:09:06 AM
Then notifications for them are warranted after all. The colony can see them, and they know how dangerous they are...
No, YOU can see them.
You need to separate what you can see from what the colonist can "see".
This is a common problem with games that lack a fog or war mechanic.
The player assumes all their units can see everything they can see. And that is not always the case, whether thematically or mechanically.
Being more dangerous and capable of revenge doesn't change that when animals start hunting stealthily then their prey will have less chance of spotting them. The issue is that properly hiding a stealthy animal from YOU requires that the games PAWNS have a more robust hostile detection system. Namely one that supports NOT detecting hostiles in a stealthy state. That way they can handle all that stuff automatically and send or not send notifications appropriately.
Since the game DOESN'T have such a detection system, then it needs to be simulated through UI interaction with the player. Notifications for hostiles that are thematically visible, and no notifications for hostiles that are thematically stealthy.
As for WHY there isn't such a system, reasons can vary from "its just not in yet" to "it would cost too much CPU and would mean sacrificing something else".
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on July 14, 2017, 10:09:06 AM
...This is a bad gameplay mechanic that amounts to a pixel hunt as the only non-reload counter measure...
Wrong. there are two other "non-reload" measures.
1. Have a trained animal accompany the colonists that regularly leaves the base.
The trained animal will defend said colonist, decreasing the chance of serious injury.
2. Always have backup nearby.
Most animals can't do serious injury to a colonist if you have backup even remotely close by.
Ive had my colonists hunted frequently, and outside of a bear or similar, Ive had a 100% survival rate with minimal to no permanent injury despite REACTING LATE.
I have NEVER reloaded, due to an animal hunting my colonists.
Im more likely to reload because of an infestation or some other overwhelming series of bad events.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on July 14, 2017, 10:09:06 AM
You are telling us that it is OK for animals to thematically hunt people and be thematically threatening to them but that a notification for it would not be called for because thematically the animals hide...all despite the fact that the game will tell you what an animal is hunting if you actually physically click on it, even from across the map in spots where your pawns couldn't reasonably see it.
With the bolded corrections, yes. That is indeed ok.
Because it is not the colonist looking at that animal. YOU. THE PLAYER. Is looking at that clicked animal.
Could you be given a notification when an animal decides to hunt a colonist?
Sure, you are the player. You are the "god-like" presence that sees everything and plans everything. But you are ALSO the subject of the theme and challenges the DESIGNER wants to place in front of you. If the designer WANTS stealthy hunters, but either has not yet implemented a detection system or can't afford to spare CPU cycles for one, then it is ALSO reasonable that you DON'T get notifications for animals hunting colonists. And that ISN'T inconsistent in the face of the revenge mechanic, because it matches THEMATICALLY according to the games lore.
This playstyle of "be paranoid all the time" doesn't sound fun.
QuoteNo, YOU can see them.
You need to separate what you can see from what the colonist can "see".
This is a common problem with games that lack a fog or war mechanic.
Pawns can see at least sniper range. Animals can target from further than that. If we're going to use this metric, it needs an actual mechanic in the game.
QuoteBeing more dangerous and capable of revenge doesn't change that when animals start hunting stealthily then their prey will have less chance of spotting them.
It does imply we're making up rules as we go. Colonists can't see inbound raids either, but we get notifications for those long before they're in colonist "line of sight", whatever it supposedly is, unless you're conceding they can see the animals after all. They can even notice infestations in enclosed mountains across the map...how do animals fit "thematically" into a framework where notifications for quality of life are the norm?
I hold that the implementation is self-inconsistent, and that conclusion is based on evidence. You can show me I'm wrong though: list a set of standards, independent of specific mechanics, that guides which in-game things merit notification vs not. In other words, what criteria would allow a 3rd person to read it and conclude the present implementation?
QuoteMost animals can't do serious injury to a colonist if you have backup even remotely close by.
Ive had my colonists hunted frequently, and outside of a bear or similar, Ive had a 100% survival rate with minimal to no permanent injury despite REACTING LATE.
Trained animal isn't even possible consistently, let alone practical. Having pawns "never go out alone w/o backup" implies speed 1 micromanagement that amounts to pixel hunting stray pawns instead of the predators. This game is not designed around draft control of pawns all the time.
Your "thematically" line of reasoning would hold for making players order pawns to eat manually (and not notifying when they're hungry), making temperature ambiguous, hiding toxic fallout, or blocking notification of inbound sieges. IE, you are not giving reasonable constraining justification for the animal hunting mechanic within the framework of Rimworld; you are using a "universally applicable" line of reasoning that would justify tons of nonsense mechanics. This is not a sound defense of the mechanic in question; it's not an actual defense of any particular mechanic to claim it is "thematically appropriate so it can do nonsense".
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on July 17, 2017, 02:17:15 PM
Pawns can see at least sniper range.
Big whoop. Seeing farther != seeing better.
Also doesn't change that notifications are based on what the designer thinks YOU should be seeing.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on July 17, 2017, 02:17:15 PM
Animals can target from further than that.
Abstracted:
Scent.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on July 17, 2017, 02:17:15 PM
Colonists can't see inbound raids either, but we get notifications for those long before they're in colonist "line of sight"
Without Drop Pods:
Abstracted:
Days and weeks of enemy travel before they get to your colony, and during that time the chance of a stranger telling the colony(via radio). Remember: a fleeing slave can contact your colony while being chased.
With Drop Pods/Crashed Ship:
Screeching sound of the Drop Pods/Crashed Ship.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on July 17, 2017, 02:17:15 PM
They can even notice infestations in enclosed mountains...
Abstracted:
Days and weeks of hearing them dig but not knowing exactly where they will emerge until they do.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on July 17, 2017, 02:17:15 PM
It does imply we're making up rules as we go.
Congratulations. You've just described EVERY GAME EVER.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on July 17, 2017, 02:17:15 PM
Trained animal isn't even possible consistently, let alone practical. Having pawns "never go out alone w/o backup" implies speed 1 micromanagement that amounts to pixel hunting stray pawns instead of the predators. This game is not designed around draft control of pawns all the time.
Incorrect.
You either don't know about the "follow while doing field work" option, or yer trolling me.
Drafting is not necessary. Also I play at a
minimum of speed 2, unless the game FORCES me into speed 1.
Options:
Hunter on attack mode, accompanying Pet with just Obedience on "follow while doing field work" mode.
Hunter on flee mode, accompanying Pet with just Obedience on "follow while doing field work" mode.
This hasn't affected me too much in game. I've never lost a colonist to a hungry animal so far. I'm pretty neutral on if this gets added or not. If it does, I'd rather the alert come a few moments after they decide to hunt someone. That way if they're any amount of distance away and not already giving your pawn a handshake with it's mouth, time will freeze while it's a few feet away and you get the chance to fire at it first. I do feel time should freeze regardless though when a pawn or tamed animal is attack by a hunting animal or a second before the attack occurs.
At some point a realism mode would probably be interesting, where you outright don't get any alerts your colonists can't see (with or without fog of war since you are a godlike presence in the world, fog of war for more realism, without it for more viewing pleasure and if you see things while looking around well lucky you)
The game already warns you when an animal decides to take revenge or during a manhunter event. The difference between this and 'animal is hunting a colonist' is extremely minimal. If these events have warnings and notifications, then why shouldn't hunted colonists trigger warning messages as well?
It's extensive micro management with very little pay off. Something that can be solved easily by just putting a warning on it like everything else. It won't diminish the danger as the animal will likely catch the pawn anyways but a warning would be enough of a chance for the player to try.
Put aside realism and put gameplay first please. It's not fun when it happens and it's not fun to prepare for.
Quote from: Slimy_Slider on July 18, 2017, 02:03:10 AM
The game already warns you when an animal decides to take revenge or during a manhunter event. The difference between this and 'animal is hunting a colonist' is extremely minimal. If these events have warnings and notifications, then why shouldn't hunted colonists trigger warning messages as well?
The difference, as previously discussed, is that during a revenge attack the colonist in question is already focused on and targeting the animal in question. The animal is not trying to be stealthy, and the colonist can see it coming.
When being hunted the animal is not enraged and is trying to be stealthy(just like most animals would try to be when hunting), and the colonist is focused on another task.
Since there is currently no fog of war, or dedicated detection system, it is likely the lack of notification for hunting animals is an abstraction of their stealthiness.
Quote from: A Friend on July 18, 2017, 06:44:31 AM
It's extensive micro management with very little pay off. Something that can be solved easily by just putting a warning on it like everything else. It won't diminish the danger as the animal will likely catch the pawn anyways but a warning would be enough of a chance for the player to try.
I disagree. The solution is not to remove the idea of stealthy animals.
And animals can hunt a target from across the map, giving a warning for when it decides to hunt a colonist would mean the longest possible reaction time. You only think the animal would still catch your pawn because at the moment you don't find out about it until the colonist is already being attacked. (meaning unless you are actively watching their "hunting patterns" then you don't get to see when they start approaching and as a result don't know how long they moved to get to your pawn. I know this because I
recently did just that. Animals will move across the entire map if pathing to their target necessitates it.)
You would need to have the warning wait until the animal is close enough to get at the colonist regardless of your reaction, but then why bother when the colonist taking damage
IS that warning?
Quote from: A Friend on July 18, 2017, 06:44:31 AM
Put aside realism and put gameplay first please. It's not fun when it happens and it's not fun to prepare for.
I take it you don't like assigning/planing tasks for our colonists?
Taming and training animals?
Because that is literally all it takes to prepare.
Micromanagement is not necessary, and at worst it is no more difficult that a Raid.
Quote from: erdrik on July 18, 2017, 03:11:45 PM
Quote from: A Friend on July 18, 2017, 06:44:31 AM
It's extensive micro management with very little pay off. Something that can be solved easily by just putting a warning on it like everything else. It won't diminish the danger as the animal will likely catch the pawn anyways but a warning would be enough of a chance for the player to try.
I disagree. The solution is not to remove the idea of stealthy animals.
And animals can hunt a target from across the map, giving a warning for when it decides to hunt a colonist would mean the longest possible reaction time. You only think the animal would still catch your pawn because at the moment you don't find out about it until the colonist is already being attacked. (meaning unless you are actively watching their "hunting patterns" then you don't get to see when they start approaching and as a result don't know how long they moved to get to your pawn. I know this because I recently did just that. Animals will move across the entire map if pathing to their target necessitates it.)
You would need to have the warning wait until the animal is close enough to get at the colonist regardless of your reaction, but then why bother when the colonist taking damage IS that warning?
Quote from: A Friend on July 18, 2017, 06:44:31 AM
Put aside realism and put gameplay first please. It's not fun when it happens and it's not fun to prepare for.
I take it you don't like assigning/planing tasks for our colonists?
Taming and training animals?
Because that is literally all it takes to prepare.
Micromanagement is not necessary, and at worst it is no more difficult that a Raid.
I think most people dont like the animals. Yeah...we can do simple things against it. And in the endgame there isnt any problem, expect: You didnt do anything.
But... it is frustating for the most of the player base. Better do something entertaining.
Quote from: Lowkey1987 on July 18, 2017, 04:13:37 PM
I think most people dont like the animals. Yeah...we can do simple things against it. And in the endgame there isnt any problem, expect: You didnt do anything.
But... it is frustating for the most of the player base. Better do something entertaining.
Im not against adding to or modifying something to improve it.
Im all for a more robust detection/stealth system.
But I am fully against
removing a perfectly valid event, and this whole line of discussion was born from the resulting suggestion that animals shouldn't be stealthy while hunting. Being challenged by stealth is
not unfun.
QuoteI disagree. The solution is not to remove the idea of stealthy animals.
And animals can hunt a target from across the map, giving a warning for when it decides to hunt a colonist would mean the longest possible reaction time. You only think the animal would still catch your pawn because at the moment you don't find out about it until the colonist is already being attacked. (meaning unless you are actively watching their "hunting patterns" then you don't get to see when they start approaching and as a result don't know how long they moved to get to your pawn. I know this because I recently did just that. Animals will move across the entire map if pathing to their target necessitates it.)
I wasn't aware of this as my only experiences with animal attacks is either they're already half-way to being eaten alive, or I get lucky and somehow notice a wolf coming way too close to a colonist. In that case, I'll adjust my suggestion to merely giving a warning when the predators are close enough to the pawn to still retain the event's danger while giving you a chance to protect them.
QuoteYou would need to have the warning wait until the animal is close enough to get at the colonist regardless of your reaction, but then why bother when the colonist taking damage IS that warning?
Because I'm given the time and chance to potentially save my pawn from permanent damage or death. Which would be less frustrating than having the pawn die because I didn't check the map every 5 minutes for predators. If you believe that a warning and time to react is useless and will unlikely change the outcome then why oppose adding it? It doesn't negate the danger of the event, and still remains true to it's intention; that being a deadly animal attack.
QuoteI take it you don't like assigning/planing tasks for our colonists?
Taming and training animals?
Because that is literally all it takes to prepare.
Micromanagement is not necessary, and at worst it is no more difficult that a Raid.
- I manually assign my work tab and use various mods that further expands and complicates it. I'm no stranger to management.
- Biomes, I settle in have little to no animals in them that I can usually train, so animals for me are out of the options.
Micromanaging a raid is different from micromanaging animal attacks as you describe. Raids are a one time thing: they come, they attack, they stop. Raids are challenges sent to test the player's tactics, ingenuity, and planning.
Predators are different: they attack. They don't come and they don't leave. Technically, they arrive as well but unless you're willing to check the map every few seconds, you will basically just assume that there's always wolfs outside.
Of course, like anything in the game, it can be countered by being prepared. The problem is that the danger is always present and that one fuck up will instantly remove you of a valuable colonist. Coupled with absolutely one feasible counter (Animal training, I'm not gonna count pausing the game and scouring the map of predators, putting turrets everywhere and drafting a pawn to babysit hunters) and you've got the recipe for salty players.
QuoteI think most people dont like the animals. Yeah...we can do simple things against it. And in the endgame there isnt any problem, expect: You didnt do anything.
But... it is frustating for the most of the player base. Better do something entertaining.
Let's see what everyone thinks. (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=34513.msg353209;boardseen#new)
QuoteBut I am fully against removing a perfectly valid event, and this whole line of discussion was born from the resulting suggestion that animals shouldn't be stealthy while hunting. Being challenged by stealth is not unfun.
I feel more like being punished by stealth instead of challenged by it.
"Don't have any animals to protect you? Too bad."
"Unwilling to scour the map for every predator out there and eliminating them one by one even though they have endless numbers and you could instead be using your time having fun building your base? Stop being a casual."I'd be less salty if there are more options to dealing with this than those two. But in the meanwhile, a warning would be much appreciated.
QuoteBig whoop. Seeing farther != seeing better.
Also doesn't change that notifications are based on what the designer thinks YOU should be seeing.
The whole point of this thread is to demonstrate that the designer made a mistake. To be expected, since the designer is human and in the big scheme of things, this is a comparatively minor one.
QuoteAbstracted:
Scent.
Disingenuous:
Inconsistently applied standards of abstraction.
QuoteIncorrect.
You either don't know about the "follow while doing field work" option, or yer trolling me.
I select third option: access to trained animals is not consistently possible, practical from a food perspective, or available to a sufficient number of colonists. A tribe operating on tundra isn't going to have the resources to train up 7 dogs to slap 1/colonist they have early on...same for less-useful, non-hauling animals.
Late game you can of course, but once your wealth is that high you're not needing to leave base much anymore regardless.
QuoteBut I am fully against removing a perfectly valid event, and this whole line of discussion was born from the resulting suggestion that animals shouldn't be stealthy while hunting. Being challenged by stealth is not unfun.
If this was a "perfectly valid event", you, the devs, and every single other person defending it wouldn't duck that request for criteria as to why it's held to a different standard than other game implementations.
"I hold that the implementation is self-inconsistent, and that conclusion is based on evidence. You can show me I'm wrong though: list a set of standards, independent of specific mechanics, that guides which in-game things merit notification vs not. In other words, what criteria would allow a 3rd person to read it and conclude the present implementation?"
In truly strong design --> implementation, the game is self-consistent. The standards it uses create appropriate player expectations to what the game wants them to do, and these standards are consistent enough that they don't screw the player arbitrarily for following them. Tynan has expressed consistency in the framework of Rimworld as a goal in the past, and this is not a mechanic that is consistent to how the game handles other threats. Short of making pretend pseudo-arguments about "animal realism with animals we later imply don't exist in reality because they're genetically modified all while ignoring the same standards of realism in every other game mechanic", there's scant little rationale as to why the present implementation should be an exception to the notification standards the game uses otherwise.
Thte arguments of both sides begin to repeat. :(
Because no one is willing to accept a compromise. It's either have a notification or don't.
Our points will continue to echo and clash unless the developer decides on a verdict.
But in the meanwhile, I believe the majority of players do want notifications. (http://www.strawpoll.me/13475455/r)
Quote from: A Friend on July 19, 2017, 10:20:14 PM
Because no one is willing to accept a compromise. It's either have a notification or don't.
Our points will continue to echo and clash unless the developer decides on a verdict.
But in the meanwhile, I believe the majority of players do want notifications. (http://www.strawpoll.me/13475455/r)
The game already warns you when they begin to hunt. The only difference is in the quality of the user interface and the gameplay experience resulting from it.
That is why Hunting Alert is listed as a UI mod, and not a gameplay mod.
Plus, there already IS a mechanic to simulate a 'stealthy' animal - the stun it inflicts on its prey when it attacks.
Any game mechanic that relies on the reaction times or attention span of the player in a game that can be paused at any time seems... contradictory.