So, I am currently in middle of summer 5502, and so far, I have not seen a single bionic body part! I even send caravan to the nearest tribe, and town, but nothing! I also ordered a bunch of trade caravans, mostly exotic traders, but so far the only stuff I got were some prosthetics, and a power claw.
I am litterally sitting on like 10k silver (mostly in thrumbo horns, since I didnt get enought traders with silver to sell them yet ;D) and I have almost no use for it! Guess I will have to start making rooms out of silver ???
Am I just really unlucky, or is it near immpossible to obtain any bionics in A17? I really need a bionic hand, since my lvl 20 builder lost her hand, and with only prosthetic hand, she still has only 92% build chance! :-\
Unluck in the game, luck in love. Its sadly random what trader got.
Orbital trader got at last more silver to trade, be sure you got a com console, but i think you have since you ordered caravans.
Actually, A17 did reduce the chance of caravans carrying high quality and "exotic" items like bionics, now it's not unusual for exotic traders to lack bionics and it seems rare for them to have more than one and (at most two) while back in a16 it was the norm for an exotic trader to have as much as 2-4 bionics (rarely having none).
Exotic trade ships are usually your best bet but their stock is still a bit less than you might be used to.
This is one reason that I always use the EPOE mod. The other being how ridiculously easy it is for colonists to have fingers and toes destroyed, and how much of an impact on their performance that causes..
Same for me, I couldn't play without EPOE or at least Harvest Everything mods installed. Last time I played in vanilla I had to remove the bionic eye of a pawn to give it to an other who lost his two eyes in combat. I got only one bionic eye in five years.
On the other hand I had a girl who got her arm torn off by an mad iguana, their is a huge lack of balance between how easily you can loose a limb or an eye and the difficulties you have to get it back.
The current system merely ensures savescumming. I no longer have even the slightest qualm about doing so, when someone loses a leg to a mad squirrel (yes, really and no, didn't get a screenie ::)). Actual combat? Sure. Squirrel? No, f*ck you, *reload*. It's just about the only reason I do so, in fact.
Difficulty (as a concept) is one thing but massively maddening mechanics merely mortify many, methinks.
Quote from: Bozobub on June 25, 2017, 04:21:50 PM
The current system merely ensures savescumming. I no longer have even the slightest qualm about doing so, when someone loses a leg to a mad squirrel (yes, really and no, didn't get a screenie ::)). Actual combat? Sure. Squirrel? No, f*ck you, *reload*. It's just about the only reason I do so, in fact.
Difficulty (as a concept) is one thing but massively maddening mechanics merely mortify many, methinks.
And with that, you kill the fun of the game's insanity.
If the squirrel hit that many consecutive attacks on a single limb to destroy/bite it off, you probably deserved being de-legged by it.
Bozo raises a good point, but more about amputation than anything - currently limbs are too easily ripped off, when in reality a bunch of punches would NEVER rip your arm off (unless you were the hulk or had razor blade knuckles) but would instead leave your arm so bruised you couldn't use it.
I agree amputation is way too frequent.
Its also kinda too stealthy.
There needs to be more feedback when it occurs. Im already in the habit of checking my colonists health after literally every potential injury incurring event. Its kind of annoying to have to cycle through all your colonists to find out if one of them is now armless. I would like it if losing an eye, arm, hand, leg, or foot caused a note to appear on the side of the screen. Or at the very least one of those top of the screen feedback messages.
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on June 26, 2017, 03:22:09 PM
Quote from: Bozobub on June 25, 2017, 04:21:50 PM
The current system merely ensures savescumming. I no longer have even the slightest qualm about doing so, when someone loses a leg to a mad squirrel (yes, really and no, didn't get a screenie ::)). Actual combat? Sure. Squirrel? No, f*ck you, *reload*. It's just about the only reason I do so, in fact.
Difficulty (as a concept) is one thing but massively maddening mechanics merely mortify many, methinks.
And with that, you kill the fun of the game's insanity.
If the squirrel hit that many consecutive attacks on a single limb to destroy/bite it off, you probably deserved being de-legged by it.
On the other hand, your colonists and their man-sized hands with paper fingers get them easily removed in encounters that I could win bare-handed in reality. I'm not in the worst shape ever, but I'm no martial arts master either.
Worse still is that these stupid injuries
matter. Not just losing a thumb, losing a single pinky can make a world-class master constructor fail to build something to the point of wasting resources with more frequency than someone with many hours less experience.
Here is the counter-play to such inane outcomes:
- Don't take damage.
That's it. Under the current rules, the game is sufficiently punitive in this regard that the direct incentive to avoid permanent damage to productivity is to work every mechanic possible to avoid taking damage at all, because no amount of armor or preparation can protect you from unlucky hits to eyes, fingers, or toes.
The bizarre multiplication of likelihood of injuries that are uncommon in reality, even during brutal violence, coupled with less access to using wealth to replace injuries puts a distinct RNG/fake difficulty feel to an aspect of the game that previously depended much more on how well you played.
You can still progress in Rimworld, but I don't like that direction.
Exactly. When losing digits and limbs to small animals becomes *common*, there's an obvious problem. Even downed prey IRL rarely loses a digit or limb in the process; that happens AFTER the prey is downed, when there's time for gnawing.
Again, the current paradigm has completely removed Permadeath as a game mode, for me. It's simply not worth the aggravation.
I wouldn't mind missing limbs being important if not for the artificial gating of their availability.
If have to spend 700 silver only to roll a dice and then get nothing I'm interested in buying (because I'm looking for bionics only), something is seriously wrong.
I'd much rather have them be 50% more expensive than 50% less available.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on June 26, 2017, 05:45:22 PM
Worse still is that these stupid injuries matter. Not just losing a thumb, losing a single pinky can make a world-class master constructor fail to build something to the point of wasting resources with more frequency than someone with many hours less experience.
Here is the counter-play to such inane outcomes:
- Don't take damage.
That's it. Under the current rules, the game is sufficiently punitive in this regard that the direct incentive to avoid permanent damage to productivity is to work every mechanic possible to avoid taking damage at all, because no amount of armor or preparation can protect you from unlucky hits to eyes, fingers, or toes.
I fully agree with this. If Tynan can't come up with some less contrived mechanic, this shows crisis of his imagination.
It doesn't feel like colonist are becoming scarred, grizzled veterans. It feels like they're falling apart. You will NEVER make up for a loss of a finger with skill. If Jim is level 20, Joe is level 14, Joe will eventually get better than Jim. For most skills it's only a matter of time until they reach level 20, and if you lack job opportunities to raise Joe 14 -> 20, this means Jim's skill would also decay down from 20. Maybe if there were also scars that made characters look more terrifying in battle, negotiations, or fascinate the opposite sex. Scars and traumas that made characters pursue different skills and jobs they were previously not interested in (there's trauma savant, but incredibly rare). Something that would make people feel participating in combat is not a strict loss, but that it can influence and modify people.
I know the movie "First Blood", starring Sylvester Stalone, is not a great example of realism. But the psychological aspect of it is very interesting, and how past experiences make Johny Rambo freak out if pushed. Now imagine the story was instead about Rambo losing finger after finger.
There are examples of very interesting characters that are cripples, such as Glokta in "Blade Itself". But it takes great storytelling to pull that off, not randomly generated nutrient paste.
I'll use Eldritch Horror (the board game) example again. EH is similar game in many aspects in that you have a team of people working together and they can accumulate various injuries. Unlike Rimworld, it's very goal-oriented (with time limit) and tightly designed. It's a game that deals out a plethora of random punishments on players, mostly when you fail some kind of challenge. But the kind of players it attracts are not bothered by having characters with paranoia, leg wound, hypothermia. Those are semi-permanent, they go away with time or may be removed by a lucky roll on 'rest' action. Unlike in Rimworld, these injuries make future encounters more dangerous, pushing characters close to death. To a degree, players like them because they make great stories when suddenly luck runs out or a crawling, bleeding character saves the world by a fluke. What many EH players hate however, are "impairment" tokens from some expansions. Those are permanent stat decreases and extremely rare to get rid of. Impairment tokens function very much like scars/lost limbs in Rimworld, and player response is similar.
Quote from: Perq on June 27, 2017, 01:17:51 AM
I wouldn't mind missing limbs being important if not for the artificial gating of their availability.
If have to spend 700 silver only to roll a dice and then get nothing I'm interested in buying (because I'm looking for bionics only), something is seriously wrong.
I'd much rather have them be 50% more expensive than 50% less available.
Yeah, pretty much this. I don't mind so much if there's a way to compensate somehow, even if expensive. But near-perma-gimp of a valued pawn is incredibly easy atm, and there's jack-shit but RNGeebus to thank or blame for it.
I think it's pretty obvious, if nothing else, that wound locations and results badly need their weights adjusted, if the penalties are going to stay as they are.
[offtopic]Thanks for the heads-up on Eldritch Horror, b0rsuk; looks interesting.[/offtopic]
Yep it is an issue with A17. I thought power claws had been removed from the game after not seeing one for over 4 years in game.
My thoughts on redressing the issue:
1. Expand prosthetics that can be manufactured by the player. I understand there is probably a mod for this but as a vanilla permadeath player this is not an option. The ability to manufacture something other than a peg leg would be good. Just simple prosthetics not bionics, using steal, plasteal and some components.
2. Provide means to protect damageable body parts. So Gloves, Boots, Goggles etc.
3. Adjust the severe damage (Limb loss, Digit and eye) based on the damage type:
Bruising damage should never result in the loss of a body part.
Small calibre damage, Pistols, rodent teeth small chance loss of digits (very small chance)
Medium and Large calibre stepping up the potential for loss.
Getting hit in the hand by a 303 rifle should and would destroy your hand. Getting bitten by a rodent (I have been) won't cause you to loose your finger.
Finally Social fights;
Who fights with someone on your own team until you have "destroyed both their thumbs". especially while others stand by and watch. "Oh look there is Ray snapping Di Neros thumbs off, guess he won't be making any nice beds to sleep on any more. I'll just get a simple meal and watch the show." For reference just Youtube search people fighting and you can see it doesn't end this way even when its full on serious. So either reduce the damage or allow one or both parties social fighting to be arrested.
Just my thoughts on the subject
I think you should have bought that Power Claw. It's really an okay bionic. It shines on characters with high Melee and Shooting skills (both 10+). No, he won't become a sniper, but give him some mid range weapon and put him in the front row. You get an average shooter and a scary melee combatant in one.
Quote from: b0rsuk on June 27, 2017, 07:08:05 AM
I think you should have bought that Power Claw. It's really an okay bionic. It shines on characters with high Melee and Shooting skills (both 10+). No, he won't become a sniper, but give him some mid range weapon and put him in the front row. You get an average shooter and a scary melee combatant in one.
Don't worry I did. :)
Power claw does cap the manipulation loss from fingers at 8%, but I don't like giving my pawns something where social fights are suddenly super lethal.
Quote from: mumblemumble on June 26, 2017, 04:08:06 PM
Bozo raises a good point, but more about amputation than anything - currently limbs are too easily ripped off, when in reality a bunch of punches would NEVER rip your arm off (unless you were the hulk or had razor blade knuckles) but would instead leave your arm so bruised you couldn't use it.
Again. We need amputation thresholds, where each weapon/bullet is nominally capable of amputating accordingly.
I've noticed that even over the course of a year my colonists, no matter how skilled or how well-equipped they are, begin to succumb to this. Fingers snap off like pretzel rods in the face of assault by creatures that have problems breaking skin in the real world. Eyes will become scarred by random squirrel attacks. Pila change from throwing spears to limb-severing guided missiles. Toes, noses, and ears go flying at the slightest provocation or fall off at the lightest touch of frostbite. Even brain injuries are relatively common. EPoE has been a lifesaver for my colonies and I'd consider it a virtually essential mod at this point - Tynan's adjustments to body part 'size' in A17 have made them come off way too easily.
What I'd like to see is having it possible for a body part or a limb to reach 0 HP (and non-functional status) without having it completely destroyed, with each non-essential body part having a certain damage threshold that's required to sever it. Example, an attack that causes less than half a body part's total HP cannot sever it under any circumstances, an attack that causes between 50 and 75% of a part's HP can sever it if it's already destroyed, 75-150% can sever it if it's damaged, and anything higher than that severs it on hit.
Right, but determining how is the difficult part.
maybe keeping in mind the body part, if theres bone, how much bone, what type of damage, ect
To be honest this could be covered under an entire health revamp.
Quote from: mumblemumble on June 28, 2017, 01:48:55 AM
Right, but determining how is the difficult part.
maybe keeping in mind the body part, if theres bone, how much bone, what type of damage, ect
To be honest this could be covered under an entire health revamp.
And this is pretty much what we need, weapon and severing considered. :@
All valid points. -Don't take damage- is really a good way to look at it.
However, our pawns are also able to survive laying on the floor covered in 5 other's people's blood with 6 gun shot wounds to their body after being patched up by a guy with a 2 doctor skill.
Quote from: RimSol on June 28, 2017, 09:40:59 AM
our pawns are also able to survive laying on the floor covered in 5 other's people's blood with 6 gun shot wounds to their body after being patched up by a guy with a 2 doctor skill.
That just shows again that squirrels are more dangerous than assault rifles. ;D I don't expect our weapons to work like in a movie, but I can't imagine a skilled shooter not being able to hit a group of tribesmen charging at him badly enough to down a lot of them.
Something that has been criticized before: I personally don't like how armor reduces damage by a given percentage.
To use squirrels as an example again: A colonist in power armor could still be downed by them. Imagine Iron Man dying because of a mad squirrel ...
Tested it: Colonist with melee skill 8 and normal power armor was attacked by five manhunting squirrels, took out for and was then downed by the fifth one.Generally, our wishes would make the game easier in every way though ... I think there's just not a perfect solution.
Quote from: niklas7737 on June 28, 2017, 10:52:07 AM
Quote from: RimSol on June 28, 2017, 09:40:59 AM
our pawns are also able to survive laying on the floor covered in 5 other's people's blood with 6 gun shot wounds to their body after being patched up by a guy with a 2 doctor skill.
That just shows again that squirrels are more dangerous than assault rifles. ;D I don't expect our weapons to work like in a movie, but I can't imagine a skilled shooter not being able to hit a group of tribesmen charging at him badly enough to down a lot of them.
Somethink that has been criticized before: I personally don't like how armor reduces damage by a given percentage.
To use squirrels as an example again: A colonist in power armor could still be downed by them. Imagine Iron Man dying because of a mad squirrel ...
Tested it: Colonist with melee skill 8 and normal power armor was attacked by five manhunting squirrels, took out for and was then downed by the fifth one.
Generally, our wishes would make the game easier in every way though ... I think there's just not a perfect solution.
As much as I agree that much of this is horribly, *horribly* unrealistic, there's more than just the gameplay difficulty vs realism balance to consider.
Part of the appeal of this game (IMO) is the absurdity of some of the things these colonists encounter. A furry tsunami of manhunting squirrels being but one example. I actually bought the game because reading the "funniest things that have happened to you in Rimworld" thread in the Stories subforum had me crying I was laughing so hard.
So I agree that the game's challenge should not come from arbitrary difficulty or frustrating mechanics, but I don't want to see it get so "realistic" that the absurdity goes away.
The game is chalk full of absurdity and that's part of its charm. You'll notice that absurd mechanics are not called out at an even rate, and that's because some of the absurdity is "fun", IE it offers interesting choices, requires skill to succeed, or rewards planning.
Guns in this game have pathetic range. Real guns could easily kill raiders well offscreen on normal-sized maps, even with amateurs firing them (similarly, raiders could kill colonists from offscreen). I've yet to see this listed as a major strike to the game though, because the abstraction works to make players choose position, weapons, and how to handle different opponents carefully.
Losing limbs arbitrarily at an unrealistic rate is a problem because it is ALSO a gameplay design detriment. It's not just that pawns are taking permanent injuries to creatures a healthy human adult could trivially dumpster while wearing basic clothing and a pair of gloves. It's that pawns are getting maimed in this fashion while the developer is simultaneously telling us that changes were made "for balance", "to make melee more viable", or in a way that makes different playstyles available to the player.
The A17 changes make it so that the overwhelming majority of possible combat approaches in the possibility space of Rimworld are non-viable; they essentially guarantee permanent damage to pawns, often sooner than later. That dissonance is frustrating, inconsistent to other mechanic design, and not just illogical in the framework of reality but also within the framework of Rimworld itself.
Maybe "rig it so that your pawns never take damage" is intended design. If that is so, however, why implement mechanics that encourage melee at all? Why bother with a rich cover system if the real game incentives drive players to forgo using it and instead come up with every possible method to avoid exposing pawns to any gunfire at all? This is why permanent dismemberment from what is, in game terms, relatively minor damage otherwise doesn't work.
Quote from: Aerial on June 28, 2017, 11:14:25 AM
Quote from: niklas7737 on June 28, 2017, 10:52:07 AM
Quote from: RimSol on June 28, 2017, 09:40:59 AM
our pawns are also able to survive laying on the floor covered in 5 other's people's blood with 6 gun shot wounds to their body after being patched up by a guy with a 2 doctor skill.
You can murder people with squirrels without artificially boosting the rate of lost fingers/toes/limbs. Blood loss IS a thing, already. Your example also has problems when ONE squirrel can do so extremely easily.
That just shows again that squirrels are more dangerous than assault rifles. ;D I don't expect our weapons to work like in a movie, but I can't imagine a skilled shooter not being able to hit a group of tribesmen charging at him badly enough to down a lot of them.
Somethink that has been criticized before: I personally don't like how armor reduces damage by a given percentage.
To use squirrels as an example again: A colonist in power armor could still be downed by them. Imagine Iron Man dying because of a mad squirrel ...
Tested it: Colonist with melee skill 8 and normal power armor was attacked by five manhunting squirrels, took out for and was then downed by the fifth one.
Generally, our wishes would make the game easier in every way though ... I think there's just not a perfect solution.
As much as I agree that much of this is horribly, *horribly* unrealistic, there's more than just the gameplay difficulty vs realism balance to consider.
Part of the appeal of this game (IMO) is the absurdity of some of the things these colonists encounter. A furry tsunami of manhunting squirrels being but one example. I actually bought the game because reading the "funniest things that have happened to you in Rimworld" thread in the Stories subforum had me crying I was laughing so hard.
So I agree that the game's challenge should not come from arbitrary difficulty or frustrating mechanics, but I don't want to see it get so "realistic" that the absurdity goes away.
There's a difference between "absurdity" and "f*ck you, game", followed by not playing again for a long time.
My first and so far only "successful" colony in A17 is up to 8 people. 7 of them now have some kind of artificial leg. Two of them arrived with severe and painful scarring/impairment to a leg but the other 5 had it one-shot off in combat by either an enemy sniper or a scyther.
FIVE out of EIGHT colonists have lost a leg to ONE SHOT. The colony has only existed for three years.
2 of them have some kind of artificial arm due to having an arm shot off, and there are 2 more that have a missing finger that is, in comparison, laughably low-priority. My animal tamer has a bionic leg, a simple artificial arm, and a missing finger on the remaining flesh hand, and yet not a one of them was lost while trying to tame an animal.
So did the limb/digit hit chance go up astronomically, or did I just suddenly get stupider between A16 and now? I am using the same combat tactics I always have: everyone shoots from behind a full-cover wall and sandbags with turrets in front. Except for one guy who got caught trying to hide behind a tree, every limb loss happened because a sniper got some 0.fuckyou% shot to connect behind full cover. I can see no solution except, as noted, to never enter any situation where you can take damage at all. I never wanted to use boring "trap mazes" but in the future what choice will I have if I don't want an entire colony on crutches?
Forget the ship. The end-game win condition for this colony is EVERYONE HAS ALL THEIR LIMBS. In order to make this happen without pissing away all my money 700 silver at a time, I have to send a caravan out every single season by drop-pod to do a long and dangerous circuit of every settlement within range, searching desperately for bionics. I had one married couple divorce because the guy was spending so much time on the road that he and his wife forgot how to talk to each other.
How much fun is it to try and figure out who's going to do this caravan run when most of the colony has one leg or one arm? NOT VERY.
TL;DR: limbs and digits fly off at the drop of the hat, to the point where for me the entire game now revolves around replacing them. If you change this, then the rareness and expense of bionics would make them a coveted luxury rather than an infuriatingly out of reach necessity.
Quote from: Toast on June 28, 2017, 03:19:30 PM
My first and so far only "successful" colony in A17 is up to 8 people. 7 of them now have some kind of artificial leg. Two of them arrived with severe and painful scarring/impairment to a leg but the other 5 had it one-shot off in combat by either an enemy sniper or a scyther.
FIVE out of EIGHT colonists have lost a leg to ONE SHOT. The colony has only existed for three years.
2 of them have some kind of artificial arm due to having an arm shot off, and there are 2 more that have a missing finger that is, in comparison, laughably low-priority. My animal tamer has a bionic leg, a simple artificial arm, and a missing finger on the remaining flesh hand, and yet not a one of them was lost while trying to tame an animal.
So did the limb/digit hit chance go up astronomically, or did I just suddenly get stupider between A16 and now? I am using the same combat tactics I always have: everyone shoots from behind a full-cover wall and sandbags with turrets in front. Except for one guy who got caught trying to hide behind a tree, every limb loss happened because a sniper got some 0.fuckyou% shot to connect behind full cover. I can see no solution except, as noted, to never enter any situation where you can take damage at all. I never wanted to use boring "trap mazes" but in the future what choice will I have if I don't want an entire colony on crutches?
Forget the ship. The end-game win condition for this colony is EVERYONE HAS ALL THEIR LIMBS. In order to make this happen without pissing away all my money 700 silver at a time, I have to send a caravan out every single season by drop-pod to do a long and dangerous circuit of every settlement within range, searching desperately for bionics. I had one married couple divorce because the guy was spending so much time on the road that he and his wife forgot how to talk to each other.
How much fun is it to try and figure out who's going to do this caravan run when most of the colony has one leg or one arm? NOT VERY.
TL;DR: limbs and digits fly off at the drop of the hat, to the point where for me the entire game now revolves around replacing them. If you change this, then the rareness and expense of bionics would make them a coveted luxury rather than an infuriatingly out of reach necessity.
The rate at which 'sub-parts' (smaller parts of a major one, like fingers, toes, internal organs, etc) get damaged was increased dramatically between A16 and A17. I hate to say it, but limbs coming off to high-powered weapons was always common - If you ever fought tribals with pila in A16 you'd know those things were capable of taking off an arm or a leg in one hit (though they got nerfed in A17). It's just that now you don't have to just worry about whole limbs, but fingers, toes, ears, noses, and eyes, all things that were a lot safer in A16. I've had colonists lose these fragile body parts despite being fully-armored in one hit from a fox or a wolf, and let's not talk about eye scarring.
Quote from: niklas7737 on June 28, 2017, 10:52:07 AM
That just shows again that squirrels are more dangerous than assault rifles. ;D I don't expect our weapons to work like in a movie, but I can't imagine a skilled shooter not being able to hit a group of tribesmen charging at him badly enough to down a lot of them.
Somethink that has been criticized before: I personally don't like how armor reduces damage by a given percentage.
To use squirrels as an example again: A colonist in power armor could still be downed by them. Imagine Iron Man dying because of a mad squirrel ...
Tested it: Colonist with melee skill 8 and normal power armor was attacked by five manhunting squirrels, took out for and was then downed by the fifth one.
Well of course Iron Man wouldn't be killed by squirrels. In the Marvel universe, squirrels act on the side of Justice, as can be seen below:
[spoiler](http://i.imgur.com/ByhJO2t.jpg)[/spoiler]
The idea of surviving several gunshot wounds makes sense : some people can get shot lots of times to non vital areas and survive just fine, if with less blood in them
I also agree about the percentage based system : Xcom handled this nicely, where armor had a default block amount and weapons had a random range of damage to them as well : this meant that for instance, kevlar could potentially 100% block a pistol round without any trauma, but due to the randomness, it wasn't always reliable if the block occurred, or if the round slightly penetrated.
There was also code in place where excessive blows would still wear down the armor even if it didn't go through, so firing a mini-gun at someone with Kevlar wasn't completely useless, but would eventually chew through it.
This would be interesting, but would certainly need re-balancing : would also be interesting if maybe power armor could stop rounds, but would potentially leave bruised : imagine someone with a broken neck from being shot in the face with a sniper rifle, because the helmet blocked it, but the force made their neck snap
....also this has gone HORRIBLY off topic, but its also good discussion.
Quote from: Trylobyte on June 28, 2017, 04:37:35 PM
The rate at which 'sub-parts' (smaller parts of a major one, like fingers, toes, internal organs, etc) get damaged was increased dramatically between A16 and A17. I hate to say it, but limbs coming off to high-powered weapons was always common - If you ever fought tribals with pila in A16 you'd know those things were capable of taking off an arm or a leg in one hit (though they got nerfed in A17).
I've definitely had colonists lose whole limbs before, just never at this horrifying rate. If it's not because of A17 changes, then is there a way to rename my colony "Unluckiest Bastards on the Rim"?
Quote from: Toast on June 28, 2017, 06:56:12 PM
Quote from: Trylobyte on June 28, 2017, 04:37:35 PM
The rate at which 'sub-parts' (smaller parts of a major one, like fingers, toes, internal organs, etc) get damaged was increased dramatically between A16 and A17. I hate to say it, but limbs coming off to high-powered weapons was always common - If you ever fought tribals with pila in A16 you'd know those things were capable of taking off an arm or a leg in one hit (though they got nerfed in A17).
I've definitely had colonists lose whole limbs before, just never at this horrifying rate. If it's not because of A17 changes, then is there a way to rename my colony "Unluckiest Bastards on the Rim"?
I suspect its because of a "wealth of targets" issue.
Before when it was just the primary stuff that would get "regularly" shot out/cut off, there were fewer targets to hit so you didn't see amputations so much. But now there are
far more targets and suddenly we are seeing more amputations? I haven't looked at the code, but to me that tells me once a hit has been determined the total "size" of amputate-able body parts greatly exceeds the total "size" of non amputate-able body parts.
I think I remember reading something about Tynan increasing body part size some time back?
Perhaps he incorrectly accounted for the quantity difference when deciding to include 'sub-parts' to the readily amputate-able list?
The current system is detailed, but not necessarily even that realistic. I would like to try a simpler system, like the one from very early Rimworld alphas, where characters had just HP bars. It could be some kind of compromise, like no limb loss until at 50% health or lower. Yes, it's nice to quickly headshot an incoming enemy, but it cuts both ways, and the determining factor is random, almost completely out of your control.
Tynan normally favors gameplay over realism. In this case he's clinging to realistic a mechanic that is not especially fun. It boggles my mind. I guess he just knows no better, hasn't played story generating board games like Eldritch Horror and Robinson Cruzoe: Adventures on Cursed Island.
Quote from: b0rsuk on June 29, 2017, 01:46:52 AM
The current system is detailed, but not necessarily even that realistic. I would like to try a simpler system, like the one from very early Rimworld alphas, where characters had just HP bars. It could be some kind of compromise, like no limb loss until at 50% health or lower. Yes, it's nice to quickly headshot an incoming enemy, but it cuts both ways, and the determining factor is random, almost completely out of your control.
Tynan normally favors gameplay over realism. In this case he's clinging to realistic a mechanic that is not especially fun. It boggles my mind. I guess he just knows no better, hasn't played story generating board games like Eldritch Horror and Robinson Cruzoe: Adventures on Cursed Island.
I don't want a simple HP system. That would be so boring. I like the detail in the current system, even if the implementation isn't quite there yet.
I think changing how armor works would be a big step forward, i.e. armor blocks all damage below a certain per hit threshold but the armor takes damage over time, so a guy in power armor would be immune to squirrels, at least until he got swarmed by a hundred of them and they had time to wear down his armor enough to get to him.
I'd really like to see the weapon accuracy go way up and have the armor and damage mechanics fixed to make the results make sense.
It would also be cool to have different types of armor that are better against different weapons. A steel breastplate could protect better against arrows and pilas but not be great against guns, while a kevlar vest is really good against bullets but can be pierced by pilas, greatbows and swords, etc.
Quote from: Aerial on June 29, 2017, 08:26:23 AM
I don't want a simple HP system. That would be so boring. I like the detail in the current system, even if the implementation isn't quite there yet. ...
Agreed. I love the current system. It may need balancing but I want it to stay.
Quote from: Aerial on June 29, 2017, 08:26:23 AM
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I'd really like to see the weapon accuracy go way up and have the armor and damage mechanics fixed to make the results make sense.
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I would also like to see a separate visual effect for when an attack hits armor. Just so it is easier to tell mid combat which targets are armored. I mean its easy enough for power armor, but Armor Vests are more frequently encountered and can get hidden under Jackets and such. Which makes it difficult to identify the armored targets in a fight, without pausing and manually examining every enemy...
Also it would just add to the visuals of the game I think.
Quote from: erdrik on June 29, 2017, 09:46:20 AM
I would also like to see a separate visual effect for when an attack hits armor. Just so it is easier to tell mid combat which targets are armored. I mean its easy enough for power armor, but Armor Vests are more frequently encountered and can get hidden under Jackets and such. Which makes it difficult to identify the armored targets in a fight, without pausing and manually examining every enemy...
A visual effect could get kind of busy (what would it even look like? sparks?) but some kind of notification would be nice. There was a mod in A16 I think that added a bunch of new text motes during combat, so you'd see feedback on things like hits, misses, damage... it would be nice to have feedback like "armor blocked" or "dodged" so you'd know whether your tactics were working or not.
There is a notification when a bullet is absorbed by armor. It's easiest to observe when sniping centipedes. Every now and then you will hear a pickaxe sound and the centipede will jerk backwards slightly without emitting the pain sound.
The visual effect for striking armor is already in the game. It's a subtle white flash.
It looks a bit like the "component broken down" icon and comes and goes away quickly.
More on-topic, bionics have definitely gotten rarer in A17 and losing a limb is a lot more common. On the other hand, prosthetics got buffed a bit. Overall, it's pretty much guaranteed to have a colony of cripples after a couple of years. I assume we're supposed to swap out colonists like underwear and not care about the stories they tell? It doesn't seem right to me, whichever way I look at it.
Quote from: Mehni on June 29, 2017, 02:09:50 PM
The visual effect for striking armor is already in the game. It's a subtle white flash.
It looks a bit like the "component broken down" icon and comes and goes away quickly.
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Quote from: b0rsuk on June 29, 2017, 01:55:15 PM
There is a notification when a bullet is absorbed by armor. It's easiest to observe when sniping centipedes. Every now and then you will hear a pickaxe sound and the centipede will jerk backwards slightly without emitting the pain sound.
Huh... Ive never noticed it before... I guess Ill have to keep an eye out.
Still, perhaps it should be made more noticeable? I mean feedback is suppose to be noticed, and Im sure Im not the only one that failed to notice it...
"Dodged" is certainly vanilla, altho you have to pay attn to see it
WRT power armour attack via squirrels I agree that it's currently clumsy (as is the power armour), but think of it as the animals attacking the /joints/: this is the standard heavy armour weakness IRL (as well as multiple scifi/fantasy fiction). Clumsiness from wearing a heavy suit would impact (hah!) upon attack effectiveness vs small quick opponents such as squirrels. IMO power armour should allow an automatic 'stomp' melee attack to alleviate these sorts of encounters vs small animals, while still being able to be swarmed (ie not completely invulnerable)
Completely agree WRT the rebalance of injuries suggestions BTW; legs, arms, fingers etc being shot/bitten/torn off so frequently is irritating unless you install a prosthetics bench mod, or allow more surgery options :(
Quote from: b0rsuk on June 29, 2017, 01:46:52 AM
I would like to try a simpler system, like the one from very early Rimworld alphas, where characters had just HP bars.
In A6, the first alpha after this change was made, there were no bionics or prosthetics. Lost arms and eyes were permanent, and a lost leg meant permanent incapacitation. A7 brought bionics/prosthetics to make the damage less permanent, and peg legs meant losing a leg wasn't as bad as dying even if you didn't have a replacement. Expanding the system to include other body parts would solve the problem most of this thread is discussing, while keeping damage taken between the two extremes of "permanent" and "heals up in a few days".
Or if the occasional missing finger is supposed to be a story element, like scars would be if they ever actually happened, then they need to have less of an effect on manipulation (like how missing a leg doesn't mean you're paralyzed anymore). Or manipulation needs to have less of an effect on certain work stats.
Then I guess simple HP bar was only in the Kickstarter pitch video ?
Quote from: b0rsuk on June 30, 2017, 04:07:23 AM
Then I guess simple HP bar was only in the Kickstarter pitch video ?
It must have been HP pre-A6, but A6 is when I started playing so I don't know how the old system worked exactly.
I think I like Vlad0mi3r's suggestions.
Craftable simple prosthetics for disasters.
Gardening gloves and steel-toed boots for the daily rough and tumble.
Goggles for +1 social 8)
Maybe there should be a limb status between "will heal" and "torn off". "Ruined"?
I think a damaged limb for example (could happen with vital organs as well) should initially be healed normally so that blood loss and infection risk are no problems any more and then there should be a risk of a permanent injury staying and heavily affecting the limb's effectiveness.
This injury wouldn't mean a total loss though. It could be removed with difficult surgery maybe requiring a few glitterworld medpacks, needing more than just one surgery or some sort of expensive preparation (maybe taking blood preserves or tissue to transplant from elsewhere on the pawn's body prior to the main surgery?).
A smaller permanent loss of efficiency might even stay because of the limitations of medical possibilities in our colony on this Rimworld.
With this implemented, there would be a huge difference in difficulty between treating mild and heavy injuries. In return, bodyparts would only have to be completely destroyed if they were damaged by a really extreme force.
PS: This (among other things requested in this thread) could be done by a mod, couldn't it?
Some of the changes suggested would be appropriate in the scope of a mod but the basic underlying mechanic, specifically the mechanism used to choose hit locations, is pretty much buggered. It shouldn't be anywhere near as likely to hit an individual finger as the torso, as an easy example.
How I farm bionic in A17.
Get a jogger pawn, install 2 bionic legs on him. Make a 1 man caravan and check out nearby settlements for trade. Usually settlements will have some in stocks (Tribe settlements may not have any bionic). It may take half a year (may be less, I only check them every half a year) for them to restock thou. If you are willing to risk addiction you can even put the pawn on gojuice/luciferium and he travel even faster. A pawn can carry enough food and silver for 1 bionic parts. If you come to a settlements and find a bunch of other parts you want, you may use transport pod to send in more money. Bring some Thrumbo horn/AI persona core/Yayo if you intend to buy more parts without using the transport pod.
Oh one more thing, send the pawn out in the morning after breakfast, that way he will start off fully rested, making the trip more efficient.
Quote from: Mday on July 04, 2017, 04:36:44 AM
How I farm bionic in A17.
Get a jogger pawn, install 2 bionic legs on him.
Heh.
"How to become a millionaire: First, get a million dollars"