One of the longest standing issues I feel this game still has is that a melee pawn stands 0 chance during a base rush. The fact multiple pawns can occupy a single tile to attack is probably the biggest issue about this. Is there any plans to make melee colonists viable? I groan every time I get a brawler, and a brawler should be an asset as someone who can freeze a chokepoint... not a hinderance.
It's been an issue since release more or less but 3 years on I'm hoping for some sort of major change now...
There are a few problems with melee, I think.
1) They can't avoid taking damage. Being in a melee means they're likely to be hit, since even 20 melee skill only gives a 50% dodge chance and armor doesn't block everything. And that's just in a melee with another melee user. Even masterwork shields will only block the first volley of fire (if that) of a medium-sized raid and raiders don't care about shooting into a melee and killing their mate to kill your colonist.
2) The larger the raid gets the more outnumbered you are. Even a level 20 brawler with legendary power armor, legendary shield belt, and legendary plasteel longsword can get downed when he has to fight waves of tribals with spears while also being shot at.
3) They can't disengage. Once a melee fighter gets into a brawl they're stuck there until they run out of enemies because of the movement speed penalty inflicted by being attacked. Not even being hit, just being attacked. Ranged people can break off before melee get to them, but once you're in melee you're in trouble.
4) Friendly fire. You can position your ranged characters so they don't run the risk of shooting each other, but not so with melee guys - They will, due to scatter, always have a chance of getting shot by their allies if the allies decide to shoot at whoever they're fighting. Given there's no way to tell them who to target or who not to shoot...
5) Grenades. Any decent ranged character can avoid them by outranging them. Any melee character will have to face-tank them.
6) Targeting. This is mainly a problem when trying to use melee offensively. Put simply, a ranged pawn will shoot at any pawn in their range. Melee pawns need to chase their targets, something drafted pawns will not do unless specifically told to. This essentially demotes them to roadblocks, since managing them in combat requires a great deal of micro as you constantly have to give them new targets. Frustratingly, the better they are the more this becomes a hassle since they will kill their target in a few swings then stand there doing nothing until assigned a new target. While I can always set them to aggressive then undraft them I prefer to avoid losing that control since they're just as prone to wander off as they are to fight. I'd love the option to 'release' them like I release hunting animals, to let them run around and hunt enemies down on their own once all the priority targets are dead.
Even with mods that make the game a lot more melee-friendly - We're talking 90-damage weapons with a half-second swing time on pawns with 700% move speed - I find myself always going back to ranged weapons. Late-game raids turning into zerg rushes are always what kills my enthusiasm for melee - 10 maxed-out melee colonists can't do what 10 middling ranged colonists with decent weapons can do a lot quicker and safer.
I thought the "all standing on one tile" thing was already addressed?
Near as I can tell they only do it while moving long distances now...
Things I would like to see in/for melee:
1.
Pawns standing behind a target have a greatly reduced chance of getting hit by ranged attacks that miss the target:
E = Enemy
T = Enemy Target
S = Colonist Shooter
(E-T--------S) = E is covered by T and so will benefit from reduced chance to get hit by missed shots from S
(T-E--------S) = E is not covered by T and so will have the normal chance to get hit by missed shots from S
Why do I want this? Because then you can position your brawlers behind incoming enemies and they will be relatively safe from friendly fire. It even comes with a counter balance in that it also protects the back lines of the enemy raiders from your ranged fire(which should make sneaking behind the enemy with brawlers more useful).
2.
Armor should have a Minimum Damage Threshold. Any damage dealt that does not exceed the armor's Minimum Damage Threshold is 100% negated and does not harm the wearer(but still damages the armor).
3.
EDIT: Nvm. It seems this one was already fixed in A17.
Damage that armor takes should be reduced by what the resulting damage dealt to the pawn would be. Currently shoddy armor with lower reduction values last longer than legendary armor because armor just takes what it isn't dealt to the pawn. 10 damage at 10% reduction means shoddy armor only takes 1 damage, but a Legendary armor that reduces at 100% takes 10 damage and degrades faster.
It is:
10 incoming damage -> Reduced by 40% = 6 damage to the pawn and 4 damage the armor
10 incoming damage -> Reduced by 90% = 1 damage to the pawn and 9 damage the armor
It should be:
10 incoming damage -> Reduced by 40% = 6 damage to the pawn and 6 damage the armor
10 incoming damage -> Reduced by 90% = 1 damage to the pawn and 1 damage the armor
4.
- Multi Targeting. Brawlers in melee are currently too focused on one target when they are surrounded. They should focus their attention on the most immediate threat(Enemies who's attack swing is not currently on cooldown), and should get a dodge bonus against which ever enemy they are currently focused on.
Quote from: erdrik on June 30, 2017, 05:40:56 PM
3.
Damage that armor takes should be reduced by what the resulting damage dealt to the pawn would be. Currently shoddy armor with lower reduction values last longer than legendary armor because armor just takes what it isn't dealt to the pawn. 10 damage at 10% reduction means shoddy armor only takes 1 damage, but a Legendary armor that reduces at 100% takes 10 damage and degrades faster.
I'm 99% sure this was meant to be addressed in A17 - was it not?
Quote from: jamaicancastle on June 30, 2017, 06:18:13 PM
...
I'm 99% sure this was meant to be addressed in A17 - was it not?
Oh. Was it? I guess I missed that. I wonder how it was addressed...
EDIT:
Ah. Yup. I must have missed that when I read the update list before.
QuoteArmor now takes a constant fraction of incoming damage instead of absorbing all prevented damage. This solves an issue where good quality armor would be destroyed sooner.
You know what'd be great? Shields, as in one you hold in your hand. Melee sucks because guns are better, and no amount of Adam Jensen-ing and Power Armor-ing your Colonist will fix the core issues which has been explained quite nicely by posters above.
Melee combat while using a personal shield.... err... shield belt is still very strong in certain circumstances.
But that shows just how strong the shield belt is. Considering it is entirely possible to mow people down with a minigun while using said shield belt and that finding a really good melee weapon is a lot harder than finding usable gun... that isn't really helpful for brawlers.
The change to allow guns to be fired while being attacked in melee essentially removed the main benefit of melee combat. IF the AI had been changed to reflect the game mechanic change this would be even more obvious. ::)
Maybe try out the Star Wars lightsaber+force mods.
Lightsaber area bit overpowred compared to vanilia, but your mellee fighter geting new ability to deflect incoming bullets and with force skills they can like a jedi reflect them.
Surly a great improvment for mellee fighter.
[offtopic]Interestingly enough, slug-throwing weapons are actually the bane of Jedi in the Star Wars universe.
- They have a much faster rate of fire than blasters; Jedi are badass, sure, but still have limits.
- Blaster projectiles are slow, unlike bullets. You can SEE blaster shots move.
- Bullets are harder to see than slow, glowing blaster shots..
- Unlike blaster shots, bullets vaporize when they hit the saber's "blade"; they can't be deflected to other targets.[/offtpic]
This Google search (https://www.google.com/search?q=slug+thrower+vs+jedi) on the subject is pretty amusing reading. Another good one is the "Ewok Apocalypse" ;D. Man, the Rebels are assholes![/offtopic]
Thats hollywood show, blasters are energy based do you realy think they are slower then laserbeams ? :-)
And btw. didn't train jedi with mask to sense incoming fire with the force. But i would agree, a jedi wouldn't be able to deflect any single bullet from a minigun ! :-) As Jedi i just would turn the pawn so he shoot at his own people ! :-)
No i don't want now start a star wars debat, i don't realy care about it. I just want point at these mods that made brawler/mellee very dangerous to even mechanoids. To bad a A16 mod about mellee didn't got updated yet.
problem is numbers, instead of facing harder and harder enemies, default game throws more gun folder, eliminating any strategy or tactics, only raw gunpower matters in such conditions.
Quote from: Bozobub on July 03, 2017, 02:29:32 AM
[offtopic]Interestingly enough, slug-throwing weapons are actually the bane of Jedi in the Star Wars universe.
- They have a much faster rate of fire than blasters; Jedi are badass, sure, but still have limits.
- Blaster projectiles are slow, unlike bullets. You can SEE blaster shots move.
- Bullets are harder to see than slow, glowing blaster shots..
- Unlike blaster shots, bullets vaporize when they hit the saber's "blade"; they can't be deflected to other targets.[/offtpic]
This Google search (https://www.google.com/search?q=slug+thrower+vs+jedi) on the subject is pretty amusing reading. Another good one is the "Ewok Apocalypse" ;D. Man, the Rebels are assholes![/offtopic]
Off-topic: Even if a Jedi could reliably block or deflect bullets, the ultimate counters to a Jedi with a lightsaber would be shotguns (multiple simultaneous projectiles, you can't block all of them) and flamethrowers (a lightsaber will actually make this worse due to providing an extra ignition source). Inaccurate but fast-firing weapons would also be dangerous.
On-topic: Melee still falls over even with a lot of buffs because of the inherent weaknesses of close combat and combined arms. I have a suite of mods installed in my current game that should make melee incredible. Better shield belts, melee weapons that do incredible damage at insane speeds, even better armor, higher move speed to close combat distances better, you name it, it's all there. All without any significant buffs to ranged combat, or at least nothing that comes close to the bonuses melee gets. And you know what? I still find myself going ranged. It's due to the multitude of problems I listed above, and you know what, I'm even going to add a new one. I'll post it here and there.
6) Targeting. This is mainly a problem when trying to use melee offensively. Put simply, a ranged pawn will shoot at any pawn in their range. Melee pawns need to chase their targets, something drafted pawns will not do unless specifically told to. This essentially demotes them to roadblocks, since managing them in combat requires a great deal of micro as you constantly have to give them new targets. Frustratingly, the better they are the more this becomes a hassle since they will kill their target in a few swings then stand there doing nothing until assigned a new target. While I can always set them to aggressive then undraft them I prefer to avoid losing that control since they're just as prone to wander off as they are to fight. I'd love the option to 'release' them like I release hunting animals, to let them run around and hunt enemies down on their own once all the priority targets are dead.
Quote from: Trylobyte on July 03, 2017, 02:22:31 PM
...
6) Targeting. ... Melee pawns need to chase their targets, something drafted pawns will not do unless specifically told to. ... they will kill their target in a few swings then stand there doing nothing until assigned a new target. ... I'd love the option to 'release' them like I release hunting animals, to let them run around and hunt enemies down on their own once all the priority targets are dead.
I envision an AoE targeting interface. Like a ranged colonist, if you right click with a drafted melee colonist it should register EVERY target within a radius around that enemy and then the melee colonist would run over at attack those targets. The Target Zone should only follow the primary target, and enemies that leave the Target Zone should be removed from the target list. Otherwise when the various enemies inevitably spread out of range of the Target Zone it could result in the melee colonist just running back and forth through the crossfire... If the Primary Target is downed or killed a new enemy already in the Target Zone should take over as Primary Target.
I think this would allow more control than just a "Release-like" mechanic.
Quote from: Ser Kitteh on July 02, 2017, 12:16:06 PM
You know what'd be great? Shields, as in one you hold in your hand. Melee sucks because guns are better, and no amount of Adam Jensen-ing and Power Armor-ing your Colonist will fix the core issues which has been explained quite nicely by posters above.
Agree with this. There needs to be a big change to the way melee combat works.
If a high level brawler get into range of gun users, they should be dead. Honestly melee should have a much much lower cooldown period between attacks since a person should be carved into slices before a pawn can aim and unload an M16 into said melee user.
Quote from: Elixiar on July 03, 2017, 04:24:11 PM
Agree with this. There needs to be a big change to the way melee combat works.
If a high level brawler get into range of gun users, they should be dead. Honestly melee should have a much much lower cooldown period between attacks since a person should be carved into slices before a pawn can aim and unload an M16 into said melee user.
This is already generally true. A high-level brawler who gets in melee range of a ranged attacker -will- kill them. The problem is that while they are killing them they will generally either get surrounded by enemy melee fighters, shot to death by their target's friends, or shot to death by their own allies trying to shoot the same guy or someone close to them.
Tribe raids and mechs are the worst for melee. The latter is functionally untenable on even modest difficulties, forget extreme. Melee vs centipedes using anything except animals is a bad idea, and scythers don't exactly tickle.
Even with good layout to force 3v1s, you can still lose fingers to a spear unless you're rocking power armor. It works early game when you can club a few raiders before they start shooting and take their weapons as a tribe, but melee is crappy after that.
In any case where you can use melee somewhat effectively, guns with similar micro ability will do the job better, and have more flexibility for general purpose use.
"all standing on one tile" was *not* fixed. 3 or more raider pawns can fit in to 1 square to beat on a door or wall. If they're pathing from a decent distance, you can see 5+ raiders stacking up on one spot (can be abused in reverse with explosives or other tricks). It is even still possible for the player to get significantly more than 3 pawns into 3 squares so you can get 4v1s or even 6v1s through a door. This is not an environment where one reasonably concludes the issue was "fixed" :D.
While not a proper fix to melee, I propose we have the option to disable all firearms. We can disable things like hauling or hunting and incidents, why not go the whole way and get rid of certain items too? We can have swords and power armored knights, but no guns.
QuoteIt is even still possible for the player to get significantly more than 3 pawns into 3 squares so you can get 4v1s or even 6v1s through a door.
Fun fact: 20 guys with charge rifles standing in a doorway drop a centipede in 1 round. :P
I wonder if a18 will do anything about this? I like the idea behind it but there's just a great deal preventing that.
Quote from: erdrik on June 30, 2017, 05:40:56 PM
I thought the "all standing on one tile" thing was already addressed?
Near as I can tell they only do it while moving long distances now...
Things I would like to see in/for melee:
1.
Pawns standing behind a target have a greatly reduced chance of getting hit by ranged attacks that miss the target:
E = Enemy
T = Enemy Target
S = Colonist Shooter
(E-T--------S) = E is covered by T and so will benefit from reduced chance to get hit by missed shots from S
(T-E--------S) = E is not covered by T and so will have the normal chance to get hit by missed shots from S
Why do I want this? Because then you can position your brawlers behind incoming enemies and they will be relatively safe from friendly fire. It even comes with a counter balance in that it also protects the back lines of the enemy raiders from your ranged fire(which should make sneaking behind the enemy with brawlers more useful).
2.
Armor should have a Minimum Damage Threshold. Any damage dealt that does not exceed the armor's Minimum Damage Threshold is 100% negated and does not harm the wearer(but still damages the armor).
3.
EDIT: Nvm. It seems this one was already fixed in A17.
Damage that armor takes should be reduced by what the resulting damage dealt to the pawn would be. Currently shoddy armor with lower reduction values last longer than legendary armor because armor just takes what it isn't dealt to the pawn. 10 damage at 10% reduction means shoddy armor only takes 1 damage, but a Legendary armor that reduces at 100% takes 10 damage and degrades faster.
It is:
10 incoming damage -> Reduced by 40% = 6 damage to the pawn and 4 damage the armor
10 incoming damage -> Reduced by 90% = 1 damage to the pawn and 9 damage the armor
It should be:
10 incoming damage -> Reduced by 40% = 6 damage to the pawn and 6 damage the armor
10 incoming damage -> Reduced by 90% = 1 damage to the pawn and 1 damage the armor
4.
- Multi Targeting. Brawlers in melee are currently too focused on one target when they are surrounded. They should focus their attention on the most immediate threat(Enemies who's attack swing is not currently on cooldown), and should get a dodge bonus against which ever enemy they are currently focused on.
THIS MAN IS WISE.
LISTEN TO HIM.
Quote from: Ser Kitteh on July 04, 2017, 11:37:08 AM
While not a proper fix to melee, I propose we have the option to disable all firearms. We can disable things like hauling or hunting and incidents, why not go the whole way and get rid of certain items too? We can have swords and power armored knights, but no guns.
I like this. Disabling an item or item category from spawning would make for interesting games.
In general, firearms are superior because of all the reasons listed here as well as the most obvious: infinite ammo. A gun is really just a crappy club without both a projectile and a means to propel it. Indeed, cartridges (what rubes call a "bullet" but is actually a bullet + propellant) have made it pretty simple to load and fire a gun, but they are marvelous inventions and the result of centuries of perfecting firearms. They also require a lot of infrastructure. Reloading brass doesn't, you can do it at a desk with a small collection of tools. But shaping brass so it won't explode in the chamber is a lot more demanding an enterprise.
Like water, this basic consideration is abandoned for game balance. How annoying would it be for a new player to fight off two raids, spend all his ammo and find he is at the mercy of traders or a complicated system of research and workbenches and resource acquisition before he can fire his starter Survival Rifle again. It would also make hunting probably way too expensive to bother. Miniguns would just be a waste of ammo.
The reasons for it not being modeled are obvious, but it does reduce melee to an auxiliary skill at best, while IN REALITY most people fought by hand before the advent of firearms, and IN REALITY most people on a planet subject to poverty and regular hostility would fight by hand as well, out of simple necessity. They wouldn't just pick up a bow and go to work; learning to use a bow takes time (as a boy scout, I have had passing acquaintance with them and they are HARD to use, both by how much strength they require and to aim true while struggling with the draw). Most serious archers were trained from early childhood into adulthood.
In short, if I could dream a mod into existence, it would be one that added ammo requirements for all projectiles and would make them MUCH more rare in raids AND in trading. There would be less gun-fighting in general, and a gun would be both a serious threat and a major prize.
EDIT: It would also have flintlock-type guns, craft able, which have a much lower firing speed than even the sniper rifle. And gun range would be dramatically expanded to make them that much more dangerous to face, and desirable to have.
To be frank, that DOES sound like a good mod, and seems completely possible as well (although I haven't done any modding myself, so YMMV, of course ^^').
For the longest time I've eyed Combat Extended by I'm unwilling to give up my Rimsenal Extended, but I digress.
More systems in melee would certainly help. I realise Rimworld is a colony simulator first, but the fact is all players at some point become increasingly familiar. A large 10 man + colony with an outer perimeter, bunkers and killboxes with everyone wearing dusters and cowboy hats. You can't stay tribal forever with clubs and bows because if you don't pirates with rifles will burn your colony down.
Which is why I'm in favor of disabling certain items. Cant have pirates roflstomping you if they too have bows and spears.
Quote from: sadpickle on July 11, 2017, 06:19:20 PM
*SNIP*
And yet there is a mod that adds ammo and the game is BETTER For it. Of course, it requires re-balancing.
Melee used for hunting. More use of bows and cheap weapons. Change in weapon balance (specifically the minigun, which should absolutely MURDER anything, at the expense of huge ammo consumption)
If we're gonna talk melee, then we should talk armor. The fact of the matter is even something like a kevlar vest and a helmet takes too much resources. I propose something basic like mail shirts and gambessons for early game armour. It won't do jack against guns but it would very much work for melee weapons.
It should be balanced by having mail shirts being cheap but takes a very long time and being heavy (mail is the heaviest component in a set of plate armor) and gambessons should take something like animal wool or a ton of cloth at the expense of overheating. Heck, gambessons are basically thick winter clothing anyway.
These are just two apparels that would make melee viable, and we haven't even touched things like plate armor yet. And yes, I realise that we have medieval mods, but I'm talking vanilla additions, not full overhauls.
My own experience has been that if you design your base to reduce the effectiveness of ranged fighters, you can make a decent run of it. My own melee/shotgun/heavy smg/grenade tactics works fine up until I start seeing raids larger than 10; I do feel overwhelmed by sheer numbers in those tribal cases. To be fair, I don't usually see Mechanoids raids, but I've handled a few from ancient dangers but usually with casualties even when I manage to kite scythers into a centipede's firing angle. Though I feel most people simply don't build bases that utilize melee over ranged, and honestly have no real interest in it. I enjoy it, but I've always been fascinated by the idea of melee combat. In practice, I wouldn't enjoy it at all, way too much blood and gore.
I would agree blocking industrial age and beyond weaponry might be nice if post tribal to industrial ages had already been fleshed out; as it stands right now, I think it would perhaps limit the game too much.
Melee is useful for holding choke points against easy enemies. But unless you can lure ranged attackers into a murder box, you have to fight back with ranged.
How I deal with this is to have lots of ways through the perimeter wall. It sounds counter-intuitive, and actually I still need the large pincer-shaped entryways otherwise I'm just walking out into a hail of gunfire, but the reason this seems to work is because I can more easily set up a situation where enemies are not in good cover on at least on side.
When you have lots of great bows in the hands of your tribals, they can be surprisingly effective. Not as good as guns, but not as resource intensive either. And you can still use sand bags and walls to improve your cover.
Yes, you can design a base to allow melee to close w/o being shot, even without shield belts.
It doesn't matter. That won't save you vs sieges, sappers, mechanoids, or large numbers of dangerous manhunters like wargs. These situations will inflict bad damage or casualties on melee fighters on higher difficulties, consistently.
Melee can handle other encounters safely. The problem is, so can the countermeasures to the above threats. You already solved any issue melee could help with just by making a surviving design against other raid types.
By making a configuration that lasts more than 1/2 year to year on intense or extreme, you've obsoleted your melee outright. That's why I asserted it's early-game only in practice earlier. I say this despite that my most commonly used weapon in the first few months is a club. Once things scale up, the viability scales down. A shield belt pawn or two still has some utility into the end game, but melee isn't long-term viable.
Melee combat is useful in certain situations, but you can't rely on it exclusively. At any one time I'll probably have one or two colonists maximum with melee weapons, but if the circumstances suggest changing things, then I have other weapons in shelves.
The thing I tend to notice about non-sapper raids is that when there are no turrets in the open, but there's a perimeter wall blocking their way, they tend to split up and attack the doors and walls. You can send melee-equipped colonists off to ambush the ones which are on their own and busy punching walls or doors.
Remember, raiders will give up if they lose too many people, so for each of them that you kill or down, the sooner the raid ends.
Can't say the same for mechanoids, but they have their own weaknesses - they do not benefit from cover so you can get a few shooters at a time to take down an individual Scyther, and you can fall back out of the range of a Centipede before it mows your colonists down.
Colonists are going to get injured whether they're fighting melee or ranged. If they lose limbs, you can replace those with bionic body parts. And that just comes down to making a lot of money.
Quote from: MarvinKosh on July 13, 2017, 03:02:12 PMColonists are going to get injured whether they're fighting melee or ranged. If they lose limbs, you can replace those with bionic body parts. And that just comes down to making a lot of money.
Not so much, currently. Bionics have become MUCH rarer. The bottleneck is now much more likely to be simple unavailability.
Quote from: Bozobub on July 13, 2017, 03:31:58 PM
Quote from: MarvinKosh on July 13, 2017, 03:02:12 PMColonists are going to get injured whether they're fighting melee or ranged. If they lose limbs, you can replace those with bionic body parts. And that just comes down to making a lot of money.
Not so much, currently. Bionics have become MUCH rarer. The bottleneck is now much more likely to be simple unavailability.
Even prosthetics are no gimme. The 8% efficiency hit on them sucks, but on the plus side prosthetics don't have the same fingers being targeted issue so you're capped at "only" 16% efficiency loss from arms/legs using them.
There are ways to fight ranged w/o taking damage, and in many early game melee situations it is possible to melee raiders who can only fight back with fists, 3v1 or 4v1, such that you're not going to get anything more than bruises. Given how the game's damage is tuned right now and the availability for counterplay to it, damage avoidance is absolutely crucial, though bruising is okay since it doesn't get infected.
I personally like melee. With the right gear and weapons they're very lethal. My main issue is armor and shield belts. Since they degrade while equipped regardless of being in combat or not it's expensive to have them equipped the whole time. It's tedious and sometimes not possible to gear up when that raid arrives if they aren't already equipped. Maybe not have the tattered apparel debuff when it comes to armor may help out some as well.
Melees involve micro managing in combat if you want to be effective and I like it that way. You start thinking of strategies such as breaking the raid apart so you can pick them off. They aren't effective in some areas, manhunter packs, mechanoids etc and that's when I equip those pawns with stuff like grenades and shotguns, or just throw them on mortars if you want to go that route.
Quote from: Bozobub on July 13, 2017, 03:31:58 PM
Not so much, currently. Bionics have become MUCH rarer. The bottleneck is now much more likely to be simple unavailability.
I sent a caravan out and got two bionic legs and a simple prosthetic arm. Granted, I had to visit two outlander settlements, not just one, but it's certainly possible to luck into getting them.
And? That's still MUCH rarer than previously. People with wooden PCs also are likely to be less enthused by solutions involving caravans ^^' .
Quote from: Jibbles on July 13, 2017, 06:25:08 PM
I personally like melee. With the right gear and weapons they're very lethal. My main issue is armor and shield belts. Since they degrade while equipped regardless of being in combat or not it's expensive to have them equipped the whole time. It's tedious and sometimes not possible to gear up when that raid arrives if they aren't already equipped. Maybe not have the tattered apparel debuff when it comes to armor may help out some as well.
Melees involve micro managing in combat if you want to be effective and I like it that way. You start thinking of strategies such as breaking the raid apart so you can pick them off. They aren't effective in some areas, manhunter packs, mechanoids etc and that's when I equip those pawns with stuff like grenades and shotguns, or just throw them on mortars if you want to go that route.
This is all well and good, but I believe the problem people have with melee isn't that it's ineffective, it's that it's more work for less effectiveness compared to ranged. There are higher gear requirements, more strategic thought involved, and a whole, whole lot more micro demanded if you want to go heavy into melee, and you wind up with something that just doesn't work as well in as many situations as if you'd put those same resources, planning, and effort into a gun line or killbox.
Remember, a good melee fighter doesn't just need a good melee weapon, he also needs good armor and a shield belt. Properly handled, a gun line only needs a good weapon - They can get by with cheap or even no armor because there are a lot of ways to reduce the odds of them getting hit (and they can't use shield belts anyway). Then once you get into a fight you need to use tactics and planning in order to get the raid to split up so your melee guys have a chance, while a gun line can often just directly engage them or wait for the raid to come to them. Then after that you need to micro the melee fighters, while the ranged guys will shoot on their own and don't need a whole lot of supervision. By the time it's over, your melee guys will come out on top but will inevitably get hurt (no armor stops 100% of an attack) and have wounds that need tending, which is extra downtime. Your gun line on the other hand, if you've built the defenses right, probably has minimal damage and you just need to repair a few things.
And this is just for average raids. Once you get a big, wealthy colony and start seeing raids with over a hundred enemies (as I have in modded games) then you can forget about melee altogether. Nothing short of divine intervention will save them then.
You've made some good points and I agree with you on most of it. What makes a good melee fighter does indeed require proper gear, which is why I listed managing armor as the issue for me as it can be annoying. I don't know what the outcome would be if they were able to jump out a melee battle with ease. They're kind of locked in once it happens. But having to micro them is just part of the fun. It's strategy and a lot of people just don't how to use them. Most players on youtube put more thought into making bills than fighting a raid. They don't really make a strategy beyond the killbox which seems strange to me.
That's the beauty in the combat so far. If you don't want to micro then make a killbox. If you do then cut back on security builds. But if you just beef up the melee fighters then it goes both ways for AI and the player. So you might have to micro the shooters just as much if it's not implemented right.
I guess an important aspect to consider is what Tynan thinks an average colony size should be and how much strategy should be involved in raids. The average player probably won't be dealing with raids that have 100+ enemies ha. I think more technology should be thrown in at that point since your colony is most likely advanced and wealthy. Maybe have war machines and other traps for dealing with bigger raids. That may be a bad suggestion but I feel like it's a lack of something else combatting bigger raids. But you're right. There is a point where it gets too involved as the raids stack up and you got bunch of melee fighters on your hand.
Some major changes I noticed in my current play-through is that the incendiary launchers are accurate now which is pretty darn effective. Mortars can actually target a large group without using 30 shells ☺ I was able to sneak shots with assault rifles to shoot down mechs without them firing at me since they can't lock their target on the pawn in time. The only gun I was able to do that with in A16 was the pistol. So the ease of using guns in most situations may be an issue as well.
Quote from: Jibbles on July 13, 2017, 06:25:08 PM
I personally like melee. With the right gear and weapons they're very lethal. My main issue is armor and shield belts. Since they degrade while equipped regardless of being in combat or not it's expensive to have them equipped the whole time. It's tedious and sometimes not possible to gear up when that raid arrives if they aren't already equipped. Maybe not have the tattered apparel debuff when it comes to armor may help out some as well.
Melees involve micro managing in combat if you want to be effective and I like it that way. You start thinking of strategies such as breaking the raid apart so you can pick them off. They aren't effective in some areas, manhunter packs, mechanoids etc and that's when I equip those pawns with stuff like grenades and shotguns, or just throw them on mortars if you want to go that route.
If you're using grenades, shotguns, and mortars you can use them in lieu of melee and do just as well.
That's the problem with melee. It's a fun little minigame but offers no coverage that you don't already get simply by staying alive against things that absolutely destroy melee, like mechanoids and higher difficulty level sieges.
Melee will be always be useless until new combat melee AI gets patched in.(or have some option to switch combat AI from micro-intensive to more automatic, like the ones we already have for melee-auto attack AI when not recruited) Currently melee is only viable option through early game with small enemy numbers.
I am not saying new melee AI will fix everything, but it will give opportunity for modders to actually balance the damned thing for the lategame.
Quote from: Reinhark on July 14, 2017, 08:34:24 AM
Melee will be always be useless until new combat melee AI gets patched in.(or have some option to switch combat AI from micro-intensive to more automatic, like the ones we already have for melee-auto attack AI when not recruited) Currently melee is only viable option through early game with small enemy numbers.
I am not saying new melee AI will fix everything, but it will give opportunity for modders to actually balance the damned thing for the lategame.
I don't agree that Melee is useless late game. As a stand alone relying on melee is not the way to go but it sure does compliment a firing line when things get heavy. Being able to step melee pawns with good armour and weapons up to assist when raiders/man hunters have reached your firing line can make the difference.
My current caravan crew consists of 8 pawns, 5 ranged (2 sniper rifle, 1 assault rifle, 2 pulse rifles) and 3 Melee. As you don't get the chance to prep your defences when out caravanning (sometimes you do but not often) the Melee team can help draw fire and deal with animal rushes. Yes you have to micro manage it for best effect but I wouldn't leave home without them.