After thinking about how a mod had some stupid research requirement for its items,
I realized how powerful and central machining is.
After slogging through bows and arrows and swords, having to rely on traders and pirate drops for halfway decent weapons,
the best defense being the turret and a killbox .. finally you get to produce your own guns and armor.
All the guns but two. And the ability to break down mechanoids.
Which makes the decision which guns to build only a matter of how much ressources I have, Instead of what can I do
and therefore my point stands that machining makes most firearms useless.
---- Interruption ----
after just checking the research tab again I realized that microelectronics is no required for machining as I thought it was ..
this makes part of my argument moot, since you can reach machining earlier than I thought
and right now I can't tell if it's a Alpha-Version thing or mod related .. my research tab is really cluttered.
but I think the point is still valid
---- End of Interruption ----
My proposal I want to discuss here is as follows.
I would prefer if the abilities of the Machining Table were a bit more spread out.
Making Pistols or Revolvers, Shotguns and Bolt-Action Rifles at the Electric Smithy ( to have a bit of difference to Tribals )
And Modern Weapons finally at the Machining Table.
Spacer Tech takes extra research anyhow.
Disassembling Weapons for Parts should also go to the Machining Table,
while disassembling Mechanoids should go to the Electric Smelter.
Before I wrote myself in another emberassing situation I checked facts :
The crematorium and the electric smelter should change places in the research list.
A Crematorium today is gas powered and reaches only about 850 °C.
While Iron has a melting point of 1150 °C and Steel of 1200 °C and above. ( making steel from iron actually creates heat up to 1600 °C and needs cooling by mixing scrap steel into it )
For future Tribal Stuff .. starting with the simple fireplace pottery and ceramics use the same temperature ranges as above ..
( and as I just relearned the technique is about 30.000 Years Old .. )
Finally Electric Smelting can create 3500 °C .. which in my oppinion would be about right the mechanoid material plasteel, which is made to endure space and re-entering a planetary atmosphere.
So Tribals get a cheaper smelter to use all the scrap metal that is lying around, while the Electric Smelter should actually require Machining as basic research, because a sustained arc of light needs a bit of know how.
I hope no one is to confused by my rambling .. whats your oppinion on this ?
IMO, it makes sense but doesn't really add much, in the end, to gameplay. I wouldn't be offended at all by your change, but it really wouldn't change how I play the game in any real way, unless the weapons were also completely rejiggered ???.
well lets assume there will be a bit more content in the next few alphas ..
and lets assume it will take longer to reach machining ..
or lets assume a tribal start ..
I think those are all good reasons to not put all egg grenades in one basket.
It takes so short of a time to research, and so long to create quantities of weapons and so many resources it's better to just wait until you can make sniper rifles basically.
SpaceDorf,
basicly what you describe is allready part of harcore-sk modpack, did you ever play this ?
Vanilia gameplay is for beginning, all is pretty simple, even with the most mods it don't change anything at the crafting process. Mosttimes they just add some new metal/ore types.
Rimsenal is a good way in that direction, but even there you just made the most weapons out of the ore,comp. and some extra drops.
But about the topic, i don't think it made it useless. You still need a very good crafter for good quality weapons. And you will need them at a higher difficult storyteller.
@canute : No I never played Hardcore-SK, I take another look at it, but I think there were some things about it, that I did not like .. although my current modlist is north of 200 mods ..
so it is nice that you mention Rimsenal, which was the mod that had me thinking :o
Mainly the number of power armors and the lack of other options than guns, but one led to another.
By the time I get around to craft my own weapons I usually have a lvl. 15 crafter or two .. that is not the problem.
What I meant was that some weapons just become a non-option to craft, because they are allready outdated by then.
Why should I craft a Bolt-Action Rifle when I can craft a Sniper Rifle.
Why should I craft a PDW or Pistol when I can craft an Assault Rifle ..
Why Assault Rifles at all, when I am through with Sniper Rifles I have researched charged shot ..
Maybe I should rename the topic from "useless" to "obsolete" ...
QuoteWhat I meant was that some weapons just become a non-option to craft, because they are allready outdated by then.
Why should I craft a Bolt-Action Rifle when I can craft a Sniper Rifle.
Why should I craft a PDW or Pistol when I can craft an Assault Rifle ..
Why Assault Rifles at all, when I am through with Sniper Rifles I have researched charged shot ..
Maybe I should rename the topic from "useless" to "obsolete" ...
Hehe, i guess you arn't a big fan of weapons mods they add alot of nearly the same kind of weapons just with a little bit different stats.
Me either, very confusing when you could craft 10 kind of pistols which nearly are the same, just because people like to see their favoured colt/magnum/beretta/glock in the game.
2-4 kind of pistoles are enough, pistol, adv. pistol, pistol with fire effect.
I like it overall more simple then to have too much variants.
At the other hand, people would say:
bolt vs sniper, bolt got more DPS, sniper the better range.
same for SMG vs Assault, at close range the SMG got the better DPS, Assault is the best univeral weapon.
Personaly i would say, charge rifle for overall, sniper for mechanoid sniping.
And i never found a good use of LMG or miniguns, because of the long warmup, serveral targets are allread dead/down before they could shoot, you need to manual target something behind.
Even at Rimsenal you never would use all kind of weapons, but people would like to have choises and their personal choised weapons. Other people just want the best DPS weapon.
My personal suggestion, only play with 1-2 kind of weapon addon mod at once ! :-) And don't add medivial weapons when you play spacer races (Cat's vs. Tribals :-) ).
And the big point why some people need to craft weapons at the mashining table, they got much more people then raiders bring good weapons to the raids. Some people got 50+ pawns at their colonys.
Quote from: Canute on July 25, 2017, 06:36:29 AM
QuoteWhat I meant was that some weapons just become a non-option to craft, because they are allready outdated by then.
Why should I craft a Bolt-Action Rifle when I can craft a Sniper Rifle.
Why should I craft a PDW or Pistol when I can craft an Assault Rifle ..
Why Assault Rifles at all, when I am through with Sniper Rifles I have researched charged shot ..
Maybe I should rename the topic from "useless" to "obsolete" ...
Hehe, i guess you arn't a big fan of weapons mods they add alot of nearly the same kind of weapons just with a little bit different stats.
Me either, very confusing when you could craft 10 kind of pistols which nearly are the same, just because people like to see their favoured colt/magnum/beretta/glock in the game.
2-4 kind of pistoles are enough, pistol, adv. pistol, pistol with fire effect.
I like it overall more simple then to have too much variants.
At the other hand, people would say:
bolt vs sniper, bolt got more DPS, sniper the better range.
same for SMG vs Assault, at close range the SMG got the better DPS, Assault is the best univeral weapon.
Personaly i would say, charge rifle for overall, sniper for mechanoid sniping.
And i never found a good use of LMG or miniguns, because of the long warmup, serveral targets are allread dead/down before they could shoot, you need to manual target something behind.
Even at Rimsenal you never would use all kind of weapons, but people would like to have choises and their personal choised weapons. Other people just want the best DPS weapon.
My personal suggestion, only play with 1-2 kind of weapon addon mod at once !
Some people got 50+ pawns at their colonys.
You guessed right at the weapons, I have Rimsenal as Weapon Mod + Skullys Laser and Gauss ..and the Tribal Pack, some vanilla scented weapons I don't remember
And More Vanilla Turrets. I think thats it ..
Myself I use the GD Weapons from Rimsenal because I roleplay the 51st Greydale Scout Company ( 2000 years late and the wrong planet, but goddamn we have orders ! )
FashionRimsta for some more clothes .. everything else is either Q.o.L, Medicine, Tech or Monsters .. Toolbelts, Shoes, Gloves, and Simple Side Arms.. so my Elite is actually armed to the teeth. ( Melee, Grenades, Rifle and Handgun )
Even Apparello adds to much stuff for my taste .. though I love the Style
And I looked at Hardcore-SK again, it has all the features I don't like.
Fog of War, Darkness, to fucking many weapons and factions and fifty superfluous ressources.
And I just ordered about 10 new knives, rifles and sets of clothes because a downed ship decided to join in whole .. ( damn myself, that I can't refuse children or family members .. )
It would be nice if we had the ability to manufacture incendiary launchers, rockets, and personal shields, rather than relying on attackers to drop them or traders to bring them by.
and grenades .. sometimes I would give a bunch of arms for a emp grenade.
especially since rocket launchers are one-shot items. I could think of no better ressource grave.
If we assume the people who crash landed are space-tech; it seems likely they can build a 3-d printing machine, you can pretty much build anything that you've got the materials to do, if you've got that kind of knowledge.
If you are talking about a tribal start and then 'hard-lining' for machining research? Yeah, that's a stretch - but you've also got to remember it pretty much jumps from tribal to industrial ages with research. A good section of the game isn't fleshed out yet.
Thats one of the reasons why I started this discussion :)
Quote from: SpaceDorf on July 25, 2017, 07:58:07 AM
especially since rocket launchers are one-shot items.
Which alone is a thing that I do not like. A nice Idea would be if Shells could also be used to reload rocket launchers.
Maybe at a Workshop .. 2 Steps - Built Rocket Launcher Barrel, Load Rocketlauncher with Shells.
So once fired Launchers drop a empty Launcher again.
Quote from: makkenhoff on July 25, 2017, 06:39:34 PM
If we assume the people who crash landed are space-tech; it seems likely they can build a 3-d printing machine, you can pretty much build anything that you've got the materials to do, if you've got that kind of knowledge.
If you are talking about a tribal start and then 'hard-lining' for machining research? Yeah, that's a stretch - but you've also got to remember it pretty much jumps from tribal to industrial ages with research. A good section of the game isn't fleshed out yet.
Normal scenario is industrial, sole survivor is glitterworld (I think? Not sure what that actually means). No official scenarios start you off with knowledge of spacer tech.
In my opinion, your view of obsoletion is exaggerated (resources DO need to be taken into account, it's a valid argument);
However, I agree that vanilla weapons lack advancement between each other.
While I do get what you're saying, using your solution with only the current vanilla guns would make advancing through them feel too cumbersome(?).
QuoteI would prefer if the abilities of the Machining Table were a bit more spread out.
Making Pistols or Revolvers, Shotguns and Bolt-Action Rifles at the Electric Smithy ( to have a bit of difference to Tribals )
Even then, there still are guns that are obsolete- you'd either make a bow or a bolt-action rifle given the choices.
I mean, why use a pistol/revolver when bows are more efficient?
I just think there should be more choices between tribal and modern, and past the modern tech (not just the Charged Rifle). I'm not demanding it though, I find the vanilla more balanced than anything I could think of without being engaged into more serious planning.
I've always wanted guns to be broken down into parts so you can manufacture each part then combine them together.
It would make weapon making a decent trade option and add diversity.
Quote from: PotatoeTater on July 28, 2017, 12:52:26 PM
I've always wanted guns to be broken down into parts so you can manufacture each part then combine them together.
It would make weapon making a decent trade option and add diversity.
Good idea on paper, but with the way things stack in this game, I can see myself needing an entire warehouse just to store weapon parts... more clutter is the last thing this game needs, unless some major changes are made to how storage works.
Vanilla guns have no nuance. They're all magical ray-shooters with varying degrees of damage output and unlimited ammo. There's a whole history to firearm production that I hope Tynan will seriously consider modelling into vanilla, though mods seem more likely. Modern firearms are AMAZING inventions, but no one pulled a Taurus Judge out of the ground. They are the result of making and improving lots and lots of things that go boom.
I would like to see Machining pushed far down the tech tree. I would make it about 3x as hard to reach or so, I'm not sure. The progression from sword-and-spear tech to automatic breech-loading weaponry tech is broken. A new intermediary stage of firearm tech takes it's place. This tech allows the crafting of primitive hand-cannons and flintlock weapons at a smithy. Both are single-shot weapons with a LONG reload time. Ideally, they don't work outside in the rain (this may be too punishing for the new player, but sure makes for a good story). These are the guns most raiders will carry in your first year. It's not until you have some money that you start seeing modern firearms, besides the one you start with. Also bump the price of guns, especially to buy them.
I think that the guns have no nuances is untrue.
And forcing the player through the whole history of firearms is also the wrong way,
especially if you look at it from the min-maxing of individuals perspective like most players do.
Because it took quite a few steps until individual firearms were as good as their low tech counterpart.
The main difference in effectiveness until today is the length of training needed to become decently adept with the weapon.
Your approach would make sense for the tribal/civilisation/Age_of_Empires kind of campaign, which is, honestly, just a new idea which got slapped on ..
The base of the game is still industrial/space area people who land on a crappy mad-max world. They know stuff and can cobble together things which tribals lack the education for.
Because Education stands for : Thousands of years of experience and research broken down into useful information and sorted so you don't have to find out for yourself. Streamlined to the techlevel that surrounds you, mentioning but skipping most of the actual knowledge that was needed to reach this point.
I don't want to be historically acurate.
Rimworld is a Space Western, no History Simulation. Research, at least from the industrial techlevel point of view, is not finding out how the world works, but finding out how to get a known concept to work.
What I wish for is, that the given choice of modern weapons and the ability to reproduce them is more spread out over the research path instead of having that Chosen One "I Know Kung-Fu" - Research.
Because that is one of the things that leads to the feeling that Vanilla Guns have no nuance.
With one strike you can built everything .. and of course you built only the best while ignoring the rest.
Quote from: sadpickle on July 28, 2017, 03:41:29 PMA new intermediary stage of firearm tech takes it's place. This tech allows the crafting of primitive hand-cannons and flintlock weapons at a smithy.
Good idea
QuoteBoth are single-shot weapons with a LONG reload time. Ideally, they don't work outside in the rain
I'll come back to that*
QuoteThese are the guns most raiders will carry in your first year[...]Also bump the price of guns, especially to buy them.
Already deliberately nerfed in the latest alphas, to prevent loadsamoney being made from 'farming' raids for weps
*/Trained/ troops in late c18/early c19 (ie Napoleonic wars & shortly after) could load & fire remarkably quickly** (cf Bernard Cornwall's well-researched Sharpe's books/films for fictional examples; factual examples you can easily google for). The innovation of greased cartridges (hence 'cartridge paper') made firearms less vulnerable (but not immune) to rain/damp conditions as well as decreasing reload time; rifled barrels, once understood, led to a drastic leap in accuracy (& therefore range) too.. but even trained flintlock musketeers could be very effective if deployed properly. Most line infantry 'musketeers' weren't trained at all: they were usually drafted by whatever means from farms etc. Lack of training was mostly due to ineffective officers: a political problem/mindset of the day that lasted until well after the disastrous WW1 trench charges :(
**A trained longbowman (great bow IG?) could fire at least 5x faster for almost the same dmg per shot (& better accuracy, plus slightly better range.. plus indirect fire (not implemented)), but it takes 10-20 years to train a longbowman to that lvl of skill, vs 1-2 years for a musketman.. which would you choose?
Quote from: SpaceDorf on July 28, 2017, 06:10:03 PM
What I wish for is, that the given choice of modern weapons and the ability to reproduce them is more spread out over the research path instead of having that Chosen One "I Know Kung-Fu" - Research.
When you say this, do you mean you want every gun to require research before being able to build them? Or is there more to it than that? Maybe I can make a mod to test it out if there's not already one available.
No .. but more spread out like I said in my first post.
At the moment it's
From Start : Crafting Short Bows, Clubs, Pilas,Shivs
Smithing : Swords, Knifes, Long Bows ..
Electricity : Microelectronics -> Turrets; Multi-Analizer -> Charged Shot, Multi-Barreled Weapons
: Machining : All the guns, except two. -> Mortars
What I suggested was to put Pistols, Shotguns and Bolt-Action Rifles one step before Machining.
When you get the Electric Smithy.
Maybe some extra research for the longbow so it is not tied to smithing ..
No new Tier of Gunpowder Weapons or Historically Acurate Weapons, just a bit more stretched.
I am a bit undecided if Sniper Rifles should use Micro-Electronics as well to represent modern optics.
Quote from: cultist on July 28, 2017, 01:14:34 PM
Quote from: PotatoeTater on July 28, 2017, 12:52:26 PM
I've always wanted guns to be broken down into parts so you can manufacture each part then combine them together.
It would make weapon making a decent trade option and add diversity.
Good idea on paper, but with the way things stack in this game, I can see myself needing an entire warehouse just to store weapon parts... more clutter is the last thing this game needs, unless some major changes are made to how storage works.
While I agree with your principle, if weapons dropped "Weapon Parts" that were universal, like components, that would work with only one space.
We already have components just having dissassembled firearms give components would make sense. Even dropping only steel makes sense since steel can be crafted into parts.
Just think about how much effort it takes to reforge screws to fit?
Yeah, return the materials the weapon was made of based on the recipe ..
Steel, Plasteel, Components .. simple deconstruction.
To actually make a difference use some of the fancier materials in construction.
It would make sense for charge rifles and power armor to use some silver, gold and uranium.
There's actually a mod that splits weapon tech into several tiers: Unfortunately it seems to only be available through Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=936987539&searchtext=Weapon+Tech
Looks Interesting, thank you .. grenade crafting me likey.