A max skill craftsman operating at 50% manipulation due to a hand injury or sickness will fail to build a wall 15% of the time.
This seems a bit over the top.
Why should a max skilled craftsman build walls anyway, why not your max skilled constructor ?
But did you ever tryed to do things single handed ? Try to wash your dishes singlehanded and report us how many you broke, 15% sounds fair.
Then you should look for a arm/hand replacement.
If anything penalties are not harsh enough, 50% manipulation is terrible.
I reiterate your sentence
Your One Handed Construction worker, is so awesome he is still able to build a complete wall 85% of the times. Can you imagine doing this ? Building a wall with one of your hands in a cast ? ( which is the least that happens in Rimworld .. )
And there is a reason that sick or injured people don't go to work !
Don't get me wrong, I did not do this to shut you down, but change the perspective a little bit.
What I find to harsh is the 50% ressource cost for failure.
I could not care less about losing two bricks to a failed wall ..
but loosing 500 steel, 250 plasteel and 10 components to a failed shippart or similiar that really sucks.
Here I think a diminished returns function would be better, that reduces the ressource loss the more ressources are used.
Is it really 50% loss though SpaceDorf?
I don't have exact numbers but I think I remember it only being like 20-30% of the resources being wasted.
In regards to the fail chance I agree. 15% is not that much if you are severely dismembered. Remember that a lowered manipulation only affects work speed and failure chance. A skilled craftsman could still create a legendary table but might fail 15% of the time... Sounds okay to me. If anything it might actually be low.
I thought resource loss from fail is more like 33%.
Try it out,
when you cancel a half build construction/crafting you just loose 33%.
Failure rate is different from speed. 15% failure rate is pretty inane for a master class builder, 1 armed or otherwise. It's even more ridiculous when you've a pawn missing a finger that is somehow failing a lot of builds despite being an elite builder. That's complete nonsense from a plausibility perspective (I've done higher success rate stuff construction type jobs with more limitation than being down a finger, back when I was a teenager). It's also borked from a balance perspective since losing < 10 hp body parts has effectively no counterplay whatsoever.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on October 12, 2017, 11:59:53 AM
Failure rate is different from speed. 15% failure rate is pretty inane for a master class builder, 1 armed or otherwise. It's even more ridiculous when you've a pawn missing a finger that is somehow failing a lot of builds despite being an elite builder. That's complete nonsense from a plausibility perspective (I've done higher success rate stuff construction type jobs with more limitation than being down a finger, back when I was a teenager). It's also borked from a balance perspective since losing < 10 hp body parts has effectively no counterplay whatsoever.
This is what I'm getting at. If you are the world's greatest expert on construction and find yourself moderately sick or with a broken arm, you're going to work a little slower rather than catastrophically fail every 8th thing.
But in this game the opposite happens -- even at 50% manipulation your skill 20 constructor builds much faster than a healthy "professional" person.
If you are the world greatest expert, you haved worked years with both arms on this.
Your body/brain got these movements etched on the memory.
Now you just got 1 arm less, but your still remember the old mechanics, and this will cause the errors mosttimes.
Sure you could work like a lvl 1, think about every step, but then you better assign someone else for that job.
The real problem here is the rarity of bionics. I once spent whole ingame year looking for bionic hand for my one-handed constructor. I visited bunch of settlements and called in bunch of traders. All They ever had were simple prosthetics, which are not enough to get you to 100% success chance. :-[
I always thought that the manipulation penalty should be scaled differently. My favorite tattoo artist cut his index finger off in wood shop in high school. Now he owns his own parlor and competes nationally. Yet my highly skilled constructor will fail building a wall several times because a scar on his neck is restricting his breathing.
Quote from: Canute on October 14, 2017, 03:26:55 AM
If you are the world greatest expert, you haved worked years with both arms on this.
Your body/brain got these movements etched on the memory.
Now you just got 1 arm less, but your still remember the old mechanics, and this will cause the errors mosttimes.
Sure you could work like a lvl 1, think about every step, but then you better assign someone else for that job.
So, howzabout the expert
who learned while being "disabled", hmm?
I am missing 2/3 of my right ring finger and the little finger is damaged (it's mostly useless). Guess what? I do just about all tasks as fast as before my injury, after healing and years of experience with the effects, and I have nearly full strength and dexterity in that hand; I even juggle! I've also watched a man with a prosthetic leg breakdancing; very well, at that.
The penalties are FAR too harsh for minor injuries, *unless* you have them scale down to some minimum over time. And yes, major injuries
should slow you down, sure, but the penalties to success are rather silly. Let me put it this way: anyone who thinks minor injuries are a serious impediment to almost any craft has never met a smith or glassblower, that simple.
Quote from: Bozobub on October 14, 2017, 06:57:06 PM
...
So, howzabout the expert who learned while being "disabled", hmm?
I am missing 2/3 of my right ring finger and the little finger is damaged (it's mostly useless). Guess what? I do just about all tasks as fast as before my injury, after healing and years of experience with the effects, and I have nearly full strength and dexterity in that hand; I even juggle! I've also watched a man with a prosthetic leg breakdancing; very well, at that.
The penalties are FAR too harsh for minor injuries, *unless* you have them scale down to some minimum over time. And yes, major injuries should slow you down, sure, but the penalties to success are rather silly. Let me put it this way: anyone who thinks minor injuries are a serious impediment to almost any craft has never met a smith or glassblower, that simple.
^ This.
Quote from: Bozobub on October 14, 2017, 06:57:06 PM
..., *unless* you have them scale down to some minimum over time. ...
^ I would
especially like to see this in the game.
Quote from: YokoZar on October 13, 2017, 08:43:11 PM
This is what I'm getting at. If you are the world's greatest expert on construction and find yourself moderately sick or with a broken arm, you're going to work a little slower rather than catastrophically fail every 8th thing.
But in this game the opposite happens -- even at 50% manipulation your skill 20 constructor builds much faster than a healthy "professional" person.
Haha true construction rate (crop growth and research too) are all tuned way faster than is humanly possible. That scratches any realism argument for 1-armed construction though, and from a gameplay perspective the fail rate is annoying. I'd rather it cause slower build speed and skip the "wasting materials" outcome.
QuoteIf you are the world greatest expert, you haved worked years with both arms on this.
Your body/brain got these movements etched on the memory.
Now you just got 1 arm less, but your still remember the old mechanics, and this will cause the errors mosttimes.
That's not how reality works. With one arm there would be a large number of tasks you straight up couldn't do in construction, and a bunch more that would need extra tools or otherwise unnecessary set-up time. You'd see someone much more likely to fail catastrophically/waste resources if working while exhausted or under the influence of other impairments (drugs/withdrawal, severe illness).
There's also not a good reason that's how it should work in the game.
An acclimation mechanic would be nice too, but aside that I'd still rather see a slowed-down work rate over increased fail rate.
Yeah, I fully agree. It makes sense to me both in terms of the simulation AND gameplay (not even remotely the same thing ;)). It would also, imo, be a pretty damn big QoL improvement; this very issue causes me MUCH stress in RimWorld! In fact, it's the most common limiter of my play: me getting pissed about someone perma-gimped over losing a finger, when I have experience with exactly that, often enough, but also the constant, erosive "gimpening" of my pawns in general. Grrrrr... >:(
This is one of the few rather fundamental changes I currently support in the "vanilla" game, rather than as a mod. It simply makes that much more sense to me than the current model.
So whats your suggestion here ?
What I read out of the Dialog so far :
1.) Scars and limbloss effects should reduce over time.
meaning pain should go away and manipulation can be restored. ( to a point )
2.) the limbloss should come with some experience loss to affected skills ( relearn to handle the new body )
3.) I just made this one up, but installing Cybernetic Limbs into a healthy pawn should have similiar effects. ( some loss of xp, some time until full usability is reached )
4.) Construction success chance penalties aren't that bad, but ressource loss is ..
One idea I have to make construction fail less annoying, could be to separate skill and perception.
theres a basic chance to fail and loose material based on construction skill as there is already(If you have no idea what youre doing, you cut your wood logs wrong/break things etc..).
second would be based on perception/maniplation, to to fail building, but only loosing time.
I second the notion that injuries should result in tasks taking longer, but not failing more often. Failure should be tied to skill.
If I tried to make a bookcase IRL, I would fail (or it would be really shitty and lopsided). Not because of my health (which is perfect) but because I don't know the first thing about carpentry. If I was a brilliant carpenter but down to 1 arm, I am fairly certain I could make a perfect bookcase. It would just take me longer than a person with 2 arms.
Quote from: sadpickle on October 17, 2017, 05:13:32 AM
I second the notion that injuries should result in tasks taking longer, but not failing more often. Failure should be tied to skill.
If I tried to make a bookcase IRL, I would fail (or it would be really shitty and lopsided). Not because of my health (which is perfect) but because I don't know the first thing about carpentry. If I was a brilliant carpenter but down to 1 arm, I am fairly certain I could make a perfect bookcase. It would just take me longer than a person with 2 arms.
^This!!
Exactly. Furthermore, as I mentioned above, some crafts just seem to end up whittling away at their practitioners, over time. Both blacksmithing and glassblowing (especially) are notorious for wounding artisans, often quite severely.
As a perfect example, telling me Dale Chihuly (relatively famous glass artist) is "less capable" because he lost an *eye* (although not to glassblowing, itself) is quite simply obvious hogwash. Yes, he eventually accumulated enough injuries, that he simply couldn't do the actual glassblowing himself, but that never affected his success rate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Chihuly
http://www.chihuly.com/
I can supply no end of examples; for many other dangerous crafts, as well.
Be a one armed construction master, getting ready to start, get hammer, prepare to nail in the nail, can't hold the nail since I have one hand.
Quote from: Evillee on October 17, 2017, 09:12:23 PM
Be a one armed construction master, getting ready to start, get hammer, prepare to nail in the nail, can't hold the nail since I have one hand.
For something like that, the simplest method is to make a starter "hole", basically a small divot the nail will rest in. This is how you hammer small nails that are too tiny to hold.
It's a good thing it's annoying, because if not you as a player would not bother. What's the value of implants or keeping your pawns healthy if it really doesen't matter that much?
Quote from: Andy_Dandy on October 18, 2017, 04:24:22 AM
It's a good thing it's annoying, because if not you as a player would not bother. What's the value of implants or keeping your pawns healthy if it really doesen't matter that much?
We all WANT to keep our pawns healthy; the fact is implants are super-rare in vanilla and it's really easy to get gibbed in a fight. No one is arguing that there shouldn't be some sort of malus for injuries. What's really annoying is losing a finger and suffering a 10% reduction. Even if it was a thumb, that seems severe. It's not a simple matter of zero fingers = zero manipulation. People adapt.
I disagree it's too harsh. In my opinion it's at a reasonable level, but then again I really love this game for not holding your hand.
Quote from: Andy_Dandy on October 18, 2017, 04:24:22 AM
It's a good thing it's annoying, because if not you as a player would not bother. What's the value of implants or keeping your pawns healthy if it really doesen't matter that much?
1.
If the only purpose of implants was to fix the disadvantages of losing limbs then they wouldn't give bonuses that are beyond human capabilities.
Because they DO give super human capabilities( and can be applied to even healthy colonists) it can be assumed the design intent is to give the superhuman capabilities, not keeping your pawns healthy.
2.
You are very much underestimating the value of TIME.
To say nothing of how much of an impact scars and missing limbs currently have on social interactions.
Quote from: Andy_Dandy on October 18, 2017, 04:24:22 AM
It's a good thing it's annoying, because if not you as a player would not bother. What's the value of implants or keeping your pawns healthy if it really doesen't matter that much?
You seem to be confusing annoyance and difficulty. One does not imply the other.
If it constantly annoys you, it crosses the line from "game" to "unpaid job".
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on October 18, 2017, 12:01:48 PM
Quote from: Andy_Dandy on October 18, 2017, 04:24:22 AM
It's a good thing it's annoying, because if not you as a player would not bother. What's the value of implants or keeping your pawns healthy if it really doesen't matter that much?
You seem to be confusing annoyance and difficulty. One does not imply the other.
No, the annoyance makes you want to prevent it from happening, and makes you care for it not to happen. It also makes you concider not using your master constructer if he is permanently or for the time being has worse then 50% manipulation. I don't want another solution that makes me care less. Removing the wasting of ressources would just be punishing in time consumption, making me not care too much.
To be clear, I don't find the mechanic annoying. The annoyance comes if you choose to ignore the consequences of the mechanic or have to do so (no other constructors). Annoyance in the meaning of not playing optimally, not annoyance like in "I hate this mechanic". But it's all jolly good for gameplay in every way. Nothing micro intensive what so ever about this one, just a pure pluss for the game, and an example of the great detail in mechanics this game has.
Quote from: Andy_Dandy on October 19, 2017, 08:46:09 AM
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on October 18, 2017, 12:01:48 PM
Quote from: Andy_Dandy on October 18, 2017, 04:24:22 AM
It's a good thing it's annoying, because if not you as a player would not bother. What's the value of implants or keeping your pawns healthy if it really doesen't matter that much?
You seem to be confusing annoyance and difficulty. One does not imply the other.
No, the annoyance makes you want to prevent it from happening, and makes you care for it not to happen. It also makes you concider not using your master constructer if he is permanently or for the time being has worse then 50% manipulation. I don't want another solution that makes me care less. Removing the wasting of ressources would just be punishing in time consumption, making me not care too much.
To be clear, I don't find the mechanic annoying. The annoyance comes if you choose to ignore the consequences of the mechanic or have to do so (no other constructors). Annoyance in the meaning of not playing optimally, not annoyance like in "I hate this mechanic". But it's all jolly good for gameplay in every way. Nothing micro intensive what so ever about this one, just a pure pluss for the game, and an example of the great detail in mechanics this game has.
If you don't care about time loss in Rimworld, you don't care about how effectively you're playing Rimworld.
Quote from: Andy_Dandy on October 19, 2017, 08:46:09 AM
... But it's all jolly good for gameplay in every way. Nothing micro intensive what so ever about this one, just a pure pluss for the game, and an example of the great detail in mechanics this game has.
*facepalm*
There is no better way to create a trash game or to trash it's mechanics, than to ignore the negatives and pretend it is perfect.
Thankfully, Tynan doesn't think like this guy.
Quote from: Andy_Dandy on October 19, 2017, 08:46:09 AM
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on October 18, 2017, 12:01:48 PM
Quote from: Andy_Dandy on October 18, 2017, 04:24:22 AM
It's a good thing it's annoying, because if not you as a player would not bother. What's the value of implants or keeping your pawns healthy if it really doesen't matter that much?
You seem to be confusing annoyance and difficulty. One does not imply the other.
No, the annoyance makes you want to prevent it from happening, and makes you care for it not to happen. It also makes you concider not using your master constructer if he is permanently or for the time being has worse then 50% manipulation. I don't want another solution that makes me care less. Removing the wasting of ressources would just be punishing in time consumption, making me not care too much.
To be clear, I don't find the mechanic annoying. The annoyance comes if you choose to ignore the consequences of the mechanic or have to do so (no other constructors). Annoyance in the meaning of not playing optimally, not annoyance like in "I hate this mechanic". But it's all jolly good for gameplay in every way. Nothing micro intensive what so ever about this one, just a pure pluss for the game, and an example of the great detail in mechanics this game has.
So you think ignoring the actual reasons so many people find this mechanic "annoying"is somehow a good idea, eh? Furthermore, you think your definition of that annoyance somehow trumps what people
actually say..?
Nice fail. Since you seem to be unaware: Upsetting large portions of your playerbase can be what is known as "bad".
The REAL problem here, is that debilitating (to at least some extent) wounds are FANTASTICALLY easy to get in A17, with little recourse commonly available (bionics are currently very rare in the "vanilla" game). In fact,
so easy, it becomes more than a little ludicrous and upsetting to many people.
This is compounded when the injury is limiting in a way that makes little to no sense to players.
You honestly have no issues with a one-eyed worker failing (any task besides shooting) at some increased rate, as an easy example? Why, if so? How does that "simulate" anything even remotely close to reality?
Quote from: Bozobub on October 19, 2017, 03:45:34 PM
The REAL problem here, is that debilitating (to at least some extent) wounds are FANTASTICALLY easy to get in A17, with little recourse commonly available (bionics are currently very rare in the "vanilla" game). In fact, so easy, it becomes more than a little ludicrous and upsetting to many people. This is compounded when the injury is limiting in a way that makes little to no sense to players.
Just had a pawn start a social fight with another pawn due to an annoying voice. Apparently it was annoying enough to rip off that pawns right pinky and index finger.
was hunting and shot a rabbit. apparently when rabbits take 3 gunshot wounds ripping off their tail, a leg, and nearly fatally wounding their torso, the only logical response is to
run away and hide like a rabbit would somehow understand where the projectile is coming from and fly at the 20x larger attacker in a ball of furry fury and somehow be effective enough to jump higher than it ever physically could and RIP OFF THE HUNTER'S NOSE. Now everyone suddenly dislikes this hunter. Hunter also subsequently lost a thumb and an ear in a social fight. reason? she was disfigured.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on October 19, 2017, 10:40:35 AM
Quote from: Andy_Dandy on October 19, 2017, 08:46:09 AM
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on October 18, 2017, 12:01:48 PM
Quote from: Andy_Dandy on October 18, 2017, 04:24:22 AM
It's a good thing it's annoying, because if not you as a player would not bother. What's the value of implants or keeping your pawns healthy if it really doesen't matter that much?
You seem to be confusing annoyance and difficulty. One does not imply the other.
No, the annoyance makes you want to prevent it from happening, and makes you care for it not to happen. It also makes you concider not using your master constructer if he is permanently or for the time being has worse then 50% manipulation. I don't want another solution that makes me care less. Removing the wasting of ressources would just be punishing in time consumption, making me not care too much.
To be clear, I don't find the mechanic annoying. The annoyance comes if you choose to ignore the consequences of the mechanic or have to do so (no other constructors). Annoyance in the meaning of not playing optimally, not annoyance like in "I hate this mechanic". But it's all jolly good for gameplay in every way. Nothing micro intensive what so ever about this one, just a pure pluss for the game, and an example of the great detail in mechanics this game has.
If you don't care about time loss in Rimworld, you don't care about how effectively you're playing Rimworld.
Of course I care about time loss, but I care even more about losing rare ressources. That doesent mean I want pure time loss to be the only thing I'd want to prevent of negative maluses in my game. I like how this game is alot richer then just those thypical mediocre game designs out there.
You could easely dumb down the consequences to just be about pure time loss with a mod, I'd guess.
Quote from: Andy_Dandy on October 20, 2017, 03:11:14 AM
... I like how this game is alot richer then just those thypical mediocre game designs out there.
...
While this game does indeed have a well above average depth in its design, the inappropriate loss of body parts does not contribute to it.
It CAN contribute to it once its flaws are addressed, but until they are it only detracts from the depth in design.