I'm strongly considering wiping out the difference between these two resources and just using "wood" for everything.
What do you guys think?
Quote from: Tynan on June 04, 2014, 08:38:04 AM
I'm strongly considering wiping out the difference between these two resources and just using "wood" for everything.
What do you guys think?
I honestly agree with this. I tend to just get piles of logs stocked up. Having to then convert them into planks wastes colonists valuable time and is one of the main reasons I get wiped out easily. Because I spend to much time making planks. Having "wood" do all the work would be far easier, and would help balance things a little.
If you did however do this, If you kept the cost of items the same for "wood" as they use to be "planks" then it would be costly. So you would have to either make trees give you more wood, Speed up tree growth or reduce the cost of wood stuff.
This is my personal opinion anyway :).
I would definitely rebalance some things around the change if it happened. I'm just asking about it as a concept.
i like that there is wood and planks,
but having people carving wood all day long in the begin is quite unhandy.
But of course personal opinion :)
As a concept. It's a yes from me. :)
I kind of like having multiple options, certainly it's more work to refine raw logs into planks, but isn't that the point? In a finished RimWorld I would love to see multiple tiers of building materials, with different sub-tiers each conferring different bonuses/detriments. For example:
Tier 1
Wood planks, Infinite in supply and quick to build, but very weak
Mud bricks, Infinite in supply, quick to build, prone to collapse
Tier 2
Wood logs, refined from planks, slightly stronger
Plaster bricks, mud bricks reinforced with hay (maybe from farming), stronger than mud, more fire resistant than wood
Stone bricks, stronger and fireproof, incredibly time consuming to refine from raw rock
Tier 3
Metal walls, stronger, can carry power, high metal cost, low asthetics
etc.
Maybe my concept isn't quite where RimWorld is headed, but I like the concept of crashing on a random planet and having to start over at more of a tribal wood/stone phase; rather than dropping right down and having access to metal, research benches and turrets.
main issue i have with planks is that if i turn all my logs into planks i cant make log walls anymore! how will i be stylish and make log cabins without log walls! :(
honestly though it feels like an intentional thing to slow you down and annoy you until you can move on to stone and metal walls. it really motivates you to move past low tech wood stuff, and you dont need to use any of it past a certain point so its not such a big issue imo.
also the way you build a hand sawmill only to delete it usually a few minutes later to replace it with a powered one is a little weird.
Definitely yes, changing the wood and plank resources to just for all wood products would be a big boon to people like me who have had problems making bases in Alpha 4.
although this would make the wood workbenches go away, Id probably agree with omitting wood refinement. because if there is wood refinement, the logical extension is that metal would need to be refined as well. While this may be more realistic, it might be too much that you have to do to be able to build anything. huge overhead.
For me, I like the way, that there are logs and planks in this game. Maybe it's now harder to get your base done, but why not?
I understand RimWorld as a game where three people crashed on a weird planet trying to survive-why should they be able to build a fully equipped base in the first few day they arrived?
I would love to see them the first days sleeping in the wrack of their crashed space ship, trying to get something to eat, to find something safer to live in, to survive. When time goes on, the will be able to build more and higher tier stuff (like it's now for wood, but also maybe for metal etc.).
And with time and progress the surrounding tribes and city will take notice of the colony, pirates will start raids...
This maybe would also mean adding more dangerous animals for early game difficulty and delaying things like electricity in more mid-game situations. Sitting around a campfire to have a warm and safer spot in early game... :) That would be so gorgeous.
Ehm, ok, back to my point: I would appreciate to let this mechanic in the game or maybe give us an option either to enable or disable such more-deep mechanics.
I haven't really noticed them taking up a lot of colonists time? Are you setting them to saw logs indefinitely? Because they don't take up much time for me, especially when I get the powered saw going. I usually only have them start doing it when I'm getting lowish on planks. And also I've set crafting to be a lower priority than mining, constructing, and growing (and even hauling for once) so it never gets in the way of the expansion/ building of other things unless I'm low on it.
i think planks should still be used but instead should be focused on more complicated or not as urgently needed items.
in short don't make it a need to saw planks, but that players will want to, just like you did with stone blocks.
speaking of which any chance of a stone wall?
Don't merge them. This game is about surviving and it's a surviving SIMULATION. You may balance the amount of time used to produce planks or the amount of planks produced from logs but don't merge them. In my opinion this game is not ment to be easy so the more difficulty it has the better it gets. I think meging them would be kind of against the concept of the game. Although some poelple may moan about it but i think they should rather face the challenge.
Edit: I just read b0wd3n's answer and I totally agree with it.
Quote from: Dr. Z on June 04, 2014, 02:18:54 PM
Don't merge them. This game is about surviving and it's a surviving SIMULATION. You may balance the amount of time used to produce planks or the amount of planks produced from logs but don't merge them. In my opinion this game is not ment to be easy so the more difficulty it has the better it gets. I think meging them would be kind of against the concept of the game. Although some poelple may moan about it but i think they should rather face the challenge.
Edit: I just read b0wd3n's answer and I totally agree with it.
This, so very much.
I like the extra layers of stuff, it makes it feel like a true simulation of survival and, eventually, conquering your environment (If you can). Reducing this stuff would be like... Dwarf Fortess no longer requiring ores to be smelted.
Interesting balance of responses here. Useful viewpoints all around, please keep 'em coming.
I also added a poll.
I happen to enjoy the log plank difference, using the "craft until x" bill on the table is a handy way to make sure I always have some for building while avoiding having a colonist spend all their time doing so. Getting a good grower who can craft is useful I've found and I think I've struck a nice balance in doing this.
Leave the growing and crafting to 1 person, the construction and whatever else have you to whomever else remains. At first you may need to manually prioritize the crafting of planks as needed but that's why that is there I would think.
In the end I'm in favor of avoiding the resource merge, I like the depth of having to manage more and more resources. I'd go a few steps further and say you already have oak bring on the spruce and plywood for +/- to surroundings. (joke)
I don't think they should be merged. I think there should be a door made of logs for the early game to allow buildings before the first sawmill.
Progression from logs to planks is quite easy at the moment. Perhaps the only efficient way to create planks should be with the electric sawmill.
Quote from: b0wd3n on June 04, 2014, 12:58:58 PM
For me, I like the way, that there are logs and planks in this game. Maybe it's now harder to get your base done, but why not?
I understand RimWorld as a game where three people crashed on a weird planet trying to survive-why should they be able to build a fully equipped base in the first few day they arrived?
I would love to see them the first days sleeping in the wrack of their crashed space ship, trying to get something to eat, to find something safer to live in, to survive. When time goes on, the will be able to build more and higher tier stuff (like it's now for wood, but also maybe for metal etc.).
And with time and progress the surrounding tribes and city will take notice of the colony, pirates will start raids...
This maybe would also mean adding more dangerous animals for early game difficulty and delaying things like electricity in more mid-game situations. Sitting around a campfire to have a warm and safer spot in early game... :) That would be so gorgeous.
Ehm, ok, back to my point: I would appreciate to let this mechanic in the game or maybe give us an option either to enable or disable such more-deep mechanics.
Could not have said it better.
I strongly disagree on this dev, if it was just the one resource it would be to easy to get a base with power. you could get them all to tree cutting straight away and just have planked walls without the need of crafting. I thought roguelike's were ment to be hard and unforgiving.
What we need are breedable animals.
I like the differentiation between logs and planks from a realistic viewpoint. Suspension of disbelief and such. I don't mind that it takes longer to get things started. Unless we're going to start sending prefabricated materials with the colonists when they crash, you really shouldn't be able to have a place built in a day or so. Actually, I wouldn't mind if electricity was out of bounds for awhile and you had to research a method of making planks from logs. (I find myself skipping log buildings entirely.)
I also feel that if metal is made more abundant / wood is made unneeded for worktables and such, the wood economy is going to be ignored in favor of the old style. The wood isn't just there for aesthetics (I hope). It needs importance or it's just a redundancy.
It depends what you're planning on doing with the wood economy.
As it stands, logs have little practical distinction, you chop logs, saw into wood, and then basically use wood for everything. Logs are mostly just your platinum to planks' gold, if you follow. 1 log represents a bunch of planks.
If you were planning on making different things you could process wood into, then it would make sense, as you would collect wood from trees which gives you your source, and different uses for it could be gated behind different technologies or power inputs and suchlike. Though even then, you're essentially just producing a farmed resource. You could convert almost everything into 'farmed, edible' 'farmed, inedible' and 'mined, inedible' and not lose much.
I dunno, I'm not honestly too sold on wood in general, it's not a significant change from metal, and metal is still plentiful so why not just use metal all the time? Even stone is less useful with the HP change.
I think all the construction materials could use something to make them distinct. Perhaps replace wood with 'fancy wood' or something, and make fancy wood structures and items look better and give colonists happy thoughts, but processing it into fancy wood takes a long time and has to be done by hand by someone with good crafting skill, and doesn't produce a lot. Rough wood could be a solid construction material both for log and plank walls, log walls would be tougher, plank walls would be cheaper. Metal walls would be much tougher and more expensive, and non-flammable, stone walls could be both attractive to look at, and more durable again than metal walls.
That's just one balance, of course, wood as the cheap, mass construction material. Stone being the tough defensive and decorative option, metal being good at everything but consuming a rare and very useful material. But I think some sort of more distinct balance between the construction materials might help keep different resources valuable.
Totally agree with Jotun, Metal is still to common. I like the idea of much different wood-types. Imagine yourself in this situation: You wouldn't use the metal in buildings but in things that need electricity, your houses wood be made of wood and building an entire base from metal would consume an absurde high amount of, so that would be very rare seen because nearly impossible.
I concur with the nays. Of course, my preferences are towards on the dwarf fortressy aspects of the game, which means I would ideally like it if you had to make all your tools and process resources through multiple steps to accomplish certain goals.
I don't think metal is too common, though. I've found that wood structures are both aesthetically pleasing and allow for more metal to be used for more important things, like, say, turrets and energy production.
Quote from: Dr. Z on June 04, 2014, 05:16:10 PM
Totally agree with Jotun, Metal is still to common. I like the idea of much different wood-types. Imagine yourself in this situation: You wouldn't use the metal in buildings but in things that need electricity, your houses wood be made of wood and building an entire base from metal would consume an absurde high amount of, so that would be very rare seen because nearly impossible.
I also think if you made metal walls very good, but also made metal hard to come by initially, you could do a lot to distinguish the earlier game from the later game. You'd start out making most things from wood, but as you slowly got more metal, you could replace parts of your base with metal walls and roofs, which would make your base much more durable and less prone to fires/conduit accidents.
Maybe also add some things that require different room types? Like some things can only be built on certain floor types, or away from flammable things. A nuclear reactor for example (I assume with the uranium that's going to be a thing?) could require thick metal or stone walls to shield from radiation, wood objects and walls would catch fire in proximity to it. Later crafting stations could throw sparks which would start fires in wood walls and such, perhaps introduce heavier roof types which need stone or metal walls to hold them up, but which can travel further unsupported and are more resistant to artillery?
There's lots you can do to make building tiers distinct. And the ability to convert wood very inefficiently into high-tier decorative items would keep it useful in the late game.
I am fond of deeper resource chains (e.g. *wood*>*planks* over just *wood*). It adds some nice complexity and resource management to the game for me.
Having to saw planks to construct items, and giving the player options of building both log and plank items makes the game feel a bit more realistic in my opinion. I would be a little sad if it was removed
But I WILL admit that it slows the game down some in the very beginning. The hand saw is so slow versus the electric saw. If you made planks easier to get in the beginning of the game that would really help things. Either by giving you some in the initial drop, making the hand saw faster, or items cost less planks. Or something like that
Perhaps there could be a way to separate the two. The "easy" storytellers allow logs to be used as building materials without requiring them to be sawed into planks, while the "hard" storytellers keep the current system.
I think that the current system should be left as-is.
Quote from: ItchyFlea on June 04, 2014, 08:56:59 PM
Perhaps there could be a way to separate the two. The "easy" storytellers allow logs to be used as building materials without requiring them to be sawed into planks, while the "hard" storytellers keep the current system.
I think that the current system should be left as-is.
what about those of us that like the complexity but prefer the lighter difficulties?
perhaps an option in a menu somewhere is a better idea?
Wasn't there a poll here?
I love making planks, because..
I tend to lean on a little bit of realism and survival like the people here says. :D
you know :)
Keep the differentiation!
I just reworked my entire strategy for playing the game focusing on the wood economy at the beginning and OMG! the difference. After Alpha 4's changes you really have to change the way you think about building your early colony.
I like the diversity. I also like the use of planks as a building resource (i.e. beds) - not only for walls and floors. Maybe I'd add this progression low -> high level to another resources. First rank of a resource for primitive basic buildings, second rank for advanced aesthetics pleasing buildings. Foe example the rock debris could be used straight-away for building rough low-quality walls - an analogy to log walls.
There was a poll, but we had the jist of it :) I'm hoping to see people's reasoning as well as base opinion.
I most certainly think it should stay the way it is.
1. It's scalable as it is, making it all one would limit (at least on the logical level) adding things later. Having a reason to keep a wood production chain running into late-game would also add depth. That's not to say it isn't scalable merged, just doesn't feel at all right to me (that is, if there is any intention of adding more depth to wood in general).
2. Space! The more space we need to run production chains the more we have to think of creative ways to defend larger and larger areas. It also adds to elements like designing efficient bases.
3. Consistency. Metal is the only resource that doesn't need refining (off the top of my head), well discounting that food can be used raw, just with a penalty. Personally, I would rather see metal need refinement too (for more advanced things like walls, while being usable raw for basic needs like power conduits - see next point!)
4. Tech-tree ( ;D) expansion. I would rather more depth to the tech advancement than less. Something along the line of; early wood (logs) gives you a basic wall and can, reasonably quickly, be turned into all the basic needs (i.e. doors, basic bed, etc.) at the trade-off of labor time. Stone then requires refinement to use at all (other than as cover) but provides an early strong material. Metal could then be used for basic essential things (power conduits, component in the plank wall with conduit, etc.) but needs refinement to make become a balanced type of building material, hence a wall that is stronger than wood and still has conduit but not as strong as stone.
I guess in short, I prefer systems and chains. They are what makes the game interesting and forces me to think about how I am going set things up. As a single unit resource I think wood would become a trivial starting bump, just slowing down the overall pace in the first few minuets. As it is, it forces more consideration of prioritising colonist work and early survival elements and provides a plentiful building material for safer areas of a base while you move up the tech tree and/or mine to build up more suitable front-line materials.
The only real issue is the attrition of logs over time (since they can't be recreated from planks). But even with the map deforested, forgetting to suspend the bill, not setting a 'do until x' limit on the bill and not having any log walls left... they can still be regrown!
I don't see the colonist time spent chopping as a relevant reason to merge it at all. Colonist prioritisation and time management is... well... kinda the point of the game!
My big concern is inflating the number of objects. Now you're looking at:
Log wall
Wood wall
Metal wall
Stone wall
Log bed
Wood bed
Metal bed
And tons of other near-duplicates.
My ongoing thoughts on this are: Maybe it would be better to say that logs and planks are usable for almost all the same things, except the things are modified somehow. This becomes a "material system" where a bed can be made of tons of different things, each which modifies its stats somehow. This would also extend into making spruce beds, granite walls, basalt walls, oak log walls, oak plank walls, and tons of pretty dwarfy goodness.
I also like the fact that this is pretty ignorable for new players. My main concern with planks now is that they're such a burden at game start, but if we can have single items which are modified by their construction materials that might reduce the burden a lot because then you could to basically everything with logs and leave refined planks as a later-game, prettier, better material for when you've teched up instead of an immediate requirement at game start.
that's way too many, not every resource should have a furniture equivalent
Quote from: psilous on June 05, 2014, 11:00:46 AM
that's way too many, not every resource should have a furniture equivalent
I agree. But they kind of have to, in many cases, or it makes no sense and frustrates players. This is a main concern of mine with logs/planks.
actually i like having loads and loads of options to build with(all with up and downsides)
because then you have to rebuild certain parts of your colony.
Quote from: Tynan on June 05, 2014, 11:11:36 AM
Quote from: psilous on June 05, 2014, 11:00:46 AM
that's way too many, not every resource should have a furniture equivalent
I agree. But they kind of have to, in many cases, or it makes no sense and frustrates players. This is a main concern of mine with logs/planks.
What you could do, for beds and maybe chairs, have a loyalty bonus for metal beds/chairs and none for wood.
A way it could be done is having something like 'exquisitly wooden crafted bed' that gives a high loyalty/happiness boost but have it take a production chain like thus:
Grow Tree > Harvest Tree > Process log > Process Planks/Refine Planks (needs 100 planks or whatever) = Exquisite Planks x10. Bed needs say 30. The result is higher colonist happiness and loyalty.
I am from teh DF line of gaming so complex, as long as it has a reason, is always welcome. It makes you think and not just go 'metal metal and stone...win'.
I would say keep it how it is and expand on it in the future with the loyalty or some other bonus
I have to say, I really like the sound of a "materials system". ;D
I believe logs should stay. I'd just reduce the amount of itens avaliable.
For instance, I'd have only one bed. I dont realy care if its gonna be wood planks bed or metal bed, as long as theres only one type. A second type could become avaliable later in the game, something like the medbed mod, maybe.
Logs could be used as wall in early game, but I'd remove completely the wood planks wall. I never use wood wall becouse it burns too fast. Log wall could be used fast, in a desperade matter. Later on, you decontruct then, recover the log and refine it to wood planks.
In my opinion, wood planks should be used only for furniture.
So if I'm understanding this material system right, one possibility would be to have only the option "bed" in the construction menu, and when you select it a drop down menu opens wich lets you choose the resource you want to use alongside with the effects it's gonna have. You could also select a favourite resource, e.g. metal, and when you just click on the icon you build a metal bed, but if you want to use another resource you just can select it in the menu.
In my opinion this would add a nice and expandable complexity to the game while perventing the construction menu from being overcrowded with thousends different bed and chair types.
Besides, the thing RimWorld needs the most right now is content, things you have to do, and I don't mean fighting larger and larger raids and building larger and larger bases. I often left my colonys after 120 days ore something like that because the only thing to do is unnecessary expansion or larger raids which is boring (mods are excluded in this statement). So decreasing the number of resources and options you have would be deffinitly the wrong way. There should rather be a way to tell the new players that there are resources which exist but they don't need them right from the start so the material system sounds very good to me.
Quote from: Tynan on June 05, 2014, 11:11:36 AM
I agree. But they kind of have to, in many cases, or it makes no sense and frustrates players. This is a main concern of mine with logs/planks.
as long as the UI is good, this wood not be a problem
under the furniture tab, instead of having a list of all the beds, just have one bed.
When clicked and held down, a radial menu appears where you can drag around to select material. If there are no unforbidden materials of that type available, display a warning as the blueprint appears to notify that you have insufficient materials. (or gray out things you dont have materials for, but Id rather have the blueprint down and then mine for materials after the fact and let colonists get to building it when its ready).
edit: yeah.. what Dr. Z said..
Logs & Planks versus Wood; I'm actually neutral.
My only contention with Log & Planks is that it's inconsistent with the usage of metal. Metal as a resource is simple, you can take any rusty piece of scrap and build a bed, table or solar panel out of it.
Why is carpentry complicated enough to warrant two resources, but metalworking and circuitry is not?
I'd say that you'd need to decide how Metal as a resource should work in the game, and then base this choice off of that.
I would absolutely prefer only one type of wood. Refining seems like it adds a needless extra step to the process.
Quote from: Austupaio on June 05, 2014, 04:21:30 PM
I'd say that you'd need to decide how Metal as a resource should work in the game, and then base this choice off of that.
Metal could be devided in iron and steel, similar to logs and planks. And to build high tech buildings like solar panels you would need to craft something that may be referred to as "premium materials" or something like that, which need both iron and steel (still not very realistic but it goes in the right direction). For the setting of some stranded survivors solar pannels could only made realistic if they're either removed or very very very high tier late-game stuff, but they are not that usefull to justify that, so it's a bit of a pickle.
Personally I like the planks, sawing just kinda feels at home in the setting of the game. As a side note, I don't really need different types of beds, one is enough.
To really answer any production questions we first need to think what the focus of our colonists should be between raids. When playing right now on normal difficulty my team usually just idle between raids, usually 2 are enough to feed the others.
I would be interested in exploration stuff, maybe having a friendly town in the corner of the map to visit. Or we could have more dynamic things like roving thieves you have to stop.
Another approach could be to go hardcore survival mode, so that the colonists spend most their time with food / firewood? production.
We could have things like seasons, herding livestock.
In general I feel that it's too easy to make a giant base right now.
But since colony wealth is tiedvto raid strength it doesnt make much sense to build a huge base, combine that with the fact that I have a huge problem getting more colonists, 99% of the raiders die after 50 days because of the better guns they get shot with.
I would shot for more diffrent refining chains and material type building, it would give more variant to in general.
And refining i.e. logs to planks could mean that if you build a bed and wood logis give 10% to happines of that bed, refined version could just give a higher bonus like 15%. Its not a necessity to build a better bed but for min maxing certian aspects of colony would be cool, like in early stages you would try to build better beds for colonist with best shooting skill so they are more often rested when raids occur, or later stages when you upgrade rooms and working places of your crafters to sustain expenses on your colony automated defences ( crafting tons of bullets for turrets :D).
I'd rather have them merge, because converting them is pretty time-consuming, especially when the colonists are busy doing other things.
Quote from: Tynan on June 05, 2014, 10:27:42 AM
My ongoing thoughts on this are: Maybe it would be better to say that logs and planks are usable for almost all the same things, except the things are modified somehow. This becomes a "material system" where a bed can be made of tons of different things, each which modifies its stats somehow. This would also extend into making spruce beds, granite walls, basalt walls, oak log walls, oak plank walls, and tons of pretty dwarfy goodness.
I also like the fact that this is pretty ignorable for new players. My main concern with planks now is that they're such a burden at game start, but if we can have single items which are modified by their construction materials that might reduce the burden a lot because then you could to basically everything with logs and leave refined planks as a later-game, prettier, better material for when you've teched up instead of an immediate requirement at game start.
I really like the idea of doing it this way both for its effects on the game as it stands and the things it could allow later. +1 from me.
Quote from: Tynan on June 05, 2014, 10:27:42 AM
My big concern is inflating the number of objects. Now you're looking at:
Log wall
Wood wall
Metal wall
Stone wall
I am sure it has been said, so I am just re-iterating. I like the diverse choice of options as it really brings creativity to bases as you can go with different options of how to expand: focus on defences - go with metal walls or maybe expand quickly with wood whilst getting production up with metal.
I would like it to go further with wood as power, as an immediate backup, and more wooden objects.
I somehow feel, that Tynan at this point don't feel alright about having logs and planks for some reason. I would love to have it, because I have an idea of this game and what it might could become. But Tynan, maybe you have to first do it how you feel right about it, merge them firstly together to go on in development and implement your ideas. And perhaps later on there is a better moment to have a somehow more complex "material system" or something like that.
So Tynan, do what you feel is right because I think RimWorld is still in an early development and there will be such huge things you're going to implement. I am waiting for it and I am glad to see what gorgeous things you're going to add.
Quote from: Tynan on June 04, 2014, 08:38:04 AM
I'm strongly considering wiping out the difference between these two resources and just using "wood" for everything.
What do you guys think?
I'm not sure I like this idea.
However, i trust that you Tynan, our illustrious leader will make this game the best you possibly can, do what you feel is right for the game and your vision.
QuoteMy big concern is inflating the number of objects. Now you're looking at:....
I didn't mean to suggest that much duplication. Most things need 2-3 'tiers' at most, imo. For the beds, 2 would be enough... sleeping spot gives you an immediate solution but comes with the negative thought downside, a wood bed (or any early material) would be neutral and a late game bed that takes a bit of investment compared to the earlier one, would give a positive bonus. For things that don't have specific impacts on the colonists like that, though, it really only needs to be 1 item made of a material that allows it to be introduced at whatever point of the game seems to be appropriate.
One of the first things I looked at in A4 was wood floors to see if they had a nice bonus, that's another possible benefit for keeping these materials late game too.
All-in-all I think as long as long as each item has a unique place in the game then there aren't too many! When you start getting new items that come along all the time and give little to no benefit in use, then players are going to skip over things and they are a waste.
I think keeping the two separate would be a good thing. As it is i'm still unsure of the whole magical metal alloy that not only can be come walls but also is copper like and is a good conductor for electricity. i like deep tech trees, which is why i don't really play vanilla minecraft anymore. i only really play it modded. too many games are getting simplified now days.
Am I the only one who barely uses wood early game? I usually look for a steam spot and build a power station and metal walls around it. It's just a small basic shelter for beds, a stove, a small pile of food. Once that works I decide if I have enough trees close by to start a wood economy. My first research is always stone walls though, simply because I want a perimeter that doesn't burn down.
I'm fine with refining logs to planks. Often it's a problem to find enough trees near my starting spot to really use a lot of wood and I try to get my early base running with the starting logs for beds, butcher table, wooden floor...
I think the main problem is that Rimworld lacks a real early game that makes use of logs, and just skips straight to make planks. Rimworld just doesn't feel very "survivally" at the start, and instead the beginning just feels like a tedious base-building exercise that you have to go through before you can start the "real" game. If you had a fog of war mechanic then players couldn't just pause the game at the very start and look for the ideal place for their base and start planning out their final bases before the colonists even land. I would like to see an early base begun at the start and then a latter base produced after you are more established and have explored the map more fully.
I would like stonecutting not having to be researched, electricity and metal put off, and the start basically requiring stone and wood, and there being usage/differentiation between stones, logs, planks, and stone tiles. You could spend them on things like:
1. Firepit: requires rocks to produce. Works like a cooking stove but less efficient, colonists bring logs and the food they want to cook to the fire pit, a cooking animation then plays where the logs are burned and the food is cooked. Since it is harder to cook on an open fire and you are more prone to burning food the fire would require more food to produce a meal from.
2. Stone oven: Requires stone tiles to build, uses less logs/food for cooking.
3. Wood walls: just get rid of them in favor of log walls. Keep wood more of a craft that is needed for hardwood floors, beds, tables, and other furniture.
4. Stone walls: stay the same, but without needing to research stonecutting these become a viable option in the early game and can be seen as an improvement to the wood walls but harder to build.
5. Stone floor: I envision this as being the default flooring material until all the furniture has been produced and players want to go with the nicer more aesthetic wood floors.
By using logs for firewood and walls I hope it can be seen as more of a distinctive resource which is used for crude/unrefined things, like cooking and construction, whereas the planks would be more important for furniture making. Having crafting be an important skill is nice. Perhaps metal could be replaced with ore and a stone furnace would have to be made to refine the ore into metal before you could switch to a metal/electricity economy. Whatever you do Rimwold's still in Alpha and now is certainly the time to be liberal with experimentation. :)
Personally, I'd prefer it if logs and planks stayed as two separate resources. It just makes sense that way.
Well for now looks like they are going to be merged - hopefully in the future when there can be a larger differentiation between the two planks and logs will be reintroduced.
QuoteJune 7
For Alpha4f hotfix: Stone wall health raised from 400 to 650. Nerfed pila from 45 to 30 damage. Merged wood planks and logs, cutting the sawmills, until we have a system to handle this elegantly without creating excessive early-game blockages and near-duplicate constructions. Balance rework on Cassandra and Randy storytellers. Fixed animal insanity waves.
Yeah, I've looked at it and basically some people like the simplicity of one resource, while others want the depth of several. I think both are correct. The reason I'm merging them is because the design isn't ready to smoothly handle such an increased number of resources without becoming clunky with duplicated structures, confusing interfaces and seemingly-redundant economic paths.
When, in future, we can write more code to handle things like being able to build one thing out of several optional resources, I think this will come back. But on review I think the design is a bit immature to be able to do this now.
Quote from: Tynan on June 07, 2014, 12:16:29 PM
Yeah, I've looked at it and basically some people like the simplicity of one resource, while others want the depth of several. I think both are correct. The reason I'm merging them is because the design isn't ready to smoothly handle such an increased number of resources without becoming clunky with duplicated structures, confusing interfaces and seemingly-redundant economic paths.
When, in future, we can write more code to handle things like being able to build one thing out of several optional resources, I think this will come back. But on review I think the design is a bit immature to be able to do this now.
Well I'm always following development - when will 4f be released? As would it be possible to add the 15x speed in too. And I completely agree for now but in the future when the technology age progression has been fleshed out, similar to RTS games - although the focus will most likely be on defences and power.
One question: do wood floors give a negative effect and are metal chairs > wooden chairs? As from an aesthetic appeal wood tiles and wooden furniture do look good and would provide a warmer atmosphere, cf metal.
Quote from: Tynan on June 07, 2014, 12:16:29 PM
Yeah, I've looked at it and basically some people like the simplicity of one resource, while others want the depth of several. I think both are correct. The reason I'm merging them is because the design isn't ready to smoothly handle such an increased number of resources without becoming clunky with duplicated structures, confusing interfaces and seemingly-redundant economic paths.
When, in future, we can write more code to handle things like being able to build one thing out of several optional resources, I think this will come back. But on review I think the design is a bit immature to be able to do this now.
what was broken on animal insanity waves?
Quote from: Tynan on June 05, 2014, 10:27:42 AM
My big concern is inflating the number of objects. Now you're looking at:
Log wall
Wood wall
Metal wall
Stone wall
Log bed
Wood bed
Metal bed
And tons of other near-duplicates.
My ongoing thoughts on this are: Maybe it would be better to say that logs and planks are usable for almost all the same things, except the things are modified somehow. This becomes a "material system" where a bed can be made of tons of different things, each which modifies its stats somehow. This would also extend into making spruce beds, granite walls, basalt walls, oak log walls, oak plank walls, and tons of pretty dwarfy goodness.
I also like the fact that this is pretty ignorable for new players. My main concern with planks now is that they're such a burden at game start, but if we can have single items which are modified by their construction materials that might reduce the burden a lot because then you could to basically everything with logs and leave refined planks as a later-game, prettier, better material for when you've teched up instead of an immediate requirement at game start.
A [Material][Object] system would be interesting, and potentially a good way to de-clutter things while keeping some detail.
As you say you only need one bed, a bed is a bed, it takes up a bit of space and lets you sleep on it, but the option of being able to specify its material to improve it would be neat.
Perhaps have a library of materials based on multipliers to different stats.
So logs would be say, +15% health, -10% beauty, +100% flammability. Things made of them would be therefore slightly more durable, slightly uglier, and able to catch fire.
Stone could be +30% health, -100% flammability, so it would be tougher, no effect on beauty, and non-flammable.
From this you could make a bunch of things into stats, walls would have a health stat, a flammability stat, a load bearing stat (how far away a roof can be from this wall) and possibly a damage reduction stat for making them bullet resistant or something.
Beds would have a health stat, flammability again, a resting stat (how good they are at restoring sleep need), and a beauty stat (as furniture).
Even things like meals and foods could be done this way, a meal can be made of a specific food material, which would modify its nutrition, enjoyability, and preservation stats. Some foods might make faster rotting meals but more nutritious meals, some might make tasty but non-nutritious meals, that sort of thing.
Dunno, if you'e considering a material system you could do a lot with it, it depends how complicated and in-depth you want the potential for micromanagement to be. You could always make things superficially usable by defaulting to a sensible material for each construction, walls default to wood or metal, beds do not try to be made out of potatoes unless you tell them to, etc. But if you want to put the complexity in there you can, and it shouldn't clutter up the menus a lot.
Personally I like the option of having multiple different materials to make different objects. The more the better, it adds the feeling of personal customization, thus making the base "YOURS".
However,
At the moment it seems too much work for my men, especially at the begining of the game to waste time cutting tress, then cutting the wood, then having to construct an object. Anything like that should be late game content, not so early on in base development.
Logs --> Hopper --> Past Dispenser --> Wood Paste --> 3D-Printer --> Planks :D ::) :P
A more serious post now;
My biggest problem with wood is that it burns (as it should do), therefore you can't realistically build a outside base with wood, because much of it will be ashes after the next raid and you have to start again, especially if a couple of raiders uses Molotov's.
However I like the idea of merging wood, then it is more the same as metal.
edit: It would be cool with a campfire where the colonists can make their food the first days, but it should require (1?) wood for each cooking.
Mmmm, grilled boom rat on a stick 8)
Quote from: Sion on June 07, 2014, 06:36:28 PM
A more serious post now;
My biggest problem with wood is that it burns (as it should do), therefore you can't realistically build a outside base with wood, because much of it will be ashes after the next raid and you have to start again, especially if a couple of raiders uses Molotov's.
Honestly, fire doesn't seem that dangerous, unless almost everyone is incapacitated. If 4-6 colonists are able to stand up and fight fire after a battle, they can prevent most fire damage a wooden structure is likely to experience. I got a mechanoid attack with two inferno cannons, but despite that the base you see here only lost a couple stretches of the outer wall to the south and some of the inner wall:
http://puu.sh/9jz6s/3820d963a1.png
And that was after that screenshot was taken, when there was a turret inside. The turret itself actually did 1/3 of the overall damage when it exploded.
So, IMO, fire is underpowered right now. On the other hand, if wood floors could burnâ€"well, that will be an interesting day.
I haven't had a problem with the different kinds of wood--I found it easy enough to build a hand sawmill on the first day and get a small building with wood plank walls and basic furnishings/cookstove by the second or third. I do, however, understand the appeal of simplifying it.
I also like the idea of things being able to be made from different things (beds, for example, as stated in another comment), especially if the interface is intuitive enough.
On another note, this being my first post, I've really enjoyed RimWorld so far and greatly look forward to seeing what else is done with it! I haven't been very excited about many early access games, but this one is most certainly keeping me entertained! Keep up the great work!
Quote from: Tynan on June 07, 2014, 12:16:29 PM
Yeah, I've looked at it and basically some people like the simplicity of one resource, while others want the depth of several. I think both are correct. The reason I'm merging them is because the design isn't ready to smoothly handle such an increased number of resources without becoming clunky with duplicated structures, confusing interfaces and seemingly-redundant economic paths.
When, in future, we can write more code to handle things like being able to build one thing out of several optional resources, I think this will come back. But on review I think the design is a bit immature to be able to do this now.
Hey Tynan
I've taken some time off my game and got back into Rimworld, like a lot of the new improvements but was surprised some stuff like medic packs and rocket turrets still not implemented (things I would really enjoy using). Still loving the game though
Just my opinion but I think you should probably set up some kind of master plan (I know you hate plans so lets call it a map) for the things you really really want in the game and how you'd go about making them and any material that serves no purpose except as intermediary remove it since it's not a focus of your current game mechanics. If raw metal can be used to create automatic gun turrets, why would you need a saw to make planks out of wood to make a rudimentary table?
Now I have seen the DF version of resource/item managment written down, I think i really like it.
I honestly think this is the worst kind of thing who can happen to RW. To be stripped down from the depth of gameplay at this stage.
I know and perfectly understand the systems isnt perfectly able to play with it, this is alpha after all. BUT this is an OPEN alpha, which mean people will already seek gameplay and depth. Right now RW biggest problem is you just have to build two rooms for survive. After that, this is just a question of managing raiders & tactics.
When i bought RimWorld (and I so fucking glad I did it !), my interrest for the game was in the balanced state between tactic fighting rts and the survival aspect. Right now, the game lacks content, we all know it and that not important. But if you manage strip down everything you put in place two weeks after that :
1. Progress will be slowers from customer point of view
2. all the interest of the game will be in fighting. Which mean it will be boring as fuck after two day. Gamer need to be able to "go into it". This is exactly the same kind of question when it come to graphic ; I LOVE your choice of a simple graphic set, which let people play with their own imagination. You dont tell a story here, you put tools to create a story. More tools, more enjoyable the story are.
2. Modding enjoyement will be less practicable. Wood economy right now is not about getting the right balance, but be able to create new set of tools to let the modders do the rest. Log & plank give me planty of idea, to me and other modders. And even if you plan to reintroduce them later, modders will experience lack of "official" possibility.
In other words : let planks economy be put in an official mod, like royal bed or blasting charge.
This is the first time I though the devellopement was getting a step backward.
Anyway, great work, and keep it up ! (and sorry about my crappy english !)
I agree with Beeeeber, if it is possible/easy then use Wood as default then there can be a
mod that separates it into Wood and Planks, not necessarily created by Tynan.
I would rather them not be merged, i believe it will only add to the depth in the long run.
It adds that extra layer to plan around when attempting to finish a simple base layout.
Which i enjoy.
But there should probably be a more distinct difference in crafted wood than logs, but i believe that will solve itself in time when more objects begin to be released.
But thats just me.
Quote from: Tynan on June 07, 2014, 12:16:29 PM
Yeah, I've looked at it and basically some people like the simplicity of one resource, while others want the depth of several. I think both are correct. The reason I'm merging them is because the design isn't ready to smoothly handle such an increased number of resources without becoming clunky with duplicated structures, confusing interfaces and seemingly-redundant economic paths.
When, in future, we can write more code to handle things like being able to build one thing out of several optional resources, I think this will come back. But on review I think the design is a bit immature to be able to do this now.
Elegant and extensible. Each object able to be produced from a wide array of different materials, with different properties.
Want a wall? Want the wall to be stone, logs, planks, or metal?
Well, how do I choose?
A stone wall is tough and doesn't burn ... but can't transmit electricity and requires carving raw stone into blocks first.
A log wall is cheap and fast to build, but it burns, isn't that tough, and can't transmit electricity. Great choice to fence in my fields, poor choice to build my houses or main defensive wall.
A plank wall is tougher than a log wall, transmits electricity, but it burns and requires sawing logs into planks first. Good choice for my interior walls, maybe not so great for exterior walls.
Etc, Etc....
This can be extended to many kinds of construction. For some construction, maybe it doesn't make sense to have it available for only one material. A wooden nutrient paste dispenser? Maybe not ... but perhaps metal could be refined into electronic components, and you would need X electronic components + (Wood OR Stone OR Metal). Electronic components for the science-ey stuff and the other for the chassis. Want a Nutrient paste dispenser that is less prone to shorting and can't catch fire? Use Stone. Want it on the cheap with a widely available material? Use wood, but it has a higher chance of shorting out.
And so on.
If I were as smart and talented and ambitous as Tynan, (: , I would make an elegant and extensible materials system just like that.
I fully recognize that it would require a major revision to the game, but Pulaskimask's post on Page 4 nailed it for me: introducing a tiered materials system that forces research to achieve refinement really streamlines the research tier, incentivizes research, and makes the game so much more realistic.
Beginning with basic building blocks like stone debris, slag, and logs provides you with the most basic amenities to survive with your sanity. Further research tiers unlock the ability to create more refined materials (stone blocks, metal, and wood planks) which are needed for more advanced structures and buildings.
I can understand why Ty would resist such a change. Balancing such a system would be a full time job, for sure. You'd have to be certain that each raw material exists in reasonable abundance to make the game challenging but not impossible. You'd have to tweak the raw materials and time required to convert them into refined materials, and you'd have to play with the materials costs of the advanced structures. And to do it all in a not-quite linear way such that players could choose to go down one path but not another based on their preferred play style and the map in which they find themselves? Hoo boy, that's a tall order. But man, would it make for a fun game.
I tried both builds before and after the planks. I found that planks slowed my initial build and things went a lot better when lumber was removed.
I found building some later structures like metal walls too too much resources to make anything sizable (and on my map there was not enough stone to build a underground structure) and my guys could not mine fast enough which made things take forever.
Quote from: Muramas on June 11, 2014, 03:40:12 PM
I tried both builds before and after the planks. I found that planks slowed my initial build and things went a lot better when lumber was removed.
I found building some later structures like metal walls too too much resources to make anything sizable (and on my map there was not enough stone to build a underground structure) and my guys could not mine fast enough which made things take forever.
I have to agree with you on metal. I don't know why but on the Alpha 4 series it seems harder to get metal and there seems to be not as much of it in ore veins as there used to be.
Oh and I forgot to add that tree farms need some love. I planted some trees when I started and they were not even half way done after a few hours of play.
I understand why logs and planks were merged, I just hope planks make a comeback someday. Maybe once the endgame becomes clear and the difficulty curve can be properly balanced, there will be a place for the saw again. Or even have using planks be a cost-saving measure; if you use wood, you are, in essence, paying full price. But if you use planks (which, let's remember, was 10 logs -> 25 planks) you pay the same cost. However, because you now used 10 planks instead of 10 logs, you have saved 60% of the cost in logs.
Just a suggestion that might get the saw back in the game sooner rather than later; instead of having planks be required, have their use be preferred by the game engine and have the fact 10 logs worth of planks can build 2.5x more be the reward for going through the trouble of building a saw and processing the logs.
You could even do the same thing with metal; put a furnace into the game (made of stone and metal; uses power) and have it process 10 metal into 25 alloy and use the same mechanic. 50 metal builds a battery, but so does 50 alloy... and that 50 alloy only cost 20 metal to make.
This kind of system would make resource refinement A) optional, B) new researches to work towards [Lumber Mill unlocks the electric saw; Metal Refining unlocks the furnace] and C) a way to have resource refinement without slowing down player progression. Also, refined resources sell for double the price of their basic counterparts, making them very attractive to use in trade for silver.
not sure if this is the right place to talk about this. But after playing a while, Ive found it easier for me to completely ignore wood alltogether. My base tends to do better when I ignore my starting area and just relocate my base to the nearest area that has a good amount of metal ore visible. Im not sure if the design is to make us want to use wood before metal, but at the current point, wood is too fragile and takes too long to harvest and develop. (cutting down trees seems to be less efficient than mining metal and metal doesnt need to be refined to planks for doors). If we are supposed to want to use wood, there needs to be some advantage to using wood early game over metal. Either wood needs to be easier to use, or metal must be more difficult. Right now, other than from an aesthetic point of view, Im not seeing an incentive to use wood tech
hmm, I like the direction Tynan is suggesting with the many materials being made into any object with different properties.
I think the whole key is that is should be totally easy to intuit. Like, pick an object and pick a material type.
Would be neat if each material has just a quality (item hp/durability of material) and a property (item effect/buff).
In terms of just making turrets, you could think in these terms:
potato: weak hp, slows enemies
agave: weak hp, heals/repairs over time
berries: weak hp, increase happiness
metal: strong hp, increased damage
wood: weak hp, knock out (incaps)
stone: strong hp, knock out (incaps)
uranium: strong hp, radioactive (poison)
boomrat: weak hp, fire dmg
human corpse: weak hp, reduces happiness/chance to flee
squirrel: weak hp, fast
centipede: strong hp, increased accuracy
muffalo: weak hp, random effect
But beyond guns and turrets directly benefiting from these properties, it still makes sense for other items... please don't sit on that chair because it's made of boomrats and will explode if damaged... oh, and did I mention all the doors in this base were made from raider corpses? I wouldn't go near that table... it's made from muffalo and we don't know what it does yet...
Maybe making a lamp out of a potato works but if you try and make it out of boomrats, it explodes when powered.
Maybe carpets made of berries increase happiness, but pavement made of metal gives damage bonuses to those who stand on them, while colonists standing on wood floors would have increased chance to be incapped over killed. Good, the raiders are taking cover right beside those sandbags we made out of uranium... now it's only a matter of time...
I think this idea has legs! Legs made out of potatoes!
EDIT: Ooh, also, the cool thing about this is that modders could focus on creating new exotic materials with interesting properties. You can make walls of logs, or build the sawmill and make planks, or research a wood/metal hybrid. Antimatter, Plasma, Carbonite, Dilutium... there could be all kinds of new materials to build your base from and perhaps in a more complicated version, some materials might have multiple properties, pros and cons, upkeep requirements (ie. antimatter) or reactionary effects (ie. a wall made of anti-matter creates darkness if powered).