"Ate without table" has been a Rimworld meme for a while now. I'm guessing its function is to convince the player to make a dining table for their pawns. Problem is, pawns don't always eat at the table, because they're either too far away or just dumb. This makes for a relatively common -3 to most pawns that don't stick around the colony when doing their tasks. You can see the disconnect that's happening here.
I think its a no-brainer that it should be changed to "Ate with table", which gives a +3 rather than a -3. This means that it becomes a bonus rather than a nuisance. Pawns won't whine if they have to eat without a table (it is a brutal world out there, not everyone has a table), but will feel better if they eat at one. "Makes me feel more at home". Thoughts?
honestly, i think both are really weird thoughts to have. has anyone ever felt bad in rl eating without a table, or felt especially good about themselves for eating with a table? no way. honestly, it's only purpose is to give you an incentive in the beginning to rush tables, when you're on caravans and pausing somewhere that you should also build one and most importantly (and most annoyingly), when your pawns wander off into the map and pick nick in the woods. it's super annoying, because it can happen whenever, because the pawns dont walk very far to the closest table. you really have to litter your base in late game with tables in order to make sure your pawns dont get that debuff. the thing is, late game -3 mood doesnt mean much. it's generally much worse that your pawn suddenly doesnt have the huge buff of your impressive dining room.
so really, what i'd suggest is either make pawns look for tables to eat on in a much larger radius (or maybe even give the player a slidebar to adjust the search radius for tables for each pawn) or to just get rid of the debuff alltogether.
edit: maybe make pawns eat slower without a table? so it's kind of like the difference between using a butcher spot and a butcher table. the spot is cheaper but slower, just like using no table is cheaper but slower. additionally, comfy chairs (which can easily be built from the skins of wild game you hunted earlier anyway) give you a comfiness bonus, so sitting down to eat especially in good ass dining rooms should be a good way for getting nice boni to happiness. but i guess the debuff's real intention is to teach new players what tables are good for, so as a last resort, change the debuff to -1?
lastly, we shouldnt forget that tynan (probably) believes, that mood balancing is in a fairly good place as of now, otherwise he wouldve changed it by now or told us he was working on it. that said, i dont think the ate-without-a-table-debuff is part of this balance. what i really think is that it is just an occasional debuff that hits some of your pawns like bad mood. so it really is just annoying. so keeping it as a debuff that teaches new players what to do in the game, you could indeed just make the debuff smaller to be less of an annoyance for mid- to lategame.
Quote from: DubskiDude on August 01, 2018, 01:17:26 PM
Thoughts?
I posted this in the 1.0 thread 3/4 days ago. Almost word for word ::)
The "ate with a table" would make more sense as its a comfort thing. Just nice to sit at a table and eat. It's such a small buff it should make little difference to balance
I think these memes are funny :) But there is no difference from 0/-3 mood to +3/0 mood than just adding +3 base mood. Other than losing a bit of humor that is.
"Ate with table" already exists in the form of "Slightly/Very/Extremely/etc impressive dining room."
That being said, I wish we could manually adjust the table search radius, similarly to how you can adjust the material search range for workbenches.
It may be coincidence but my current base is quite spread out, and usually this means that pawns whose bedrooms are far away from the dining room will eat on the spot after they get out of bed; however in this run it seems they will always go up to the dining room. The only time I've seen people eating elsewhere is when they are far away from the base. Maybe something has changed?
Quote from: patoka on August 01, 2018, 01:53:22 PM
honestly, i think both are really weird thoughts to have. has anyone ever felt bad in rl eating without a table, or felt especially good about themselves for eating with a table? no way.
You talk like someone who never had to have lunch in the dirt.
Now let me qualify that by saying having a chair to sit in is 2/3 of the issue, but then some foods just don't eat right without table. Some do, some just don't.
Personally I have had to sit in hot dirt near fire ants and have lunch; I can attest that I had a -3 mood penalty for the rest of the afternoon as a result.
Quote from: Injured Muffalo on August 02, 2018, 12:24:55 AM
Quote from: patoka on August 01, 2018, 01:53:22 PM
honestly, i think both are really weird thoughts to have. has anyone ever felt bad in rl eating without a table, or felt especially good about themselves for eating with a table? no way.
You talk like someone who never had to have lunch in the dirt.
Now let me qualify that by saying having a chair to sit in is 2/3 of the issue, but then some foods just don't eat right without table. Some do, some just don't.
Personally I have had to sit in hot dirt near fire ants and have lunch; I can attest that I had a -3 mood penalty for the rest of the afternoon as a result.
Yeah but did you go murderous rage and kill your best friend because Reason: ate without table?
Who knew picnics were such terrible things.
I've definitely had my share of miserable meals in the dirt... And it really wasn't the table or lack of table that really mattered. It was the quality of the meal (MREs or heated from a tin) the conditions (hadn't bathed in a week, barely sleeping) or comfort (sitting on your own helmet or doing the Forrest-and-Bubba thing) that made those meals miserable.
I think speed, comfort and cleanliness are good reasons to eat with a table. The chairs already handle comfort, but having the table buff eating speed a bit, plus having it negate penalties for food poisoning chance and dirt-generation would be plenty good reasons to use a table without a mood buff/debuff.
I like the idea of changing around the ate without a table thing to something more in line with the rest of the game. Now that we have comfort it makes sense that pawns sitting at the table would get a comfort bonus, and having it be a speed based things definitely feels like it fits more with the current state of the game compared to how the game was way back in the day.
Some legacy systems don't really fit anymore because the game has changed so much over the years. To me this sort of feels like one of them. Though at least its a pretty minor one in the grand scheme of things.
Did you ever eat without a table? It's pretty annoying. Nothing that ruins your mood for the rest of the day, but it's pretty crap nonetheless.
In a lot of countries thats how they eat every day, normally.... on the floor on pillows or rugs with no table in sight.
I don't really want an "ate with table" mood buff, but I'd love a "family dinner" or "sit down meal" buff to pop if several pawns eat at the table together. Then it could be more of a social thing.
For the first 14 years of my life, I would always eat on the floor, out of choice. Sitting and eating at a table has always been uncomfortable to me.
We should keep "ate without table" because it's become such a widespread joke among players. It's a thing you throw out in conversations to see if you get a reference. It's an in-joke, a meme, and one that's a bit more newbie friendly than human skin apparel.
I'm not a fan of the negative 'ate without a table' buff either, as seems out of place when facing other horrors and negative events. Equally a negative buff seems odd when pawns sometimes choose themselves to eat away from a table, not the player. I would get it if the player forced a pawn not to eat at a table. A positive 'ate with table' seems out of place as well, as once you have built a table it seems quite gamey to have almost constant positive buff.
I would have the -3 effect until the moment a table has been built and a pawn first eats at the table, which for most players will not be that long into the game. At that point those pawns get a +3 effect for having first eaten at a table, but then that positive mood effect is a one-off and disappears after 24 hours. Then those pawns do not get either the 'ate without a table' or 'ate with table' buffs, unless players deliberately disassemble or sell all the tables in a colony. Makes it a little more complicated yes, but avoids the annoying -3 'ate without a table' when pawns choose to eat away from the home zone which players cannot really influence.
Shouldn't it simply be a "hidden" general slight debuff to comfort?
Quote from: Azrael_Itaru on August 02, 2018, 09:06:51 AM
For the first 14 years of my life, I would always eat on the floor, out of choice. Sitting and eating at a table has always been uncomfortable to me.
I sold my dining room table after owning it for 2 years and realizing I'd eaten at it about 10 times. Now my "dining room" is an extension of the kitchen.
Quote from: Greep on August 02, 2018, 12:33:18 AM
Quote from: Injured Muffalo on August 02, 2018, 12:24:55 AM
Personally I have had to sit in hot dirt near fire ants and have lunch; I can attest that I had a -3 mood penalty for the rest of the afternoon as a result.
Yeah but did you go murderous rage and kill your best friend because Reason: ate without table?
Woah, woah. No one does that. It's 50 other things, like high psychic drone plus lack of table that make you want to kill. It's -3. Granted, annoying and those bastards need to go to the table if there is one, but, the "reason" is pretty meaningless.
I honestly don't know what the "reason" means; it could just be the most recent annoyance before the latest mental break.
As for my experience, I can tell you that I experienced a sad wander after that lunch. But I was also tired, ate nutrient paste for lunch, uncomfortable, hot, I mean, a table honestly would have been something. I wasn't camping out, I was at work and just had to eat and get on with it.
I think it serves a purpose in that it forces you to create at least one room where pawns tend to run into each other, because they all need to use it. This triggers various social events and develops relationships. Without this need, some of your pawns (like researchers or miners) would just be hermits who never interacted with the others in any meaningful way.
Quote from: cultist on August 03, 2018, 12:44:37 PM
I think it serves a purpose in that it forces you to create at least one room where pawns tend to run into each other, because they all need to use it. This triggers various social events and develops relationships. Without this need, some of your pawns (like researchers or miners) would just be hermits who never interacted with the others in any meaningful way.
If a near-constant -3 to mood is there to encourage players to make tables, well... not sure that's the most effective approach, if that's the end goal.
Quote from: DubskiDude on August 03, 2018, 05:45:38 PM
If a near-constant -3 to mood is there to encourage players to make tables, well... not sure that's the most effective approach, if that's the end goal.
*shrug* Worked for me.
I think it should give a cleanliness bonus, eating at a table. While eating on the floor is dirty. More likely to get food poisoning without it.
You could do this, then increase all the difficulty's mood penalties by 3.
Quote from: Scavenger on August 03, 2018, 05:52:38 PM
I think it should give a cleanliness bonus, eating at a table. While eating on the floor is dirty. More likely to get food poisoning without it.
This makes some sense, but then again it would hurt any pawn that works away from the base, like hunters.
Quote from: DubskiDude on August 05, 2018, 12:40:56 AM
Quote from: Scavenger on August 03, 2018, 05:52:38 PM
I think it should give a cleanliness bonus, eating at a table. While eating on the floor is dirty. More likely to get food poisoning without it.
This makes some sense, but then again it would hurt any pawn that works away from the base, like hunters.
Hand sanitizer!
Eating at a table is not exactly something worth celebrating but having to eat a meal standing up or in your lap is kind of shitty. The penalty reflects that.
Sort of like there's a mood penalty for being in darkness but not a mood bonus for being in a bright area. What really matters is the final mood balance of the game. If having a table would be a mood bonus then they would have to take that mood point out somewhere else just to add another line to the list of mood statuses.
Quote from: Pryomaniac Ida on August 05, 2018, 04:21:06 PM
Eating at a table is not exactly something worth celebrating but having to eat a meal standing up or in your lap is kind of shitty. The penalty reflects that.
Sort of like there's a mood penalty for being in darkness but not a mood bonus for being in a bright area. What really matters is the final mood balance of the game. If having a table would be a mood bonus then they would have to take that mood point out somewhere else just to add another line to the list of mood statuses.
so eating a meal in your lap would bother you for 12 hours. I am sat watching a movie with a meal on a tray and I don't think I will be worrying in 12 minutes let alone 12 hours.
when you go to the cinema do you need a table for snacks ? or a drive through, do you pop out your car table ?
its nicer to sit at a table but hardly something to put you in a mood.
Also why have colonists pick up meals and keep them in gear. makes no sense if they want a table. leave your meals by the table.
Quote from: Jumper on August 05, 2018, 04:30:00 PM
Quote from: Pryomaniac Ida on August 05, 2018, 04:21:06 PM
Eating at a table is not exactly something worth celebrating but having to eat a meal standing up or in your lap is kind of shitty. The penalty reflects that.
Sort of like there's a mood penalty for being in darkness but not a mood bonus for being in a bright area. What really matters is the final mood balance of the game. If having a table would be a mood bonus then they would have to take that mood point out somewhere else just to add another line to the list of mood statuses.
so eating a meal in your lap would bother you for 12 hours. I am sat watching a movie with a meal on a tray and I don't think I will be worrying in 12 minutes let alone 12 hours.
when you go to the cinema do you need a table for snacks ? or a drive through, do you pop out your car table ?
its nicer to sit at a table but hardly something to put you in a mood.
Also why have colonists pick up meals and keep them in gear. makes no sense if they want a table. leave your meals by the table.
Making a plea for realism is pretty silly though and when hours pass in seconds a 12 minute mood penalty would mean nothing.
The developers obviously want to give an incentive players to provide some place for colonists to eat but instead of adding another mood buff for every single colonist in the game at all times they made a penalty for failing to provide it.
Quote from: Pryomaniac Ida on August 05, 2018, 04:55:56 PM
Quote from: Jumper on August 05, 2018, 04:30:00 PM
Quote from: Pryomaniac Ida on August 05, 2018, 04:21:06 PM
Eating at a table is not exactly something worth celebrating but having to eat a meal standing up or in your lap is kind of shitty. The penalty reflects that.
Sort of like there's a mood penalty for being in darkness but not a mood bonus for being in a bright area. What really matters is the final mood balance of the game. If having a table would be a mood bonus then they would have to take that mood point out somewhere else just to add another line to the list of mood statuses.
so eating a meal in your lap would bother you for 12 hours. I am sat watching a movie with a meal on a tray and I don't think I will be worrying in 12 minutes let alone 12 hours.
when you go to the cinema do you need a table for snacks ? or a drive through, do you pop out your car table ?
its nicer to sit at a table but hardly something to put you in a mood.
Also why have colonists pick up meals and keep them in gear. makes no sense if they want a table. leave your meals by the table.
Making a plea for realism is pretty silly though and when hours pass in seconds a 12 minute mood penalty would mean nothing.
The developers obviously want to give an incentive players to provide some place for colonists to eat but instead of adding another mood buff for every single colonist in the game at all times they made a penalty for failing to provide it.
12 minutes was me being facetious not literally meaning 12 minutes ;D
Quote from: Pryomaniac Ida on August 05, 2018, 04:55:56 PM
Making a plea for realism is pretty silly though and when hours pass in seconds a 12 minute mood penalty would mean nothing.
I don't want realism, I want consistency.
I spend an hour making a lavish dining room with statues and pool tables and a 24 meter diagonal TV, with a huge jade table and a stash of smokeleaf joints in the corner for a nice relaxing evening.
Pawn takes a meal from the nearby walk-in freezer, walks out into the world, drags one of the 6 raiders who just lost to us to the dead pile, eats his meal IN THE PILE OF DEAD BODIES and then walks back to the freezer - that is literally an airlock from the dining room - to get another meal.
And feels bad about not eating at a table.
QuoteThe developers obviously want to give an incentive players to provide some place for colonists to eat but instead of adding another mood buff for every single colonist in the game at all times they made a penalty for failing to provide it.
You mean, failing to provide one every 50 tiles in every direction.
I think it's pretty simple to increase the range of a pawn's "search for table" check. That way, they should look for tables from further away than normal.
Quote from: Injured Muffalo on August 02, 2018, 12:24:55 AM
Quote from: patoka on August 01, 2018, 01:53:22 PM
honestly, i think both are really weird thoughts to have. has anyone ever felt bad in rl eating without a table, or felt especially good about themselves for eating with a table? no way.
You talk like someone who never had to have lunch in the dirt.
Now let me qualify that by saying having a chair to sit in is 2/3 of the issue, but then some foods just don't eat right without table. Some do, some just don't.
Personally I have had to sit in hot dirt near fire ants and have lunch; I can attest that I had a -3 mood penalty for the rest of the afternoon as a result.
(ex army guy here)
why did the dear lord give you two feet and two hands? you stand on your legs (and go away from the fire ants (or enemy fire)) and then you use your weaker hand to hold your plate (or some type of mug, dunno how it is called in english, but you eat out of that container in the army) and you hold your spork in your stronger hand.
honestly, i never got a rl-mood-debuff for eating without a table. i sure couldnt relax as well as at home or even just in a cafeteria or on the canteen bench in high school, (in rw terms my comfiness level didnt rise) but being sad about that and maybe even making me go on a rampage killing my fellow men? hell naw
edit: i dont know about you guys, but eating without a table irl is really unimportant to me. i made a list of somewhat related things that annoy me more, from most to least annoying:
- eating food i dont like (capers? more like hell spawns)- eating in the rain
- eating bad food (be that healthwise, nutritionwise, tastewise or because it is poisoned)
- eating with someone i cant stand at the same table- eating at a noisy place
- eating in the cold
- eating with someone i cant stand in sight or hearing range (especially with annoying voice trait)
- eating on the move
- eating food that wasnt worth its wait or price- eating alone
- eating food without having sth to drink
- eating food outdoors (idc if that's the "style" of your restaurant)
- eating without cutlery (yes i really dislike eating pop-corn and the like)
- eating while only using my weaker hand (only did that once as a kind of challenge with my friends way back in the day. but i guess this also applies if you break your arm/hand/collar bone)
- eating without a chair
- eating without a table- eating cold food and leftovers (i genuinely enjoy eating those, especially leftovers of my spouse or cold pizza)
granted, this list is very personal, but still, it should show how many things could slightly budge a pawn but they mostly dont give a -3 in mood.
Quote from: patoka on August 06, 2018, 07:24:54 PM
(ex army guy here)
why did the dear lord give you two feet and two hands? you stand on your legs (and go away from the fire ants (or enemy fire)) and then you use your weaker hand to hold your plate (or some type of mug, dunno how it is called in english, but you eat out of that container in the army) and you hold your spork in your stronger hand.
I was on my feet all day and you can't eat and open everything with one hand. How stupid it is to bend down to your lunchbox over and over again. And as for the ants, they were all over the place. I tried to pick a spot away from a nest, but they pretty much wander around. That's what a desert is like.
But I'm not a tough army guy, so maybe if you have the tough trait you shouldn't get -3 from eating without a table. ???
Quote from: Injured Muffalo on August 06, 2018, 07:58:59 PM
But I'm not a tough army guy, so maybe if you have the tough trait you shouldn't get -3 from eating without a table. ???
yep, i'm pretty tough alright. unfortunately i am also too smart (
"for my own good") and have an annoying voice.
"Ate in bed staring at TV, comfortable nudity" +5