In bug section Tynan said that wealth system (and raid strength) was changed (at least there was added threshold for wealth of buildings). Does anyone know how this new system works? Only information that I have is here https://rimworldwiki.com/wiki/Raider .
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=43206.msg427423#msg427423
good discussion here, with the code analysis
basically - pawn contribution to raid point is now dependent on wealth, bionics + flooring now counts, release-capable animals get additional raid point contribution. Also, on merciless, the lowered raid strength you get from suffering downs/deaths has been severely blunted.
Its kind of funny, I and some other players actually thought you went overkill on wealth control in b18, but it turns out with b19 its more important than ever. You were a prophet in that regard!
Surprised that someone still remember my post about naked brutality that included wealth control.
I thought it would be fun to do it in b19 because there were quite a lot of changes.
I read that discussion. So wealth before 14k is not considered at all, after 14k it starts to affect raids. Guess I should remove and sell all floors when I'm near 14k).
Regarding maximum wealth control. I used it just because it's an easiest way to play on Naked Brutality on merciless. May be it's the only way)
If you don't like the vanilla threat points system, I have a mod called Combat Readiness Check that you could try.
Thank you for information but it seems to me that your mode makes raids easier overall (even though I really like idea not to count disabled pawns into raid strength). And as you can guess that if I play on naked brutality on merciless with most of the good events disabled then I search for as hard challenge that I can think of.
Quote from: BLACK_FR on September 01, 2018, 03:40:23 PM
Regarding maximum wealth control. I used it just because it's an easiest way to play on Naked Brutality on merciless. May be it's the only way)
It's the only way to play extreme at all now, along with having low colonist count. Less than 10 colonists + wealth control makes extreme more like medium.
Quote from: BLACK_FR on September 01, 2018, 05:34:01 PM
Thank you for information but it seems to me that your mode makes raids easier overall (even though I really like idea not to count disabled pawns into raid strength). And as you can guess that if I play on naked brutality on merciless with most of the good events disabled then I search for as hard challenge that I can think of.
I wouldn't say it was easier, just finely tuned.
It means that (for example) you can spend less time thinking about how to minimise your wealth, and more on actually fighting the raids that the system generates.
It also has mod options that can be adjusted to make things harder.
Hey guys, can you please link the previous discussion of wealth control here? I'm super curious to know how that's done.
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=41992 (I played Naked Brutality on max difficulty before it became one of default scenarios. I even disabled some of events to make it more brutal (no wandere join in, chased refugee, self-tame, farm animal joins or resource pod crash).
It's for b18 so some advices from my collection are not relevant for b19 (shooting training for example), some aspects were rebalanced and were made more difficult (which is good!).
But I just started new game on merciless naked brutality with disabled good incidents above and using that knowledge I'm doing just fine in my second run (first run I checked how wooden traps work and 1 attacking pirate went over all of them and killed my only pawn; only steel traps in the future).
Wonder what your thoughts are on using dead guy power armor, since mood punishment is now -5.
Manhunter now requires a little brain to deal with since they can run through door if incautious.
I think shooting training is actually easier if time isn't a concern (hunting xp is buffed, though admittedly you can't farm manhunter with ease anymore. Keep in mind xp gain now scaled to weapon stats so sniper will give more xp per shot than autopistol) and we are in no rush, so who cares about time inefficiency anyways.
If you care about fast shooting xp, can fight infestations.
Feels like some of the worst things you can do this patch is accept a subpar pawn because you got impatient, since the per pawn raid point contribution is now dependent on wealth, and in general scales much harder than the flat contribution from b18
I basically used dead's man armor all the game (from vests to power armor). Specifically because of wealth management.
You can control mood easily, -5 debuff is nothing, you wear armor only for fights, you can use mood buffers for that time, so dead's man armor is a way to go.
I didn't saw changes to shooting yet, is hunting the best safe way to go now?
Also I DO care about time, it's always an issue. If you are doing shooting training you are NOT doing some other useful stuff. So efficiency matters (in real life to, by the way).
I was very picky in the b18 about new pawns (accepted only two before made ship and flew away), no reason to change that habit.
Wearing armour only for fights is a bit harder now that the time to equip was increased a lot.
Quote from: zizard on September 05, 2018, 03:17:35 PM
Wearing armour only for fights is a bit harder now that the time to equip was increased a lot.
Also, too much micro for my taste. I play games to relax, not to agitate myself lol
Quote from: BLACK_FR on September 05, 2018, 04:30:25 AM
I basically used dead's man armor all the game (from vests to power armor). Specifically because of wealth management.
You can control mood easily, -5 debuff is nothing, you wear armor only for fights, you can use mood buffers for that time, so dead's man armor is a way to go.
I didn't saw changes to shooting yet, is hunting the best safe way to go now?
Also I DO care about time, it's always an issue. If you are doing shooting training you are NOT doing some other useful stuff. So efficiency matters (in real life to, by the way).
I was very picky in the b18 about new pawns (accepted only two before made ship and flew away), no reason to change that habit.
but really what is 'useful'?
Besides stuff that is survival critical and periodic (food), stuff that progresses you combat-wise in a way that justifies wealth increase (dead guys armor), and research (which you are not penalized in terms of raid point), there's no rush to really do anything.
With your wealth control tactics properly applied, merciless raids are far, far less scary than wealth uncontrolled games, so there's not a huge amount of pressure on that axis either.
Quote from: zizard on September 05, 2018, 03:17:35 PM
Wearing armour only for fights is a bit harder now that the time to equip was increased a lot.
I'll see how it goes. Basically when any fighting event is started I hit pause and start micromanaging. I don't know if it will be enough.
Quote from: vampiresoap on September 05, 2018, 03:23:47 PM
Also, too much micro for my taste. I play games to relax, not to agitate myself lol
Then Naked Brutality on Merciless is not best option for you) But even on lower diffuculties I think it's good idea to micromanage fights because consequences are so much higher.
Quote from: bbqftw on September 05, 2018, 08:20:34 PM
but really what is 'useful'?
Besides stuff that is survival critical and periodic (food), stuff that progresses you combat-wise in a way that justifies wealth increase (dead guys armor), and research (which you are not penalized in terms of raid point), there's no rush to really do anything.
With your wealth control tactics properly applied, merciless raids are far, far less scary than wealth uncontrolled games, so there's not a huge amount of pressure on that axis either.
First of all, every raid has a chance to screw you. Even if you are fully prepared there is always a chance that something goes wrong. Also there can be conjunction of events that will lead to your end.
Secondly, there is ramping of raids with the time.
Thirdly, there are always things you need asap for you survival. You need complex clothing and furniture, you need penoxyline, you need to tame and train animals (for fighting purposes), you need to make outer wall, you need to make your defences ready, you need to be ready for the AI quest (b18), you need to make decent guns for mechs and sieges, you need armor to reduce chance of random deaths (vests and advanced helmets that are not masterwork or legendary are good even if they are not from deadman), you need turrets in mid- and lategame, you need to make money for neirotamine and for the materials, you need to acquire tons of materials for ship and other purposes and you need to make advanced components.
So there is a lot to do.
B19 no longer has a time ramp factor past 40 days.
With tribal you are right, there is definitely more setup eff required early game.
So the game is not gonna get infinitely harder as time goes on?
No, the adaptation is capped and the game only gets harder based on colonists and wealth.
The wealth system with the 14000 buffer is not really significant for your main colony, though it's noticeable if you deconstruct ancient ruins. But you can clearly see the difference when you build secundary settlements. Then you've got trained, well equipped colonists on pristine maps with ~8000 building wealth. The result is you get really small raids even on merciless whereas on b18 small mining outposts could be much more challenging to defend. Same on sea ice.
The ancient ruins amount to 5000-8000 wealth in my experience, maybe the 14000 buffer is a bit large and could be slightly reduced.
Actually the fact that there is no ramp-up and you have first 14k of wealth "raid-free" changes a lot for merciless naked brutality.
Your main goal is to survive plague, make cheap preparations (like 1% health-pemmican) and research all you can with basic research bench. Only after that you cross that threshold, but you cross it prepared, with uber-skilled pawns and all things you can amass without crossing that threshold.
So it makes early-game much more slow and easy.
Are there non cheesing/micro-intensive methods that lower wealth?
Gifting excess to traders who will accept it. I don't see that as cheesing it. Perhaps also the drop pod gifting when you have that researched and built.
In my games I just make an effort to not mine or gather food excessively, or anything else that can be worth too much - no large amounts of clothes or blocks or wood or metals or anything else that I can limit.
Quote from: BLACK_FR on September 10, 2018, 02:31:11 PM
So it makes early-game much more slow and easy.
It also makes mining outposts easy to defend, even more so late game. It could be more closely tied to your total wealth and add events.
Quote from: vampiresoap on September 10, 2018, 11:34:14 PM
Are there non cheesing/micro-intensive methods that lower wealth?
Accidental grenade throwing accidents in the stockpile.
Quote from: vampiresoap on September 10, 2018, 11:34:14 PM
Are there non cheesing/micro-intensive methods that lower wealth?
It depends on what you mean by cheesy methods. I don't think that getting all your stockpiles of food to less than 10% health is cheesy, for example. You can read my guide for merciless naked brutality in b18.
Main points for wealth management from there:
1. Sell all not crucially needed stuff. Because of exchange rates it can have big effect.
2. Destroy all unused weapons.
3. Keep health of all items below 10% (if health is not affecting their efficiency). That includes furniture.
4. Don't finish items (like apparel for selling) until the time to use them.
5. Don't have excess stock of raw resources that don't have health (like steel).
6. Be very picky with new colonists, they have to be good ones.
7. Use dead man armor (and if you made legendary or masterwork armor yourserlf you should definetly sell it).
I think those 7 rules cover all wealth management there is in the game.
I can't emphasize how important destroying dropped raider weapons is, you can easily end up with 20%+ raid point spike from a single raid. It is incredibly time inefficient to smelt them, and you get an additional 20% sell modifier so they aren't worth jack.
In my opinion a differentiator of merciless defense setups is "how many molotov throws disposes of the entire raid"?
Quote from: bbqftw on September 11, 2018, 02:00:28 PM
I can't emphasize how important destroying dropped raider weapons is, you can easily end up with 20%+ raid point spike from a single raid. It is incredibly time inefficient to smelt them, and you get an additional 20% sell modifier so they aren't worth jack.
In my opinion a differentiator of merciless defense setups is "how many molotov throws disposes of the entire raid"?
Yes, you definetly should destroy all weapons that are not used. Molotov coctails are bad, grenades are good (ofc with less 10% hp to reduce wealth).
Quote from: BLACK_FR on September 11, 2018, 08:00:41 AM
Quote from: vampiresoap on September 10, 2018, 11:34:14 PM
Are there non cheesing/micro-intensive methods that lower wealth?
It depends on what you mean by cheesy methods. I don't think that getting all your stockpiles of food to less than 10% health is cheesy, for example.
I actually consider that VERY cheesy, and resent you for making me aware of it. (only half sarcasm).
What is your opinion for a fix? Tynan appears very aware of the tendency of players to optimize the fun out of a game, and actively takes steps to prevent that. What if item wealth was independent of sell price? Ie. you damage your items to 10% health, they will only sell for 10% health, but still count for full wealth? Then it is less likely to be abused, but punishes players that 'legitimately' had their base raided to [near destruction], but not destroyed.
Quote from: fecalfrown on September 11, 2018, 04:08:28 PM
What is your opinion for a fix? Tynan appears very aware of the tendency of players to optimize the fun out of a game, and actively takes steps to prevent that. What if item wealth was independent of sell price? Ie. you damage your items to 10% health, they will only sell for 10% health, but still count for full wealth? Then it is less likely to be abused, but punishes players that 'legitimately' had their base raided to [near destruction], but not destroyed.
I think food's value should be independent of hit points. Or, nutrition should be dependent on it.
Your food has 10% of its hit points? Well then you need to eat 10 meals now don't you? Have fun optimizing that one.
You do realize that such a system effectively exists for weapons right now (full penalty to item wealth, lowered sell price)? Which is why a key mark of skill on merciless right now is how efficiently you can destroy raid drops.
If you didn't have the knowledge to understand the weaknesses in the game mechanics (in this case, the overwhelming correlation of raid points to wealth proportionate factors), you probably don't have the knowledge to fix them either.
There's a reason strategy discussion is dead on this forum/reddit, and general community skill level is low. Because people know not to talk about interesting strategies, as they will typically be fixed in ways that make the game less skill based.
In any case, 10% is pretty low health for things like mollydrop. Though with blacks pawn count he probably won't ever see a drop pod raid, lol.
Better to switch to food option that requires little to no stockpiling imo ;) but that's an exploit too?
Curious about your base design, black. Space optimization is obviously the key here, curious how you approach it. Do you typically even end up facing sappers in late game?
Quote from: bbqftw on September 11, 2018, 04:40:03 PM
You do realize that such a system effectively exists for weapons right now (full penalty to item wealth, lowered sell price)? Which is why a key mark of skill on merciless right now is how efficiently you can destroy raid drops.
If you didn't have the knowledge to understand the weaknesses in the game mechanics (in this case, the overwhelming correlation of raid points to wealth proportionate factors), you probably don't have the knowledge to fix them either.
I'm assuming you're responding to me? Rather than write a condescending response, why don't you offer a solution like I asked for, since I don't have the knowledge.
Is making sculptures always a "bad" idea? Because it just slightly increases pawns' moods but insanely increases the colony wealth.
No, i think it's worth it on merciless to get the beauty mood buff up to +15, but you've to be strategic. Just put enough art to get a buff in a few places, bedrooms, workshop, dining room, don't overkill and trade the surplus constantly.
Quote from: fecalfrown on September 11, 2018, 04:08:28 PM
I actually consider that VERY cheesy, and resent you for making me aware of it. (only half sarcasm).
What is your opinion for a fix? Tynan appears very aware of the tendency of players to optimize the fun out of a game, and actively takes steps to prevent that. What if item wealth was independent of sell price? Ie. you damage your items to 10% health, they will only sell for 10% health, but still count for full wealth? Then it is less likely to be abused, but punishes players that 'legitimately' had their base raided to [near destruction], but not destroyed.
In b19 there were MANY fixes for OP strategies. For example you can't train shooting on mad animals (by peeking out of door, making few shots, going back, repairing the door and repeating it until you got your 4k xp). Or you can't make "defensive doors" instead of sand bags (open doors were best cover). Or more hard times to have fighting animal squad and so on and so on. But that is GOOD. That improves balance. So I will share all my "cheesy ways". If they will be fixed - good, I'll find other ones.
Getting all your items to less health is part of current game mechanics. I think you should use all benefits that game mechanics provide (unless it's a clear bug). If Tynan doesn't like the way players use than mechanics - than he should change it (which he often do and in the good direction).
Considering fix of health thing. I agree with idea that item health should affect item efficiency (like it do in weapons or apparel). So food should have less nutrition, meds should have less tend quality multiplier, and so on.
Quote from: bbqftw on September 11, 2018, 04:40:03 PM
There's a reason strategy discussion is dead on this forum/reddit, and general community skill level is low. Because people know not to talk about interesting strategies, as they will typically be fixed in ways that make the game less skill based.
In any case, 10% is pretty low health for things like mollydrop. Though with blacks pawn count he probably won't ever see a drop pod raid, lol.
Better to switch to food option that requires little to no stockpiling imo ;) but that's an exploit too?
Curious about your base design, black. Space optimization is obviously the key here, curious how you approach it. Do you typically even end up facing sappers in late game?
I actually disagree about bad fixes. B19 fixes were pretty good imo. And I think that we should share all "interesting strategies", because if they were really cheesy and were fixed out - than it's a good thing.
In my game I can easily get all events, including raid drops (ruined me first time though), but only in mid-late stages of the game (when you
have to increase your wealth in order to make better defense and 1-2 advanced research tables with multi-analyzer).
I completed full playthrough only in B18. I will attach screens (there were traps in bottom-left corner and turrets behind those walls in the middle; as you can see it's all simple and easy). My current colony in B19 is pre-electricity (I just restarted after discovering that reinstalling traps is
always wrong and you should uninstall-install them instead). It's just a big room 14x8 with 4 doors in the corners, 2 traps near one of the door (I open it so raiders go there) and attached room for prisoners. Although I disabled all good events to make game harder (attached my current scenario too).
Quote from: vampiresoap on September 11, 2018, 07:13:06 PM
Is making sculptures always a "bad" idea? Because it just slightly increases pawns' moods but insanely increases the colony wealth.
I actually disagree with Wanderer_joins. I think making sculptures is
always bad idea. It's too hard on the wealth.
Quote from: Wanderer_joins on September 12, 2018, 02:30:13 AM
No, i think it's worth it on merciless to get the beauty mood buff up to +15, but you've to be strategic. Just put enough art to get a buff in a few places, bedrooms, workshop, dining room, don't overkill and trade the surplus constantly.
It's especially bad idea on Merciless. Even if you got permanent buff of mood up to +15 it wouldn't worth it (and you don't). Also don't forger that apart from increased raid size you also lose your "low expectations buff", that another solid reason not to make sculptures for mood management. You can make them for sell though. Just don't finish them (let them lay with 1 unit of work remaining) until trader arrives.
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Ok, i'll just tell you this, removing all the art in my end game base dropped the building wealth by ~14000 and threat points from 13612 to 13520...
Art is awesome, you've just be careful not to go to much to soon. I've seen thriving colony fall on mood issues rather than threat issues, and i put breaking during a raid on a mood issue.
Ok, I'll just tell you this. In my B18 run all my wealth for fully prepared base (without a ship) was less than 20 000. To add 14 000 just for slight improvement (very slight) is very questionable choice.
Especially if you consider all other option (psychoid pekoe or even plants). Art just add too much wealth for it's usage.
In a 20 000 base and your example, you would barely need 1 000 art in your common workshop, dining room/ rec room to turn it from slightly impressive to extremely impressive (+3) to (+6) and to give a beautiful environement mood boost (+10) for people in the room (eating/ relaxing/working).
The 1 000 art at this wealth even on merciless will only add ~6 points, for comparison a basic tribal warrior is worth 60 combat points.
Art is always worth it in the main rooms where pawns eat/ relax/ work or in your hospital. You just have to make sure you reach the desired threshold and don't get ahead of yourself.
[attachment deleted due to age]
Good points man, I like it. You made me test sculptures and change my opinion about them a little. Now I think that they are generally bad, but can be good in some cases.
So let's get to details.
Sculptures are good when they add beauty, all other properties are irrelevant. It means that you should try to get sculptures for yourself made from Jade. Other sculptures can be good too, but they much less beautiful for roughly the same wealth.
Secondly, bad-quality sculptures are bad, but still add substantial amount of wealth. For example large jade sculpture with normal quality has price of 650 wealth and 260 beauty but large jade sculpture with excellent quality has price of 975 wealth and 780 beauty. So for 50% more wealth you get 3 times more beauty. That means that you have to have pawn skilled in art to make good sculptures.
Thirdly, you have to get direct benefits. So installing a sculpture should get over thresholds of mood buffs. If it gives nothing or just 1-2 mood buff it may be not worth it.
Fourthly, they are very work-intensive. In early game you basically can't afford to spend so much time training your art-maker.
Also you have to understand that with new wealth system wealth is not only give direct raid points but increase wealth generated by pawns. So effects of wealth are higher that your estimation.
How did you estimated 6 points from 1000 wealth? I know general algorithm but don't know exact formula.
So my conclusion: art has some limited utility, in mid-lategame you can place good quality jade art in your common workshop to reach some mood buff thresholds, but you have to be very careful about it. More you struggle with mood more you should consider it.
Exact formula is in this post:
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=43206.msg427423#msg427423
I made progressive simplifications in this post; the first equation should be correct for wealth of 14-400k.
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=43206.msg427444#msg427444
I read that post earlier.
Am I right that it means that 1k of item wealth adds about 8-11 raid points? My calculations give me around this number (with 1-2 colonists). In that case if 6k of wealth adds 1 raider it means that by the cost of 1 raider you can upgrade your colony substantially (and sculptures that Wanderer mentioned are even more good).
Also am I correct that if you start naked brutality with 6k ancient ruins than you have 11k "free wealth" to grow your colony (because ancient ruins are buildings and it is halved)? It means that stat "colony wealth (this map)" from statistics tab in history is calculated wrongly (because it doesn't halve building wealth).
For 1k item wealth, the base value (everything apart from the F factors) would increase by 6.22 + 0.32 * num colonists. With 1.5 colonists, this is 6.7. Then this is multiplied by extreme difficulty factor 2.2 and adaptation factor 0.76-1.24. So the end result will be about 11-18 points.
Yes, I think the 11k value is correct for that. The colony wealth with full contribution from buildings is still good to know because it determines the mood expectations value. Sometimes I call the wealth with buildings halved "raid wealth" to distinguish them.
Then it's about 15-18 raid points for each 1k of wealth for me. 4k wealth for 1 raider. Still pretty good.
Does amount of skills of pawn affect his raid contribution? From formula above it doesn't seem so, but I tested it and new skills definetly are adding pawn wealth. Does that pawn wealth affect anything?
Colonist value gets included in the raid wealth. So a colonist contributes as if he were an item, plus the colonist specific amount.
Sculptures are considered as buildings as soon as they're installed, and the contribution to storyteller wealth is halved. In the example above at 20k wealth, 1k of art adds: 3.11 * 2.2 = 6.8 points on merciless
Then you actually add .32 * 2.2 per colonist and factor in adapatation. Which would end up between 6.8 and 11.1 points to be perfectly accurate.
You are right, we should count art on half of it's value. But you forgot about adaptation factor, if you play it good it's usually 1.24.
Also I just checked that if you damage your sculptures their wealth is going to near-zero but their beauty stays the same. That way art is super-useful.
I will use it until it fixed. And I really think it needs to be fixed.
The reason that I will use it is that current balance is made with this mechanics of health, so you can't just ignore mechanics without creating artificial difficulties. It's like saying "killboxes and animal army are broken, I won't use them".
Adaptation factor is not overwhelmingly influential. As far as I can tell, true adaptation multiplier on merciless is 1+(.4*(adaptation factor-1)), where adaptation factor is displayed in the storyteller (value from 0.4 and 1.5). This is a 37%~ difference between max and min, but it's quite challenging to remain at min adaptation even if you're doing things like letting every refugee die.
So to massively min-max it, damage all your art to 10% HP, then when a trader shows up repair it all, uninstall it, and sell it :D
Quote from: 5thHorseman on September 13, 2018, 12:24:06 PM
So to massively min-max it, damage all your art to 10% HP, then when a trader shows up repair it all, uninstall it, and sell it :D
Too gamey and micro-intensive for me.
It does have a cost, when you get consecutive drop pod raids in your favorite rooms, sometimes Molotov involved. Then you have very little time to save things.
Quote from: vampiresoap on September 13, 2018, 01:17:38 PM
Quote from: 5thHorseman on September 13, 2018, 12:24:06 PM
So to massively min-max it, damage all your art to 10% HP, then when a trader shows up repair it all, uninstall it, and sell it :D
Too gamey and micro-intensive for me.
Everything in this thread is too gamey and micro-intensive for me. I see no reason to play on Merciless and do all this micromanagement when you get the exact same experience from Rough or Savage without all the BS work.
Quote from: bbqftw on September 13, 2018, 10:40:55 AM
Adaptation factor is not overwhelmingly influential. As far as I can tell, true adaptation multiplier on merciless is 1+(.4*(adaptation factor-1)), where adaptation factor is displayed in the storyteller (value from 0.4 and 1.5). This is a 37%~ difference between max and min, but it's quite challenging to remain at min adaptation even if you're doing things like letting every refugee die.
If you play on naked merciless brutality you basically can't afford to lose colonists. So you basically have 1.24 multiplier for all raids.
Quote from: 5thHorseman on September 13, 2018, 12:24:06 PM
So to massively min-max it, damage all your art to 10% HP, then when a trader shows up repair it all, uninstall it, and sell it :D
You are overthinking it. Why sell them? If they are good then let them be in your colony with 10% hp.
Quote from: 5thHorseman on September 13, 2018, 01:59:56 PM
Everything in this thread is too gamey and micro-intensive for me. I see no reason to play on Merciless and do all this micromanagement when you get the exact same experience from Rough or Savage without all the BS work.
Then I have to seem even more weird to you by disabling all "good" events while playing merciless naked brutality)) But hey, everyone finds fun where he can. You are more casual player, many people here are more hardcore. It's not hard to make your items to be less than 10% hp, but if it's too hardcore for you, then ok. But you can't win hardest scenarios that way.
Quote from: BLACK_FR on September 13, 2018, 05:06:56 PM
Then I have to seem even more weird to you by disabling all "good" events while playing merciless naked brutality
Not at all. But if you play that way AND min-max it to win AND complain that you have to in order to survive then yes, that's weird to me. I'm not saying YOU're doing that, but I've seen it, a lot.
I can't stress that my problem isn't with it being done. I even enjoy the mental puzzling-it-out aspect my own self even if I won't put the work into putting it into practice. My problem is the complaint that you can't win at the high levels without doing it. Well, of COURSE you can't. That's what those levels are FOR. If you can win at the highest level without gaming every single system and maybe still losing then the highest level needs to be made harder.
To be fair, its not the only way to win this scenario. I've seen high wealth victories from NB opener, with high death counts, as opposed to the conservative style advocated here.
That said almost invariably there are a lot of tactics used in those runs that people would find distasteful too (things that make the AI look moronic, abusing specific movement patterns). But its not like there are 'fair' solutions to a lot of the quadratically wealth scaled threats the game throws at you in merciless.
So you find things like "how to kill 25 elephants with one pawn without risk of structure or pawn damage".
I find it so weird where people will try to min-max playing on the hardest difficulty just to have the game play like it was on a lower difficulty.
I mean Sacrificing a pawn once a year to reduce raid sizes.
remove all your flooring.
damage all your equipment to below 30%.
it feels so weird. Just play the game, accept that it will get more difficult over time, accept that you will eventually lose pawns.
Quote from: Electroid on September 13, 2018, 06:44:03 PM
I find it so weird where people will try to min-max playing on the hardest difficulty just to have the game play like it was on a lower difficulty.
I mean Sacrificing a pawn once a year to reduce raid sizes.
remove all your flooring.
damage all your equipment to below 30%.
it feels so weird. Just play the game, accept that it will get more difficult over time, accept that you will eventually lose pawns.
Yeah, man. I find it weird too, but maybe it's actually fun to them. Everybody's different.
Actually you need to sacrifice twice a year
You could say, looking from the pawns perspective..
'hey man we got raiders everywhere, anything worth.. anything , they're going to steal and, we're going to die for..
You're right...
We're fkd..
I know! lets just smash our shit up! like, really fk the place up, make it so we look like we aint worth, ..nothin!
then we build our ship right under their god damn noses n get the fk outa here!
Love it bro, fkn ,love it, sweet idea
*Proceeds to smash the fk out of everything*
lol
It makes sense that you stay inconspicuous, live under the radar, your job is to gtfo of there, if it means living in a shit hole so be it, What. Ever. It. Takes.
But the tougher way is surely the man who lives like a king and stands atop a pile o' bodies
..Though again, what good is finishing the game if everyone died to get there, heh.
I'm just on my second play through atm , first was randy random, rough, now cassandra classic rough, having fun, next play through, ice sheet.
Great game, any way you play it :)
Interesting read :)
Quote from: 5thHorseman on September 13, 2018, 06:11:41 PM
Not at all. But if you play that way AND min-max it to win AND complain that you have to in order to survive then yes, that's weird to me. I'm not saying YOU're doing that, but I've seen it, a lot.
I can't stress that my problem isn't with it being done. I even enjoy the mental puzzling-it-out aspect my own self even if I won't put the work into putting it into practice. My problem is the complaint that you can't win at the high levels without doing it. Well, of COURSE you can't. That's what those levels are FOR. If you can win at the highest level without gaming every single system and maybe still losing then the highest level needs to be made harder.
It's not complaint, it's what makes game interesting to me. It means that without playing on maximum possible difficulty the game will not engage me enough to play it.
Wealth mechanic is main mechanic of the game so even if you don't plan to play merciless NB without good events, understanding how it works will be helpful. That's the purpose of this thread.
Quote from: bbqftw on September 13, 2018, 06:25:30 PM
To be fair, its not the only way to win this scenario. I've seen high wealth victories from NB opener, with high death counts, as opposed to the conservative style advocated here.
That said almost invariably there are a lot of tactics used in those runs that people would find distasteful too (things that make the AI look moronic, abusing specific movement patterns). But its not like there are 'fair' solutions to a lot of the quadratically wealth scaled threats the game throws at you in merciless.
So you find things like "how to kill 25 elephants with one pawn without risk of structure or pawn damage".
I actually would very much like to see how to kill 25 elephants in b19 (if you actually know some method and was not using figure of speech).
Regarding high-wealth strategies, it's definetly possible. You have to increase your wealth substantially towards end-game anyway. And if you plan your colony properly you can withstand huge raids. But you increase chance that you would be overrun.
Also the most interesting part of the game is early-mid game, when you are don't have anything and should try to beat all threats alone without drops or random wanderer join. No room for mistake - it's so cool.
Quote from: Electroid on September 13, 2018, 06:44:03 PM
I find it so weird where people will try to min-max playing on the hardest difficulty just to have the game play like it was on a lower difficulty.
I mean Sacrificing a pawn once a year to reduce raid sizes.
remove all your flooring.
damage all your equipment to below 30%.
it feels so weird. Just play the game, accept that it will get more difficult over time, accept that you will eventually lose pawns.
It's not the same at all, actually. For me it's art of doing only what really needed to be done and in right order. That process is more beautiful than building big and shiny colony on lesser difficulties. If you can easily build colony you want - it loses more than half of interest (at least for me).
And why should I accept that I will lose pawns? If I mastered game mechanics why shouldn't put this knowledge to use and don't lose anyone? My last run on mercilles NB without good events (B18) I didn't lost any pawn whole game. And even took all bonded animals with me on the ship.
Quote from: Bobisme on September 13, 2018, 08:05:24 PM
It makes sense that you stay inconspicuous, live under the radar, your job is to gtfo of there, if it means living in a shit hole so be it, What. Ever. It. Takes.
But the tougher way is surely the man who lives like a king and stands atop a pile o' bodies
..Though again, what good is finishing the game if everyone died to get there, heh.
My interest is so that nobody dies. And I play on merciless NB with no good events, so there is plenty of challenge. But that what makes game fun in my view. Other mods of playing just seem too easy to be interesting. But again I completely understand casual approach, it's just that my hardcore heart don't seems to be interested in it.
What a hell? I just discovered that health now don't affect weapons accuracy and armor protection. So you can have 10% hp weapon and armor and be just as good as having 100% hp weapon and armor.
I think that's a very bad change. Interesting why Tynan did that.
Quote from: BLACK_FR on September 14, 2018, 08:58:28 AM
What a hell? I just discovered that health now don't affect weapons accuracy and armor protection. So you can have 10% hp weapon and armor and be just as good as having 100% hp weapon and armor.
I think that's a very bad change. Interesting why Tynan did that.
To be fair though it makes more sense. An old battered AR-15 is still going to shoot the same bullet as a brand new one. It just might jam or flat out critically fail on firing.
Quote from: Nafensoriel on September 14, 2018, 10:45:45 AM
Quote from: BLACK_FR on September 14, 2018, 08:58:28 AM
What a hell? I just discovered that health now don't affect weapons accuracy and armor protection. So you can have 10% hp weapon and armor and be just as good as having 100% hp weapon and armor.
I think that's a very bad change. Interesting why Tynan did that.
To be fair though it makes more sense. An old battered AR-15 is still going to shoot the same bullet as a brand new one. It just might jam or flat out critically fail on firing.
No it doesn't. First of all it greatly upsets balance. Now you don't need to keep your weapons health. Secondly, health in Rimworld represents damage to item. So 10% hp AR-15 is like bended beaten thing. In B18 that thing would fire with less accuracy. I don't see a reason why it's make less sense than firing as good as new.
Quote from: BLACK_FR on September 14, 2018, 11:07:24 AM
Quote from: Nafensoriel on September 14, 2018, 10:45:45 AM
Quote from: BLACK_FR on September 14, 2018, 08:58:28 AM
What a hell? I just discovered that health now don't affect weapons accuracy and armor protection. So you can have 10% hp weapon and armor and be just as good as having 100% hp weapon and armor.
I think that's a very bad change. Interesting why Tynan did that.
To be fair though it makes more sense. An old battered AR-15 is still going to shoot the same bullet as a brand new one. It just might jam or flat out critically fail on firing.
No it doesn't. First of all it greatly upsets balance. Now you don't need to keep your weapons health. Secondly, health in Rimworld represents damage to item. So 10% hp AR-15 is like bended beaten thing. In B18 that thing would fire with less accuracy. I don't see a reason why it's make less sense than firing as good as new.
I repeat. A 5.56 round is a 5.56 round. It doesn't matter if the barrels bent or not the damn things going to expend its energy
somewhere the moment that primer fires. The "health" of the gun only equates to its
capacity to function. A bent barrel doesn't exclude the weapon from throwing a round lethally at a target. It does alter its accuracy and safety, however.
It makes logical sense to remove weapon damage from health... even for balance. There does have to be a "cost" to a poor gun unless the meta is being shifted that "health" is "functional health" not "total health". IE the period of time when no maintenance is needed for proper operation. Though I honestly haven't toyed with B19/1.0 enough to know if there are new systems like jams in place.
In previous system health affected accuracy and didn't affect damage. Are you sure new system where condition of weapon doesn't affect it's accuracy makes more sense?
I don't imagine that realism is the goal here. If you want realism, you'd have to handle sharp melee, blunt melee, bows, and firearms differently, and obviously there's no realistic answer to worn-out sci-fi weapons. I'd assume it's to make weapon management more accessible, so you don't need to check the individual stats on weapons when deciding what to equip, possibly with a spreadsheet open on the side. That's fine with me, but I'm a more casual player than some. I can definitely understand the desire for a more detailed system, which would also be fine with me.
If I were doing it with realism as the goal, I'd probably set sharp to do more damage but lose penetration, leave blunt unchanged, have bows lose accuracy and damage, and make firearms have a chance to not fire equal to the damage%. Sci-fi weapons I'd make explode at the damage% rate, mostly because I'm a jerk.
@black_fr
Accuracy even if going for hyper-realism would be a straight up "it depends" so I personally find it a poor metric. Ideally, a weapon's condition should alter its ability to consistantly discharge. Let's face it beyond the barrel the parts of a weapon which are most likely going to fail do not significantly alter the weapons ability to shoot straight. They might alter your ability to handle the weapon or sight properly, however. Both of these could infer accuracy penalties to the user's skill and make far more immersive sense as they would be a critical failure, not an assured condition. I'd rather a weapon's condition equate to a jam or, in a poorly made low health weapon, a straight up catastrophic failure... A REASON to use better weapons without penalizing the story aspect of accepting a risk in a last-ditch defence using pipe guns. A pipe gun firing a 7.62 WILL kill.. and if you can rifle the sucker it will be surprisingly accurate as well. It also damn well might kill the user. THAT is a good story to see over "poor gun misses a bunch" and it wouldn't be too terribly inefficient to code.
@drewski
This is personal opinion but sci-fi has to go one of two ways. It either goes 10% real and 90% absurd or 90% real and 10% absurd.(starwars vs startrek)
In rimworlds case, we already have enough simulated realism in food, sleep, location-specific wounds, wounds that alter a pawns health semi-realistically, etc to fall more to the latter of the two spectrums.
To give an example of both in context:
10% real: A raygun shoots hardlight lasers powered by a quantum tunnel to the heart of a star.
90% real: A railgun shoots a 5mm dart using a microfission pack.
Both qualify as sci-fi and both have their place. A good absurd scifi is just as good as a "hard sci-fi" when told well.
Since rimworlds main selling point is the story maintaining the illusion of realism helps to humanize your pawns and invest player interest in them... That's why when Tynan hears a story about someone having to dig up their dead for food to survive the winter it makes him happy. Not because of the morbidity of the story but because the player sitting behind that session had to invest themselves enough in the product to choose to engage in that kind of action.. and that the game provided a means.
In short, it doesn't matter if the 10% absurd is "sharp, blunt, etc" provided the means to reach those calculations is seated in a manner which drags the user into not giving a crap about why they are absurd. Ideally, a weapon's quality should alter the pawn and not itself. A garbage gun in a sharpshooters hands will perform better.. but that weird cribbed on bolt on the stock is still going to make it darned uncomfortable(-15mood 30min upon firing) to fire for anyone. It would also open mod options and simplify some calculations...
@Nafensoriel
I'm more concerned about balance than about realism. I think current wealth system is kinda bad. I'm going to win this game with only starting pawn on merciless naked brutality with all good events disabled. There is no need to consider base design. Just execute wealth control, relax and watch seasons pass by without hard challenge.
I would like that on highest difficulties you would need micro-managing and squeeze every advantage you get. I needed it in the start. But when I made all basic stuff I can just chill like on peaceful difficulty. I prognose that only challenge would be 15 days after launching a ship. But if there are no challenges in period before you research electricity and moment you start ship - then you know that it's something wrong with current balance.
B18 was harder in that regard because time was the issue.