So hey, does deterioration no longer effect weapon and armor stats? (aside from market value)
I have to say, I really miss that mechanic of the game. It was a nice touch of realism that really kept me on my toes keeping all my equipment new and well taken care of. It was also great for story building. I really hope it gets reimplemented.
No it does not, and I think it's sad too.
There's an argument that quality of gun doesn't actually affect accuracy but I don't really care if it's realistic so long as it makes things interesting. Maybe they could still shoot fine but jam a lot or take longer to reload, I don't know, but I totally agree with you a 5% hp gun should be in some way worse than a 100% hp gun. Ideally, it should be 95% worse :)
I proposed changes here - https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=45723.0 and made a discussion about it here - https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=45664.0
In short - health should affect efficiency for most of the items. And for those items where it's stupid it shouldn't affect wealth.
This was removed? Why would Tynan do that? A worn out thing should be worn out. A rusty and abused masterwork sword should be arguably worse than a brand new normal one and old guns should jam and if a vest has a bullet hole well there's always the chance that a bullet will again find that hole. :/
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.
I know it was never a major mechanic but I feel like a disproportionate level of immersion has been lost to its removal. There's not the same sense of urgency to get a masterwork shotgun out of a fire, and no repercussions for leaving it in the rain.
If I could make any change it would be that the deterioration to effect ratio doesn't necessarily need to be linear, but I'd take it back in any form.
I've been playing as if hp mattered on guns ... if I knew about this, I could reduce colony wealth considerably and maintain firepower simultaneously.
Seconded. I'd been replacing armor once it got close to 50%: that's expensive when you're wearing Power Armor!
This also gave a good incentive for players to make their own guns, rather than using looted weaponry from raiders: IIRC, most early-game raiders came with weapons in the 30-50% range, and it took quite a bit of time before a player could loot a 100% condition weapon which wasn't absolutely terrible.
So true. Some guy in suggestion section said that fixing (making good) wealth and raid systems is not a priority. I think that those mechanics are cruical for reasons above. Current system is not only not balanced but is also not fun.
Surely the easy solution is to get rid of the mechanic entirely and have damage effect the quality of the item (leave a masterwork shotgun in the rain for a week and it is no longer a masterwork). That would then automatically pick up on the quality bonus system.
I think it should just go back to how it was. That means raiders with bad gear are worse than a prepared outpost, too, which makes sense.
This change was news to me also, and I'm guessing the change had something to do with raid balance.
Quote from: mebe on September 27, 2018, 03:13:39 AM
Surely the easy solution is to get rid of the mechanic entirely and have damage effect the quality of the item (leave a masterwork shotgun in the rain for a week and it is no longer a masterwork). That would then automatically pick up on the quality bonus system.
This makes sense to me as a solution. To simplify the quality of raider weapons I would have them start with always 100% durability, and then have a chance at poor craftsmanship. Come to think of it, raiders may already start with 100% weapon durability, don't remember off the top of my head. I've seen both perfect weapons and some damaged on dead/downed raiders, not sure if they came in with worn out weapons or not.
Anyhow, I hope this particular mechanic can be looked at again before full release!
I'd love it if the entire "tainted" system vanished and whenever anybody died, everything they were carrying lost 50% (or so) hit points, coupled with this idea that number of hit points actually matter.
Quote from: 5thHorseman on September 27, 2018, 05:15:47 PM
I'd love it if the entire "tainted" system vanished and whenever anybody died, everything they were carrying lost 50% (or so) hit points, coupled with this idea that number of hit points actually matter.
Agreed. Although I think it should just applied to worn apparel, not their inventory. After all, whatever they were wearing probably got a bunch of bullet holes in it (or torn up or blood on it or maybe the pawn simply peed himself...)
Quote from: rkagerer on September 28, 2018, 04:42:59 AM
Quote from: 5thHorseman on September 27, 2018, 05:15:47 PM
I'd love it if the entire "tainted" system vanished and whenever anybody died, everything they were carrying lost 50% (or so) hit points, coupled with this idea that number of hit points actually matter.
Agreed. Although I think it should just applied to worn apparel, not their inventory. After all, whatever they were wearing probably got a bunch of bullet holes in it (or torn up or blood on it or maybe the pawn simply peed himself...)
Oh I didn't think of inventory, but yeah sure. Though I think armed weapons should also take a hit.
Quote from: rkagerer on September 28, 2018, 04:42:59 AM
Quote from: 5thHorseman on September 27, 2018, 05:15:47 PM
I'd love it if the entire "tainted" system vanished and whenever anybody died, everything they were carrying lost 50% (or so) hit points, coupled with this idea that number of hit points actually matter.
Agreed. Although I think it should just applied to worn apparel, not their inventory. After all, whatever they were wearing probably got a bunch of bullet holes in it (or torn up or blood on it or maybe the pawn simply peed himself...)
How about losing the hit points when receiving the bullets then, instead of when dying? Clothing could lose quality proportionally to the wound severity and armor status. That way, the clothes from a downed pawn just about to die would be as useless as a dead one's, removing the "strip the guy before he dies" trick.
Quote from: Dukkha on September 26, 2018, 01:36:07 AM
So hey, does deterioration no longer effect weapon and armor stats? (aside from market value)
I have to say, I really miss that mechanic of the game. It was a nice touch of realism that really kept me on my toes keeping all my equipment new and well taken care of. It was also great for story building. I really hope it gets reimplemented.
Realistic, yes, but a mechanic that was horribly abused and cheesed countless times by people that just want to win by cheating and exploiting lol. Exploiting those kind of mechanics is essentially the same as straight up using a mod to cheat. The only way it would be viable is if weapons did far less damage with lower durability, and armor had less armor.
Wow, this is really really bad. Why the need to change this? It seems so..stupid.
QuoteRealistic, yes, but a mechanic that was horribly abused and cheesed countless times by people that just want to win by cheating and exploiting lol. Exploiting those kind of mechanics is essentially the same as straight up using a mod to cheat. The only way it would be viable is if weapons did far less damage with lower durability, and armor had less armor.
It is not anywhere near the same as a mod. A mod is actually changing the game. This is simply exploiting game mechanics, "min-maxing". Players who min-max can reveal strategies that are ... strangely ... lucrative and result in poor balance, so it's good that some people play that way.
I was expecting 1.0 to enrich the game, and this is quite the opposite. I hope Tynan will come up with a better solution, it would be a big mistake to cut that feature/mechanic like this.
Quote from: vzoxz0 on September 29, 2018, 10:41:08 AM
QuoteRealistic, yes, but a mechanic that was horribly abused and cheesed countless times by people that just want to win by cheating and exploiting lol. Exploiting those kind of mechanics is essentially the same as straight up using a mod to cheat. The only way it would be viable is if weapons did far less damage with lower durability, and armor had less armor.
It is not anywhere near the same as a mod. A mod is actually changing the game. This is simply exploiting game mechanics, "min-maxing". Players who min-max can reveal strategies that are ... strangely ... lucrative and result in poor balance, so it's good that some people play that way.
I misspoke when I said modding lol. I meant like typing in codes to cheat like older games had. Like "showmethemoney", "big daddy", all those famous old ones from star craft and age of empires lol.
And I would maybe argue against that being min-maxing. Min-maxing is building efficiently within the rules. While that was technically part of the game, it was still exploiting a flaw that Tynan obviously didn't want in the game, as he removed it to prevent people from constantly doing that to game the wealth system. I mean it's horribly Un fun too, taking so much time to decay items to artificially decrease raid strength.
you talk about exploiting the AI with cheap killbox esque designs and you say other people are cheating, whatever makes you feel better I guess.
I still maintain that there's still some challenge, I took one hit during the reactor sequence instead of zero!! about 1/200 chance of brain damage is very spooky.
anyways if this change is reverted, its simply back to what was originally the correct plan, which was burning all masterwork+ weapons and other equipment you accidentally create, since in practically no case is this worth the extra wealth imposition.
I misspoke when I said modding lol. I meant like typing in codes to cheat like older games had. Like "showmethemoney", "big daddy", all those famous old ones from star craft and age of empires lol.
And I would maybe argue against that being min-maxing. Min-maxing is building efficiently within the rules. While that was technically part of the game, it was still exploiting a flaw that
QuoteTynan obviously didn't want in the game, as he removed it to prevent people from constantly doing that to game the wealth system. I mean it's horribly Un fun too, taking so much time to decay items to artificially decrease raid strength.
If it were a cheat, it would be intentional, so no, they are still very different. It is min-maxing. You are trading longevity/risk of a building being broken for lower overall value of the colony.
It might be interesting to simply reduce the value-modifier that lower quality has on something. Make sure the lower limit of value is something like a third? Then there'd be incentive to trade half-broken loot more often, and keep colony values higher on average due to the benefits it provides.
Quote from: Scavenger on September 29, 2018, 06:35:04 AM
Realistic, yes, but a mechanic that was horribly abused and cheesed countless times by people that just want to win by cheating and exploiting lol. Exploiting those kind of mechanics is essentially the same as straight up using a mod to cheat. The only way it would be viable is if weapons did far less damage with lower durability, and armor had less armor.
That comment is strange. Previous mechanic (in B18) of health/utility of weapons and apparel was actually good and balanced (and it COULDN'T be used for for any exploits, you are wrong it this statement). NEW mechanic is unbalanced and can be taken advantage of. So new mechanic is both less realistic and has a worse balance.
Also this is
very strange attitude for mechanics of the game. How is that can be that mechanic works as intended (and devs put some thought into how it should work), but using is the same as cheating? The only distinction in this game betweeng good and bad players is that good players know how mechanics of the game work and playing accordingly. So your attitude is that playing good is cheating. I guess you one of the casual players?
If by casual you mean he probably uses thirty six mods, then I would guess yes.
Quote from: ertxyz on September 28, 2018, 09:03:20 AM
How about losing the hit points when receiving the bullets then, instead of when dying? Clothing could lose quality proportionally to the wound severity and armor status. That way, the clothes from a downed pawn just about to die would be as useless as a dead one's, removing the "strip the guy before he dies" trick.
Could work. That also has the realism benefit of clothing staying pristine if you kill people in exotic ways (e.g. heating / freezing to death). But on the flip side it would introduce a bit more micro-management in having to refit people after each battle (pawns don't automatically change clothes when their stuff gets tattered, do they?).
To the larger discussion in this thread... One thing I don't mind about the binary nature of the current degradation mechanic is the reduction in micromanagement. e.g. At first I assumed corn had to be collected immediately and any degradation would reduce the nutritional value (and similarly that you'd get less meat from degraded corpses). So I was always in a rush to get everything indoors immediately, resulting in too much hauling micro-management making the game less fun (as I fought with my pawns - "No, pawn, stop over-harvesting! Haul what you already harvested first!". When I realized it doesn't matter if you bring it in at 10%, I felt a lot more flexibility and the game became much more fun. (I'd be OK if there was one "yellow" timer bar to when degradation begins, and then after that a red one for while it's occurring.)
Quote from: vzoxz0 on September 30, 2018, 10:59:30 AM
If by casual you mean he probably uses thirty six mods, then I would guess yes.
By casual I mean "bad player". But word "bad" have negative connotations that I wanted to avoid, because being bad player in this game is not the worst thing in the world. But being bad player and calling good play "cheating"... That is another story)
@rkagerer
But if you wait before hauling harvested crop it's
cheating as some of the players here say. You see, in doing that you reduce wealth of your colony without losing any utility of your items.
During a recent reactor sequence with 14 pawns (20 raids, 15+ humanoid), the enemies combined dropped like 100k+ worth of weapons and gear. What is most offensive is sieges, these things drop like 500 steel and a bunch of psms, really rude, you have to go to the edge of the map and haul it. So is burning their stuff cheating? If I left the stuff alone my raid size would double from all the clothing (even tainted, 400+ corpses worth of stuff adds up) and dropped weapons. I am unsure of the rulebook!
I wish you could fine enemies for littering, let them live in exchange for picking up their dead comrades stuff off the map.
Quote from: bbqftw on September 30, 2018, 07:12:37 PM
During a recent reactor sequence with 14 pawns (20 raids, 15+ humanoid), the enemies combined dropped like 100k+ worth of weapons and gear. What is most offensive is sieges, these things drop like 500 steel and a bunch of psms, really rude, you have to go to the edge of the map and haul it. So is burning their stuff cheating? If I left the stuff alone my raid size would double from all the clothing (even tainted, 400+ corpses worth of stuff adds up) and dropped weapons. I am unsure of the rulebook!
Definitely cheating! You see, all actions that make your game easier that Scavenger won't do is cheating (be Scavenger's definition). If you don't want to be a cheater you have to ask him what you are allowed to do.
Or alternatively you can use all mechanics you want apart from exploits confirmed by Tynan and point out all weaknesses in balance that you see, ideally suggesting how they should be fixed (my idea of how it should work).
So nothing has been done for this? It literally killed my hype to play 1.0. I really don't understand why to strip off the game of a basic feature like this.
So I've been playing B19, haven't even upgraded to 1.0 yet... and I see the same thing. I have an enemy short bow lying on the ground from a raid that I haven't bothered to clean up yet. Its quality is poor 46%, but only the poor affects the accuracy. The 46% doesn't do anything???!!!
Should I go back to playing B18 until this gets fixed?
I don't think they will change it back.
Much worser from my side at 1.0 are, all my wood and componets are gone after a season under the roof.
Looks like you need to build shelfs or storage rooms before you build sleeping rooms.
I know that you need walls in B19 to keep stuff from deteriorating, but that doesn't seem like a major change; I always felt like it was a cheat in B18 and prior to just put a roof up and leave things exposed to the outside. Has 1.0 done anything differently from B19 in this regard?
Nope, in B19 and 1.0 no health affect utility of anything, but it affect wealth. So it's good idea to change your new normal rifle for 10% normal rifle that was dropped by a raider.
I think that this change is bad and I created mod request for balance changes but there were no replies yet (I'm ready to provide all necessary numbers).
I miss it as well! Not only was it realistic, but it stopped ppl from trying to cheese the colony wealth by letting items deteriorate...
Could somebody make a mod for it?
It also takes away from the crafting system... You get so many guns from raids, and now that they are all full accuracy, AND damaged for colony wealth, just use them a lot of the time.
Quote from: Shurp on October 21, 2018, 12:16:00 PM
I always felt like it was a cheat in B18 and prior to just put a roof up and leave things exposed to the outside.
I think this should depend on the item. Wood or hay for example should be ok just with a roof.
Quote from: Serenity on October 21, 2018, 01:37:36 PM
Quote from: Shurp on October 21, 2018, 12:16:00 PM
I always felt like it was a cheat in B18 and prior to just put a roof up and leave things exposed to the outside.
I think this should depend on the item. Wood or hay for example should be ok just with a roof.
I, too, see it as a cheap cheat lol.
And I agree some things should be ok with just a roof. Primarily the wood and hay he mentioned.
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=45867
I can provide all necessary numbers if someone can implement them. There so many mods but none that improve balance as far as I know.
you might look at greep, who made an interesting concept that purely scales raids with time:
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=43044.0
in such a case, you then are incentivized to go all out with efficiency, without any of this wealth gaming stuff
Great advice, he certainly think in the right direction.
But I *like* my rubber band!
Anyway, I just recalled another reason to go back to B18 -- armor worked back then too.
So deterioration and armor are reasons to go back to B18, while pathfinding and raider AI could be reasons to stay with B19. What are the other major changes between the two? If I stick with B18 is there something significant I'll be missing out on?
Quote from: Shurp on October 21, 2018, 05:26:00 PM
If I stick with B18 is there something significant I'll be missing out on?
Better caravans (visiting)
Better caravans (sending)
I'm not sure when the 15-day timer on the ship was introduced, but if you lose that I consider it pretty big.
Mod updates and any new mods.
Can't think of any more offhand right now.
One big problem is I played an older version - I think .16 - then quit for a year or so and came back with .19. So I don't know first hand what changes came when.
Quote from: 5thHorseman on October 21, 2018, 06:20:44 PM
Mod updates and any new mods.
Yeah, that was the one that had me most concerned. Well, I'm enjoying vanilla right now, so I think I'll stick with that on B18 for a while... when I get tired of it and want to play with mods again I'll upgrade.
Quote from: 5thHorseman on September 26, 2018, 01:42:12 AM
No it does not, and I think it's sad too.
There's an argument that quality of gun doesn't actually affect accuracy but I don't really care if it's realistic so long as it makes things interesting. Maybe they could still shoot fine but jam a lot or take longer to reload, I don't know, but I totally agree with you a 5% hp gun should be in some way worse than a 100% hp gun. Ideally, it should be 95% worse :)
It's non-trivial to fix. If you make gun durability matter, then raiders will either only have good durability weapons (trivializing the mechanic) or they will have poor durability weapons, giving players an advantage in fights where they don't micro to hit raiders without return fire. I'm not sure that's actually better in game terms.
@TheMeInTeam
You can make raiders stuff lose health when dropped. It's a bit of a hassle but alternative where new gun and 1% hp gun works the same is even worse.
I preferred the condition-determines-performance mechanic from before. I didn't realise it'd changed until seeing this thread. What's the point in maintaining an item's condition or replacing it once it deteriorates past a certain point, if the only effect it has is how long til it goes *poof* if left out in the elements, or left to burn? I couldn't care less about manipulating wealth vs raids, but now the item condition mechanic has close enough to zero bearing on the gameplay that it might as well not exist.
For weapons, I'd have preferred jamming to be a thing while the degree to which accuracy diminishes is minimised.
A problem with item deterioration (which I don't think anyone in this thread has addressed), is that the game doesn't have an item-repair mechanic. If guns (or clothing, or armor...) were affected by their condition, I would be annoyed with the inability to repair my things. It makes no sense in the context of the game-universe (where you can repair other things), it's not realistic (people restore old guns (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCZIgoqhqhM) all the time), and it would add tedious chores for me as a player (spend time micro-managing gun health on my pawns and warehouses). Clothing and armor have some tools to mitigate that last point (gear assignments, recurring bills to destroy old gear), but weapons do not; Either way, I would view it as silly, that my colonists on this harsh world are throwing out worn guns, rather than repairing them or salvaging component parts to repair other guns.
The current mechanics in the game aren't perfect, but they have a good balance between game difficulty, and pushing the player towards interestign behaviours or choices. For example, do I scrap this old rifle for steel, or keep using it so that I can sell the perfect-condition rifle to the next trader?)
Selling weapons is not an option because of 20% multiplier.
Regarding missing repair mechanic. I think it would be good if you could repair any item using some percentage of production cost and losing quality with every repair, I think it would be balanced and make game more fun.
Sadly, there is final release already. So it can be done only in mods. And modders very often take good idea and make very unbalanced implementation.
While we're on the subject of repairs, I'd like a system similar to that of Jagged Alliance 2 (Not sure if this is a 1.13 mod feature or not) - You can repair items, but damage and degradation it sustains can and often does reduce the max condition it can be repaired to. So a gun that's been used heavily over several in-game years (Rimworld) will never be able to reach back to 100% but it could've gone from 100, down to 70, back up to 99, down to 50, back up to 90 etc. But if you want a pristine gun, you're going to have to manufacture a new one.
You could get down to the nitty-gritty of tracking the condition of different major components and such and being able to replace them, but that would be too much detail for Rimworld unless you've got a mod that's really focused on the arms industry end of things.
Quote from: BLACK_FR on October 21, 2018, 12:59:43 PM
Nope, in B19 and 1.0 no health affect utility of anything, but it affect wealth. So it's good idea to change your new normal rifle for 10% normal rifle that was dropped by a raider.
I think that this change is bad and I created mod request for balance changes but there were no replies yet (I'm ready to provide all necessary numbers).
Quote from: Scavenger on October 21, 2018, 01:30:00 PM
It also takes away from the crafting system... You get so many guns from raids, and now that they are all full accuracy, AND damaged for colony wealth, just use them a lot of the time.
Exacly. It's not just bad, it's terrible. Why on earth would Tynan impoverish the gameplay this way for the final release is beyond me..
A mod to restore the old behavior would be very nice
May be they just forgot to implement some function? Or may be they implemented it but named it wrong and instead of intended function now work some plug? Or may be they can not decide what curve to use, and there is the deadline, so they just don't do it at all? Have some better explanations, guys? Or has someone officially explained things already?
Usually what happens in the gaming world is:
"Hey, I have an idea to improve this feature of the game. Let's try it."
"Oh crap, it's not working right."
"Oh crap, the original version doesn't work with other features we introduced."
"Oh crap, the deadline's right here. Quick, throw something together that's serviceable so we can release!"
I wonder what happened in between B18 "raiders can't shoot straight because their guns are garbage" and B19 "a rifle with a barrel bent at 90 degrees still shoots perfectly straight!"
Quote from: Serenity on October 22, 2018, 02:28:43 PM
A mod to restore the old behavior would be very nice
Ask, and ye shall receive.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1545917306
Quote from: Razzoriel on October 22, 2018, 11:20:50 PM
Quote from: Serenity on October 22, 2018, 02:28:43 PM
A mod to restore the old behavior would be very nice
Ask, and ye shall receive.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1545917306
Thank you!
Quote from: Razzoriel on October 22, 2018, 11:20:50 PM
Quote from: Serenity on October 22, 2018, 02:28:43 PM
A mod to restore the old behavior would be very nice
Ask, and ye shall receive.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1545917306
Hail to the Modders! Hail!