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RimWorld => General Discussion => Topic started by: Razzoriel on December 19, 2018, 12:02:53 PM

Title: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: Razzoriel on December 19, 2018, 12:02:53 PM
I'd like to separate the discussion to this topic, which started here: url]https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=47447.0[/url]

Let's think about the mechanics and the rational process behind attaching a bionic arm in your pawn. A bionic arm is the whole kit; it includes hand and fingers, though it is not separate. This poses a lot of issues.

1) A finger has 7 HP. A hand has 10 HP. The arm has 25 HP. If a lancer shoots the pawn's finger, the finger is removed. If an autopistol hits the pawn's hand, the hand stays, but loses HP. Theorically, this means separating the whole appendage in multiple parts means losing the whole arm is more difficult. With a bionic arm, all damage goes to the 25 HP of the appendage. A hit that would otherwise make your finger go 2/7 HP now puts the pawn's bionic arm in 20/25 HP. This means theorically a bionic arm is a total reduction in HP compared to the normal biological arm.

2) Bionics/archotech have no separate armor values. This is the "tank tortoise" effect, where the whole body of a pawn has armor, or none. So if you shoot that tortoise's eye with your bow, it can deflect, even if only the shell theorically has armor. This is a huge problem. A metallic appendage surely should be more resistant than the pawn's flesh.

3) The description of archotech limbs says they regenerate on their own. ALL ARTIFICIAL PARTS DO. The dentures regenerate. The peg legs regenerate. The wooden foots regenerate. As if they are biological. This is because to heal your damaged bionic, mechanical arm, you use the same medicine items you use to sew up a bullet hole in your stomach. They are not repaired. And they regenerate because they use the biological code.

4) With all this being said, I still think artificial organs make sense. And the fact artificial limbs do not have pain values is also a boon. However, it can also be a negative, as your masochist tough pawn is shredded alive and does not get a pain shock, and your wimp character has all his appendages intact.

So to summarize, armor values to specific body parts, medical repairs that require components or something to put together bionics/arcotech makes more sense than using medicine to make them slowly heal like their arms and finally, the need to make bionic/arcotech hands/fingers also come with the package are corrections that need to be taken.
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: Demoulius on December 20, 2018, 05:58:39 AM
Bionics not having an armor value does sound abit off  :o maybe its done for balance reasons? Because they are already better then their fleshy counterparts... For the HP issue, maybe they should have the same HP as the parts on a normal arm? Or also have individual parts just like a normal arm.
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: Canute on December 20, 2018, 06:12:18 AM
Why do you install bionic or better parts ?
I do that because i want replace some missing part or scar with them.
Or to enhance job specify stats on the pawn.
The part of lower overall HP isn't important for me, since when i can craft them at my own, i mosttime could made good clothes/armor to compensate that.

Your point 3. is allready a long discussed part, and suggested multiple times.
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: Chesssx on December 20, 2018, 11:10:49 PM
Bionic parts are most definitely worth it, I have never had a pawn lose a bionic part because by the time you can get the parts you already have a killbox to deal with any threats, and when you do have to send out a pawn they have high skills to deal with the threat before it deals with them.

While you do have a point with it being easier to lose, you can use mods like Questionable ethics to grow replacement body parts if an artificial part is lost. You can also use surgery mods to let you harvest those body parts from your prisoners.

Another option is to use power claws, which means that your pawn will most likely deal with the threat before their limbs are destroyed. (Assuming they have the proper gear).
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: Kirby23590 on December 21, 2018, 03:22:13 AM
Are Bionic Limbs and Archotech Limbs Worth It?

In Sort, Yes... Yes they are...

They are good for replacing Lost Limbs of your Colonists but also helps them out in Production or Defending the Colony... Like Bionic/Archotech Legs = Movement Speed = Faster Production from going one place to another.

The Bionic Arms or Archotech Limbs have no Armor since Balance reasons... Flak Armor or Power Armor would already cover your arms or those limbs already...

It Helps that you can Craft and Build Bionic Limbs in the Fabrication Table so you don't need to buy them from Traders... But Archotech i heard is much better than Bionic Limbs but you can build them and they super expensive from Traders. Bionic Limbs will be the go to way with everything unless you have like $80,000 Silver in your Storage...

Unfortunately Body Purists got a hit in Badness in Traits like they even hate Peg Legs and complain about it and go throw tantrums all around from it and will start fights will with people with more than with Artificial Limbs...
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: 5thHorseman on December 21, 2018, 06:36:24 AM
Quote from: Kirby23590 on December 21, 2018, 03:22:13 AM
Unfortunately Body Purists got a hit in Badness in Traits like they even hate Peg Legs and complain about it and go throw tantrums all around from it and will start fights will with people with more than with Artificial Limbs...

Yeah I had a body purist with one leg and no arms. I only kept him around because his wife was the best pawn in the colony. When she died, I banished him that very day. Took his armor and gun, too. Didn't feel one bit bad about it.
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: AileTheAlien on December 21, 2018, 09:16:48 AM
I would have just organ-murdered him, and got his wife hopped up on goofballs until she got over hsi death. :)
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: Kirby23590 on December 21, 2018, 09:38:14 AM
Quote from: AileTheAlien on December 21, 2018, 09:16:48 AM
I would have just organ-murdered him, and got his wife hopped up on goofballs until she got over hsi death. :)
Unless your Colony is made of Psychopaths.. They don't give a Muffalos' Butt about it...

The Non-Psychopaths might throw repeated tantrums and Berserk rages from Organ Murders... BTW... Just Sayin'... ;)
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: Demoulius on December 21, 2018, 06:54:12 PM
Quote from: 5thHorseman on December 21, 2018, 06:36:24 AM
Quote from: Kirby23590 on December 21, 2018, 03:22:13 AM
Unfortunately Body Purists got a hit in Badness in Traits like they even hate Peg Legs and complain about it and go throw tantrums all around from it and will start fights will with people with more than with Artificial Limbs...

Yeah I had a body purist with one leg and no arms. I only kept him around because his wife was the best pawn in the colony. When she died, I banished him that very day. Took his armor and gun, too. Didn't feel one bit bad about it.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/D4rYT63c0Enja/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: Shurp on December 27, 2018, 08:49:39 PM
So  I just had a look at the value of a bionic leg... $1,030 each, for only a 12.5% increase in speed.  Which means if I replace both legs I double the value of my pawn for only a 25% increase in speed.  I... can't justify that.  25% is barely enough to shoot and scoot.

Even the original at 20% wasn't that great; why was this nerfed?

------------------ Edit

Worse, I can't figure out how to *un*nerf it.  Where are efficiencies of replacement body parts set?  There's nothing in Items_BodyParts.xml.  I can't believe this would be hard coded.  It seems like all spacer tech items now have "125%" efficiency, so I imagine it's defined wherever the tech levels are defined.  But where is that?

----------- Edit

Disregard, the friendly folks over on the Mod board solved my problem.  Bionic attributes are off in HediffDefs.  This doesn't explain why it's nerfed, but it will be easy enough for me to fix!
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: antibodee on December 28, 2018, 04:02:04 PM
I have trouble understanding the value differences between archotech and standard bionics.  One is efficiency, and the other is specific traits.
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: Merudo on January 06, 2019, 11:04:36 AM
Quote from: Shurp on December 27, 2018, 08:49:39 PM
So  I just had a look at the value of a bionic leg... $1,030 each, for only a 12.5% increase in speed.  Which means if I replace both legs I double the value of my pawn for only a 25% increase in speed.  I... can't justify that.  25% is barely enough to shoot and scoot.

I think Bionics are mainly intended as replacement for damaged/missing body parts, and not for increasing pawn effectiveness over a healthy part.
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: Canute on January 06, 2019, 11:07:25 AM
You know 100 people 101 opinions ! :-)
I think Bionic's are for enhancement's that they replace a missing part is bonus.
I want my crafter with 2 bionic/archotech arms so they craft faster.
Hauler/mellee with 2 legs for faster movement/intercept.
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: Kirby23590 on January 06, 2019, 08:39:23 PM
Yea i do kinda make these bionic parts in the Fabrication bench even though it's costly, only if i loose a limb for one my favorite colonists or one of my main fighters or best workers in the colony...

Getting Archotech limbs is just a bonus and not might be worth it since they are expensive... But if you do get one for free i would recommend replacing a missing limb or giving it one of your main fighters who could use that movement speed bonus for running and walking around in the colony it also has a nice effect with go-juice making them run fast as well...

Bionic Parts like Spines or Hearts are more of situational like replacing a spine with someone with Badback or a missing or broken spine.

Bionic Hearts i don't know if they would help stop preventing or lowering the chance of another Heart attack of one of your colonists if they had one before... The Bonus of the Bionic is good though... ;)

As always Body Purists are just sad... They complain about peg legs only they saw was a banishment from their home, and a man running with an charge rifle with bionic parts to kill them before they leave...
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: bbqftw on January 06, 2019, 11:40:18 PM
archotech - almost never

bionics to replace pawn destroyed part - depends on how good the pawn is, otherwise exile

bionics to replace healthy part - leg is realistically the only one I'd consider doing this with.
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: Merudo on January 08, 2019, 12:11:31 PM
Quote from: Kirby23590 on January 06, 2019, 08:39:23 PM
As always Body Purists are just sad... They complain about peg legs only they saw was a banishment from their home, and a man running with an charge rifle with bionic parts to kill them before they leave...

I do think that's a bit silly. I personally would change it so that Body Purists are not bothered by such "primitive" body aids, and similarly so that Transhumanists do not get the mood buff from replacing their perfectly healthy leg by a peg leg.
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: giannikampa on January 11, 2019, 02:22:47 PM
bionic ears seems to do nothing at all since earing is not involved in anything. bionic stomac gives metabolism..but..does this count? i can't see where
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: AileTheAlien on January 11, 2019, 05:47:23 PM
Quote from: Kirby23590 on December 21, 2018, 09:38:14 AM
Unless your Colony is made of Psychopaths.
Cannibals, psychopaths, and ascetics are all easy-mode.
Title: Re: Are bionics/archotech limbs worth it?
Post by: 5thHorseman on January 11, 2019, 06:14:43 PM
Quote from: giannikampa on January 11, 2019, 02:22:47 PM
bionic ears seems to do nothing at all since earing is not involved in anything. bionic stomac gives metabolism..but..does this count? i can't see where
Bad hearing hurts negotiation. No clue how much, I just note that the game tells me it does. Also no clue how much good hearing helps, if at all. But yeah, it's probably not worth it even for cochlear implants.