Ludeon Forums

I hear a lot of complains. Some with merit, others without.
But it feels like this update and DLC messed so many mods and playtroughs, without actually adding anything of actual worth (the perormance improvements being the only thing of interest).

People complained that the game, despite is age, is never on sale or discount, and that this DLC is overpriced. I feel they are somewhat right.

People complained that the game is unfinished, and frankly..it kinda feels like it. There are so many holes in the game that I cannot imagine ever playing without 100+ mods, simply for all the QoL improvements and adding missing content. What is missing, you may ask?

The tech advancement seems to skip and jump all over the place. The early game lacks content. You go from tribal to industrial. So much more research could be added, more stages and research could be better gated (you much have X number of medieval tech researched before you can unlock industrial) Something like royalty would have been good for medieval content, instead we get psychic space emperors content that feels off.

I would have been 1000 times happier if Ty either copied or simply directly implemented content from some of the best mods.
You jump from pack animal caravans (which you cannot even ride) to starships. Nothing in between. No boats or coastal cities/trade. No trucks (which would be good on roads and flat plains, but terrible/incapable in swams, mountains, etc..), blimps/zeppelins, aircraft of any kind.
Interaction between factions is primitive and beyond bare-bones. Raids magically appear at your doorstep. Etc, etc..
And lets not forget the attrocious mod loading system, where you have to wait for the game to load all of the mods BEFORE you can actually set up mod load order.. instead of having mod selector/load order as the first thing to start


Mods/ideas that should be part of the core game (at least some parts/aspects of them):
Medieval
Giddy up
Boats
SMRT (whatever the mod name with shuttles is)
Any of the surgery improvement mods (default mechanics are trash)
CE (just the ranged combat aiming part)
Death rattle
Autopsy
Prison labor/Simple slavery
More faction interaction
Preemptive strike
Vein Miner (seriously, how is this NOT part of core???)
Duel weield/Simple Sidearms/Run and Gun
Hospitality
Psychology
Mending
Dubs Hygene
etc...

I could put up a long list. And I know people might accuse Ty of "stealing" ideas if he does that. First, ideas cannot be stolen or owned, not something so vauge as "let's add vehicles to the game"
Second, I don't give a crap. I just want a functional game that doesn't feel like half the content is missing.

But suppose you want something new mechanically.
How about gear prerequisites - like for example, a minigun either not being equippable or suffering massive penalties if a pawn doesn't have power armor (apparel with power armor tag, so that modded power armor would work easily).
More damage types? Freeze guns?
Pawn attributes (like a RPG, strength, agility, endurance, toughness, etc..) that interact with skills and are hard to change. You many have great knowledge of mining, but a weak body.

Anyway, long rant, bottom point is... I'm dissapointed that after this long, nothing of real value (to me and many others at least) has been added.

1000+ mods made by 1000+ people should not be the litmus test for whether Ludeon should consider a DLC. That's ridiculous. Ludeon is a small team who worked on Royalty for 16 months.

You might as well asked why Rimworld doesn't have infinite resources and infinite manpower.

QuoteBut it feels like this update and DLC messed so many mods and playtroughs, without actually adding anything of actual worth (the perormance improvements being the only thing of interest).

This isn't a bad thing at the second view.
Sure it takes time until the modder update the mods.
But this seperate the "good" mods from the "bad" ones.
Many mod's didn't got updated since 1.0 came out and making more trouble then the content is worth it.
And many people just subscribe/activate mod's without looking at the consequence.
So 1.1 mod's got developed at last from an active modder and he mosttime try to eliminate errors/conflicts.

"I cannot imagine ever playing without 100+ mods, simply for all the QoL improvements and adding missing content"

A content is not "missing" from the main game just because you got used to playing with mods and can't do without them now.
Missing implies it was there before and then it got removed, which is not the case.

By your logic, the Sims 4 and CK2 are unfinished too because, well, I sure as hell am not playing them without mods either. Every other game does what Rimworld has done, except there the players+modders don't even have the advantage of the dev team giving them a heads up.

Mind you, I don't take issue with your generally thinking the main game + DLC could have more value added to them to justify their price. It's your money and your game experience. Plus you do raise good points about game balance. I'm just a bit tired of hearing complaints about broken saves+mods when those aren't the dev team's problem, really.

"Am I the only one who's dissapointed?"

Maybe?  I'm not disappointed at all.  DLC was pretty freaking good so far.  Significantly more action on a tribal start.  Constant stream of fresh, overlapping quests, mechanoids raining down from the sky on my dining room table before I even learned to cut rocks.  And it looks like it branches out into Make The Noble Happy (if you pick one as your noble), Psychic Equality (if you spread it out), or Open Rebellion (if you pick up certain quests or attack), so I'm looking forward to quite a bit of replayability from it. 

It should certainly have included more content that's suitable for every playstyle. But it appears that with the exception of the mechanoids and stealing tech you have play a royal to get access to the new stuff. That's bad. New quests and such should be there for everyone to enjoy.
I understand why it was implemented that way. Lots of DLCs do that. They implement separate systems because that it makes the game easier to maintain. The developers don't have to support two systems that do the same thing. And while that's not bad for one or even three DLCs, in the long run it makes the game very disjointed because the systems don't interact.

So we get some very specific endgame content, but nothing that enhances the early game or a game where you don't want to play a royal. Medieval factions and tech would have been interesting, but that's actually something that I feel can be left to mods. Better faction interaction, more general quests, more events would have been obvious choices. Include stuff that's not so easy to mod and not as ubiquitous (as opposed to just more items without any special mechanics)

I'd have preferred if Hospitality for example would have been included on a more basic level. Apparently there is a quest where you have to host a noble, but again that's gated behind the royal stuff in general. Here I don't agree with the silly "You shouldn't just rip off mods" crowd. Hospitality is a great example of how vanilla could improve a lot on the mod, as that mod can be quite hacky to do what it does. And guests can cause weird issues because the game wasn't really designed with them in mind.

Please don't misunderstand me here. I do not agree with the general premise here that the DLC is bad because it didn't incorporate a certain mod. But I think there were better choices about what to implement in the base game and how.
And Quality of Life mods do not belong in a DLC anyways

How do you go from 'this is my opinion' to 'everyone was asking for this and it should be my way?' Does it make you angry if I tell you that I love everything about this expansion, including the exciting world we are given a glimpse into and the hints of future expansion? Does it make you angry if I tell you that I don't care if your saves and your mods are broken because you should have made local copies of the game? I mean I feel sorry for you because I was there once but I sucked it up and stopped using Steam for games/saves I care about.

If you're angry now because you perceive that I said 'mean words to you' consider that you were the one who implied that all of your wishes and complaints about the game are more important than my satisfaction with the game.

Anyway, I'm also disappointed. I can't find a single game forum anywhere on the Internet where there isn't a train of malcontents complaining about every little thing they don't like, assuming that it was made for them specifically to like in the first place.

Quote from: Ser Kitteh on February 26, 2020, 05:05:37 AM
1000+ mods made by 1000+ people should not be the litmus test for whether Ludeon should consider a DLC. That's ridiculous. Ludeon is a small team who worked on Royalty for 16 months.

Yet that professional team get blown out of the water by a bunch of autists doing thing in their spare time.
16 months for Royalty? I've seen 1 person put out more impressive mods in a fraction of the time. CAll me mean, but I'm NOT IMPRESSED.

Quote from: MengDe on February 26, 2020, 05:25:06 AM
"I cannot imagine ever playing without 100+ mods, simply for all the QoL improvements and adding missing content"

A content is not "missing" from the main game just because you got used to playing with mods and can't do without them now.
Missing implies it was there before and then it got removed, which is not the case.

I consider it missing it feels like it should be there or was planned but never implemented (as quite a few thing are, going form early notes).

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy the game is as moddable as it is, but that doesn't make the game itself good.

Quote from: Serenity on February 26, 2020, 06:50:27 AM
It should certainly have included more content that's suitable for every playstyle. But it appears that with the exception of the mechanoids and stealing tech you have play a royal to get access to the new stuff. That's bad. New quests and such should be there for everyone to enjoy.
I understand why it was implemented that way. Lots of DLCs do that. They implement separate systems because that it makes the game easier to maintain. The developers don't have to support two systems that do the same thing. And while that's not bad for one or even three DLCs, in the long run it makes the game very disjointed because the systems don't interact.

So we get some very specific endgame content, but nothing that enhances the early game or a game where you don't want to play a royal. Medieval factions and tech would have been interesting, but that's actually something that I feel can be left to mods. Better faction interaction, more general quests, more events would have been obvious choices. Include stuff that's not so easy to mod and not as ubiquitous (as opposed to just more items without any special mechanics)

I'd have preferred if Hospitality for example would have been included on a more basic level. Apparently there is a quest where you have to host a noble, but again that's gated behind the royal stuff in general. Here I don't agree with the silly "You shouldn't just rip off mods" crowd. Hospitality is a great example of how vanilla could improve a lot on the mod, as that mod can be quite hacky to do what it does. And guests can cause weird issues because the game wasn't really designed with them in mind.

Please don't misunderstand me here. I do not agree with the general premise here that the DLC is bad because it didn't incorporate a certain mod. But I think there were better choices about what to implement in the base game and how.
And Quality of Life mods do not belong in a DLC anyways

100% agree

So you want free mods, made by modders, then call them autists? Really mature there, bud.

The fact of the matter is you are not entitled to free things. If you don't like it, that's too bad. Maybe you should have waited for reviews or watched a couple of Lets Plays. That is assuming you even bought the DLC.

My issue with the complaints that you and generally hype train depressives are making on game forums everywhere is that you're turning what's essentially your preference into a standard that everyone should adhere to. To save myself a lot of trouble and hassle, I generally avoid games that I have a bad feeling about, like the way you feel about RimWorld. Your description of RimWorld matches up with my experience of Starbound, for example. To me this was an unfinished game that was made only bearable and awesome by the Frackin' Universe mod. I'm well aware that there are people out there who believe Starbound was everything for them and I'm happy for them but I avoid vanilla Starbound like the plague. If I felt that way about RimWorld I'd certainly not bother posting on the Ludeon Forums.

Are you trying to change Tynan's mind? Or coerce people to see it your way and make all the changes you are asking? What purpose does this serve other than to entertain you and you alone?

I'm curious, and I haven't tested it - does steel and plasteel still burn? Or is not even that fixed?

You haven't explained why you think steel and plasteel shouldn't burn. You're just assuming they shouldn't burn. Why do you use the word 'fix' when you're talking about a preference?

Quote from: RicRider on February 26, 2020, 10:34:09 AM
You haven't explained why you think steel and plasteel shouldn't burn. You're just assuming they shouldn't burn. Why do you use the word 'fix' when you're talking about a preference?

Since when does stone and metal burn and catch fire?
Do I have to explain to you why I think dry wood should burn?

Quote from: RicRider on February 26, 2020, 10:21:06 AM
My issue with the complaints that you and generally hype train depressives are making on game forums everywhere is that you're turning what's essentially your preference into a standard that everyone should adhere to. To save myself a lot of trouble and hassle, I generally avoid games that I have a bad feeling about, like the way you feel about RimWorld. Your description of RimWorld matches up with my experience of Starbound, for example. To me this was an unfinished game that was made only bearable and awesome by the Frackin' Universe mod. I'm well aware that there are people out there who believe Starbound was everything for them and I'm happy for them but I avoid vanilla Starbound like the plague. If I felt that way about RimWorld I'd certainly not bother posting on the Ludeon Forums.

Are you trying to change Tynan's mind? Or coerce people to see it your way and make all the changes you are asking? What purpose does this serve other than to entertain you and you alone?

Am I not allowed to voice my opinion, or do you think only people blindly in love with Rimworld should be allowed to post?

And no, I'm talking about a purely common sense perspective - QoL and general mechanical enhacements that impact the game more severely and are harder for modders to do (or require a very hacky implementation) should be what expansions/development should focus on. Modders can add small stuff easily enough.

Steel and plasteel burn as a matter of game balance. If you really don't like fire, invest the time in for stone / uranium construction. That's always been rather apparent to me at least.

If you don't think they should burn, then there needs to be something else that makes stone / uranium stand out as a useful building material. Turning off burning metal makes several materials obsolete.

Quote from: TrashMan link=topic=50475.msg471215#msg471215


Since when does stone and metal burn and catch fire?
Do I have to explain to you why I think dry wood should burn?

Okay, so now we're getting somewhere. I still don't like your passive aggressive attitude, but whatever dude, I guess you're just having a bad day.

So answer me this then, if Gandalf can destroy Balrogs and become reborn as the White Wizard why doesn't he just obliterate Sauron by waving a magic stick? Why does he make Frodo and Sam do all the hard work?

You can argue realism all you like, but in the end the response is always going to be 'use a mod', because your definition of realistic is certainly not the same as everyone else's and even if we can agree on a standard of what's realistic (and I agree with you steel burning isn't realistic duh) that may not be what the purpose is here. The purpose is simple... if you care about things burning you're gonna take the time and build out of stone and be smart with how you use your resources.

Quote from: RicRider on February 26, 2020, 10:21:06 AM
Am I not allowed to voice my opinion, or do you think only people blindly in love with Rimworld should be allowed to post?

Nobody's telling you not to post your opinion, mate. I do believe in freedom of speech. What I'm telling you is that the kind of whining you're putting out is really annoying. Am I not allowed to express my frustration at grifters in public? Why are you trying to limit my freedom of speech?

Quote from: RicRider on February 26, 2020, 10:21:06 AM
And no, I'm talking about a purely common sense perspective - QoL and general mechanical enhacements that impact the game more severely and are harder for modders to do (or require a very hacky implementation) should be what expansions/development should focus on. Modders can add small stuff easily enough.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. You're being very general but I can see that you have some very strong ideas about what modders should do and what game developers should do and so in your position I'd work on becoming a modder or a game developer. Who knows? Your ideas could be good and it would be interesting to see how gamers react to them!

Quote from: Ser Kitteh on February 26, 2020, 05:05:37 AM
1000+ mods made by 1000+ people should not be the litmus test for whether Ludeon should consider a DLC. That's ridiculous. Ludeon is a small team who worked on Royalty for 16 months.

You might as well asked why Rimworld doesn't have infinite resources and infinite manpower.

It never ceases to amaze me how people will still live and die by the "But they're a small development team!" excuse even after the devs in question have become multi-millionaires who could easily bring on any extra help they need.

Nah, you're not the only one disappointed by it.

Quote from: TrashMan on February 26, 2020, 04:01:08 AM
But it feels like this update and DLC messed so many mods and playtroughs, without actually adding anything of actual worth (the perormance improvements being the only thing of interest).

Community will always get annoyed if an update breaks mods without adding some real content.  Re-balancing things and making minor adjustment is not adding content, no matter how big that list is.  Fixing bugs is appreciated of course but that too is not new content. Updating the game without throwing game-changing content at it to push out DLC, IF that is going to be the trend from here on out then expect angry voices to grow.  Expect to do damage control rather than crunching down on fixing things shortly after releasing.

Quote from: TrashMan on February 26, 2020, 04:01:08 AM
People complained that the game, despite is age, is never on sale or discount, and that this DLC is overpriced.

They can price it how they want, can't prevent people from criticizing it. That DLC costs more than most indie game out there (games that have also been in development 5+ years) and old AAA titles.

Quote from: TrashMan on February 26, 2020, 04:01:08 AM
I would have been 1000 times happier if Ty either copied or simply directly implemented content from some of the best mods.

I got mixed feelings about this.  Can't say I'm totally against it. I don't usually see developers copy several mods into their games. Ludeon is the first to do this in my experience.  While I don't think the amount of people saying he directly rip-off mods in the DLC is fair since he does take his own spin on things, I can't blame the accusations.  The amount of times I look at a feature worth acknowledging in a base-game update only to find it was a direct copy from a mod is alarming.

Quote from: TrashMan on February 26, 2020, 04:01:08 AM
People complained that the game is unfinished, and frankly..it kinda feels like it. There are so many holes in the game that I cannot imagine ever playing without 100+ mods, simply for all the QoL improvements and adding missing content.

People will have their opinions.  My opinion is same as yours as that there are lots of holes in base game. Caravanning, quests, mechs, events, QoL, the list goes on.  I got into modding quite early cause the game fell short.  I chalked it up to they need more time.  So it seems like in order to see the systems flesh out, I gotta pay up the DLC.  Tynan never made promises, but he did hinted that there would be lot more to see in this game, paraphrasing:"a book full ideas", "that idea will be neat to try out some  time", we'll see many features, it'll be a long time before game gets completed.  None of these things hinted at locking such content behind DLC so I bought it during EA. I'm not totally against DLC but IMO the game is not that phase yet. You got other minor problems as well, game will also be balanced around DLC in mind now.. It's not as simple as "don't buy the DLC, you won't affected by it."

RimWorld isn't like an FPS or RPG where it has a bounded story; it's a fully open simulation game. So it always has ways to expand.

Often, some of the best ways are fairly obvious and natural to everyone. When this happens, modders sometimes do things before us, because they have much shorter release cycles and release with sometimes lower quality and almost always much less testing. This has been happening for many years, back into 2014. The fact that a modder saw the same obvious opportunity as us doesn't mean we're copying from them; it means the opportunity was obvious and they could release faster because they're not bound to the same slow test and release cadence as us.

Just think of how impossible it would be to improve this game if we were barred from doing anything that had been done in any of RW's 6,000 mods.

The other thing is - no matter how much one adds to RimWorld, you'll never reach a point where nobody can think of anything else to do. It's just impossible. So I don't think a reasonable to say there are 'holes in the base game' just because you can think of things to add, or because modders are capable of adding value. It's not a useful standard.

The reason is because you're setting a standard that is categorically impossible to fulfill. By this standard, any game in this genre will always have 'holes'. We've worked on RW for 7 years now and one can still note that it could be added to. In fact my list of desired improvements only gets longer over time. The bigger the game gets, the bigger it can get.

So where is the finish line? What is enough? Dwarf Fortress has been in development for 12+ years IIRC, and it's clearly still got tons of things you could add. And it seems pretty obvious I or Toady could keep going on our respective games for another 10 years and not be near 'done' by this standard. Every thing you add just creates more opportunities to add other things.

The standard has to be something one can reasonably expect a human being to fulfil. This is why RW was complete in 2018 after 5.5 years of work. Like I said at the time (https://old.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/7qh746/next_patch_will_be_10_confirmed_by_tynan/dsplgc1/), "It won't be perfect, of course. Nothing ever is. And I won't even be finished with it. But - it'll be finished." And it was. That doesn't mean it's impossible to add anything, and the fact that modders made useful mods, and we made an expansion, doesn't mean 1.0 isn't complete, because if it did then the standard is simply impossible to fulfill no matter how long we work. One must ask, if 7 years isn't enough, how many is?

Quote from: TrashMan on February 26, 2020, 04:01:08 AM
I hear a lot of complains. Some with merit, others without.
But it feels like this update and DLC messed so many mods and playtroughs, without actually adding anything of actual worth (the perormance improvements being the only thing of interest).

New animals are fun, they are not simply new flavors of animals, they have their own unique niches. On top of that, there is Recon Armor, which is a tremendously useful armor set to be added.

Quote
People complained that the game, despite is age, is never on sale or discount, and that this DLC is overpriced. I feel they are somewhat right.

Tynan doesn't do sales. He determined the price for his work is $30. He doesn't give it an inflated price, then give sales to get to its "actual" price, he doesn't buy in to that. What's it's worth is what it's worth, and that amount is $30. Given how well RimWorld sells, I'd say he priced it pretty well. The DLC is a full-blown expansion, and for what it's added, it feels worth the price. It's difficult to see, as there is a large amount of content I can't immediately see, but everything I've seen so far is great and I'm continually surprised by how much more there is than I expected. But regardless, this is all largely opinion-based, and as Royalty is selling very damn well, I'd say Tynan once again did well on the price-setting.

Quote
People complained that the game is unfinished, and frankly..it kinda feels like it. There are so many holes in the game that I cannot imagine ever playing without 100+ mods, simply for all the QoL improvements and adding missing content. What is missing, you may ask?

How is it missing if it never existed? There is literally always more that can be added to any game, but Rimworld is a complete experience as is, it is a finished game, and a good one. Could it grow more? Sure. But $30 does not shackle a dev to your service for life, so it must finish somewhere. With more content comes more pay for the developer, hence an expansion pack. And possibly more in the future (I hope, anyways).

QuoteThe tech advancement seems to skip and jump all over the place. The early game lacks content. You go from tribal to industrial. So much more research could be added, more stages and research could be better gated (you much have X number of medieval tech researched before you can unlock industrial) Something like royalty would have been good for medieval content, instead we get psychic space emperors content that feels off.

I'll agree that the research can feel a little jumpy. But the research has expanded very greatly since the game's beginning. There is plenty of content and plenty of techs, even if their ordering can feel a little odd sometimes. (personally I think the main thing lacking here is a real reason for the intellectual skill once everything is researched). But as stated before, the game is a full package that stands well on its own. Personally, I've hardly touched mods. Over 90% of my 2000ish hour play-time was spent with no mods whatsoever, and the few times I used them were to try out one or two that seemed creative. I understand Rimworld works well with mods, it is very mod-friendly and has many creative modders who create quality mods. But it is absolutely more than capable of standing on its own as well.
The royalty content actually fits the original fiction primer well. I'm glad to see more of the Rimworld setting, personally.

Personally, while I'm not tempted by the Royalty DLC, I'm also not "disappointed" in any meaningful way, beyond a sort of shrug and "Oh, well."  In fact, I'm more pleased than not, because 1.1 adds a lot of super-cool new stuff.  I'm especially looking forward to what it will likely mean to the mod community, from what I've seen mentioned.

It's just DLC.  If you think it's worth the money, it is.  If not, it isn't.  Either way, DLC sales mean more money to Ludeon, which means continuing development.  Even if you don't like THIS DLC, after all, who's to say about the next?  Or what changes will be added to the vanilla game?

Quote from: Jibbles on February 26, 2020, 01:46:19 PM
I got mixed feelings about this.  Can't say I'm totally against it. I don't usually see developers copy several mods into their games. Ludeon is the first to do this in my experience.  While I don't think the amount of people saying he directly rip-off mods in the DLC is fair since he does take his own spin on things, I can't blame the accusations.  The amount of times I look at a feature worth acknowledging in a base-game update only to find it was a direct copy from a mod is alarming.

People will ALWAYS complain. It's a "damned if you do, damn if you don't scenario", so you might as well do it.
It is downright retarded to think a developer cannot implement a feature into his game because some guy made a mod with that feature first.
What a developer can and should do is focus on making his game the best he can, complainers be damned.

What dissapoints me the most is that people have been askign for specfiic tihngs and specific fixes for AGES - and many of those would be simple to implement - instead Ty adds things no one really asked for. Off the top of my head I can think off quite a few things that were never fixed, despite preetty much no one liking it.
Metals burn, surgery is still terribly handeled, buildable smoothed walls for aesthetics, armor still doesn't cover hands and feet, devices consume power even when not used, etc, etc.

I'll give credit where credit is due, Ty seems like a good programer, he made a good framework. But I question his ability as an actual game designer, because which mechanics he chooses to implement and how he goes about it totally backwards. His seems intent to make any approach he doesn't like as annyoing as possible and seems to think artificial and nonsensical limitations are "fun".
Take for exmaple the who pawns being incapable mechanic? Terrible, TERRIBLE idea. Makes no damn senve whatsoever. The Pawns are Capable mods is basically mandatory and fixes the devs terrible decision. You can force a pawn to do a job he hates in emergencies, but for a hefy mood penalty that gets progressively worse.

Or how he works agaisnt turtling and mountain bases. Infestation? OK, could be even deadlier IMHO. But constantly nerfting turrets and buffing enemies? Then the mechanoid swarms and their turrets (which are INFINITELY superior to yours). Again, terrible.

There are so many better, more sensible ways he could have balanced mountain bases. For example:
- tool requirements - you can't dig solid stone with bare hands. You need to make a pickaxe to mine. Slows down the entire mining process and limits hte amount of pawns that can dig based on equipment. Heck, you can apply it to cutting down trees - make an axe requirement. A stone chunk and some wood and you have a stone axe. (but how can you get wood if you can't cut trees without axe? Simple, you can gather wood without axes by breaking branches. That would yield only a tiny amount of wood, take a long time, the tree would stay and it's growing would be re-set)
- slow down mining. Simple. Mining should take time even with good tools. Because it's stone.
- have raiders attack farming plots and reduce farming yield, requiring bigger farms that would have to be on the outside, making it harder to turtle and protect. Also, makes sense. A tiny farm isn't going to feed an entire colony so easly. Mgiht also require some nutritional value balancing.

All of these are just from the top of my head, and none are gimicky or unfair.

Rant over I guess.

***

ADDENDUM

Some mentioned CK2 and Sims4. True, I played CK2 and Sims3 (not 4, it's a downgrade), but I did with 4-5 mods tops. Pretty much any game I can think off I NEVER used more than a dozen mods.
Meanwhile, I have 150+ mods for Rimworld and that's considered lightweight. Most people I know play with 200+ mods. Something ain't right if you need THAT many mods.

Quote from: Tynan on February 26, 2020, 07:38:04 PM
Often, some of the best ways are fairly obvious and natural to everyone. When this happens, modders sometimes do things before us, because they have much shorter release cycles and release with sometimes lower quality and almost always much less testing. This has been happening for many years, back into 2014. The fact that a modder saw the same obvious opportunity as us doesn't mean we're copying from them; it means the opportunity was obvious and they could release faster because they're not bound to the same slow test and release cadence as us.

Just think of how impossible it would be to improve this game if we were barred from doing anything that had been done in any of RW's 6,000 mods.

True. I agree.

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So where is the finish line? What is enough?

When the core set of features feels complete. Mods can always add, but the core remains the core.
You can always have more guns, more apparel, more factions, things from other settings, etc... but those are irrelevant for the game at large.
In this case, since we are dealing with a colony simulator, focus on actual things that have to do with colony, caravans and broad faction interaction rather than pointless filler that can easily be added by any modder.
The question isn't "what can I add?", but "what feels like it's missing/incomplete?"

So things like vehicles (boats, blimps, trucks, shuttles. mods have done almost everything except for enemies using vehicles. You could probably implement it better rather than in some hack way as most mods do), hospitality(easily one of the best mods and makes a lot of sense), better psychology and pawn interaction (a simpler implementation of psychology mod? You don't really need that many attributes/sliders. In fact, this one could be tagged optional), faction diplomacy, animal handling, raids (preemptive strike) - the basics.
And fix the design issues people have been complaining since day 1.

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One must ask, if 7 years isn't enough, how many is?

However long it takes I guess?
Hey, you chose something as broad as a colony simulator to make, not me, and you know how complex DF was and how everyone will compare your game to it.
Heck, fixing all the thing I mentioned could be done REALTIVELY easily now. Even easier if you were to just take the mods that already fix it.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all, since I'm talking about a dozen must-have mods whose content could be merged into the core (in some cases, simplified). I would expect a professional developer who works full time and knows the code inside out to be able to do a better job than modder who does it in his spare time, and faster too.

At least in my case, I am giving you a clear finish line that can be reached in a reasonable time frame.

NOTE: I'm not counting simple fixes and mini mods in to that dozen number. Things like vein miner and non-burnable metal are trivial.

Quote from: Grubfist on February 26, 2020, 10:16:25 PM
But $30 does not shackle a dev to your service for life, so it must finish somewhere. With more content comes more pay for the developer, hence an expansion pack. And possibly more in the future (I hope, anyways).

I'd happily part with more of my money, if the expansion actually addressed things people have been complaining and trying to fix with mods since forever.

"Some mentioned CK2 and Sims4. True, I played CK2 and Sims3 (not 4, it's a downgrade), but I did with 4-5 mods tops."
O-only 4 or 5.....
You see, my mod addiction didn't start with Rimworld, it only made it worse...
Sims 3 was a good game, but also very very breakable. Might be part of the reason why you only had a few mods there. I know I did too.
Sims 4 is a somewhat different beast.
In any case, imagine these games' communities went crazy every time these games released an Expansion pack (and these also break quite a few things when they do!)
I've seen people get salty, sure, but people didn't go barking around that Company broke their favourite mod or save willy nilly, or stole ideas. I'm so confused at Rimworld's playerbase reaction lol.

You know people that play with 200+ mods, and I'm one of those, but see, I've also seen people who play with nearly no mods and I don't know how they live either.
I think the "issue" here is that Rimworld has such a thriving mod community that one person can really make the game whatever they want.

Beyond the more obvious QoL ones, though, how would you even choose which mods are essential? Realize mods are quite the personal thing.
For example, I no longer know what vanilla hair and faces look like because I just use a bunch of anime mods. Would you argue this means Rimworld should be animefied, because a lot of people use those too?
I also don't like playing without races, and those mods are definitely game breakers, but half of the races I use are copyrighted or don't even fit the Rimworld world design. Whose responsibility is it if these break with an update?
If Tynan for some reason implemented CE, which is also a big favourite, that would make me drop the game.

Hey, you said you only played CK2 with "a dozen" of mods.... meanwhile here I am using a metric ton of mods for my own fun, some of them complete overhauls... Oh, new expansion? Time for a prayer and to check what broke...

Again, I reiterate, I don't disagree with the idea the game could use improvements, and people can have their opinions about pricing and what the DLC is worth and so on, I just think there's much ado about nothing regarding mods.

TrashMan, I'll just say:

- In my opinion as a game designer a lot of the things you think would improve the game would actually make it worse, at least for the majority of players whose tastes may differ from yours. A simple example is work type disables, which if removed by e.g. Pawns Are Capable create a long list of negative design consequences in terms of clarity, feedback, storytelling, and situation diversity.
- The things you think are easy to implement are much more difficult than you imagine. Think 10x more difficult.
- The desires you feel as obvious in yourself are not shared by the other million+ RW players who want different things. It's easy to design a game for one person; much harder to balance the diverse desires of all those diverse players.
- The relationship between the difficulty of making mods and making the game itself is the reverse of what you think; it's not easier to make things in core, it's harder because we have to hit a higher standard of performance, balance, and integration, and we have to do all the integration over time whereas mods can just add onto a functional system. Integration refactoring take ~40% of our time all in.

Further to what Tynan just said, we can sit here all day long calling each others' ideas terrible and telling everyone else our ideas are perfect. See I think RimWorld should have more difficulty added to it. More mental breaks, more pawns that can't do stuff, more funny conditions that make it harder for them to survive, more mechanoids with bigger guns, more insects with bigger teeth... do you get it yet, TrashMan? Your playstyle to me sounds so weak and if RimWorld was anything like you wanted it I doubt I would still be playing it after 5 years.

As someone who plays only with mods (haven't touched vanilla since A14) and lots of them (hundreds yes), i can say your post makes zero sense to me. Yes, vanilla rimworld to me basically the game engine, framework if you will, with which i build game tailored for my tastes. But no matter how many mods i run, i do still play RIMWORLD, i get to play it thanks to Tynan, who made this framework, and now it got an update, its wonderful.
I bought dlc 5 minutes after i got the news (and thanks Tynan for having proper blog and forum without steam dependency), its small enough price for supporting development of excellent game framework to me, and that's counting the fact that i don't get to play with it for next few months until most mods would get updates (need combat extended in muh games).

On second note, mentioned messed playthroughs and mods is purely your own fault (and steam crappy mod support). Nothing stops you from playing drm free version of rimworld with local mods, i always play like this and had 0 problems with any game or mods updates.
Install rim and mods, play until you want new version or new mods, install new ones, rinse and repeat. I can always unpack local copy of a game (archived all game and data folder) i played in 2017 (or 2016) on alpha14d build 1241 with all mods and settings, load save and continue playing it. And again, i praise Tynan for providing drm free version which allow you do things like that.

There will always be nice-to-have things and such that modders can cover while devs just don't have the resources to keep up.  Which things like that make it into vanilla is a matter of priority.  I can give leeway on that.

The things in Rimworld that actually bother me are the internal inconsistencies in design/implementation.  There aren't a ton of these but when they turn up they're pretty glaring.

What bothers me most is the immediate pivot from "Why no updates?  Is RW dead/abandoned?" to "ZOMG Why did you update?!"

  .-'---`-.
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|              \
\           _  \
,\  _    ,'-,/-)\
( * \ \,' ,' ,'-)
`._,)     -',-')
   \/         ''/
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   /       ,'-'

why can't i downvote? Ugh. What an entitled and myopic point of view. Hard pass.

Quote from: MengDe on February 27, 2020, 05:04:32 AM
"Some mentioned CK2 and Sims4. True, I played CK2 and Sims3 (not 4, it's a downgrade), but I did with 4-5 mods tops."
O-only 4 or 5.....
You see, my mod addiction didn't start with Rimworld, it only made it worse...
Sims 3 was a good game, but also very very breakable. Might be part of the reason why you only had a few mods there. I know I did too.

My Frien, I'm an oldfag.
I've been at this game thing when games were still on tape cassetes and 8-inch floppy dicks.
My biggest hobby is modding and I've modded and played os many games I lost count.

And even with very moddable games that can accommodate many mods, I've never really used a lot, because I never felt the game needed them.
Aside from Rimworld, the highest number of mods I ever used would probably be Starsector... about 20-ish mods? That a BIG difference to rimworlds 168 I'm using ATM.

Quote
For example, I no longer know what vanilla hair and faces look like because I just use a bunch of anime mods. Would you argue this means Rimworld should be animefied, because a lot of people use those too?

No, that's a trivial thing that is NOT mechanical.

Quote
If Tynan for some reason implemented CE, which is also a big favourite, that would make me drop the game.

CE mixes too many things and it definitely not for everyone.
Personally, the shooting/targeting changes are great, ammo is so-so (gun nuts always like to go overboard), everything else (like increased lethality, limbs are already too easy to lose) I don't want. So I'm not really using it.
So the only thing for CE I would incorporate in the core game is the shooting/targeting improvement.

Quote from: Tynan on February 27, 2020, 06:02:03 AM
TrashMan, I'll just say:

- In my opinion as a game designer a lot of the things you think would improve the game would actually make it worse, at least for the majority of players whose tastes may differ from yours. A simple example is work type disables, which if removed by e.g. Pawns Are Capable create a long list of negative design consequences in terms of clarity, feedback, storytelling, and situation diversity.

This is something is disagree with 1000000% Clarity? Whats unclear? Feedback? Storytelling?
This is why I think you aren't that good of a game designer as you think. You want to force "diversity" even if it doesn't make sense and you have to hammer it in. Basically creating false difficulty and drama and calling it good game design.

What's unclear or unintuitive about "this guy hates doing this, he's not going to be happy".
If anything is unintuitive is colonists downright refusing to do something, even if it means their death.
"I will NOT haul that artillery shell to the cannon. I don't care if we're under attack. I don't care if my family will be killed!" THAT is unintuitive. THAT doesn't make sense. THAT is forced and gamey as f***.

There is still a price to pay in forcing pawns to do what they want, and you're still going to end up without good pawns to do something, either due to injury or low skills. That's a natural soft cap/limit, while you seem to prefer hard, dare I say, unnatural limits.

If you want stories and actual human drama, first thing would be for the pawns to act like sensible human beings...you know, have some sense of self-preservation?

Quote- The things you think are easy to implement are much more difficult than you imagine. Think 10x more difficult.

Some of them might be. Vehicles definitely. Hospitality maybe. Others?
I'm sure changing metal to not burn requires weeks of testing and coding.
Or making production devices not use power when people are not using them - definitely requires the entire core code to be re-written.
There are quite a few mods out there that fix and improve that are just small xml changes or tiny pieces of code.

What you should take away from my post is not how old either of us is, or how many games we play, or what mods we like, or how many mods we tend to use.

The point of it is: the content people like and the mods they use vary wildly, according to each individual. This is true for me, you, or anybody else. You can look at 1000 mod lists and they will all be different. Other people in this thread have reiterated this point too.

If you have an opinion about a game, it shouldn't be because "many people use a lot of mods, therefore game bad and unfinished." You don't know every user on the planet and why they might or might not use mods.

I am not talking about everything else you said, you can have all the opinions you want about Rimworld balance and how to fix it.

I am actually not dissapointed about the DLC. And I hate the way most companies use DLC's.
Day One DLC, Paywall content and so on .. so my  first thought was "NO TYNAN, not you too".

But as it turns out, the DLC was still available DRM Free, the technical changes to the game came free with the main game, some QoL improvements from mods actually made it in the game, as it happened before, and the main DLC content is technically superior to similiar Mods and opens up new possibilities for more mods.

I looked at my logged hours in steam, and thought another 1000+ hours for only 20$ that keep Tynan and his Team working, now that is a pretty good investment.

But yes I miss a lot of QoL improvements as well, which I think should be in the main game. Mainly AllowTool with its right click options and hotkeys ( WE ARE PC USERS we have more than 10 buttons and 2 wobbly sticks ) , the Fluffy Menu Collection and Animal Logic.
As for the numbers of mods I use .. I am of the faction that thinks hunting for interesting new stuff is part of the game.


Let me finish with a question : If you support a Modder on Patreon, because of the time and effort invested in the mod, does the mod become second party DLC ?

I am not disappoitned at all. I like the way they presetned the DLC- it's truly extra content outside of advances to the core game. Nothing core to it. And it's a blast.

As for the op's list of mods "We all want added:" if Hospitality and Psychology ever made it into the core, I think I'd barf. They make the game a big pile of cheese on a plate.

I think the game and the DLC is great.

DLC has:
- More challenge: Mech clusters bring in their own defense structures while having technology that passively damages your colony (sun blocking ect) brings a real new tactical part to the game.
- Quests that bring more late game objectives and missions with rewards/challenges
- New magic system
- More weapons, armor and body installing equipment to customize your guys.

I could spend this money going out and watching two movies. 4 hours ish of entertainment.
This dlc provides me with scores of more hours and content.
No brainier really.

The fact that this game can and has been modded so some mods struggle when updates reflects it's virtue -  it's customizability and uniqueness, not take away from it.

In the long term these DLC"s will provide more content, more money for the developers to make more content, more modders as the game gains more attention, and more content for modders to customize.

A win-win in my books.

Quote from: MengDe on February 28, 2020, 08:39:53 AM
If you have an opinion about a game, it shouldn't be because "many people use a lot of mods, therefore game bad and unfinished." You don't know every user on the planet and why they might or might not use mods.

I don't have to know every user, that a pointless goal.
My point still stands. A good, finished and polished game does not need that many mods.
Or do you think that RW is the only moddable game that has lots of mods? There are plenty others out there. Yet few where people use that many mods AT ONCE. They might switch between various mods in different playtrough, combines a few....If something wasn't missing for a complete experience, then people wouldn't be using that many at once.

Quote from: dearmad on February 28, 2020, 09:47:29 PM
As for the op's list of mods "We all want added:" if Hospitality and Psychology ever made it into the core, I think I'd barf. They make the game a big pile of cheese on a plate.

I can understand Psychology (it can feel bloated, hence why I said simplified), but hospitality?
What about it is bad? Everything added is sensible and natural.

Quote from: TrashMan on February 29, 2020, 03:58:09 PM
Or do you think that RW is the only moddable game that has lots of mods? There are plenty others out there. Yet few where people use that many mods AT ONCE. They might switch between various mods in different playtrough, combines a few....If something wasn't missing for a complete experience, then people wouldn't be using that many at once.

Recently I have played The Witcher 3. Like with RimWorld I only use a handful of mods (okay, a bit more in RimWorld, maybe 20, though most are small stuff), but I see people saying they use 200-300 mods. And Witcher 3 is a rather successful game too, that won a GOTY award or two. Not many will call it unfinished or claim that CDPR don't know how to make games.

Nay. With any game that has an active modding scene, and with a game somewhat accessible to modding, it will quickly have hundreds and even thousands of mods. It doesn't mean the game is crap or unfinished. It simply means there are a lot of people out there with even more ideas, and they implement some of them. And they generally do it quick, with little or no testing.

A professional game developer can't operate like that. A modder fucks up, and the 1000 people or whatever who downloaded it has a wonky game. They can remove the mod, and everything is well. If Ludon does that, a million people will have, in the worst case, a non-working game. It would be a disaster.

Whether people prefer to use no mods, a few mods, or everything ever released isn't really a comment on a game's quality. More likely a reflection of people having loved the game and played it a lot, and then wanting to try out some mods to spice it up, have a slightly different gameplay.

(True, there are some things I think are more deserving of going "core" than others, but generally the above paragraphs are fair I think).

QuoteOr do you think that RW is the only moddable game that has lots of mods?

You seem to be under the impression I just played maybe 3 games ever in my life. And funny that you mention this when one of the games I went out of my way to mention is CK2, which has a relatively big mod scene. I also went out of my way to mention I, another individual, enjoy using a lot of mods.

I go out of my way to buy certain types of games on PC precisely because I love exploring mods and using as many of them as possible, and not necessarily because I think there's anything wrong with the base game. If my mod list is ever under 20 mods, please call 911, because I can only be sick.

Yes, my experience is anecdotal, but it goes to show you really can't have generalized opinion about a game based on your personal practices. If you can't understand that despite everything that has been said in this thread, there's nothing to be done about it.

QuoteYet few where people use that many mods AT ONCE.

You don't know every user, or every game, but you know for a fact few people do it? No doubt there, no hedging? Just magically, without any access to game user data and the such, like that? Ok.

This is the last message I'll post here. I think neither of us is interested in changing their mind.

Quote from: TrashMan on February 29, 2020, 03:58:09 PM

Quote from: MengDe on February 28, 2020, 08:39:53 AM
If you have an opinion about a game, it shouldn't be because "many people use a lot of mods, therefore game bad and unfinished." You don't know every user on the planet and why they might or might not use mods.

I don't have to know every user, that a pointless goal.
My point still stands. A good, finished and polished game does not need that many mods.
Or do you think that RW is the only moddable game that has lots of mods? There are plenty others out there. Yet few where people use that many mods AT ONCE. They might switch between various mods in different playtrough, combines a few....If something wasn't missing for a complete experience, then people wouldn't be using that many at once.

I agree. Why do I need 150+ mods to have a halfway decent game setup? The modders finished to game and help make it sorta complete...

Except vanilla RimWorld is an excellent game.

Opinions are like that, deal with it; not everyone agrees with you.  Over 1 million copies sold and "Overwhelmingly Positive" reviews on Steam completely invalidate your drama, that simple.  You're whining about a $35 game and $20 *optional* DLC, 3 movies' worth of cash combined, that can potentially give back hundreds, or even thousands of hours of enjoyment, if you like the game at all.  And if not, WTF are you buying the DLC for?!

Nor could you, I'll note, play a single mod without the base game.  Yeah, RW "sucks" soooo much, yet you play your modded game all the same, don't you?  Yeah, whatever; talk to the hand... ::)

Quote from: Tynan on February 26, 2020, 07:38:04 PM
RimWorld isn't like an FPS or RPG where it has a bounded story; it's a fully open simulation game. So it always has ways to expand.


The other thing is - no matter how much one adds to RimWorld, you'll never reach a point where nobody can think of anything else to do. It's just impossible. So I don't think a reasonable to say there are 'holes in the base game' just because you can think of things to add, or because modders are capable of adding value. It's not a useful standard.

The reason is because you're setting a standard that is categorically impossible to fulfill. By this standard, any game in this genre will always have 'holes'. We've worked on RW for 7 years now and one can still note that it could be added to. In fact my list of desired improvements only gets longer over time. The bigger the game gets, the bigger it can get.

Holes in the game (by my definition) is a mixture of things:  Parts of the game obviously lacking. Also includes issues that get in my way from enjoying the game and sour my overall experience, even after taking long breaks. Some are easy/quick to fix, others not so much. Some require polish, others require content. Idk what made you come to the conclusion that they are just simply things we can think of adding to the game.

Response sounds awfully similar from like 3 years ago. You're brushing off feedback. You go on about how there are many ways to expand the game but you're usually quick to make excuses not to do it. Obviously, I don't expect all the flaws to be fixed. I don't expect for everything to be perfect. That would be unreasonable & impossible to accomplish.

Quote from: johnyoga on February 29, 2020, 07:22:30 PM

I agree. Why do I need 150+ mods to have a halfway decent game setup? The modders finished to game and help make it sorta complete...

I too have a long list of mods I won't play without, don't feel the NEED to mod in most of the games I play.  Honestly it's getting old hunting and testing, it's time consuming and not reliable.

I know Tynan likes to keep expectations low. I hope there will be better communication with future updates.  The lack of communication with this last one sucked, and the type of interactions I've noticed throughout the year makes things like "time spent on update" questionable.

Quote from: Bozobub on February 29, 2020, 10:14:13 PM
Except vanilla RimWorld is an excellent game.

Opinions are like that, deal with it; not everyone agrees with you.  Over 1 million copies sold and "Overwhelmingly Positive" reviews on Steam completely invalidate your drama, that simple.  You're whining about a $35 game and $20 *optional* DLC, 3 movies' worth of cash combined, that can potentially give back hundreds, or even thousands of hours of enjoyment, if you like the game at all.  And if not, WTF are you buying the DLC for?!

Nor could you, I'll note, play a single mod without the base game.  Yeah, RW "sucks" soooo much, yet you play your modded game all the same, don't you?  Yeajh, whatever; talk to the hand... ::)

Good advice, for people. But you are literally talking to zombies on autopilot about their mission to expose the corrupt gaming industry that makes (insert victim/scapegoat here) look bad. At least when I read TrashMan's whining I get the impression he's on a mission to show how Indie game developers are 'criminals' who deserve to be exposed for the 'bad programmers' they are. I don't get the sense that he's a gamer; he's a grifter, plain and simple. A bit like some real world e celebs I know but is probably mad that he doesn't have his own platform and fan base that can create havoc on Twitter for him.

I'm not disappointed by the DLC in the least. It adds much needed additional content to the game.

I'm sort of disappointed with 1.1 though. Performance improvements and high-definition support are god-sent (especially on a Mac). But... No QoL improvements?

"Allow everything" is still hidden behind a right-click in an item in a submenu in the "Architect" tab (Allow tool is a must).

Bill/order selection is still drop-down menus with "you blinked, you missed" descriptions (Dub's menus are a blessing).

Research is still "click once, wait, click next research" (Research tree's functionality is a blessing).

etc. etc.

Yes, these will be brought back again by modders. But if modders can do that (including significant reworking of the UI etc.), surely the developers of the game can add them, too?

EDIT: also, things like "build from inventory", smart carrying of items around (though this is implemented if I'm not mistaken, pawns no longer run around empty-handed), better caravan packing and management etc. etc.

Quote from: TrashMan on February 28, 2020, 07:30:01 AM



If you want stories and actual human drama, first thing would be for the pawns to act like sensible human beings...you know, have some sense of self-preservation?

I agree.
Rimworld is great, but can it be greater

Quote from: Bozobub on February 29, 2020, 10:14:13 PM
Except vanilla RimWorld is an excellent game.

Opinions are like that, deal with it; not everyone agrees with you.  Over 1 million copies sold and "Overwhelmingly Positive" reviews on Steam completely invalidate your drama, that simple.  You're whining about a $35 game and $20 *optional* DLC, 3 movies' worth of cash combined, that can potentially give back hundreds, or even thousands of hours of enjoyment, if you like the game at all.  And if not, WTF are you buying the DLC for?!

Nor could you, I'll note, play a single mod without the base game.  Yeah, RW "sucks" soooo much, yet you play your modded game all the same, don't you?  Yeah, whatever; talk to the hand... ::)

And how many of those reviews are on the vanilla only RW? Because when people put those ratings, they generally count the mods as part of the game. If RW didn't have any mods whatsoever that score would be significantly lower. Not that it matters. Internet scores, with rabbid fans, rabid haters, trolls and whatnot, are not realible at all.

I don't care about the money.
And lastly, popularity means nothing. Titanic is the n01 film, is it REALLY that good? Nope.

Quote from: Pangaea on February 29, 2020, 04:36:30 PM
Recently I have played The Witcher 3. Like with RimWorld I only use a handful of mods (okay, a bit more in RimWorld, maybe 20, though most are small stuff), but I see people saying they use 200-300 mods. And Witcher 3 is a rather successful game too, that won a GOTY award or two. Not many will call it unfinished or claim that CDPR don't know how to make games.

Nay. With any game that has an active modding scene, and with a game somewhat accessible to modding, it will quickly have hundreds and even thousands of mods. It doesn't mean the game is crap or unfinished. It simply means there are a lot of people out there with even more ideas, and they implement some of them. And they generally do it quick, with little or no testing.

Whether people prefer to use no mods, a few mods, or everything ever released isn't really a comment on a game's quality. More likely a reflection of people having loved the game and played it a lot, and then wanting to try out some mods to spice it up, have a slightly different gameplay.

Quote from: MengDe
You seem to be under the impression I just played maybe 3 games ever in my life. And funny that you mention this when one of the games I went out of my way to mention is CK2, which has a relatively big mod scene. I also went out of my way to mention I, another individual, enjoy using a lot of mods.

I go out of my way to buy certain types of games on PC precisely because I love exploring mods and using as many of them as possible, and not necessarily because I think there's anything wrong with the base game. If my mod list is ever under 20 mods, please call 911, because I can only be sick.

Yes, my experience is anecdotal, but it goes to show you really can't have generalized opinion about a game based on your personal practices. If you can't understand that despite everything that has been said in this thread, there's nothing to be done about it.

Why is there such a severe lack of reading comprehension?
There are plenty of games with tons and tons and tons of mods. Take Skyrim for example (which, amusingly enough, gets a lot of complaints about feeling rushed and incomplete and practically no one plays it vanilla).

The number of mods available is NOT RELEVANT. At beat, it can serve as a rough gauge of the games modability and popularity. Neither is the fact that someone might play RW without mods. Some people like to punch themselves in the balls. I personally know a guy with 500+ RW mods. Outliers and extremes are just that. It is the averages that matter.

And if almost no one plays your game without 100+ mods, then something is clearly missing, ESPECIALLY if half of those are not extra content (like, let's say Star Wars factions), but mechanical/gameplay fixes. Steel still burns FFS! The surgery mechanic is still retarded.

I know people that still play Freespace 2 vanilla, despite there being tons of campaings and mods for it. And when they do use mods, it's just 1 or 2 max. Same with Baldurs gate. Either vanilla or 1-2 mods. I have yet to meet anyone who plays Rimworld vanilla. In any forum or board I've beeen to, they might reccomend only the first vanilla run just so you see what the base game is, but rarely not even that.
And that is telling. If the gaming populace at large adpots the stance that 100+ mods are a bare minimum, then something ain't right.

A complete experience and game wouldn't require that. People would be using a few mods at average, not hunderds.

Quote from: RicRider on March 01, 2020, 08:21:53 AM
Good advice, for people. But you are literally talking to zombies on autopilot about their mission to expose the corrupt gaming industry that makes (insert victim/scapegoat here) look bad. At least when I read TrashMan's whining I get the impression he's on a mission to show how Indie game developers are 'criminals' who deserve to be exposed for the 'bad programmers' they are. I don't get the sense that he's a gamer; he's a grifter, plain and simple. A bit like some real world e celebs I know but is probably mad that he doesn't have his own platform and fan base that can create havoc on Twitter for him.

I am on no crusade and I have nothing agaisnt the indie industry or indie developers.

I play Rimworld vanilla.
and i feel your pain. :'(

A lot of people here got it backwards

Imo, what would be best for the game isn't implementing X mods, or creating any DLC (whether it's good or not, doesn't matter)

Rimworld doesn't need more content. I'm sure many would disagree with me here, but think about it - does the game *truly* *need* new, more content, to be playable, and enjoyable? No, not really. And by new, I mean things that aren't related to any already existing content. *cough* psycasts *cough*

The only thing Rimworld needs is to be polished, and have the current features be expanded upon
So, that's:
QoL changes - stuff such as Allow Tool, better hauling, more control when drafted (Achtung), Just Ignore Me Passing, Share The Load, Avoid Friendly Fire, rain removing filth (for performance issues), Cleaning Area & many more
Mechanical changes - Better pawn pathing, better raid AI (cause frankly, the way Tynan goes about killing killboxes is getting very questionable, solve the issue at it's core, not the symptoms)
Expansion on current features - Vehicles (add stuff in-between), Animals (prostheses, maybe Giddy up?), Medieval Tech

I understand Tynan's point about catering to not one person's taste, but many, and that we shouldn't look at the game in terms of "is it complete?"
But i do believe that changes along the lines of the ones i proposed would be deemed as good by ~90% of players, at least.
But more importantly - I think expanding on current features, rather than adding new ones, have a much bigger work-to-fun ratio. As in, Royalty is neat, sure, but the many little annoyances are still here, some of them have been talked about since almost day 1, and they do decrease the amount of fun people have when playing the game.

Polishing the game would make it much more enjoyable, than adding any DLC, no matter what kind.

You do realize the 1.1 update and the Royalty DLC are completely separate, correct?  The game IS being polished over time.

Quote from: Bozobub on March 04, 2020, 08:13:11 AM
You do realize the 1.1 update and the Royalty DLC are completely separate, correct?  The game IS being polished over time.

1.1 is neat, but nowhere close enough, there's a lot more work that needs to be done
Imagine if all the time spent on Royalty was redirected towards the update 1.1
That's my point - focus 100% on updates such as 1.1, not on DLCs such as Royalty.

Quote from: TrashMan on March 04, 2020, 05:40:59 AM
Would you like me to to call you a yesman? An ass-kissing braindead fanboy? I could and it would probably be more accurate then your unfounded assertions.

Also, nobody owes you anything. Even if I have any issues with the current version of RimWorld and the changes in 1.1, I'll reserve that criticism for a more appropriate time and place. Not immediately after release. Not to pump your gravy train of whining. I'm not about to let grifters like you use what criticisms I may have to make your illfounded points and use the data I've got irresponsibly.

I enjoy RimWorld 1.1. You sound like you don't and therefore my advice to you is to play something else or wait for mods to update. I wish this forum had a 'mute/block' feature so I could remove the negativity you bring to the table from my life, and also others could do the same thing so you wouldn't have your childish tantrums reinforced. But until that feature is available you'll see people like me disagreeing with you.

Quote from: TrashMan on March 04, 2020, 05:22:48 AM
Why is there such a severe lack of reading comprehension?

The number of mods available is NOT RELEVANT.

And if almost no one plays your game without 100+ mods

First of all, please stop with the personal attacks. It's not needed. If your argument was strong, people would be convinced.

Secondly, it seems the amount of mods is the core of your argument, but it is apparently only relevant when you talk about it, not when others make counter arguments.

Thirdly, you have no idea about the real statistics, and what you write there is clearly incorrect, merely by looking at downloads of mods from Nexus and Steam (I detest the latter and will never use it, but I digress).

Admittedly this is a guesstimate on my part, but it should be pretty solid based on amount of games sold vs amount of mods downloaded on Nexus/Steam: I reckon the vast majority are playing RimWorld with 0 mods. Some are playing with a handful of mods, let's say 5-20. Then you have a small minority with more mods than that. And a very tiny minority with 100+ mods.

*raises hand* Handful of mods here.  I use eight.

If I could, I'd play with 500 mods. Playing thru vanilla Royalty DLC, scratch that, I had to install the 4x speed up mod. I'm not saying it's unplayable without mods, it's just so much harder to do what you want without mods. For example, urgently haul items out of the rain, have your colonists not bleed out, having to click 3 tabs just to see basic info of a colonist, having to click thru every weapon to see which is best available, and so forth.

While I can "enjoy" the vanilla game, it really gets annoying without the handy shortcuts and extra content to have more fun time instead of repetitive micro managing.

Here's my beef with Royalty: What's the importance of the devs adopting some of the mod animals???

Quote from: RicRider on March 04, 2020, 09:45:39 AM

Quote from: TrashMan on March 04, 2020, 05:40:59 AM
Would you like me to to call you a yesman? An ass-kissing braindead fanboy? I could and it would probably be more accurate then your unfounded assertions.

Also, nobody owes you anything. Even if I have any issues with the current version of RimWorld and the changes in 1.1, I'll reserve that criticism for a more appropriate time and place. Not immediately after release. Not to pump your gravy train of whining. I'm not about to let grifters like you use what criticisms I may have to make your illfounded points and use the data I've got irresponsibly.

I enjoy RimWorld 1.1. You sound like you don't and therefore my advice to you is to play something else or wait for mods to update. I wish this forum had a 'mute/block' feature so I could remove the negativity you bring to the table from my life, and also others could do the same thing so you wouldn't have your childish tantrums reinforced. But until that feature is available you'll see people like me disagreeing with you.

Muh negativity
Muh mute
You sound like you belong on Tumblir

The game has been in development for how long? It's been out for how long? Tell me, when IS the appropriate time for criticism? Never?

Quote from: Pangaea on March 04, 2020, 10:32:38 AM
First of all, please stop with the personal attacks. It's not needed. If your argument was strong, people would be convinced.

If you truly believe that a strong argument is all that's needed to convince people, you're living in dellusion land. Real life doesn't work like that.

Quote
Secondly, it seems the amount of mods is the core of your argument, but it is apparently only relevant when you talk about it, not when others make counter arguments.

Nice stawman.
The amount of mods used at once necessary for a good game experience is the argument.

Quote
Thirdly, you have no idea about the real statistics, and what you write there is clearly incorrect, merely by looking at downloads of mods from Nexus and Steam (I detest the latter and will never use it, but I digress).

Pretty much every single person I've seen or talked to that played rimworld has 100+ mods. And I visit a LOT of boards/forums.
And also pretty much everyone agrees the game needs work.
About the only place where I find a different opinion is - unsurprisingly- here.

Quote
Admittedly this is a guesstimate on my part, but it should be pretty solid based on amount of games sold vs amount of mods downloaded on Nexus/Steam: I reckon the vast majority are playing RimWorld with 0 mods. Some are playing with a handful of mods, let's say 5-20. Then you have a small minority with more mods than that. And a very tiny minority with 100+ mods.

Everything is a guesstimate. And there are a lot of places to get mods from, and many are too lazy or don't even know how to use them or that they exist.

Quote from: TrashMan on March 05, 2020, 05:49:22 AM

Quote
Secondly, it seems the amount of mods is the core of your argument, but it is apparently only relevant when you talk about it, not when others make counter arguments.

Nice stawman.
The amount of mods used at once necessary for a good game experience is the argument.

Imho You are oversimplifying it quite a lot.
There is very big difference between relatively new/softcore rimworld player and veteran with few hundreds of hours.

Some who played rimworld for 20-30 hours - he will not be playing with mods. Rimworld has enough of content for such person to have a lot of stuff to learn and understand without added complexity of mods. Imho also all your QoL mods are not so important until you start to go into 20+ pawns or wherever your micromanagement skill stop working/become too annoying. 

For someone who played few hundred hours, watched few hundred hours of rimworld "science"/analysis/lets plays videos, playing without mods is plainly boring and annoying. Stuff that isn't that bothering when you have 5 pawns is really irritating when you have 40. Micromanagement is pain the ass to do all the time. All the QoL mods are a necessity. Also all content addition mods are extremely important. Those keeps are in game, giving us new/more stuff to explore and eliminating small irritations (which build up quite a lot with time).

In such a sandbox game, people who really like that will gravitate to modding quite "soon", when they will start to be bored with what vanilia has to offer, or exceed what Tynian planned as "resonable" colony size ;)

The same will imho go for DLC.
For someone who came back to rimworld after 20, 40, even 60 hours, this DLC imho will be great. Adding new, fun content, great mechanics.

For someone who played 200+ hours with 100+ mods, like Bad Hygiene, Save the Ship 2, Hospitality, Rim arsenal, Glitterworld tech, Rims of magic, elves, androids, rimtomics.... This DLC will feel empty and small and will be really pissed off when all his mods break. His "God knows how many" hours colony savegame will break. Rage time ;)



On the final note: I by myself, would rather have Tynian working on new features rather than QoL, at least as long as those QoL are provided by maintained mods.
Why? Cause this way I get even more new things to play with. This discovery and learning process is what keeps me in game.

The only thing this DLC messed up for me, was how out of the blue it felt for me. I had already mindset that Rimworld went into maintenance/dead phase, I had nice colony going, with few hundreds of mods, played like 60 hours on it and puff.... Broken. Patch 1.1 I didn't have the patience to fix it, most mods are already updated, few changes Tynian made I really like, so idc. New colony time. 

Funny...  I have ~400 hours in the game, only 8 mods, and I only started using mods relatively recently, and besides RTFuse, all are QoL.  It's almost as if insistence about how people play the game isn't particularly useful, isn't it?  Gawrsh.

Actually, "people" play the game in a wide variety of ways.  Stop pretending YOUR case defines anyone else's, because it doesn't.

Quote from: TrashMan on March 05, 2020, 05:39:27 AM
Muh negativity
Muh mute
You sound like you belong on Tumblir

The game has been in development for how long? It's been out for how long? Tell me, when IS the appropriate time for criticism? Never?

You just don't get it. There's this thing called 'first impressions'. There's also this thing called 'concessions'.

If you messed up your first impressions with someone, it's YOUR job to make concessions if you want them to have a discussion with you. I've already replied to several of your points on this and other threads. Take the time to read through them and RESPOND like an intelligent adult.

That still won't guarantee that you get to hear my criticism of RimWorld, because frankly it's none of your business. I'll post a bug report if I find any and I'll write a note to the devs if I think I have a valid criticism.

I'm not going to do what you're doing, which is creating drama on the forum, just so people talk negatively about the game and make you feel better for the miserable time you're having playing it. Get a grip dude and find something productive to do with your life.

Also were you paying attention mate? Half your posts were deleted yesterday on this thread and half of what you said was edited out of a post. Some of my posts were deleted too. Do you understand what that means and that you're pushing a fine line here? So you can bitch and wine about what you think is Tumblr behaviour whatever that means but you and I are both apparently on notice so my point about not having the functionality to mute you still stands whether you like it or not.

Quote from: ProfZelonka on March 05, 2020, 03:13:12 AM
If I could, I'd play with 500 mods. Playing thru vanilla Royalty DLC, scratch that, I had to install the 4x speed up mod. I'm not saying it's unplayable without mods, it's just so much harder to do what you want without mods. For example, urgently haul items out of the rain, have your colonists not bleed out, having to click 3 tabs just to see basic info of a colonist, having to click thru every weapon to see which is best available, and so forth.

While I can "enjoy" the vanilla game, it really gets annoying without the handy shortcuts and extra content to have more fun time instead of repetitive micro managing.

Here's my beef with Royalty: What's the importance of the devs adopting some of the mod animals???

that's it. im going to install mods. i was naive. no more!

Quote from: Elrood on March 05, 2020, 07:11:23 AM
Some who played rimworld for 20-30 hours - he will not be playing with mods. Rimworld has enough of content for such person to have a lot of stuff to learn and understand without added complexity of mods. Imho also all your QoL mods are not so important until you start to go into 20+ pawns or wherever your micromanagement skill stop working/become too annoying. 

For someone who played few hundred hours, watched few hundred hours of rimworld "science"/analysis/lets plays videos, playing without mods is plainly boring and annoying. Stuff that isn't that bothering when you have 5 pawns is really irritating when you have 40. Micromanagement is pain the ass to do all the time. All the QoL mods are a necessity. Also all content addition mods are extremely important. Those keeps are in game, giving us new/more stuff to explore and eliminating small irritations (which build up quite a lot with time).

You're making my point for me.
When you paly a lot and see the holes in the road and broken fences the mods fix, you never want to get back to unmodded.
People with experience see what is missing.
Of course someone who is new to the game and never tried caravan trading, won't notice the flaws in the system.

Quote
On the final note: I by myself, would rather have Tynian working on new features rather than QoL, at least as long as those QoL are provided by maintained mods.
Why? Cause this way I get even more new things to play with. This discovery and learning process is what keeps me in game.

A cop-out.
It's like saying you'd rather have the mayor do something else rather than fix the broken street lights, because theres people living near the broken lights that got frustrated waiting and started fixing them up themselves. Why do your job when there's some schmuck that will do it for free?

Quote from: RicRider on March 05, 2020, 07:28:28 AM
You just don't get it. There's this thing called 'first impressions'. There's also this thing called 'concessions'.

If you messed up your first impressions with someone, it's YOUR job to make concessions if you want them to have a discussion with you. I've already replied to several of your points on this and other threads. Take the time to read through them and RESPOND like an intelligent adult.

You start and I'll follow your example.

Quote
I'm not going to do what you're doing, which is creating drama on the forum, just so people talk negatively about the game and make you feel better for the miserable time you're having playing it. Get a grip dude and find something productive to do with your life.

Anything you don't like is drama? Good to know.

Quote
Also were you paying attention mate? Half your posts were deleted yesterday on this thread and half of what you said was edited out of a post. Some of my posts were deleted too. Do you understand what that means and that you're pushing a fine line here? So you can bitch and wine about what you think is Tumblr behaviour whatever that means but you and I are both apparently on notice so my point about not having the functionality to mute you still stands whether you like it or not.

You always have the option to - GASP - ignore my posts.
A novel concept, I know.
And for all the complaints about posting here not being productive, you are wasting your time responding. So just ignore me if you don't like what I write. I'll do the same to you. That I can guarantee.

Quote from: Bozobub on March 05, 2020, 07:18:26 AM
Funny...  I have ~400 hours in the game, only 8 mods, and I only started using mods relatively recently, and besides RTFuse, all are QoL.  It's almost as if insistence about how people play the game isn't particularly useful, isn't it?  Gawrsh.

Actually, "people" play the game in a wide variety of ways.  Stop pretending YOUR case defines anyone else's, because it doesn't.

I never said my case defines everyone elses.
How you choose to play is your concern, and it doesn't change the fact that the vanilla game is lacking quite a few things.

Quote from: TrashMan on March 09, 2020, 07:01:49 AM

Quote from: Bozobub on March 05, 2020, 07:18:26 AM
Funny...  I have ~400 hours in the game, only 8 mods, and I only started using mods relatively recently, and besides RTFuse, all are QoL.  It's almost as if insistence about how people play the game isn't particularly useful, isn't it?  Gawrsh.

Actually, "people" play the game in a wide variety of ways.  Stop pretending YOUR case defines anyone else's, because it doesn't.

I never said my case defines everyone elses.
How you choose to play is your concern, and it doesn't change the fact that the vanilla game is lacking quite a few things.

You made general claims about what "people" want in the game.  Try again.

I've logged almost 3000 hours in the base game never using a mod (well I lie a bit - I did use one that did a time-lapse of my base building).  The game feels complete to me.
I doubt I'm in the minority with that feeling.

Quote from: TrashMan on March 09, 2020, 06:50:58 AM

Quote from: Elrood on March 05, 2020, 07:11:23 AM
Some who played rimworld for 20-30 hours - he will not be playing with mods. Rimworld has enough of content for such person to have a lot of stuff to learn and understand without added complexity of mods. Imho also all your QoL mods are not so important until you start to go into 20+ pawns or wherever your micromanagement skill stop working/become too annoying. 

For someone who played few hundred hours, watched few hundred hours of rimworld "science"/analysis/lets plays videos, playing without mods is plainly boring and annoying. Stuff that isn't that bothering when you have 5 pawns is really irritating when you have 40. Micromanagement is pain the ass to do all the time. All the QoL mods are a necessity. Also all content addition mods are extremely important. Those keeps are in game, giving us new/more stuff to explore and eliminating small irritations (which build up quite a lot with time).

You're making my point for me.
When you paly a lot and see the holes in the road and broken fences the mods fix, you never want to get back to unmodded.
People with experience see what is missing.
Of course someone who is new to the game and never tried caravan trading, won't notice the flaws in the system.

Quote
On the final note: I by myself, would rather have Tynian working on new features rather than QoL, at least as long as those QoL are provided by maintained mods.
Why? Cause this way I get even more new things to play with. This discovery and learning process is what keeps me in game.

A cop-out.
It's like saying you'd rather have the mayor do something else rather than fix the broken street lights, because theres people living near the broken lights that got frustrated waiting and started fixing them up themselves. Why do your job when there's some schmuck that will do it for free?

I kind of make your point ;) but not really. I gave you few examples of two complete opposite reference points. There is hell lot of in between. All of them are valid from their own point of reference. Sure, you (and to some degree me) feels that vanilia rimworld is lacking when playing without certain mods, but i will bet a lot on that we will diverge a lot on what exactly is lacking. Not to mention all the crowd who is happy with rimworld the way it is in vanilia - not everyone want to figure out tech tree bigger than civilization and have 30 options for a simple gun (like me).
Actually let me try to distill what i wanted to say: What you think is missing is what you got so used to, you treat it as must have. Thing is, this crap is so subjective, it either isn't really missing, or at least fixing it would mean something more fun to play with would not get into the game - from point of view of bigger crowd. And Tynian need to find stuff that will improve fun most for as much people as possible. You probably think he failed. Imho a lot more people think he got it kinda right, me included.

As for copout fragment - you are comparing making entertainment with basic infrastructure maintenance. Apples and oranges. When it comes to entertainment i want max value of said entertainment. And if that means mods fixing the game while game designer has time to make more fun stuff, i will vote for more fun. Especially when we already have those fixes and imho fixes are less fun than more content to play with, at least at the moment. Don't make a mistake, I'm really grateful for people finding time to tinker with this stuff, it does help - and as long as it is fun/rewarding for them i don't see a problem with it.

Again comes to different view on the same stuff. ;).

Exactly so.  In fact, going by Workshop downloads, the vast majority of players play with zero or very few mods.

Insistence about what "people" want or do, without a shred of evidence for your claims, simply won't work.  Not ever.

Quote from: Bozobub on March 09, 2020, 07:47:16 AM
You made general claims about what "people" want in the game.  Try again.

Most people. In my experience. I've talked to thousands and the overwhelming majority mirrors my thoughts. And that is further confirmed by gameplay.
These forums are the least critical ones I have been on, but that is usually the case of official forums.

Quote from: Elrood on March 09, 2020, 10:19:53 AM
Actually let me try to distill what i wanted to say: What you think is missing is what you got so used to, you treat it as must have. Thing is, this crap is so subjective, it either isn't really missing, or at least fixing it would mean something more fun to play with would not get into the game - from point of view of bigger crowd. And Tynian need to find stuff that will improve fun most for as much people as possible. You probably think he failed. Imho a lot more people think he got it kinda right, me included.

No.
If anything, it is realizing just how flawed something is when you see a fixed version of it. Who in their right mind would want to go back to an inferior product?
If all you eat is porridge, and never ate a complete meal, how can you know what you're missing? How can you know your meal is lacking? Or is wanting a decent and well balanced meal being demanding and "just subjective, just what you got used to"?

After so long and so many updates, some major problems are still there. Content, that was alluded to but was never implemented (a lot of early techs and stuff was mention by Ty himself)
There is nothing subjective about metal STILL burning.
There is nothing subjective about a medical system that makes no damn sense (I'm operating on your leg. Ups, there goes you eye!) and needs mods to fix.
There is nothing subjective about clear technological and logical gaps (pack animals -> starship. You'd think there be something in between.)
His insistance of making killboxes necessary, then whacking the entire premise with a hammer with swarms and nerfs.
I can go on and on.
There is nothing subjective about that.

Ty can take it easy because he knows there are modders out there that will compensate for his failings. The funny thing I wouldn't even mind it as much, if he were just implement some of these things into the game.

Quote
When it comes to entertainment i want max value of said entertainment. And if that means mods fixing the game while game designer has time to make more fun stuff, i will vote for more fun.

Which just shows you are a man without any principles who happily rewards bad practices.

Quote from: Bozobub on March 09, 2020, 08:09:34 PM
Exactly so.  In fact, going by Workshop downloads, the vast majority of players play with zero or very few mods.

Not sure about that. It can well be that the peoples playing the game a lot are using mods and many peoples who are either not playing much or have only played a little or stopped playing have not used mods. The majority of all game owners usually is dormant, never played the game or only played the game a few hours then stopped.

Like only 24% of Civilization 6 steam players ever won a single game and there's comparable stats for other games. Unfortunately as Rimworld does not use achievements we don't have good data here (or do we?). My guess is that the ratio of peoples ever having used mods is way higher in the more active player-base.

There is also the local mod folder. A lot of people I know don't even use the workshop because of steam shenanigans and internet connection nuking their modlist.

Also, people that never used mods don't really know what they are missing. Hindsight is 20/20.

Quote from: TrashMan on March 10, 2020, 05:11:18 AM

Quote from: Elrood on March 09, 2020, 10:19:53 AM
Actually let me try to distill what i wanted to say: What you think is missing is what you got so used to, you treat it as must have. Thing is, this crap is so subjective, it either isn't really missing, or at least fixing it would mean something more fun to play with would not get into the game - from point of view of bigger crowd. And Tynian need to find stuff that will improve fun most for as much people as possible. You probably think he failed. Imho a lot more people think he got it kinda right, me included.

No.
If anything, it is realizing just how flawed something is when you see a fixed version of it. Who in their right mind would want to go back to an inferior product?
If all you eat is porridge, and never ate a complete meal, how can you know what you're missing? How can you know your meal is lacking? Or is wanting a decent and well balanced meal being demanding and "just subjective, just what you got used to"?

After so long and so many updates, some major problems are still there. Content, that was alluded to but was never implemented (a lot of early techs and stuff was mention by Ty himself)
There is nothing subjective about metal STILL burning.
There is nothing subjective about a medical system that makes no damn sense (I'm operating on your leg. Ups, there goes you eye!) and needs mods to fix.
There is nothing subjective about clear technological and logical gaps (pack animals -> starship. You'd think there be something in between.)
His insistance of making killboxes necessary, then whacking the entire premise with a hammer with swarms and nerfs.
I can go on and on.
There is nothing subjective about that.

Ty can take it easy because he knows there are modders out there that will compensate for his failings. The funny thing I wouldn't even mind it as much, if he were just implement some of these things into the game.

Using your own food analogy - there are people who like cheeseburger or fish and chips more than full course meal from 5 star restaurant. And then there are so many variants of said 5 star meal that most of us will diverge massively on what we want.

What I'm trying and failing to convey to you is: Not everyone is bothered by what you think as problems.
Actually from the list you create I don't care about any of it. None of it is worth time to fix from my point of view.
My list would go in direction of making systems similar/identical to VGA, Giddy up, Run and Gun, Hospitality, Bad Hygiene, Save the Ship 2, few more things i won't be bothered to remember right now.
Complete opposite to what you would want. Because imho it would make game way better than fixing what you listed.
And I bet there are tone of people who would not agree with both of us, would partially agree, would thing we are mad because they are fine in vanillia....
This is why I say its so subjective.


I have not said a word about what I think about your worldview, so please refrain from commenting on my principals or stuff like that in future.

Quote from: TrashMan on March 10, 2020, 05:28:33 AM
There is also the local mod folder. A lot of people I know don't even use the workshop because of steam shenanigans and internet connection nuking their modlist.

Also, people that never used mods don't really know what they are missing. Hindsight is 20/20.

a) You still have to download the mods.

b) You're making assumptions you cannot support again.

You're going nowhere with this.  Serial insistence does not generate existence.

No, you are not the only one. Almost everything added in the DLC was already implemented in mods. The funny thing is:
a) mods are of higher quality than the DLC
b) I don't have to pay twenty smackaroos for mods
c) mods usually don't break the rest of the modlist
Thanks a bunch, I'll stay on 1.0. The DLC is almost Horse Armor-tier addon - if installing Horse Armor forced you to update all your mods, that is.

Quote from: Bozobub on March 10, 2020, 07:16:10 AM
a) You still have to download the mods.

But not from steam.
mods for Rimworld can be found everywhere. Including mod packs.

Quote
b) You're making assumptions you cannot support again.
You're going nowhere with this.  Serial insistence does not generate existence.

Wut?

Quote from: Elrood on March 10, 2020, 06:29:36 AM
Using your own food analogy - there are people who like cheeseburger or fish and chips more than full course meal from 5 star restaurant. And then there are so many variants of said 5 star meal that most of us will diverge massively on what we want.

If you want to go deeper into food analogies- most people who eat junk food realize and admit it is junk food.
And in term of nutritional value a meal can be analyzed. It's not a matter of taste.

Quote
What I'm trying and failing to convey to you is: Not everyone is bothered by what you think as problems.

That also holds true for real problems. Some people do no care or do not know better. The existence of people who do not care does not invalidate the problem.

Quote
Actually from the list you create I don't care about any of it. None of it is worth time to fix from my point of view.

You do not care. And that is your only defense. Because you know you logically cannot defend such flaws and oversights. And some of those would take literally 5 minutes to fix. But you still think it's not worth it? That just awarding lazyness.

Quote
My list would go in direction of making systems similar/identical to VGA, Giddy up, Run and Gun, Hospitality, Bad Hygiene, Save the Ship 2, few more things i won't be bothered to remember right now.
Complete opposite to what you would want.

How is that opposite? Those are the EXACT SAME THINGS I listed earlier. I would WANT all of those things implemented into core (but run and gun needs nerfing to default values)... except Save the Ship 2, that could be left for an expansion/DLC.

Quote
And I bet there are tone of people who would not agree with both of us, would partially agree, would thing we are mad because they are fine in vanillia....
This is why I say its so subjective.

There isn't a subject on the planet, no matte how objective, that will have everyone agree. There are still people who believe in flat earth.
Universal agreement is not necessary. Proper argumentation is. There has to be more than "I like this" or "I hate this" behind such decisions. Cost/benefit analysis. Balance impact. Gameplay impact. Narrative impact. Common sense.

Quote from: TrashMan on March 10, 2020, 04:55:34 AM

Quote from: Bozobub on March 09, 2020, 07:47:16 AM
You made general claims about what "people" want in the game.  Try again.

Most people. In my experience. I've talked to thousands and the overwhelming majority mirrors my thoughts. And that is further confirmed by gameplay.

Quote from: TrashMan on March 10, 2020, 02:01:19 PM
Universal agreement is not necessary. Proper argumentation is. Common sense.

Well if anything good has come of this off-the-rails-argument it's that it made me grin.
Emphasis mine of course.

Maybe pick a different hill to die on?
Maybe something else might be more important to you?
Just a thought, Friendly/Empathetic advice even.

Sounds like Tynan could send out a survey to everyone who's bought the game and we could really see what the players actually enjoy and what they don't enjoy.

Not that Tynan is likely to see this post as you guys have been bickering over "well he said" "well I said" for 6 pages..

Quote from: Boboid on March 11, 2020, 08:49:43 AM

Quote from: TrashMan on March 10, 2020, 04:55:34 AM

Quote from: Bozobub on March 09, 2020, 07:47:16 AM
You made general claims about what "people" want in the game.  Try again.

Most people. In my experience. I've talked to thousands and the overwhelming majority mirrors my thoughts. And that is further confirmed by gameplay.

Quote from: TrashMan on March 10, 2020, 02:01:19 PM
Universal agreement is not necessary. Proper argumentation is. Common sense.

Well if anything good has come of this off-the-rails-argument it's that it made me grin.
Emphasis mine of course.

Maybe pick a different hill to die on?
Maybe something else might be more important to you?
Just a thought, Friendly/Empathetic advice even.

You see a contradiction where there is none.

Nope.  Your insistence, no matter how emphatic or voluminous, still doesn't magically generate existence.  Nor are people who disagree with you necessarily uninformed, misinformed, or even incorrect.

Be exactly as disappointed as you feel is appropriate.  That still defines nothing for anyone else but you.  You can stop trying to insist what "people" want, since you have nothing but unsupported/able anecdotes as backup; lose the plural, buster.  No one is impressed.

Oh, by the by?  No, you haven't interviewed "thousands of people" re: their opinions on this subject.  Transparent hyperbole isn't going to help you here.

Quote from: Bozobub on March 10, 2020, 07:16:10 AM
Serial insistence does not generate existence.

I'm keeping this quote for later use

Truth be told, the dlc's not as content filled as I was hoping for 20 dollars, I was hoping for something truly expansive or revolutionary like Save Our ships 2, but that's just me.

Quote from: TrashMan on February 26, 2020, 04:01:08 AM
People complained that the game is unfinished, and frankly..it kinda feels like it. There are so many holes in the game that I cannot imagine ever playing without 100+ mods, simply for all the QoL improvements and adding missing content. What is missing, you may ask?

This game is so large, with a surface area this big of course there will be an area that feels like it could have more detail. Someone can only do so much.

RW was also developed with mods specifically in mind.  If you predefine too much content, you limit what mods can do, that simple.

Can RW improve?  Definitely!  Is "vanilla" RW a complete game?  Yes.  Arguing otherwise is pointless; far too many people use few (or even no) mods for that to work.

Furthermore, in many, if not most cases where people are carrying on about content they feel is missing, it's hideously bloated BS I'd NEVER want, myself.  Subjectivity is like that... ::)

Quote from: Bozobub on March 12, 2020, 07:33:17 AM
Nope.  Your insistence, no matter how emphatic or voluminous, still doesn't magically generate existence.

Existence of what?

Quote
Be exactly as disappointed as you feel is appropriate.  That still defines nothing for anyone else but you.  You can stop trying to insist what "people" want, since you have nothing but unsupported/able anecdotes as backup; lose the plural, buster.  No one is impressed.

Oh, by the by?  No, you haven't interviewed "thousands of people" re: their opinions on this subject.  Transparent hyperbole isn't going to help you here.

Feelings are irrelevant. Fact are. And factually, you cannot defend half the stuff that goes on.
We can discuss taste until the cows come home and never agree because our taste buds are geared differently. But if the food is prepared on a dirty floor crawling with bacteria, taste ultimatively matters little. You can like the sewage burger all you want, just don't claim it's not covered in shit.

So go ahead. Defend these design decisions. Explain to me how operating on the leg and ending up cutting out an eyes makes sense or makes for good gameplay?
Explain to me how a clear and obvious gap in transportation and tech levels is good?
Explain to me how a broken raid system is good?
Explain to me why simple, logical, widely-known solutions dating to the bronze age aren't avilable to the colonists?

Quote from: Bozobub on March 16, 2020, 07:47:41 PM
RW was also developed with mods specifically in mind.  If you predefine too much content, you limit what mods can do, that simple.

Can RW improve?  Definitely!  Is "vanilla" RW a complete game?  Yes.  Arguing otherwise is pointless; far too many people use few (or even no) mods for that to work.

Furthermore, in many, if not most cases where people are carrying on about content they feel is missing, it's hideously bloated BS I'd NEVER want, myself.  Subjectivity is like that... ::)

A cop-out. An excuse to deliver as little and polish as little, under the guise of benevolence.

People joke about the "Bethesdea approach" - make a basic framework and let poor saps provide the best content and polish and fix your mistakes. It's no joke, unfortunately.

RW is a "complete" incomplete game.

You can believe exactly as you like, that drives nothing for anyone else but you.  Deal with it; that's how subjective opinion works, no matter how bunched and twisted your undies get.

Quote from: Bozobub on March 17, 2020, 07:21:32 AM
You can believe exactly as you like, that drives nothing for anyone else but you.  Deal with it; that's how subjective opinion works, no matter how bunched and twisted your undies get.

Expect when asked to defend your position, you got nothing. No argument. No proper defense. No proper reasoning.
Only jelling "it's subjective."
The last resort of the desperate.

In a word, 'bullshit".  We've been over this; simple denial won't negate the fact that a) yes, I've explained myself perfectly well, and b) you're a whining git.

It's all there in the thread for anyone to read, insist what you like but that's not going to change. Lose the posturing and self-important entitlement; you're merely embarrassing yourself.

Whether or not you care to agree, your opinon remains *opinion*, and you're done here.  Good day to you; feel free to snivel all you like by yourself.

Still in denial.
Still no answers to my questions. Shouldn't be too hard to answer them if you are so correct.

Here, a little something just for you.

Some people believe that the update is bad.
Some people don't.
Hooray, crisis solved! Now we can be functioning members of society!

Disclaimer: I did not read the full list of comments. I also really appreciate the game in a general sense.

That being said, I do have to agree that I'm not overly exited about the DLC (I'm still on the fence on buying it). It does indeed feel over priced. And to be honest yes, most of what it does is pull functionality into the core game that is mostly inspired on already existing mods, while ignoring many aspects of the base game  that desperately need some attention. The first Rimworld DLC could have been so much more exiting and now I'm left wondering if A lot of things that felt like they were missing in the game for a long time will ever be added if not in the form of mods.

Another thing that kinda bothers me about this DLC, it feels like it comes with it's own somewhat unique playstyle, while I always believed that Rimword shines when it comes to fine tuning for the thing you as a player want to experience.

Some things that I feel should have gotten some kind of improvement instead are (but not limited to): early game / tribal content, expansion of the tech tree, more furniture (if only for decoration), more joy objects, more late game content (advanced gear / glitter world tech, more diverse biomes, new (alien) races, vehicles, more buildable structures / traps for base defence, alternative story tellers.

Tech tree, caravans, trading menus, stockpiles menus could use some help.