Ludeon Forums

RimWorld => General Discussion => Topic started by: Grubfist on July 23, 2021, 06:42:06 PM

Title: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: Grubfist on July 23, 2021, 06:42:06 PM
I really would like to play tribal tunnelers with Idealogy, ideally ones that don't have to go outside in their day-to-day life (so no anima tree usage whatsoever) but I have one major problem:

Insectoids feel crazy overtuned to me, and since this isn't a widespread complaint, I'ma assume there's strategies I just don't know.

Ever since infestation got added as an event, I've had trouble building mountain bases because there's simply been no way to fight them. They have never felt balanced and always felt like an impossible-to-overcome deterrant to stop you building inside mountains. So I stopped building bases in mountains after a few failed tries to sustain mountain colonies.

Right now when I have an early colony with 5 tribals and I get an infestation, I get ~6 megaspiders. By comparison, if I get mechanoids, I get ~2 scythers. One megaspider is MUCH harder for me to fight than 1 scyther is, so this is very confusing for me.

My typical strategy for fighting insectoids is to give someone a blunt weapon and heavy armor, position them in a doorway, and have three people with guns behind them firing into them. This strategy causes extreme casualties and usually takes several reloads before it doesn't cause a total colony wipe.

I am aware of two major bug-fighting strategies. One is to use Vertigo Pulse, which is extremely effective, but relies on having a psycaster with vertigo pulse, something that is absolutely not guaranteed. The other is the whole "burn them out" strategy, but I've never had a colony where that strategy is viable without destroying too much of the colony for my colonists to survive and setting up such a colony seems like an extreme end-game scenario to me.

I don't want to turn insectoids off, and all the other raids seem appropriately scaled, but every time I fight insectoids there's just WAY too many of them for an enemy that always fights to the death of every unit. Games where I last longer the insectoids often outnumber my colonists 3 to 1 counting only the megaspiders. I really just don't know how I am supposed to deal with them.

So my question is this:
How do you guys consistently kill hives, before you've researched electricity, without usually losing any colonists?

Important note: I do not use mods, and won't be persuaded to use mods. I need only vanilla strategies.
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: Mirador on July 23, 2021, 08:32:20 PM
Hello!

There is many tactics with insects but I must admit that I personnally never really had infestation so early that I could not defend myself.

Usually, I make sure to have a pawn with atleast a passion in intellect and research around this order: complexe furniture, stonecutting, complexe clothing, smithing (sometime I skip this one), electricity.

Infestation won't spawn that early unless it's a quest.

Meanwhile, I try to get my hand on advanced weapon, either from raider or seller. A SMG or chain shotgun can do miracle when you start and still use recursive bow.

That being say, if I have to fight, like you, I place my pawn at door step. more or less 3 melee and 2 shooter just behind. Their equipments will depend on what I had that chance to get my hand on. If you find a flak jacket or vest on one raider, give it to your main fighter (the one in the middle alway seem to receive more attack). Try to give powerful but short range weapon to your shooters.

It depend on soo many thing. If you use ideology and have slave, I guess you can send them in the front to take the bulk of the damage. Combat in darkness precept will also help you a lot in such situation. Supremacist and Raider ideology have strong melee / ranged specialist that should help a lot.

You can also tame multiple attack animals and assign a zone just in front of the door so they can take the bulk of the damage while you're colonists shoot just behind them.

Which weapons do you have usually access at this stage of the game? Do you have smithing ? Do you have a good crafter? A decent longsword or mace both have enough armor penetration to get through their armor. Primitive ranged weapon (any bows) are usually bad suited for this kind of battle.
 
Otherwise, by far the easier way to deal with it once you have IED is to double wall the undermountain area with stone block, a stone door and simply place an IED incendiary trap.

Another trick is to keep the area at -18 celcius. It will prevent them from spawning there. But those solutions need electricity.
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: zgrssd on July 24, 2021, 06:45:55 AM
Infestation are not OP. They die like any other raid.
What are your armors?
What are your weapons?

Not unless you wait for seasons for them to spiral out of control first! And if you do that, you can always pack up and resettle the same hex.

One way to avoid infestations is to have the base be very cool. Like "need a Parka just to work" cool. This might cause issues with "Sleeping in the Cold", but it is a valid tactic to deter them.
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: Grubfist on July 24, 2021, 07:10:58 PM
Infestation are not OP. They die like any other raid.
What are your armors?
What are your weapons?

Not unless you wait for seasons for them to spiral out of control first! And if you do that, you can always pack up and resettle the same hex.

One way to avoid infestations is to have the base be very cool. Like "need a Parka just to work" cool. This might cause issues with "Sleeping in the Cold", but it is a valid tactic to deter them.
Well it depends. Most of the time when I first encounter them, I have pants, shirts, and maybe some capes with bows and clubs for weapons.

But my big fear revolves around later-game experiences where the people in plasteel plate armor with warhammers and teams of chain-shotgun people behind them not even being able to put a dent in the starting population of a hive.
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: zgrssd on July 24, 2021, 09:52:42 PM
Infestation are not OP. They die like any other raid.
What are your armors?
What are your weapons?

Not unless you wait for seasons for them to spiral out of control first! And if you do that, you can always pack up and resettle the same hex.

One way to avoid infestations is to have the base be very cool. Like "need a Parka just to work" cool. This might cause issues with "Sleeping in the Cold", but it is a valid tactic to deter them.
Well it depends. Most of the time when I first encounter them, I have pants, shirts, and maybe some capes with bows and clubs for weapons.

But my big fear revolves around later-game experiences where the people in plasteel plate armor with warhammers and teams of chain-shotgun people behind them not even being able to put a dent in the starting population of a hive.
Capes are neither good armor nor good thermal resistance. They have a glaring lack of Blunt protection
For armors, you want dusters made from leather or full plate armor.

As for the lategame: Initial Infestations scale to colony wealth and population, same as all others. You success is what makes them powerfull.
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: Grubfist on July 26, 2021, 06:20:18 PM
Infestation are not OP. They die like any other raid.
What are your armors?
What are your weapons?

Not unless you wait for seasons for them to spiral out of control first! And if you do that, you can always pack up and resettle the same hex.

One way to avoid infestations is to have the base be very cool. Like "need a Parka just to work" cool. This might cause issues with "Sleeping in the Cold", but it is a valid tactic to deter them.
Well it depends. Most of the time when I first encounter them, I have pants, shirts, and maybe some capes with bows and clubs for weapons.

But my big fear revolves around later-game experiences where the people in plasteel plate armor with warhammers and teams of chain-shotgun people behind them not even being able to put a dent in the starting population of a hive.
Capes are neither good armor nor good thermal resistance. They have a glaring lack of Blunt protection
For armors, you want dusters made from leather or full plate armor.

As for the lategame: Initial Infestations scale to colony wealth and population, same as all others. You success is what makes them powerfull.

I appreciate the tips, but I also know how things scale. My issue is that compared to other raids on the same colony, Megaspiders alone are usually more numerous than enemy soldiers. And a single megaspider, alone, is more difficult to fight - even with blunt damage focus, than three enemy soldiers combined.
I guess the issue I have is that when fighting bugs, melee is guaranteed. When I am fighting literally any other raid type, my goal is to whittle it down with sniper rifles before it can get close enough to be a threat. Infestations and mechanoids are usually the only raids where any colonists get hurt, but mechanoids feel conquerable, while infestations feel like I just need to get everyone in a caravan and leave.
I suppose what I really want to know is how to engage 3-4 megaspiders per colonist in melee without anyone losing their eyeballs or limbs.
I'm currently hoping my tunneler tribe will be able to use the leader combat bonus and melee specialists to do it, but starting out, my tribe is too small to justify having a melee specialist since they have so many restrictions on work type and we need a LOT of mining, growing, and constructing being done.
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: Mirador on July 26, 2021, 07:27:55 PM
Infestation are not OP. They die like any other raid.
What are your armors?
What are your weapons?

Not unless you wait for seasons for them to spiral out of control first! And if you do that, you can always pack up and resettle the same hex.

One way to avoid infestations is to have the base be very cool. Like "need a Parka just to work" cool. This might cause issues with "Sleeping in the Cold", but it is a valid tactic to deter them.
Well it depends. Most of the time when I first encounter them, I have pants, shirts, and maybe some capes with bows and clubs for weapons.

But my big fear revolves around later-game experiences where the people in plasteel plate armor with warhammers and teams of chain-shotgun people behind them not even being able to put a dent in the starting population of a hive.
Capes are neither good armor nor good thermal resistance. They have a glaring lack of Blunt protection
For armors, you want dusters made from leather or full plate armor.

As for the lategame: Initial Infestations scale to colony wealth and population, same as all others. You success is what makes them powerfull.

I appreciate the tips, but I also know how things scale. My issue is that compared to other raids on the same colony, Megaspiders alone are usually more numerous than enemy soldiers. And a single megaspider, alone, is more difficult to fight - even with blunt damage focus, than three enemy soldiers combined.
I guess the issue I have is that when fighting bugs, melee is guaranteed. When I am fighting literally any other raid type, my goal is to whittle it down with sniper rifles before it can get close enough to be a threat. Infestations and mechanoids are usually the only raids where any colonists get hurt, but mechanoids feel conquerable, while infestations feel like I just need to get everyone in a caravan and leave.
I suppose what I really want to know is how to engage 3-4 megaspiders per colonist in melee without anyone losing their eyeballs or limbs.
I'm currently hoping my tunneler tribe will be able to use the leader combat bonus and melee specialists to do it, but starting out, my tribe is too small to justify having a melee specialist since they have so many restrictions on work type and we need a LOT of mining, growing, and constructing being done.

3-4 Megaspider per colonist while you haven't researched electricity seem a lot.
Do you still have 5 pawns at this stage? So, we are talking about 15-20 mega spider infestation here, right?

The first infestation I get are usually 1-2 hive, 3 max. And each Hive spawn 1 or 2 megaspider plus few smaller insect. No more than that.

Maybe your colony wealth somehow get out of control? How old is the colony? What is your wealth ? Which difficulty level ? Do you use any mod?

Anyway, at this stage, all you can do is fight at the door. You can use tamed animal (Just zone the area in front of the door and force all your animals that can go there. For exemple, elephants are pretty good damage soaker if you can get your hand on one) so it's not your colonist that is going to lose eyeball or limbs. =oP
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: Grubfist on July 26, 2021, 08:00:11 PM
Infestation are not OP. They die like any other raid.
What are your armors?
What are your weapons?

Not unless you wait for seasons for them to spiral out of control first! And if you do that, you can always pack up and resettle the same hex.

One way to avoid infestations is to have the base be very cool. Like "need a Parka just to work" cool. This might cause issues with "Sleeping in the Cold", but it is a valid tactic to deter them.
Well it depends. Most of the time when I first encounter them, I have pants, shirts, and maybe some capes with bows and clubs for weapons.

But my big fear revolves around later-game experiences where the people in plasteel plate armor with warhammers and teams of chain-shotgun people behind them not even being able to put a dent in the starting population of a hive.
Capes are neither good armor nor good thermal resistance. They have a glaring lack of Blunt protection
For armors, you want dusters made from leather or full plate armor.

As for the lategame: Initial Infestations scale to colony wealth and population, same as all others. You success is what makes them powerfull.

I appreciate the tips, but I also know how things scale. My issue is that compared to other raids on the same colony, Megaspiders alone are usually more numerous than enemy soldiers. And a single megaspider, alone, is more difficult to fight - even with blunt damage focus, than three enemy soldiers combined.
I guess the issue I have is that when fighting bugs, melee is guaranteed. When I am fighting literally any other raid type, my goal is to whittle it down with sniper rifles before it can get close enough to be a threat. Infestations and mechanoids are usually the only raids where any colonists get hurt, but mechanoids feel conquerable, while infestations feel like I just need to get everyone in a caravan and leave.
I suppose what I really want to know is how to engage 3-4 megaspiders per colonist in melee without anyone losing their eyeballs or limbs.
I'm currently hoping my tunneler tribe will be able to use the leader combat bonus and melee specialists to do it, but starting out, my tribe is too small to justify having a melee specialist since they have so many restrictions on work type and we need a LOT of mining, growing, and constructing being done.

3-4 Megaspider per colonist while you haven't researched electricity seem a lot.
Do you still have 5 pawns at this stage? So, we are talking about 15-20 mega spider infestation here, right?

The first infestation I get are usually 1-2 hive, 3 max. And each Hive spawn 1 or 2 megaspider plus few smaller insect. No more than that.

Maybe your colony wealth somehow get out of control? How old is the colony? What is your wealth ? Which difficulty level ? Do you use any mod?

Anyway, at this stage, all you can do is fight at the door. You can use tamed animal (Just zone the area in front of the door and force all your animals that can go there. For exemple, elephants are pretty good damage soaker if you can get your hand on one) so it's not your colonist that is going to lose eyeball or limbs. =oP
The latest infestation that made me have to reload a save was on a fairly early-game tribal society. I had maybe ~2800 silver, and like 3000 wool adding value because I raise sheeps because the tribe has the Rancher idealogy. I can't really destroy the wool, so it accumulates extremely fast. I got 4 hives, each with about 3 megaspiders, in addition to spelopedes and megascarabs. When I reloaded, I got a mechanoid raid instead, at the same time, with the same wealth, which consisted of exactly two scythers, both of which died easily to bows before ever closing to melee range. I had 5 tribals and 1 slave. I did not have smithing or electricity. Usually in tribal playthroughs, my first 2-3 years are spent getting the food supply stable.

The thing that makes them feel imbalanced to me is primarily comparing them to other raids. When my pirate raids contain 3 enemies (who flee after 2 are defeated), my tribal raids contain 6 people (who flee after 3 or 4 are defeated), my mechanoid raids contain 2 of the weaker mechanoids (who fight to the death), why do infestations contain ~12 megaspiders and ~20 total bugs when they ALSO all fight to the death? If it's because they stay still: That would make sense if they didn't expand their hives faster than my people can recover from their injuries, but that's not the case.
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: Mirador on July 26, 2021, 08:29:34 PM
You can see your total wealth in history tab.

Well, if you are 2-3 years in, 4 hives is not to be unexpected to say the truth.

Also, which storyteller do you use? Randy give variable raid strength from 50% to 150% points to raid.

So maybe, you got unlucky and had a 150% raid strength the first time with the insectoid.

That being say, I agree with you that 2 scythers is much easier than 12 megaspiders ^^;
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: Grubfist on July 26, 2021, 09:35:05 PM
You can see your total wealth in history tab.

Well, if you are 2-3 years in, 4 hives is not to be unexpected to say the truth.

Also, which storyteller do you use? Randy give variable raid strength from 50% to 150% points to raid.

So maybe, you got unlucky and had a 150% raid strength the first time with the insectoid.

That being say, I agree with you that 2 scythers is much easier than 12 megaspiders ^^;
I definitely always pick Randy, but insectoids in general always seem to be signfificantly more numerous than much easier enemies in the same colonies, so I feel like it's more than that. For a while I played with infestations off entirely because of how broken they've always felt to me, but I'm trying to not turn off the number one main threat for a tunneling faction (especially since they demand insect meat!)
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: Mirador on July 26, 2021, 09:48:31 PM
You can see your total wealth in history tab.

Well, if you are 2-3 years in, 4 hives is not to be unexpected to say the truth.

Also, which storyteller do you use? Randy give variable raid strength from 50% to 150% points to raid.

So maybe, you got unlucky and had a 150% raid strength the first time with the insectoid.

That being say, I agree with you that 2 scythers is much easier than 12 megaspiders ^^;
I definitely always pick Randy, but insectoids in general always seem to be signfificantly more numerous than much easier enemies in the same colonies, so I feel like it's more than that. For a while I played with infestations off entirely because of how broken they've always felt to me, but I'm trying to not turn off the number one main threat for a tunneling faction (especially since they demand insect meat!)

I guess we each have our challenge. Insects are among the easier threat to deal for me.
What I usually dislike is big centiped raid droping right inside my base or large number of raiders with explosive device, such as triple rocket and doomday. Early siege with sniper when you don't even have mortar can be a bit bothersome too. Of course, playing undermountain, the challenge are not the same I guess. =o/

Anyway, I hope that the few tricks I gave you will help. You should definetly take the combat in darkness precept. It should help a lot against insect as most fight against them will be in dark area.
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: Mojito000 on July 27, 2021, 02:17:12 AM
There is a mode that just makes them much weaker in game, without disabling them completely.
I think it was called "easy infestation" or soemthing like that

Feels a bit cheesy, but then again. The insects do spoil the fun for me as well
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: zgrssd on July 27, 2021, 11:26:54 AM
[snip]
The latest infestation that made me have to reload a save was on a fairly early-game tribal society. I had maybe ~2800 silver, and like 3000 wool adding value because I raise sheeps because the tribe has the Rancher idealogy. I can't really destroy the wool, so it accumulates extremely fast. I got 4 hives, each with about 3 megaspiders, in addition to spelopedes and megascarabs. When I reloaded, I got a mechanoid raid instead, at the same time, with the same wealth, which consisted of exactly two scythers, both of which died easily to bows before ever closing to melee range. I had 5 tribals and 1 slave. I did not have smithing or electricity. Usually in tribal playthroughs, my first 2-3 years are spent getting the food supply stable.

The thing that makes them feel imbalanced to me is primarily comparing them to other raids. When my pirate raids contain 3 enemies (who flee after 2 are defeated), my tribal raids contain 6 people (who flee after 3 or 4 are defeated), my mechanoid raids contain 2 of the weaker mechanoids (who fight to the death), why do infestations contain ~12 megaspiders and ~20 total bugs when they ALSO all fight to the death? If it's because they stay still: That would make sense if they didn't expand their hives faster than my people can recover from their injuries, but that's not the case.
[/quote]
2800 Silver is way too much for a early game tribal. You can not sit on that kind of money without issues. Better to spend it with a trader. The markups and item wear will mean you loose overall wealth with every transaction.
It is especially good with consumeables like food, techplans, (psy)trainers.

3000 wool is also too much. You can burn the wool. All you need is a Molotov, Firethrower or similar weapon.
Or just store it unroofed outside and let it decay.

I do agree that maybe the "does not flee" part is not properly accounted for in the raid power calculation. But I had very few raids lately.
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: Grubfist on July 28, 2021, 03:34:04 AM
[snip]
The latest infestation that made me have to reload a save was on a fairly early-game tribal society. I had maybe ~2800 silver, and like 3000 wool adding value because I raise sheeps because the tribe has the Rancher idealogy. I can't really destroy the wool, so it accumulates extremely fast. I got 4 hives, each with about 3 megaspiders, in addition to spelopedes and megascarabs. When I reloaded, I got a mechanoid raid instead, at the same time, with the same wealth, which consisted of exactly two scythers, both of which died easily to bows before ever closing to melee range. I had 5 tribals and 1 slave. I did not have smithing or electricity. Usually in tribal playthroughs, my first 2-3 years are spent getting the food supply stable.

The thing that makes them feel imbalanced to me is primarily comparing them to other raids. When my pirate raids contain 3 enemies (who flee after 2 are defeated), my tribal raids contain 6 people (who flee after 3 or 4 are defeated), my mechanoid raids contain 2 of the weaker mechanoids (who fight to the death), why do infestations contain ~12 megaspiders and ~20 total bugs when they ALSO all fight to the death? If it's because they stay still: That would make sense if they didn't expand their hives faster than my people can recover from their injuries, but that's not the case.
2800 Silver is way too much for a early game tribal. You can not sit on that kind of money without issues. Better to spend it with a trader. The markups and item wear will mean you loose overall wealth with every transaction.
It is especially good with consumeables like food, techplans, (psy)trainers.

3000 wool is also too much. You can burn the wool. All you need is a Molotov, Firethrower or similar weapon.
Or just store it unroofed outside and let it decay.

I do agree that maybe the "does not flee" part is not properly accounted for in the raid power calculation. But I had very few raids lately.
[/quote]
I didn't get traders very often. I was saving the silver for specific things like techprints and such. This is really not an abnormal amount of wealth to have while waiting for an exotic goods trader. Also, I didn't have access to a fire weapon yet.
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: prototype2001 on July 28, 2021, 08:11:16 PM
Here is how you deal with insects. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coFza0V8hCc

Key: Chokepoint, one good repair, few good non spraying dps, & 1 plasteel turret.
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: zgrssd on July 29, 2021, 06:04:31 AM
Here is how you deal with insects. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coFza0V8hCc

Key: Chokepoint, one good repair, few good non spraying dps, & 1 plasteel turret.
-9°F indoors. You supercooled the base anywhere but that one room, to control where the infestation spawns.
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: prototype2001 on July 29, 2021, 09:26:22 AM
Here is how you deal with insects. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coFza0V8hCc

Key: Chokepoint, one good repair, few good non spraying dps, & 1 plasteel turret.
-9°F indoors. You supercooled the base anywhere but that one room, to control where the infestation spawns.

Yes, but this was made before two DLCs worth of changes, back then infestations spawned and bugs appeared instantly. Now you are given plenty of time to reposition your pawns when infestation triggers, reposition them along with the plasteel turret. Cooling the base is not needed, just make a kill spot at any of the many doorway chokepoints throughout the base as necessary, just make sure all the doors where the infestation is occuring are open so they funnel to their slaughter.

I've had an incident where either the jelly or the hives just outright destroyed some of my buildings, this could be a problem which may need a cooling solution, if it keeps occuring.

Edit: also its -18f and lower or the hives don't care
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: robotic_gamer on August 16, 2021, 08:32:53 AM
alternatively if your map says warm enough year round you could just let an infestation spawn at the corner of the map. if there is no path for raiders to get to it the bugs will never get triggered to go on the attack. once it gets to 30 hives it will block future random infestations. some notes
- while random infestations are blocked, infestations from quests are not and attacking the quest bugs will trigger the blocking bugs
- deep drill bugs however can be killed without triggering them
- if they dig to the edge raids don't seem to be able to get in
- however caravans can get in to there spot
- attached is my bases infestation going 8 years strong (note I do reload when things like a colonist die)
Title: Re: Insectoids and Tunnelers
Post by: TenNineAce on August 18, 2021, 01:30:19 AM
I am aware of two major bug-fighting strategies. One is to use Vertigo Pulse, which is extremely effective, but relies on having a psycaster with vertigo pulse, something that is absolutely not guaranteed.

If you have a psycaster at all chances are they have something useful. Blinding pulse reduces melee hit chance, chaos skip can pull them off your people, etc. Once with some teamwork I managed to blink a psycaster in, berserk a megaspider, blink out, and watch it fight all the other bugs without ever agroing on a colonist. But yeah, in general vertigo pulse is my go-to and I buy psytrainers for it whenever I can.

I have two strategies for you:

1. Animal ganking. Train anything, even rats, to attack and send dozens to take the place of your melee fighters in your scenario. They will almost certainly die, but better them than a colonist. Once an enemy (any) is engaged in melee with someone it won't stop attacking them to chase someone, so your shooters can retreat to a safe distance once the animals arrive.

2. Shoot from afar. if you have people near the infestation when it starts, use the time before bugs arrive to have them deconstruct walls and uninstall furniture where they can to give your people a clear shot from as far away as possible. Then have your melee fighters line up right in front of your shooters. By the time the bugs get to you they will hopefully be weakened enough that the team can take them out before they do too much damage to your front line. You can also snipe them in the right circumstances, if your shooter is a good hunter they be able to stealth it.