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RimWorld => Ideas => Topic started by: vagineer1 on August 16, 2014, 11:56:52 AM

Title: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: vagineer1 on August 16, 2014, 11:56:52 AM
More than once I found that my guys are being shot and killed by some of my other men due to them being in the way. It usually happens when hunting with 4 or 5 guys. What I suggest is toning down (Or removing all together) the damage done by your own colonists.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: Somz on August 16, 2014, 12:11:17 PM
Nope! Nopenopenopenopenopenopenooooooope!
Friendly fire's real and fun, makes it more challenging AND(!!!) it also applies to the enemy. A few of my colonists are damaged from time to time, some nearly died, but compared to my minimal "losses", the enemies have lost hundreds... It's needed!  ;)
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: vagineer1 on August 16, 2014, 12:43:49 PM
Quote from: Somz on August 16, 2014, 12:11:17 PM
Nope! Nopenopenopenopenopenopenooooooope!
Friendly fire's real and fun, makes it more challenging AND(!!!) it also applies to the enemy. A few of my colonists are damaged from time to time, some nearly died, but compared to my minimal "losses", the enemies have lost hundreds... It's needed!  ;)

I don't see how it is "Fun"

When you are hunting with a large party and they all hit eachother because they don't know how to aim properly it is not fun.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: Bog on August 16, 2014, 01:17:34 PM
I disagree with removing friendly fire, because I like what it brings to combat, but I agree that the hunting AI needs to be updated so that they don't fire if there's an ally (from your colony or visiting people) in between you and the target.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: vagineer1 on August 16, 2014, 01:27:10 PM
Quote from: Bog on August 16, 2014, 01:17:34 PM
I disagree with removing friendly fire, because I like what it brings to combat, but I agree that the hunting AI needs to be updated so that they don't fire if there's an ally (from your colony or visiting people) in between you and the target.

To be honest hunting is the real Friendly Fire issue I am having. In combat I have not noticed FF between my guys at all.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: Rahjital on August 16, 2014, 03:35:13 PM
Fixing the hunting issue by removing friendly fire is like preventing air disaster by banning commercial airliners. Yes, hunters would no longer kill their teammates, but an essential mechanic in combat would be gone. Using it to your advantage makes beating much larger raids possible with fewer casualties, which is especially important in the new version.

Alpha 6 made the hunting issue a lot worse, so I agree something should be done quickly. Hunters took just a few hitpoints from the passing pawns in A5, but now they can instakill them just because they didn't want to wait with shooting that one megascarab.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: Somz on August 16, 2014, 03:47:17 PM
Quote from: vagineer1 on August 16, 2014, 12:43:49 PM
Quote from: Somz on August 16, 2014, 12:11:17 PM
Nope! Nopenopenopenopenopenopenooooooope!
Friendly fire's real and fun, makes it more challenging AND(!!!) it also applies to the enemy. A few of my colonists are damaged from time to time, some nearly died, but compared to my minimal "losses", the enemies have lost hundreds... It's needed!  ;)

I don't see how it is "Fun"

When you are hunting with a large party and they all hit eachother because they don't know how to aim properly it is not fun.

You don't see how is it fun? Read my comment again then, I explained...  :P
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: Somz on August 16, 2014, 03:53:38 PM
Quote from: Rahjital on August 16, 2014, 03:35:13 PM
Fixing the hunting issue by removing friendly fire is like preventing air disaster by banning commercial airliners. Yes, hunters would no longer kill their teammates, but an essential mechanic in combat would be gone. Using it to your advantage makes beating much larger raids possible with fewer casualties, which is especially important in the new version.

Alpha 6 made the hunting issue a lot worse, so I agree something should be done quickly. Hunters took just a few hitpoints from the passing pawns in A5, but now they can instakill them just because they didn't want to wait with shooting that one megascarab.

Because colonists don't pay attention. There are hunting accidents IRL as well, people shooting at each other because this and that.
If you (/we/whatever, I'll stick with *you* because why not) select a megascarab or a muffalo right where your other pawns are moving around, you ought to damage (kill) them, you're asking for it. Sure, hunting could have a more...refined way of doing its job, OR you could just, you know, select targets to hunt somewhere that isn't the middle of your base?  ::)
It pretty much worked out for me so far, not once did my hunter with a minigun hit anything except for its prey.  ;)
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: HatesYourFace on August 16, 2014, 04:44:36 PM
I typically only assign one or two people at a time to hunting for this very reason, I also tend to give them Lee Enfields or M-24's so that they aren't spraying and praying all over the place. If I actually need a lot of meat, (Like a whole herd of Muffalo for example.) I just Draft everyone and treat it like a search and destroy mission.

But yeah, I'm for keeping FF, it adds a lot of depth/realism to the combat and forces you to be more careful/conservative with your gunfire.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: Rahjital on August 16, 2014, 05:04:36 PM
Quote from: Somz on August 16, 2014, 03:53:38 PM
Because colonists don't pay attention. There are hunting accidents IRL as well, people shooting at each other because this and that.
If you (/we/whatever, I'll stick with *you* because why not) select a megascarab or a muffalo right where your other pawns are moving around, you ought to damage (kill) them, you're asking for it. Sure, hunting could have a more...refined way of doing its job, OR you could just, you know, select targets to hunt somewhere that isn't the middle of your base?  ::)
It pretty much worked out for me so far, not once did my hunter with a minigun hit anything except for its prey.  ;)

I'm not that bloody stupid, you know :P I learned to draft colonists when hunting animals too close to the base. Unfortunately, animals like to wander, especially on deserts where there's little to eat, so they can wander towards something in the desert you want hauled away, and then you get the message that one of your colonists was shot to death. It doesn't help that the colonists go as far away from the animal as possible and try to shoot it even when it's lying on the ground incapacitated. I never have more than one person hunting, by the way, and they always have pistols so that they train their skills quickly and the distance in which a colonist can walk into the middle of the shot isn't so great.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: Kirid on August 16, 2014, 06:27:01 PM
Removing or lowering damage of friendly fire isn't realistic, a bullet is a bullet.
Colonists should avoid walking in front of other colonists who are shooting. If someone was shooting a gun in real life, you probably wouldn't walk in front of them.
Quote from: Bog on August 16, 2014, 01:17:34 PM
I agree that the hunting AI needs to be updated so that they don't fire if there's an ally (from your colony or visiting people) in between you and the target.
This could be somewhat imperfect. If we assume the person shooting is focused on the target, they could have a narrow cone and stop shooting if a colonists walks in it. Accidents could still happen, they might fire just before someone enters the cone, coupled with bad accuracy. Or perhaps if they are tired or hungry they are more reckless and ignore the cone.
Quote from: Somz on August 16, 2014, 12:11:17 PM
Friendly fire's real and fun, makes it more challenging
I don't think running a colony of stooges is fun, there are plenty of other things that make this game challenging. Sure friendly fire is real, but those are accidents, not because people don't possess the logic not to shoot at each other.

We shouldn't have to draft and micromanage so our colonists won't shoot each other. That was the whole point of adding an automatic hunting system.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: Somz on August 16, 2014, 06:37:57 PM
Quote from: Rahjital on August 16, 2014, 05:04:36 PM
Quote from: Somz on August 16, 2014, 03:53:38 PM
Because colonists don't pay attention. There are hunting accidents IRL as well, people shooting at each other because this and that.
If you (/we/whatever, I'll stick with *you* because why not) select a megascarab or a muffalo right where your other pawns are moving around, you ought to damage (kill) them, you're asking for it. Sure, hunting could have a more...refined way of doing its job, OR you could just, you know, select targets to hunt somewhere that isn't the middle of your base?  ::)
It pretty much worked out for me so far, not once did my hunter with a minigun hit anything except for its prey.  ;)

I'm not that bloody stupid, you know :P I learned to draft colonists when hunting animals too close to the base. Unfortunately, animals like to wander, especially on deserts where there's little to eat, so they can wander towards something in the desert you want hauled away, and then you get the message that one of your colonists was shot to death. It doesn't help that the colonists go as far away from the animal as possible and try to shoot it even when it's lying on the ground incapacitated. I never have more than one person hunting, by the way, and they always have pistols so that they train their skills quickly and the distance in which a colonist can walk into the middle of the shot isn't so great.

I did not mean you, personally, but folks complaining about it in general.  ;)
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: James009 on August 17, 2014, 07:12:25 AM
It doesn't need removal but it does need to be toned down... at least until colonists are smart enough not to open fire when another colonist is moving near or in front of them. This is best displayed when you select a large area for "hunting" and your people run out there like Wild Bill shooting up everything hitting farmers, haulers, and constructors... especially given how dangerous injuries are now.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: vagineer1 on August 17, 2014, 07:14:54 AM
Quote from: James009 on August 17, 2014, 07:12:25 AM
It doesn't need removal but it does need to be toned down... at least until colonists are smart enough not to open fire when another colonist is moving near or in front of them. This is best displayed when you select a large area for "hunting" and your people run out there like Wild Bill shooting up everything hitting farmers, haulers, and constructors... especially given how dangerous injuries are now.

That is really what I meant. Adjust the hunting AI so colonists don't kill eachother whilst hunting. I've never noticed friendly fire in real combat.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: joeloverbeck on August 17, 2014, 08:18:40 AM
Friendly fire should stay, just improve AI so that they learn not to shoot when allies run into the line of fire, or prevent allies from running into the line of fire in the first place. It could be linked to shooting ability, so poor shooters might not realize they are going to get shot or that they might shoot a friend accidentally. Last night a couple of my hunters got permanent injuries for this reason. My second best got her left hand shot off and another one his ear.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: HatesYourFace on August 17, 2014, 11:52:33 AM
People shoot other people while hunting. It happens lol. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney_hunting_incident

Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: Rahjital on August 17, 2014, 05:12:57 PM
Yes, hunting accidents do happen, but not because people go "Huh, Jim just stepped in my way. I guess I should try to shoot anyway, maybe it will fly through him and hit the target!" *Jim has been shot to death*

I think removing friendly fire from hunting colonists would be an acceptable solution as well.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: Bog on August 17, 2014, 06:06:11 PM
Quote from: Rahjital on August 17, 2014, 05:12:57 PM
Yes, hunting accidents do happen, but not because people go "Huh, Jim just stepped in my way. I guess I should try to shoot anyway, maybe it will fly through him and hit the target!" *Jim has been shot to death*
Yes, usually hunting accidents only happen when the person who got shot was wearing camouflage. (because that person is hunting too) And either way, there's probably 1000+ deer killed for every hunter that catches a bullet. It's a statistical improbability, so you should basically never see it in a normal game of rimworld.

Repeatedly shooting a guy who's planting potatoes in an open field while trying to hit a squirrel on the other side is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: Sir Wagglepuss III on August 17, 2014, 06:20:21 PM
Having your people refuse to fire when a friendly is directly between them and the target would be neat, but I really wouldn't want to see friendly fire removed entirely.

It'd also be good if a person could notice when they are in the field of fire of a friendly and promptly move themselves out of the way (If possible), and if pathing could be worked on to prefer walking behind friendlies rather than in front of them.

But seriously, if somebody walks out in front of a friendly whilst they are shooting, then they are asking for it. I've had a total of zero hunting accidents during my current playthrough (About 60 days so far) because I've always kept an eye on my hunters. You can afford to take your eyes off of your normal workers for a little while, but taking your eyes off stupid people shooting guns (Which is what your people are for the moment) sounds as silly as the friendly fire itself lol.

Just treat your guys as kids with guns and you should be fine tbh.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: HatesYourFace on August 18, 2014, 01:54:17 PM
Removing all FF to fix hunting is basically throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: bobucles on August 18, 2014, 08:43:19 PM
How to prevent hunting accidents 101:

1) Use shorter range weapons. Less airtime with bullets means less chances for someone to be there.
2) Use fewer hunters. You seriously don't need more than one or two.
3) Set up fencing areas to separate work from hunting zones
4) Don't hunt inside your base!
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: HatesYourFace on August 18, 2014, 09:41:35 PM
Hunting...Rimworld style!

(http://i.imgur.com/TNkNJO2.gif)
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: BDoggames on October 20, 2014, 05:34:19 PM
Today i made the grave mistake of selecting all cobras and boars on the map for hunting. Things went fine for about the first 10 or so cobras (out of 28) until i looked at my guy with a machine gun firing it at a cobra. The cobra was incapacitated. Suddenly my hunter with a sniper riffle pops out from behind a rock walks literally right in front of the downed cobra and starts shooting at another cobra that had just walked behind my machine gunner. The machine gunner and the sniper volley at the same time. The machine gunner's head is blown clean off and my sniper's heart was destroyed. My hunters had just managed to simultaneously kill each other.  :-[
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: obuw on October 20, 2014, 06:46:05 PM
Why not remove friendly fire only during hunting? E.g. if a pawn fires his weapon while hunting it can't hit friendlies.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: porcupine on October 20, 2014, 10:56:26 PM
*boom* headshot.

Just had this happen about 5 minutes ago selecting a few animals to hunt in my devilstrand patch.

I had already pulled all the guys with chainguns off the hunting list.

All I thought was "I dont have the shot, start to re-aim", would have been quite applicable here (and in combat).  Guys who see somebody unreasonably close to their arc of fire could either move, re-aim, etc.  This wouldn't tone down the friendly fire, but would deal with it realistically (and you'd still be penalized in combat, as not having half your guys shooting when you got greedy would obviously have a kick to it). 
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: RawCode on October 20, 2014, 11:12:25 PM
I created mod that remove friendly fire and found that modification stupid and unfun.

Do you understand that removal of friendly fire will make melee raiders completely unstoppable and totally illogical?

Games about process, marking every animal on map for hunting and leaving hunter on his own is not valid strategy, punishment for such action is perfectly acceptable.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: Geokinesis on October 21, 2014, 02:09:07 PM
Another for keep Friendly Fire.

I've had 1 of my first 3 colonists attempt to hunt a squirrel and headshot his friend before they'd even lost their colony optimism. I laughed and carried on.  ;D
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: BinaryBlackhole on October 21, 2014, 04:41:36 PM
The real issue is the ai in raids make it so that they shoot whoevers closest you need to make it so if theres someone else in range of their weapon they will aim for person  instead without you having to interfere also better shooters have smaller friendly fire cones as they are more accurate.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: Wex on October 21, 2014, 05:22:47 PM
I usually get a nice 40% of casualties (on the enemy side) to be fully friendly fire; tribals has this happening more often, because there are more melee wielding maniacs. But grenade dudes usually get riled by their friends' happy trigger habits too.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: BetaSpectre on October 21, 2014, 08:38:50 PM
I think that in normal combat or passive combat colonists should avoid friendly fire but if you forcefire then all colonists can fire. Another possibility is to add a personality trait for colonists to determine if they can even forcefire at or near friendlies.
Title: Re: Tone Down or remove Friendly Fire
Post by: 200Down on February 06, 2015, 03:35:41 PM
Yeah the AI is nonexistent when it comes to FF currently. I really don't mind it during firefights and such but loosing limbs from hunting is a bit too common. It's additional baby sitting that shouldn't be needed.

Might be easiest to just give colonists bullet immunity UNTIL enemies are at least on the map. Shouldn't be too hard to do (complete uneducated guess of course).

Ether that or just remove tell further notice. It is alpha after all and such things are common. Problem is... I'm assuming we're stuck with it because there's nothing to remove. Zero has likely been done at all in that department. It's not like it's something you add to the game thinkin yea..., we need ff here it is. Plop.., with no further balance haha. Nah, it's more like this... bullets do damage to pawns... and nothing further was done.