So...ammo.
What to do with it? Should it be modeled? If so, how to keep it simple?
Well, one way could be to to not count individual clips, but total "clips/magazines".
As in - how many times can a weapon be fired before the colonist runs out completely (a burst counts as 1 shot for simplicity sake).
So, taking a normal loadout of 6 clips, something like a M-16 would have 30*6 = 180 bullets. Assuming a 3-bullet burst as the only way to use the weapons, that gives us 60 bursts before ammo is required. (hence, M-16 having an ammo value of 60) Most weapons would have a similar value (number of uses)
So every weapon would have a normal ammo loadout value like that.
Next, you'd have an ammo crate. For simplicity, it contains all ammo types your colonists need. Let's say it contains 1000 units (of ammo). Once your colonists run out, they would have to get to the ammo crate to re-supply.
Ammo crates can be bought, created and re-filled (by crafting ammo - gunpowder+metal for 10-50-100 units of ammo) and moved around.
Possibility: ammo pouch as apparel. Double ammo capacity, but reduces movement speed considerably.
...
Or you can use the same system but count bullets (180 value for M-16). That might even make more sense, since very powerful weapons (like a minigun..which should be way more accurate b.t.w.) would be huge ammo hogs. In that case the ammo crate storage capacity would have to be bigger and the ammo crafting ratio also.
I think it would be tedious to have to manage ammo for every colonist and you'd have to make sure raiders had enough that they didn't run out and get left with punch stuff.
I could live with a system as simple as that (that sounds awkward and entitled, doesn't it), if the code itself permits mods to add any number or types of different ammunitions and the possibility for guns to use distinct ammo types.
Gunpowder for crafting could be made out of wood, metal and some obscure plant that provides the remaining necessary chemicals. With a workchain in place to produce ammo, Melee would get a boost early game. Threats should be scaled accordingly.
Quote from: Geokinesis on October 06, 2014, 06:55:41 AM
I think it would be tedious to have to manage ammo for every colonist and you'd have to make sure raiders had enough that they didn't run out and get left with punch stuff.
That could be an automated task like firefighting, resting and sleeping. Think of it as a need.
Quote from: Geokinesis on October 06, 2014, 06:55:41 AM
I think it would be tedious to have to manage ammo for every colonist and you'd have to make sure raiders had enough that they didn't run out and get left with punch stuff.
When raiders attack they bring food.
Them bringing an ammo crate with them should be easy to do.
In fact, making them expend ammo might be a good tactic - when they run low of ammo, they might decide to retreat!
Quote from: Varnhagen on October 06, 2014, 07:02:52 AM
I could live with a system as simple as that (that sounds awkward and entitled, doesn't it), if the code itself permits mods to add any number or types of different ammunitions and the possibility for guns to use distinct ammo types.
Gunpowder for crafting could be made out of wood, metal and some obscure plant that provides the remaining necessary chemicals. With a workchain in place to produce ammo, Melee would get a boost early game. Threats should be scaled accordingly.
Mining sulfur?
Getting gunpowder should be simple enough without resorting to some exotic plants.
As for the first thing, it should be doable. Just set all guns to use a generic ammunition called "ammo" in their file.
You could later change it for different weapons (this might also require different ammo crates, unless you allow for a crate to carry different ammo types)
Quote
That could be an automated task like firefighting, resting and sleeping. Think of it as a need.
Or possibly a toggle. Colonists would automatically go get ammo once out.. OR they might charge into melee.
So you might want to bring an ammo crate close to the front lines. Just be careful that the raiders don't steal it.
Speaking of which - why aren't raiders stealing things?
Just have a bunch of savages or thieves run in, grab whatever they can (metal, silver, food, guns, etc) and run?
Sure ming sulfur, might work. But it's another resource that'd have to be placed on the map and would be potentially depletable. Perhaps a long-growing, low yielding extremely odorous variant to complement random sulfur deposits? We don't want a player to run out of pew-pew, do we?
I am personally against the idea of implementing ammo at all.
I already have to try desperately to survive 6 Centipedes and 4 Scythers dropping right into the middle of my base when I have unlimited ammunition. Were ammunition to be implemented, and especially with the health system, a colonist running out of bullets would be tantamount to suicide in most situations as he just gets munched up by high-calibre bullets.
I think the current weapons system will work just fine, thanks.
Running out of bullets in a firefight would be part of a system I could manage and do stuff to prevent. It'd be battle-logistics and another layer of immersion.
What if Ammo was introduced and threats better scaled/balanced? Perhaps there were 10 Mechs dropping in on you because a lesser amount would be to easy to overcome with endless ammunition. Or: Perhaps with ammo, the individual threats could be nerfed and still be challenging.
Quote from: Varnhagen on October 06, 2014, 03:53:45 PM
Running out of bullets in a firefight would be part of a system I could manage and do stuff to prevent. It'd be battle-logistics and another layer of immersion.
What if Ammo was introduced and threats better scaled/balanced? Perhaps there were 10 Mechs dropping in on you because a lesser amount would be to easy to overcome with endless ammunition. Or: Perhaps with ammo, the individual threats could be nerfed and still be challenging.
This
Quote from: Varnhagen on October 06, 2014, 03:53:45 PM
Running out of bullets in a firefight would be part of a system I could manage and do stuff to prevent. It'd be battle-logistics and another layer of immersion.
What if Ammo was introduced and threats better scaled/balanced? Perhaps there were 10 Mechs dropping in on you because a lesser amount would be to easy to overcome with endless ammunition. Or: Perhaps with ammo, the individual threats could be nerfed and still be challenging.
yep agreed.
i've always wanted ammo (item degradation, weapon/armor manufacturing, etc..) ever since like forevah. a lot of people complain about the scaling of enemy raids, and they seem to ignore the correlation of unlimited ammo and indestructible armor to raid difficulty.
i think it's about time that this game should also include the "logistics" aspect of a battle into the mix.
though honestly, i think it's a bit of a longshot right now.
"logistics" and "internal threats", those are gonna be some pretty hefty updates. it's like back in the old alphas when people keep saying "we want biomes!", while the other half says "no U, biomes are nevah gonna make it to rimworld, because.. reasons!"
and then we got Alpha 6.. lol.. ;D
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Quote from: Varnhagen on October 06, 2014, 07:02:52 AM
That could be an automated task like firefighting, resting and sleeping. Think of it as a need.
i like it.
if the auto-replenish ammo is feasible, then auto-repair gear or auto-replace gear (using items on colonist-assigned equipment racks is also feasible)
I'd like the concept with ammunition too, but not so much the idea of having ammo crates to restock at as it feels 'off'. I would like the ability for the colonists to produce their own ammo in addition of buying from merchant ships - some weapons can use the same type of bullets so that it won't be too overwhelming. I do however agree that the amount of bullets have to be more compact for storage reasons, like storing ammo boxes that contain x bullets per box (where x varies between the ammo types). Also being able to carry melee weapons as a secondary weapon would be nice then.
Where would you restock from if not from ammo crates? It's where you keep ammo.
Also notices I said the colonists should be able to produce ammo.
And yes to secondary weapon. A backup is always a good idea.
I am all for ammo for artillery (mortars, turrets) but I think that ammo for pistols and guns would add too much micromanagement to the game.
I think that the coolest thing about an ammo system would be the additional tension it would introduce: do I have enough ammo to push the pirates back? This would already be achieved if turrets and mortars required ammo, though.
Quote from: TrashMan on October 07, 2014, 07:58:35 AM
Where would you restock from if not from ammo crates? It's where you keep ammo.
Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you meant ammo where exclusively in the form of ammo crates? Or was it meant as a container that is more compact than regular storage areas that ammo is hauled into? I agree to keeping things simple, and managing storage of single bullets will get tedious fast, hence why I think ammo should come in ammo boxes. The difference is that while a crate is a huge thing that needs to be hauled around a box is small enough to be carried in a colonists inventory. This is just a personal opinion though, I'm not making the claim it's the better idea - and if it's talk about a container then both ideas is actually possible.
Ammo management doesn't add any depth or value to this game.
Quote from: keylocke on October 07, 2014, 12:47:48 AMa lot of people complain about the scaling of enemy raids, and they seem to ignore the correlation of unlimited ammo and indestructible armor to raid difficulty.
Lifespan of pirates is measured on the order of seconds. Advantage of limited ammo and armor breaking is wholly on the NPCs - and for what? 'mah realizm'?
Whenever you're thinking of adding something to a game (whether tabletop or vidja,) think "Does this unfairly favor the players or the NPCs?" If the answer is that it unfairly favors the players, proceed with all engines ahead full! The players should be having fun, and if they're unfairly favored, you can ramp up the intensity relatively safely.
If it unfairly favors the NPCs, then hit the brakes hard. Remember that the GM (or the vidja game,) has an unlimited number of NPCs. You can throw NPCs at the players until they fail, and it's no fun. Adding mechanics which favor the NPCs more exacerbates that situation.
It doesn't matter if the bandits' armor breaks. There will always be more bandits. It doesn't matter if their gun runs out, he was just bandit #425 of ∞.
It does, however, matter if Sophie Whattaface runs out of bullets, because she's #2 of your, what, 5 colonists? 10? 15 if you're lucky? 30 if you're playing on Randy Random or some mod which allows for moar colonists? When she runs out of bullets, your colony's fighting capability takes a nosedive, which proceeds directly into the death spiral of unrecoverability. Not Fun.
Quote from: ShadowDragon8685 on October 08, 2014, 05:25:13 AM
Whenever you're thinking of adding something to a game (whether tabletop or vidja,) think "Does this unfairly favor the players or the NPCs?" If the answer is that it unfairly favors the players, proceed with all engines ahead full! The players should be having fun, and if they're unfairly favored, you can ramp up the intensity relatively safely.
If it unfairly favors the NPCs, then hit the brakes hard. Remember that the GM (or the vidja game,) has an unlimited number of NPCs. You can throw NPCs at the players until they fail, and it's no fun. Adding mechanics which favor the NPCs more exacerbates that situation.
It doesn't matter if the bandits' armor breaks. There will always be more bandits. It doesn't matter if their gun runs out, he was just bandit #425 of ∞.
It does, however, matter if Sophie Whattaface runs out of bullets, because she's #2 of your, what, 5 colonists? 10? 15 if you're lucky? 30 if you're playing on Randy Random or some mod which allows for moar colonists? When she runs out of bullets, your colony's fighting capability takes a nosedive, which proceeds directly into the death spiral of unrecoverability. Not Fun.
You forgot that "Losing is fun".
On a more serious note, I think that every such change should be considered in connection to other changes that would have to follow. I.e., adding limited ammo would require more constrains on enemy assaults to mirror the increased difficulty of dealing with them.
I think the tension of having to count your bullets might potentially add to the depth of the story. But it could become tedious, unfair and irritating. That is why I suggested that this be limited to mortars and other cannons - this way you get the additional tension without excessive micro and possible total defenselessness of the colony.
Quote from: ShadowDragon8685 on October 08, 2014, 05:25:13 AM
It does, however, matter if Sophie Whattaface runs out of bullets, because she's #2 of your, what, 5 colonists? 10? 15 if you're lucky? 30 if you're playing on Randy Random or some mod which allows for moar colonists? When she runs out of bullets, your colony's fighting capability takes a nosedive, which proceeds directly into the death spiral of unrecoverability. Not Fun.
the logistics part of a battle involves making sure that "Sophie Whattaface" will have more bullets than the enemy and will always have spare armor nearby to switch out from.
while the X number of raiders ends up with dwindling resources and be forced in a battle of attrition, desperation, or retreat.
this is how fewer colonists can win against a larger force (without turrets) as long as they have a good supply of armor, bullets, and the ability to use guerrilla tactics.
There's already enough logistics to take care of re: making sure Sophie Wattaface is A: Healthy enough for combat, B: not about to have a fucking mental break in the middle of combat, C: equipped for combat with a weapon, etcetera, etcetera.
Too much realism does not add fun. You know what else is realistic? 3+ people generate a lot of shit. Literally. They'd have to be going to the john every day or so, at least once a day, and that would mean they'd have to dig up new latrine pits every few days.
It's realistic. You wanna add that to the game, too? Having to micromanage everybody's trip to the hopper, keeping new latrine pits dug up and filling in the old ones, etc?
Quote from: ShadowDragon8685 on October 08, 2014, 05:49:16 PM
There's already enough logistics to take care of re: making sure Sophie Wattaface is A: Healthy enough for combat, B: not about to have a fucking mental break in the middle of combat, C: equipped for combat with a weapon, etcetera, etcetera.
Too much realism does not add fun. You know what else is realistic? 3+ people generate a lot of shit. Literally. They'd have to be going to the john every day or so, at least once a day, and that would mean they'd have to dig up new latrine pits every few days.
It's realistic. You wanna add that to the game, too? Having to micromanage everybody's trip to the hopper, keeping new latrine pits dug up and filling in the old ones, etc?
Whole new meaning to "Rim"world.
i don't mind getting toilets. some people have suggested it before, iirc..
but no need to dig for latrines. that's too low tech. (try pixel piracy for more lulz)
i also don't mind adding thirst, hygiene, and recreation into the needs.
there's usually a fine line between "hardcore", "casual", and "insane"(?)
but i think these things, still fall within the "hardcore" category.
fun > realism tends to be the motto of "casuals" these days..
it's like comparing the original DayZ mod vs State of Decay.
it's a matter of preference. some people prefer one over the other, while some people don't care.
gameplay-wise, i think ammo logistics is manageable for most players.
development-wise, it's mostly up to tynan.
we usually just chew the fat around here, so there's really nothing much to get riled up about.
agree to disagree, and all that jazz..
An Ammo count for mortars and other large weapons is understand able, one shell/ missle per shot is simple and we then have a reason to buy ammo.
Having to buy ammo give the player a money sink and a cost to using artillery in defense.
Now ammo will probably explode if it caches fire or is damaged, so you'll need a safe place to store the ammo.
Ammo for larger weapons i.e. missile launchers, make sense it's a way to limit there damage but let them as much fire power as need to balance them.
Quote from: keylocke on October 08, 2014, 08:40:11 PM
i don't mind getting toilets. some people have suggested it before, iirc..
but no need to dig for latrines. that's too low tech. (try pixel piracy for more lulz)
i also don't mind adding thirst, hygiene, and recreation into the needs.
there's usually a fine line between "hardcore", "casual", and "insane"(?)
but i think these things, still fall within the "hardcore" category.
fun > realism tends to be the motto of "casuals" these days..
it's like comparing the original DayZ mod vs State of Decay.
it's a matter of preference. some people prefer one over the other, while some people don't care.
gameplay-wise, i think ammo logistics is manageable for most players.
development-wise, it's mostly up to tynan.
we usually just chew the fat around here, so there's really nothing much to get riled up about.
agree to disagree, and all that jazz..
The part of too much 'realism' is that it often isn't realistic. It's just an excuse to add inane elements that add nothing to the gameplay or character of the game, they just tickle a nuance niche of some people who don't care to notch up the difficulty.
Wow, that escalated quickly Shadow...
Quote from: ShadowDragon8685 on October 08, 2014, 05:25:13 AM
If it unfairly favors the NPCs, then hit the brakes hard. Remember that the GM (or the vidja game,) has an unlimited number of NPCs.
Quote from: ShadowDragon8685 on October 08, 2014, 05:49:16 PM
There's already enough logistics to take care of re: making sure Sophie Wattaface is A: Healthy enough for combat, B: not about to have a fucking mental break in the middle of combat, C: equipped for combat with a weapon, etcetera, etcetera.
Your argument is based on quite some wrong assumptions.
First: The Numbers of NPC's are limited in Rimworld. They've got names and if you play long enough, you'll see the same names popping up every Raid. In the same game I've had Redfields participate in 3 attacks in a Row (getting killed all the time), and he visited the colony once as part of a friendly faction.
Because there are currently so many raiders needed to somewhat level the playing field, a reduction of raider number via the increase of the gameply challenge works fine. The "strength in number" escalation was temporary I'd gather and a placeholder mechanic to create some kind of combat dynamics.
Rimworlds NPC's are no Zerglings, they are Characters.
Second: Sorry if I sound patronizing, but if "Health", "Mood" and "Weapon" is already too much "Realism" for you, perhaps you'd be better off playing chess. These are basic mechanics which don't hassle the players but break up the routine and fill the void with things to do. Just like Ammo would.
So Sophie Whatsherface runs out of ammo, because you didn't procure or craft any since the start of the game? Tough luck, you'll know better next time. She runs out of ammo, because you forgot to resupply her between the last two raids? Tough luck, and you'll know better next time. She breaks in a fight, because you made her eat crap-food, have her living in a hideous hole, overworked her and she can't bear the view of all the gore? Tough luck. Respect your pawns needs next time.
I think you're overreacting, and constructing shitty strawmen (pun intended) won't help arguing against ammo.
Quote from: Funkmachine7 on October 08, 2014, 09:48:29 PM
Ammo for larger weapons i.e. missile launchers, make sense it's a way to limit there damage but let them as much fire power as need to balance them.
Ammo makes sense for all weapons. Players could decide which weapon to use, based on ammo stocks and not just base their decision on bulletcount and damage. If Sniper rifle ammo was low and expensive, if minigun ammo was low and 9mil was abundant, would players opt for their standard minigun + M24 setup or equip some folks with pistols for minor threats because it's cheaper?
If you run out of ammo in a firefight, lure your enemy into your base and kill him with melee. A secondary weapon slot would be needed for that. Or a compulsary power claw enhancement programm for new recruits.
But either way: Enriched gameplay and meaningful decisions.
Quote from: Varnhagen on October 09, 2014, 04:39:56 AM
Ammo makes sense for all weapons. Players could decide which weapon to use, based on ammo stocks and not just base their decision on bulletcount and damage. If Sniper rifle ammo was low and expensive, if minigun ammo was low and 9mil was abundant, would players opt for their standard minigun + M24 setup or equip some folks with pistols for minor threats because it's cheaper?
If you run out of ammo in a firefight, lure your enemy into your base and kill him with melee. A secondary weapon slot would be needed for that. Or a compulsary power claw enhancement programm for new recruits.
But either way: Enriched gameplay and meaningful decisions.
This is a very interesting point. Ammo would potentially make various weapon types more useful. It might be more interesting then the current "get everyone an M-24" drill.
Quote from: ShadowTani on October 07, 2014, 08:34:45 AM
Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you meant ammo where exclusively in the form of ammo crates? Or was it meant as a container that is more compact than regular storage areas that ammo is hauled into? I agree to keeping things simple, and managing storage of single bullets will get tedious fast, hence why I think ammo should come in ammo boxes. The difference is that while a crate is a huge thing that needs to be hauled around a box is small enough to be carried in a colonists inventory. This is just a personal opinion though, I'm not making the claim it's the better idea - and if it's talk about a container then both ideas is actually possible.
I mean ammo crate as an item that holds x units of ammo and be placed/moved. It can be crafted. It can be re-filled.
So really, the only thing the player would have to take care of is to have a non-empty ammo crate near the action.
FFS! Dwarf Fortress has you craft each individual arrow!
If a mechanic as simple as this is too much for some people, I wonder how they can even lay the game at all.
Quote from: Mathenaut on October 09, 2014, 12:02:41 AM
The part of too much 'realism' is that it often isn't realistic. It's just an excuse to add inane elements that add nothing to the gameplay or character of the game, they just tickle a nuance niche of some people who don't care to notch up the difficulty.
i believe dwarf fortress and gnomoria also allows manufacture of ammo. (as someone else pointed out), so it's still within the "hardcore" spectrum of a game.
thirst/hygiene/recreation needs also still fit within the "hardcore" spectrum, rather than going over to the "insanity" level.. (ie : i think surgeon simulator, toribash, etc.. fit in the "insane" category, but extremely fun nonetheless..)
it's not everyone's cup of joe. but since most people who play rimworld also plays dwarf fortress and gnomoria, it's not really much of a hassle to deal with since a lot of people here already knows how ammo logistics play like.
Why not compromise and have it so every X amount of shots a character has to spend 30 seconds (varies by weapon?) reloading their weapon but reloading is just downtime and doesn't require physical ammo to be present. Also have an option to force reload so can have everyone ready for a full assault or whatever.
You still have to manage that suddenly in the fire fight if you've given everyone m24s you'll be sitting ducks as you all take 30 uninterrupted seconds to reload, but without having to create an entire manufacturing line for ammo or too much extra busywork.
Part of the problem is that a man can carry a lot of ammo, sure a load of 180 rounds in 30 round magazines is common but so is more.
In the Vietnam war US soldiers often carried 1000+ rounds and more ammo for machine guns, a few hand grenades.
Why did they carry all that ammo? because when your ammo runs out you are no longer in combat, you are dead.
If you have a fixed position then it will have its own ammo stored there.
If your expecting a fight you'll carry more ammo, so raiders will probably come with a lot of ammo for sieges.
Quote from: Funkmachine7 on October 09, 2014, 04:35:30 PM
Part of the problem is that a man can carry a lot of ammo, sure a load of 180 rounds in 30 round magazines is common but so is more.
In the Vietnam war US soldiers often carried 1000+ rounds and more ammo for machine guns, a few hand grenades.
Why did they carry all that ammo? because when your ammo runs out you are no longer in combat, you are dead.
If you have a fixed position then it will have its own ammo stored there.
If your expecting a fight you'll carry more ammo, so raiders will probably come with a lot of ammo for sieges.
Moreon, this changes defense from something flexible and dynamic to just replacing 'turrets' with 'entrenched colonists'.
If 'reelizm' is the only reason behind this, then it isn't a well grounded idea.
I think a simple system of having some kind of ammo pile would be enough, or just a stockpile for ammo.
Make some ammo, have it hauled over, and set some kind of preference for how many magazines of ammo each colonist should keep a hold of. More mags = more weight, so a slower colonist. Now, reloading would be a really welcome change to weapons, it'd REALLY break-up the diversity of weapons, and allow for some sick maneuvering when your colonists or enemies are reloading.
I can just imagine all the new xml weapon tags.
<reloadTicks> and <magazineSize> and <reloadSound> and dear god it'd be amazing.
Cooldown time between shots would have to be cut big time if you want to incorporate reloading. Really, it would just shift the weight of the damage done into bursts, while keeping the same dps.
Quote from: Mathenaut on October 09, 2014, 09:39:34 PM
Cooldown time between shots would have to be cut big time if you want to incorporate reloading. Really, it would just shift the weight of the damage done into bursts, while keeping the same dps.
This would be preferable, because as it is now, colonists run up into firing range and stand there derping for what feels like forever, like it takes them that long to remember "Oh hey, I've got a gun!"
A momentary set-up time after moving should be enforced, or else an accuracy penalty for shooting from the hip, but that would favor the defenders, because entrenched defenders are already sighted in while the zerging raiders won't be; so they'll either be derping around for a bit, or firing with wildly reduced accuracy.
i'm not sure who's post this was.. but i read somewhere about the diversification of ammo.
ie : it's easier/cheaper to manufacture pistol ammo than sniper rifle ammo.
this way, people aren't always gonna choose guns with a stronger caliber, 'coz ammo economics/logistics will have to be factored in when choosing your gear.
this also makes melee more viable, since melee does not consume ammo. (turrets should use ammo too)
so.. if you say "reelizm" doesn't change a thing.. lol..
i think it's obvious that ammo and item degradation will clearly change how people fight in rimworld.
it's not just "entrenching" your men with higher supplies, players would have to think about the most efficient and the most "economical" way of winning a battle.
save your ammo when you really need it. don't build so much turrets 'coz it can easily drain your ammo stock.. etc..
Personally I like ammo it adds a new factor of 'oh fuz'. :)
I'm pretty sure it'll happen eventually. It seems like a natural progression for the game. With how well modelled the injury system is having magical guns with magical bullets seems like it would erk Tynan eventually. Guessing its a case of HOW to implement it. I personally have some ideas but they depend on a more indepth inventory system for pawns without that its very difficult
Quote from: ShadowDragon8685 on October 09, 2014, 10:58:40 PM
Quote from: Mathenaut on October 09, 2014, 09:39:34 PM
Cooldown time between shots would have to be cut big time if you want to incorporate reloading. Really, it would just shift the weight of the damage done into bursts, while keeping the same dps.
This would be preferable, because as it is now, colonists run up into firing range and stand there derping for what feels like forever, like it takes them that long to remember "Oh hey, I've got a gun!"
A momentary set-up time after moving should be enforced, or else an accuracy penalty for shooting from the hip, but that would favor the defenders, because entrenched defenders are already sighted in while the zerging raiders won't be; so they'll either be derping around for a bit, or firing with wildly reduced accuracy.
I would put the 'setup time' as a variable for certain weapons. The M24 and gattling, for example, could require a second or two after moving to start shooting- while small arms would fire immediately. The weapons themselves could have a 'magazine' stat that determines how many shots the weapon will fire before a 'reloading' downtime (where higher shooting skill will decrease the reload time).
I'd even introduce a trait that grants a cover bonus while reloading. Though, I'd prefer that melee weapons get something similar to boot.
I'll also think that a ammo restriction will nurf the weapons and force the player to build smarter defenses.
But if that is done weapons should have a larger scare effect and be more dangerus.
Hmmm...a scare effect for a weapon? That ain't a bad idea.
I'd say some powerful weapons would have a deteriorating effect on morale, causing enemies to run for cover or retreat (at least temporarily).
You do NOT want to be at the other end of the minigun when that thing starts shooting. Powerful weapons would also have downsides.
If maintenance is in, that would also mean highly-advanced weapons would require more maintenance (they degrade fast).
Other weapons may have ammo issues (expensive ammo or massive consumption)
Theres some changes that need to be made to the core game to facilitate an ammo system, I could be wrong but currently a weapon has no clue when its been fired so tracking how many shots its had since last reload wouldnt be possible on the weapon itself, projectiles are just spawned at the pawns location and sent to the target, the gun def does nothing but define the stats of the shooting. Also we'd need a more indepth inventory system to handle ammo and stuff, I dont doubt this is coming in the future, it seemslike a perfect fit.
Personally id like the current weapons to be ditched and some new improvised weapons made,I dont like the perfect guns and the amount of them being available, I have a private weapon pack thats very fallout like, currently I have:
improvised crossbow - fires metal bolts slower than original pistol - causes pierce damage
improvised 9mm pistol - First gun fires slower than original pistol, slightly faster than crossbow - causes bullet damage
Machine pistol - adapted version of the above allows burst fire
Single barrel shotgun - Hits harder than the above but close range only
Improvised Rifle - longer range but very slow to fire
Theres some others in there im playing with, the look of the guns is very worn/very improvised. I feel this fits more in line with Rimworld than a pristine m16. Im debating releasing it but i have some work to do on it first. Id like them to use an ammo system so i may wait until I know if ones coming.
Little bit of a bump, but I feel this topic generated a lot of cool discussion and deserves to be recognized still.
yesyesyesyesyes
(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq275/mrddr/MINIGUN.gif)
I want to burn trough all my ammo in seconds, but I also want to send everyone running from Puff the Magic Dragon.
It would be a good way to make melee weapons more useful. Because lets be frank, if you have a guy who gets pissey if you put a gun in their hand and only wants a stick to kill people with you send him to the liver harvesting room. Also it would be cool to just have large scale melee battles, like a group of knights raid your settlement and you just wasted all of your bullets on trying to kill a turtle for 5 days strait.
Quote from: StatikMilk30 on November 03, 2014, 09:57:48 PM
It would be a good way to make melee weapons more useful. Because lets be frank, if you have a guy who gets pissey if you put a gun in their hand and only wants a stick to kill people with you send him to the liver harvesting room.
I keep seeing people saying they kill brawlers, instead of using them, because of the gun morale penalty. Why would you do that? "Everyone must be holding a gun, no exceptions" seems like a ridiculous combat strategy. You don't win fights in the game by having everyone line up and see which side has the most guns, you win them by using cover, killboxes, turrets, mortars, melee, armor, anything that can give a low number of people an advantage over a high number of people and/or exploit the AI if the enemy's numbers are overwhelming.
Obviously a colony that was entirely or even mostly brawlers would be terrible, but I don't think a colony with none is as good as one with one or two, and they're rare anyway (like all traits). Brawlers, careful shooters, trigger-happies, and people without any combat traits all have their place in combat.
Quote from: Cimanyd on November 04, 2014, 09:21:28 PM
Quote from: StatikMilk30 on November 03, 2014, 09:57:48 PM
It would be a good way to make melee weapons more useful. Because lets be frank, if you have a guy who gets pissey if you put a gun in their hand and only wants a stick to kill people with you send him to the liver harvesting room.
I keep seeing people saying they kill brawlers, instead of using them, because of the gun morale penalty. Why would you do that? "Everyone must be holding a gun, no exceptions" seems like a ridiculous combat strategy. You don't win fights in the game by having everyone line up and see which side has the most guns, you win them by using cover, killboxes, turrets, mortars, melee, armor, anything that can give a low number of people an advantage over a high number of people and/or exploit the AI if the enemy's numbers are overwhelming.
Obviously a colony that was entirely or even mostly brawlers would be terrible, but I don't think a colony with none is as good as one with one or two, and they're rare anyway (like all traits). Brawlers, careful shooters, trigger-happies, and people without any combat traits all have their place in combat.
Actually a colony of brawlers (IMO) would be kind of good. Hide in base behind closed doors. wait for raiders to start pounding. Jump out, incap anyone nearby, jump back in and wait for the next person dumb enough to knock on the door.
Quote from: skullywag on October 13, 2014, 03:05:00 AMPersonally id like the current weapons to be ditched and some new improvised weapons made,I dont like the perfect guns and the amount of them being available
Ooh, I just imagined a system for weapons being made where they have individual parts, similar to the new health/damage system. I.e: Scope/butt/stock/trigger/etc being all tracked differently. They can be individually damaged (and thus need to be serviced/replaced individually), and swapped out in some instances (so you can get that hair-trigger double barrel you always wanted, or put a longer barrel on your rifle to extend the range a bit). Could also have a fun mid-game tech to gain access to gunsmithing technology (presumably at its own bench).