I've been following the development of this game for a while and it looks great, i really like this sort of game so have been planning on buying it at some point. Last time i looked at the site it mentioned that when you buy the game you'd get a Steam key (once it's put on Steam) as well as the DRM-free version. Why has this changed now? I'm a bit disappointed as i now have to choose between the DRM-free version or waiting until the Steam version is out. If it was still both if you buy via the site, i'd buy it right now. I can understand not having it like that forever, but I didn't realize there was a time limit on it and expected it to at least be like that while the game was in alpha as a bit more incentive to get the game early and help development.
I didn't see a time limit for the Steam Keys being included, if i had i would of bought the game while it was like that. Was the date they wouldn't be included after actually mentioned anywhere before the 4th November? There is still no anticipated release date for the game on Steam, if it was coming out soon it would make sense but it seems a long way off.
Quote from: TynanThe reason it's like this is because Valve policy doesn't allow us to promise Steam keys to people indefinitely. They seem to be generally cool about it when it's just for a Kickstarter or something, but after a while policy kicks in. They're running a business and they only make money off Steam sales, so I see their position on this.
I'm sorry for creating a bit of heartbreak about this. I'm going to see if I can get keys for people who may have missed the official deadline, but I definitely can't promise anything. Obviously I want to give as much as possible! But Valve's policies do win in this situation.
Regardless, everyone will always get all future updates at the same time, whether on or off Steam.
http://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/2m90ma/why_wont_i_get_the_steam_key_if_i_bought_it_after/
TL;DR Valve doesn't allow for Steam keys to be distributed indefinitely. Non-Steam will still be updated.
Sales = dropped. No way would I buy a digital copy of a game when its sole method of acquisition is via a download from a indie company server. What happens if Ty busts and cant make bandwidth payments? Or even if he died in a car accident or something random?
The "I'm waiting for it to come out on Steam" argument is now 100% completely valid.
Hey, no worries. Go wait until it comes out on Steam. But until then, you just won't get to enjoy the game like the rest of us.
If I die in a car accident... there won't be any more updates either way :)
But of course it's your choice when to buy. I'm happy to have you as a customer now or later.
Anyway, yes, for the reasoning, see above. That's my answer on the reddit thread. The reason it wasn't announced before is because Valve emailed me that day and asked me to stop mentioning Steam. Which made perfect sense.
Quote from: Tynan on November 18, 2014, 10:25:31 PM
The reason it wasn't announced before is because Valve emailed me that day and asked me to stop mentioning Steam. Which made perfect sense.
But what about Steam Vents? :D
Quote from: Mikhail Reign on November 18, 2014, 10:00:20 PM
Sales = dropped. No way would I buy a digital copy of a game when its sole method of acquisition is via a download from a indie company server. What happens if Ty busts and cant make bandwidth payments? Or even if he died in a car accident or something random?
The "I'm waiting for it to come out on Steam" argument is now 100% completely valid.
That's ironic since you are now contributing to the problems that would lead to the very scenario (not the car accident one) that you're worried about.
Feedback loops are beautiful and deadly.
Buy it now, then buy it on Steam, hell, buy it a third time, because Tynan is a good developer who deserves your support via buying the game several times. Even though I bought the game long before the cut off date for getting a Steam Key, I'll certainly be buying another copy, maybe on steam, maybe on the original method of payment, hell, what I'll do is use the steam key to have it on steam, plus then buy an extra copy, because Tynan is a good developer, I should know, I've seen and been around many, some good, some bad, Tynan definately falls in the good category.
Quote from: RayvenQ on November 19, 2014, 02:26:07 AM
Buy it now, then buy it on Steam, hell, buy it a third time, because Tynan is a good developer who deserves your support via buying the game several times. Even though I bought the game long before the cut off date for getting a Steam Key, I'll certainly be buying another copy, maybe on steam, maybe on the original method of payment, hell, what I'll do is use the steam key to have it on steam, plus then buy an extra copy, because Tynan is a good developer, I should know, I've seen and been around many, some good, some bad, Tynan definately falls in the good category.
Don't forget that you can also buy steam keys and gift them to others. SPREAD THE LOVE!
Quote from: Tynan on November 18, 2014, 10:25:31 PM
If I die in a car accident... there won't be any more updates either way :)
But of course it's your choice when to buy. I'm happy to have you as a customer now or later.
Anyway, yes, for the reasoning, see above. That's my answer on the reddit thread. The reason it wasn't announced before is because Valve emailed me that day and asked me to stop mentioning Steam. Which made perfect sense.
I was under the impression that it's free for a developer to generate steam keys of their game and do what they want with them, though. The Steam Greenlight page says:
QuoteIf my game is accepted through Steam Greenlight, can I give my previous customers keys for the Steam version?
Once your game is accepted for distribution on Steam, we will give you as many keys for your game as you want at no cost.
However it does also say this:
QuoteCan I give away copies of my game in exchange for votes?
We don't think that giving away copies of your game in exchange for votes accurately reflects genuine customer interest. That is something we continue to take into account when evaluating titles to be greenlit.
So it seems they don't like it when developers promise Steam keys to people in advance to get more attention. It sounds like selling the actual keys or giving them away would be fine, but that's not really what you're doing right now so it's understandable.
I bought the game anyway, looking forward to trying it out.
Quote from: TheVoidDragon on November 19, 2014, 05:13:14 AM
QuoteCan I give away copies of my game in exchange for votes?
We don't think that giving away copies of your game in exchange for votes accurately reflects genuine customer interest. That is something we continue to take into account when evaluating titles to be greenlit.
So it seems they don't like it when developers promise Steam keys to people in advance to get more attention. It sounds like selling the actual keys or giving them away would be fine, but that's not really what you're doing right now so it's understandable.
The point of: "Steam keys for votes" is that they don't want games to be just voted on because the voters will get keys for free and that means that the votes don't really have a meaning ("Oh look! I can get a game for free if I vote on it! I love free games."). It's like giving out free samples to the first thousand people and everyone after that will have to pay.
We won't have the problem with Rimworld though: Most of us bought it already even if we don't get a steam-key, so the "bribing voters with keys" part won't affect us (I highly suspect that we have more than enough people here that bought the game already and will vote for Rimworld on Greenlight, if it ever goes there)
Quote from: Darkfirephoenix on November 19, 2014, 05:33:53 AM
Quote from: TheVoidDragon on November 19, 2014, 05:13:14 AM
QuoteCan I give away copies of my game in exchange for votes?
We don't think that giving away copies of your game in exchange for votes accurately reflects genuine customer interest. That is something we continue to take into account when evaluating titles to be greenlit.
So it seems they don't like it when developers promise Steam keys to people in advance to get more attention. It sounds like selling the actual keys or giving them away would be fine, but that's not really what you're doing right now so it's understandable.
The point of: "Steam keys for votes" is that they don't want games to be just voted on because the voters will get keys for free and that means that the votes don't really have a meaning ("Oh look! I can get a game for free if I vote on it! I love free games."). It's like giving out free samples to the first thousand people and everyone after that will have to pay.
We won't have the problem with Rimworld though: Most of us bought it already even if we don't get a steam-key, so the "bribing voters with keys" part won't affect us (I highly suspect that we have more than enough people here that bought the game already and will vote for Rimworld on Greenlight, if it ever goes there)
It seems Valve doesn't like developers saying "Buy my non-Steam game/Vote for it and I might give you a Steam key if i get them at some point, maybe". Several developers have promised Steam keys and then not given them away once their game was released. It sounds like developers shouldn't really promise to give them to people if they don't actually have any keys yet.
Tynan could give keys to people who buy it via the site anyway if he wanted to once the game is released on Steam. Including them with the DRM-Free version or giving them away would be fine once it's on Steam, just selling a promise isn't.
Wait so I can't have a Steam key for when it's released??
Quote from: litlbear on November 19, 2014, 10:19:57 PM
Wait so I can't have a Steam key for when it's released??
What date did you buy it on?
Quote from: Tynan on November 18, 2014, 10:25:31 PM
If I die in a car accident... there won't be any more updates either way :)
God damnit tynan don't suggest that. I hope you are playing life on pheobe friendly and not randy random.
Life is always played on Randy Random...at least it's not Cassandra.
And for those who don't have time to read the whole thread and knee jerk react to the ambiguously worded thread topic: If you bought RimWorld before or on the 4th of November 2014 then you will still receive a Steam Key. If you bought it after that date then you probably won't.
Can a Mod edit the thread title to something like: "Why aren't Steam keys included with purchased after 4 November 2014" or something a little more elegant that removes the possible ambiguity in 'anymore' which I myself thought meant that they were being removed from all purchases.
also, where can we check if rimworld is on greenlight? (i don't check greenlight, ludeon forums, daily. lol)
Quote from: keylocke on November 20, 2014, 06:50:54 AM
also, where can we check if rimworld is on greenlight? (i don't check greenlight, ludeon forums, daily. lol)
Its already been successfully greenlit
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=183032873
Now all it needs is to be finished enough in Tynans opinion to be fit enough for Steam.
As soon as he believes it to be there he can put it up, but seeing how much early access games are being torn apart I can see why he would wait until its really good enough.
It wouldn't do to have the forum flooded by trolls and constant negative bashing would even demotivate the toughest developer, so let it take the time it needs :-)
EDIT: Thought you meant we had like a certain amount of time to claim them, my bad, yes we get keys.
Quote from: litlbear on November 20, 2014, 02:51:38 PM
I bought this game a loooong time ago, not sure when. Upset that I don't get a key.
This isn't at all what this thread is saying. Please re-read the thread and edit your post so-as no to confuse others.
The only reason I would want to see it on Steam would be because it would be (very slightly) easier receiving updates through Steam. Early Access is a minefield of trolls asking when the next update will be et cetera. I'm happy to support the independent development of Rimworld as it stands.
I've updated the thread title to clarify the actual policy situation here. See the FAQ on ludeon.com for more info if you want it.
Quote from: Tynan on November 20, 2014, 04:14:22 PM
I've updated the thread title to clarify the actual policy situation here. See the FAQ on ludeon.com for more info if you want it.
Thanks, hopefully that stops people from misunderstanding what i meant.
I'm not too sure If I've got something wrong myself, though. Valve have said they don't want you mentioning Steam Keys at the moment while selling the game via the site, which is fine. However, doesn't this part on the Steam Greenlight FAQ mean that there isn't really anything stopping you giving them to people who purchase after Nov 4 once the game is released on Steam anyway, if you wanted to?
QuoteIf my game is accepted through Steam Greenlight, can I give my previous customers keys for the Steam version?
Once your game is accepted for distribution on Steam, we will give you as many keys for your game as you want at no cost.
Void, you're correct. In fact I don't know any more than you do; Valve's policies are there to read. Bottom line is, I can't promise anything.
Quote from: Mikhail Reign on November 18, 2014, 10:00:20 PM
Sales = dropped. No way would I buy a digital copy of a game when its sole method of acquisition is via a download from a indie company server. What happens if Ty busts and cant make bandwidth payments? Or even if he died in a car accident or something random?
The "I'm waiting for it to come out on Steam" argument is now 100% completely valid.
'
TBH, that argument is actually for the benefit of Ludeon, in a strange way.
Most people fall into one of three categories. A) They have no problems playing alphas, and won't get tired of it. B) They have no problem playing alphas, but WILL eventually get tired of the game, and C) They hate alphas. Regardless, if someone falls into B or C, its better for them to first play a near/already completed game, as they will recommend it a lot more quickly since they don't have to tack on the "but its in alpha" to their friends, which puts some people off, namely group C.
Thus, if people fall into B or C, its better for them to wait for the steam version anyways.
I understand what Ty is saying but this prevented me from buying the game this weekend. I want to buy and support RimWorld because it looks wonderful.
But if I purchase now, I am not guaranteed a Steam key. Everyone who purchased before November 4th is. At some point in the future - for example, 6 months from now if/when the game is Greenlighted or released Early Access on Steam - everyone will get one then too. So there could be a very minor subset of players who are the only ones who don't have Steam keys. If that subset is small enough - and it is likely to be quite small - there could be major long-term hassles. Patches may not be tested on the non-Steam versions or come out later if the vast majority of the players are using the Steam version. Mods, especially if the game eventually uses Steam Workshop - may not be possible to even get on the non-Steam version. There may be other complications like dealing with activation keys in the long-term. It's not a good situation.
I understand Ty's hands are tied, but this opens up a host of potential issues for buyers. It's no longer about forking over the money for a product you may or may not like in alpha with no demo but now it's questionable whether such a buyer will be able to receive long-term support, mods and keys because that buyer will be out in left field.
When Steam keys can be guaranteed again, I'm looking forward to buying it.
Well. The game updates will always come out for non-Steam players at the same time as Steam players.
I'm not planning on doing Steam Workshop integration, though it could happen.
Anyway, I respect whichever choice you make. Happy to have you as a customer now or later.
Quote from: Granath on November 29, 2014, 10:40:04 PM
I understand what Ty is saying but this prevented me from buying the game this weekend. I want to buy and support RimWorld because it looks wonderful.
But if I purchase now, I am not guaranteed a Steam key. Everyone who purchased before November 4th is. At some point in the future - for example, 6 months from now if/when the game is Greenlighted or released Early Access on Steam - everyone will get one then too. So there could be a very minor subset of players who are the only ones who don't have Steam keys. If that subset is small enough - and it is likely to be quite small - there could be major long-term hassles. Patches may not be tested on the non-Steam versions or come out later if the vast majority of the players are using the Steam version. Mods, especially if the game eventually uses Steam Workshop - may not be possible to even get on the non-Steam version. There may be other complications like dealing with activation keys in the long-term. It's not a good situation.
I understand Ty's hands are tied, but this opens up a host of potential issues for buyers. It's no longer about forking over the money for a product you may or may not like in alpha with no demo but now it's questionable whether such a buyer will be able to receive long-term support, mods and keys because that buyer will be out in left field.
When Steam keys can be guaranteed again, I'm looking forward to buying it.
With a game such as Rimworld, that has no multiplayer, no Hack detection, and is coded in a very open language, steam and non-steam updates are largely in sync because steam doesn't drastically alter how the game runs. Its mainly those 3 above things that do that, which in turn cause a nightmare for the syncing of the two. Thus, getting it via steam or not effectively will be the same thing because even if *shudder* Ludeon goes bust, I'm sure there will still be cough *alternative* download links that will last long after the twinkle in our eye is gone. Therefore, there really is no reason to NOT buy it now, even though you aren't getting the steam key, because you can always just manually add it into steam anyways, which is what I have done.
It sounds like ty can give out as many keys as he wants anyway they just didnt want him to promise them anymore.So there is a chance he doesnt expect everyone who bought the game after the 4th to buy it again but that is his choice.
It kind of does make sense why steam would want to limit distribution of steam keys.
I'm usually surprised when i see games being sold on 'indie' websites that offer a steam key.
This because as someone from Europe, steam is quite expensive, but on indie websites the price is much lower because there's no 1:1 euro:dollar ratio.
So it's pretty much a no-brainer for me, or other people in my situation, to buy on the website rather than on steam when the websites offer steam keys anyway. Steam would be losing quite a bit of profit for this, and i'm guessing that they anticipate for rimworld to grow significantly, otherwise they wouldn't really bother.
Quote from: Ironvos on December 03, 2014, 07:52:53 AM
It kind of does make sense why steam would want to limit distribution of steam keys.
I'm usually surprised when i see games being sold on 'indie' websites that offer a steam key.
This because as someone from Europe, steam is quite expensive, but on indie websites the price is much lower because there's no 1:1 euro:dollar ratio.
So it's pretty much a no-brainer for me, or other people in my situation, to buy on the website rather than on steam when the websites offer steam keys anyway. Steam would be losing quite a bit of profit for this, and i'm guessing that they anticipate for rimworld to grow significantly, otherwise they wouldn't really bother.
They don't really limit distribution of steam keys, though, they let the developer do whatever they like with the Steam keys. I don't think they have a problem with giving away keys for Rimworld, just promising them to people at this point as the game isn't available on Steam yet.
Quote from: ccheuer on November 30, 2014, 03:04:34 PMWith a game such as Rimworld, that has no multiplayer, no Hack detection, and is coded in a very open language, steam and non-steam updates are largely in sync because steam doesn't drastically alter how the game runs. Its mainly those 3 above things that do that, which in turn cause a nightmare for the syncing of the two. Thus, getting it via steam or not effectively will be the same thing because even if *shudder* Ludeon goes bust, I'm sure there will still be cough *alternative* download links that will last long after the twinkle in our eye is gone. Therefore, there really is no reason to NOT buy it now, even though you aren't getting the steam key, because you can always just manually add it into steam anyways, which is what I have done.
ccheuer, I think your response is reasonable, but glosses over some of the difficulties that non-Steam players may have.
It's unlikely that there will be problems with patches for different versions, but it is possible. If 90+% of the player base is on one platform, those who are not will not be given the same attention. It's a natural outcome.
While I appreciate Ty's excellent response regarding mods, Steam Workshop Integration is not ruled out. If you're stuck with a non-Steam version and he decides that Steam Workshop is the way to go - and it's a great tool - then those with non-Steam versions could be very well left out in the cold for mods.
The biggest risk is if Ty & Co. close up shop after release. Those with Steam versions will be able to download their game presumably forever. I have been on the unfortunate receiving end of smaller game developers going bust or outsourcing their licensing to other entities and not being able to reactivate a program on a new machine (Via-Tech, anyone?). There are certain games I like to play from a decade ago (Startopia, Baldur's Gate) and I don't want to have to repurchase them because I can no longer get a legal download. *Alternate* (ahem) download sites are not a good solution.
They're not major risks. Probably none of this will happen and everything will be fine. But having been burned on some of these types of issues before, I prefer to not proceed outside of the "normal" purchasing pattern that most customers will experience - i.e., Steam keys.
Of course, the question is "why are you interested now"? After all, I've been following this game for some time. You can thank Prison Architect. I played PA some months ago and it didn't particularly engage me. Recently I've been playing it again and found it quite enjoyable. I pretty much experienced everything it has to offer in about 30 hours though and was looking for something to continue that kind of experience - something with more depth. Hence my renewed interest.
I realize that I'm probably pulling this from the graveyard, but felt it better than creating a new topic. At least it's only a week old.
I am very interested in buying the game. What I can gather from the discussion is that Valve asked the developer to stop talking about steam while buying on the site. From that the guarantee that someone who buys the game would get a steam key was then limited to the date of the correspondence. It seems some have taken this to mean that if it is bought after, a steam key will not be issued. Will it be something similar to Kerbal Space Program, or other Early Access games, where we would have the option of transferring to steam, not just given a steam key?
From there it becomes a waiting game. I don't have the ability to buy the game 3 times as suggested(I know there was jest), though if I did I would love to support an indie developer. I would prefer it be on steam as I'm sure many would, but I would also like to buy the game. I guess I'm left asking when the steam ETA is looking, and I feel shame for asking it.
It was mentioned that a Steam key would be given in addition to the DRM-Free version, so transferring seems unlikely. There hasn't been any mention of putting the game on Steam soon that I've seen, so it is probably going to be quite some time.
There is still a chance you will get a Steam key as well, once the game is out it seems Tynan will be able to give them away if he wanted to. He has said he will see what he can do about it so hopefully if there isn't actually anything stopping him, he'll give keys to people who back even after the data it was stopped. Even if that doesn't happen i still think it's worth buying the game at the moment, it's great. For me it was a choice between support development by buying the game now with only a chance of getting a Steam key, or wait an undetermined amount of time for the game to be released on Steam and there being the possibility Steam keys would be included anyway, meaning me waiting for it to be released on Steam would have been a bit pointless.I wanted both if possible as i prefer playing games on Steam and would like a DRM-Free version to play when i can't use that, but I bought the game anyway and don't regret it.
I went ahead and just bought the game. WOOHOO. Hopefully it all works out.
Don't we have limited downloads though? It says I only have 7 or so downloads left. Unless it refreshes everytime the game updates. ( I am pretty new started right when A8 came out)
Normally it refreshes with every new alpha build.
Quote from: ishot2drop on January 25, 2015, 05:27:52 PM
Don't we have limited downloads though? It says I only have 7 or so downloads left. Unless it refreshes everytime the game updates. ( I am pretty new started right when A8 came out)
I also took the dive a few weeks ago, very glad I did - this game is amazing, even in alpha.
The more good games that are not on Steam the better, anyway. Steam is evil.