I have an ex-marine with a full set of power armor, an M-16, and an 11 rating for shooting.
Son of b*tch still can't hit the broad side of a barn, and is constantly getting knocked the frack out by the likes of stone clubs.
I have failed(and reloaded the auto save) the last 3 raid defense attempts because of this.
Does power armor not actually provide decent protection?
Why is his accuracy 95%+ and he still can't hit anything? (also why is everyone else's accuracy 93%+ when they have a shooting rating of 3?!)
Please tell me what I am doing wrong... :(
Well there is more to look at other then his shooting skill. Look at his heath there are all kinds of different things that could make him a poor shoot. Like how old is he dose he have bad eye sight. is he missing a arm a finger. I think all of this shows up.
I had a guy I was using as a hunter but it took him 12 shots to get one hit even with a shooting 11. He had cataract in his right eye and he was missing a finger off his left hand. I got him a new eye and a new arm and he got a lot better more like his numbers should be for a good shot.
Being a ex-marine may mean he been hurt in the past or he just seen to many years to still be at his best. Look in to that if he still sucks then I do not know what to tell you. I am have only been playing for 2 weeks now and I am still find out there more I don't know then i do. Make the game even more fun.
Hit chances are like old XCom/Xenonauts. There's little need to pay attention to them when you can hit 4/10 shots with an LMG but hit one in ten with a sniper rifle.
your ex-marine is a true stormtrooper =P
Check him for cataracts?
Some tips:
1) Spread out your colonists. Hide them behind cover (wall, tree, even rock debris). Usually at least five or spaces apart, or:
2) Always hide them behind something. There is a nice mod that has Embrasures (basically, a hole in a wall to shoot through that provides cover). Usually, I'll make a sealed in area that looks like this with X being the embrasure and O being solid wall, D being the door, s being sandbags:
ssssssssss ssssssssss
XOXOXOXDXOXOXOX
O O
________D________
The straight line can be anything from a wall to the side of a mountain. Position the colonists behind the wall. They will peek out and fire from behind it. I believe (but I'm not sure) that the colonists get a bonus from firing from behind cover. They CERTAINLY take a lot less damage. It's also a good idea to spread them out in here as well, as much as possible. If you have a large number of colonists, make the embrasure bigger.
It's pretty easy (especially after a few raids) to figure out where the raiders will be drawn to. I try to make my colony in a mountain, so they will always try for the front door. If you make a kill room (which is easily enough to find on here) you can utilize the embrasure idea for full effect. I generally put my turrets slightly in front of and to the side of where my colonists are because the raiders will go for them first and let you pick off the raiders as you do.
Do you actually have him behind some sort of cover or is he in the open?
Something else no one's mentioned yet is the fact that you're being melee'd.
Every gun takes x-amount of time to aim, regardless of how close the hostiles are, and when you get hit, the counter essentially resets. So if someone's hitting Jimmy Dean with a club, Jimmy Dean isn't shooting - he's just getting the hell beat out of him. On top of that, if Pork'n'Beans is shooting at the hostile that's attacking Jimmy Dean, there's a decent chance that he's also going to hit Jimmy Dean, too.
So, as nuschler suggested, you'll want a defensive line. If that, for some reason, fails or you're being mortared, just be ready to multi-task - if Jimmy Dean is being or about to be melee'd, try to keep him moving while Pork'n'Beans shoots at the hostile pursuing Jimmy, but try to make sure the path Jimmy Dean takes keeps him out of fire.
Aim for something behind the target if you can. Bullets hit things in the way more than they hit their target.
Lighting, cover, etc. Would be helpful to see a screenshot.
I always put him behind cover.
I just checked, yea he is missing a finger and got a crushed eye.
I guess that accounts for his bad shot.
:(
Still don't know why power armor sucks so much tho.
How can a neolithic club take out a dude in power armor?
Is 47 really too old for power armor to be effective?
Where is the 'powered' part of the armor if it can't make up for that...
Quote from: milon on January 06, 2015, 12:54:11 PM
Lighting, cover, etc. Would be helpful to see a screenshot.
Definitely this. Shooters get several accuracy penalties for things like darkness, rain, light hypothermia, etc.
For a screenshot, just hit F10 in game, and that will save a pic to C:\Users\[your username]\AppData\LocalLow\Ludeon Studios\RimWorld\Screenshots. I'd recommend hosting the picture on Imgur instead of attaching to forum posts here, since those file size limits are often too small.
Like everyone is saying, also check his health. I have a level 9 surgeon, for example, who has a nearly 0% success rate because of his two cataracts.
One last factor is blunt weapons are one of the best weapons to use against armor (just like they were used historically). Of course the downside to using a club is getting shot by turrets and colonists before getting in melee range.
Quote from: HalinderBlunt weapons, namedly the club and mace, hit in decent succession as well as deal blunt/brute damage. This surpasses most armor considerably better than sharp damage, and while it may not cause the enemy to bleed to death, chances are you'll bludgeon them first anyway. They have a tendency to damage bone which leads to extra devastation. So uh. That.
more reading: Halinder, "RE: A jolly good punch up" 27 December 2014. (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=8650.msg85653#msg85653)
Quote from: erdrik on January 06, 2015, 02:14:08 PM
I always put him behind cover.
I just checked, yea he is missing a finger and got a crushed eye.
I guess that accounts for his bad shot.
:(
Still don't know why power armor sucks so much tho.
How can a neolithic club take out a dude in power armor?
Is 47 really too old for power armor to be effective?
Where is the 'powered' part of the armor if it can't make up for that...
Power armor dose not realy help counter for damage eyes or limbs. Give him a bionic eye and a arm. He will be kick ass after. I have found the bionic bring back my best people. I alway keep a few on hand when I have the money to buy them. Anyway I hope it give you back your your best fighter.
Quote from: Vonholtz on January 06, 2015, 03:22:24 PM
Power armor dose not realy help counter for damage eyes or limbs. Give him a bionic eye and a arm. He will be kick ass after. I have found the bionic bring back my best people. I alway keep a few on hand when I have the money to buy them. Anyway I hope it give you back your your best fighter.
Never claimed it did. (tho a targeting helm would be a pretty badass glitterworld gear. )
I was mostly just wondering if the powered component of power armor would help with taking a hit or countering the frailty of old age.
(manipulation / mobility / general durability ect...)
@REMworlder: ok so blunt weapons are good at breaking armor... I could understand breaking armor vests, but glitterworld power armor?!
Is this intended or just a balancing issue that hasn't been gotten to yet?
(Halinder had a nice bit of info, but he isn't the dev... )
Quote from: erdrik on January 06, 2015, 05:16:37 PM
Quote from: Vonholtz on January 06, 2015, 03:22:24 PM
Power armor dose not realy help counter for damage eyes or limbs. Give him a bionic eye and a arm. He will be kick ass after. I have found the bionic bring back my best people. I alway keep a few on hand when I have the money to buy them. Anyway I hope it give you back your your best fighter.
Never claimed it did. (tho a targeting helm would be a pretty badass glitterworld gear. )
I was mostly just wondering if the powered component of power armor would help with taking a hit or countering the frailty of old age.
(manipulation / mobility / general durability ect...)
@REMworlder: ok so blunt weapons are good at breaking armor... I could understand breaking armor vests, but glitterworld power armor?!
Is this intended or just a balancing issue that hasn't been gotten to yet?
(Halinder had a nice bit of info, but he isn't the dev... )
Nah, this isn't MJONIR from the halo universe. It's basically just beefy armor. Even slows down their walking speed a bit.
Also, try to get someone whose good at melee to defend your colonists from melee attacks.
Or even getting autoturrets up and the attackers will focus on those first.
QuoteIs this intended or just a balancing issue that hasn't been gotten to yet?
(Halinder had a nice bit of info, but he isn't the dev... )
You can always check out the game info yourself if you're not sure! Just open up the files and check it all out. For example you can see in ThingDefs\Weapons_Melee.xml that maces and clubs do blunt damage: <meleeDamageDef>Blunt</meleeDamageDef>
Then in TypeDefs\BaseDamageTypes.xml to see that blunt damage is the only damage type that can mess up stuff inside the target even if it doesn't actually penetrate to where the organ/thing being damaged is: <hasChanceToAdditionallyDamageInnerSolidParts>true</hasChanceToAdditionallyDamageInnerSolidParts>
And melee will probably be changed next patch as well. There's definitely an emphasis being put on melee because of incoming changes like personal shields and armor damage.
That doesn't speak to what is intended, only to what is currently implemented.
Ive been lurking and interacting here enough to know development changes happen frequently and sweepingly enough that implemented can = temporary..
@christhekiller it doesn't have to be Halo or Warhammer armor, but it does have to be better than caveman weapons.
At the very least it needs to be useful. Currently power armor is worthless against neolithic raids.
Because of the neolithic numbers per raid and health bonus you are guaranteed to be embroiled in melee, and apparently there is no defense capable of defeating the all powerful stone club.
Remember there are many factors in hitting a target with range. Select your shooter and put your cursor over the target. it should pop up the stats. Darkness and weather are my biggest bane.
Remember not to let melee get too close, most range take too long to shoot and the melee will hit you and reset your cooldown. If you can't get away, melee them over shooting them.
The issue with accuracy was resolved.
You statements on melee does not change my stance on 'stone club vs. power armor'.
Namely: Stone club should lose.
Quote from: erdrik on January 07, 2015, 05:05:54 PM
That doesn't speak to what is intended, only to what is currently implemented.
Ive been lurking and interacting here enough to know development changes happen frequently and sweepingly enough that implemented can = temporary..
@christhekiller it doesn't have to be Halo or Warhammer armor, but it does have to be better than caveman weapons.
At the very least it needs to be useful. Currently power armor is worthless against neolithic raids.
Because of the neolithic numbers per raid and health bonus you are guaranteed to be embroiled in melee, and apparently there is no defense capable of defeating the all powerful stone club.
My general defense against melee attackers is melee defenders. Get a brawler or some people specialized in melee, give them a longsword and some power armor and there will be few tribals who could stand against them.
The trick is knowing when to withdraw a ranged fighter. If you see two or three melee fighters barreling towards them, pull them back to a safer place. The AI will take time to recalculate at which point, you can get a few shots/swings in from other fighters. Never let 2 or more fighters get the drop on you!
Neither of those are the point.
I know how to kite. I know how to tank.
Im saying a power armor equip colonist shouldn't have to worry about stone clubs.
The reason I didn't kite, is because I correctly assumed a stone club would not be a threat.
Steel clubs? yes. Kite for days.
Plasteel anything? yes. Kite for days.
But a fracking rock on a stick?! Hell no. I should be able to take that hit and laugh at the chump afterwards.
Or at the very least take several hits before even being effected, not 'knocked the frack out in one hit'.
The thing with armor is that it is designed more to deflect, or spread the impact over a larger area.
With some form of ammunition, that deflection or spreading of impact is minimal. With a club of whatever material, the initial impact area is vastly larger than the impact of a shell.
So? Bullets are made of refined metal, and travel at high velocity.
Stone way more brittle and travels much slower. The club would break itself before it broke the power armor.
(I see you said "a club of whatever material". The topic of conversation is Stone Club vs Power Armor. Try not to deflect next time.( lol See what I did there. :D ) )
Quote from: erdrik on January 09, 2015, 05:50:26 AM
So? Bullets are made of refined metal, and travel at high velocity.
Stone way more brittle and travels much slower. The club would break itself before it broke the power armor.
(I see you said "a club of whatever material". The topic of conversation is Stone Club vs Power Armor. Try not to deflect next time.( lol See what I did there. :D ) )
Velocity is not the factor which determines damage. It is applied force. And force is the multiplikation of mass and acceleration. While a bullet has little mass but massive acceleration (or better decelleration on impact) it can apply and buttload of force. Let us assume a stoneclub with relativ high mass swung skillfully to the fullest could do apply the same force. In such scenario the bullet "wins" beause the force is applied on a much smaller area and therefore more concentrated.
now comes the armor. Armor intends to spread out the applied force so that small or sharp weapons lose their effectiveness. (As stated by immoral_ and other posts.) But it will not help you against clubs cause of the high mass it wont lose its effectiveness.
There are many examples of this blunt damage piercing through armor. I want to state 2 here. First bullet vs. bulletproof vest. The vest stops the bullet from infiltrating the body. But you will of cause get bruises at the impact area and you are most likely to fall of your feet. So blunt damage still hits your boddy (and damages it despite being small and area spread due to vest)
The second Example is a soldier in steel armor vs. mace and sword. A sword has very hard times when it needs to penetrate massive steel armor. The mace on the other hand simply ignores the armor and apply its blunt force th the armor and the armor pass on the force to the body.
So as long the power armor does not have any kind of force field its effectiveness against a skillfully swung stoneclub remains decreased.
Quote from: Zerkuran on January 09, 2015, 06:41:09 AM
Velocity is not the factor which determines damage. It is applied force. And force is the multiplikation of mass and acceleration.
And what is acceleration?
oh right,
velocity / time.
Velocity
is a part of the equation.
If it wasn't the concept of a weaponized particle accelerator would not exist.
If it wasn't micro meteoroids, and other small space debris would not be a threat to our spacecraft.
The old adage remains true: speed kills.
Quote from: Zerkuran on January 09, 2015, 06:41:09 AM
While a bullet has little mass but massive acceleration (or better decelleration on impact) it can apply and buttload of force. Let us assume a stoneclub with relativ high mass swung skillfully to the fullest could do apply the same force. In such scenario the bullet "wins" beause the force is applied on a much smaller area and therefore more concentrated.
The bullet also wins against the armor.
When pitted against armor, bullets generally only fail against superior thickness or special layering/properties.
Kevlar is actually a synthetic cloth weave. It protect through tension strength.
When struck the bullet gets tangled and tries to pull and tear its way through, but can't because of the tensile strength.
5.56 non-AP can penetrate 1/2 in. thick steel. The M-24 is 7.62.
In this context, if power armor can stop a M-24 sniper round(which it can from what Ive seen) then it probably has better protection than
at least 1/2 thick steel.
Probably more, especially if power armor is made of plasteel.
(2.8x durability, 35% added agility stat probably can count as less weight(allows for thicker armor in areas) )
Quote from: Zerkuran on January 09, 2015, 06:41:09 AM
now comes the armor. Armor intends to spread out the applied force so that small or sharp weapons lose their effectiveness. (As stated by immoral_ and other posts.) But it will not help you against clubs cause of the high mass it wont lose its effectiveness.
Again, that depends on the thickness, durability, and strength of the armor.
Quote from: Zerkuran on January 09, 2015, 06:41:09 AM
So as long the power armor does not have any kind of force field its effectiveness against a skillfully swung stoneclub remains decreased.
Decreased effectiveness does not equal one hit knock out.
Decreased effectiveness does not prevent the stone club from breaking itself apart against a material of superior strength and durability.
Im sorry but it seems to me the amount of mass required to turn a stone club into the one hit wonder I experienced, would also make it too heavy to be used reliably in combat.
EDIT:
And that doesn't get into the obvious gameplay reasons that this should not be.
Tried finding a earlier post about how the game treats armor, but alass i failed.
But from memory (and mines not so good) rimworld armor reduces dmg more so then avoid it. And iirc defence values over 50% add the above value as avoidance.
As such with current formula even a wooden spoon can dmg ppl using power armor.
My personal opinion is that in order for colonist soldiers to be used above turrets and kill zones the survivability of combat has to be increased. As of now vanilla combat results to often in maiming or death.
Now that beeing said I belive we should be carefull when asuming power armor is a 100% body covering armor wh 40k style. Yes it covers arms and legs but where does it says it covers all of it?
You seem to have fallen into that classic trap of trying to apply real world logic and physics to game logic and physics, OP. Zerkuran is not helping this.
Real world science is irrelevant. Power armour (and any other form of armour or clothing) will reduce damage to a minimum and then lessen the chance to even take damage at all.
Ranged weapons of all kinds, from bows to sniper rifles, have a certain base accuracy at particular ranges. This is usually decaying though there is at least one weapon, the Charge Lance, which actually sees it's base accuracy increase over range. On top of this, a pawn's shooting skill also causes a weapon's accuracy to degrade further. The result is that weapon accuracy at anything more than 10 paces is absolutely piss poor according to the math, with hit chances perpetually below 20%.
And to spice things up, there are different types of damage and armours do not resist all damage equally. Off the top of my head, there is cutting, stabbing, blunt, explosive, electrical, gunshots and generic. I've probably missed a few. Most armours defend against a few of these damage types but not all. If armour does not have resistance to a particular damage, the game acts as if you just don't have that armour equipped for the purposes of calculating damage.
Unfortunately, the lines are blurred as resistance is used as a catchall term and I hope it's clarified down the line.
All in all, this means that the chances of your colonists taking damage are largely to the whims of RNGesus and the best thing you can do is actively (through positioning of colonists in combat) and passively (through armour) reduce the chance of taking damage while maximizing the chance of the enemy taking damage. Volume of fire works well as Centipedes constantly demonstrate with their miniguns and charge blasters. Putting your colonists in darkness while ensuring that anywhere an enemy must trudge is lit up, using walls for full cover bonuses and using chokepoints to ensure your colonists shoot more than the enemy does are ways of lessening the crap that goes on during a raid. This also means melee is an exceptionally sketchy prospect so the counterbalance is that pretty much any melee implement barring fists also does extreme damage. Colonists can die to an enraged tortoise while having eyes bitten out and arms broken and it just serves as a reminder that this is a game. IRL, I can't see why you wouldn't just go around the tortoise and flip it over. It's not like it'll react with any degree of speed. But such wounds sustained by colonists seem to imply they just lay down with the tortoise and try to punch it's shell fruitlessly.
Hehe that image in my head of colonist vs turtle fist fight cracks me up.
But aye combat is very RNG atm. But at the same time so is RL combat. There is this quote that says that roughly says a bullet fired by 12 year old is as deadly as one fiered by a soldier.
The difference is how often they hit.
But while current mechanics can be argued one way or the other I still feel that using colonists in combat is not encuraged atm. While the risk should be there I feel that atm it is so large there doesnt seem to be any benefit.
Armor, weapon and skill have so little impact that tactical base design out perform them all.
some form of tweak is needed in order to make it valid beyond the first 10-20 min of gameplay.
In real life, kevlar will stop some bullets, but it will not stop a club. Heck, Kevlar will not stop knives. It should be no surprise that different armor types will effect attacks from different weapons differently.
Quote from: Kinakin on January 09, 2015, 10:14:57 AM
Hehe that image in my head of colonist vs turtle fist fight cracks me up.
I found the screenshots (http://puu.sh/cIT7a/6ee6f31b23.jpg) of such nonsense. Angry Tortoise 2 - 0 Colonists (http://puu.sh/cITcE/88d6b2efe1.jpg).
And yes, in very small numbers, your own tactics and skill of your colonists plus the weapons they use is certainly more notable. But only when it's less than like 5-6 pawns total across both sides. Once you move higher than that, with the number of bullets a raiding team can put downrange, especially with the likes of Project Armoury which introduces a terrifying number of automatic weapons, colonists will die. Your typical colony of 10-12 cannot put out enough shots at range with M-24s to drop 30-40 tribals before they're throwing Pila, drawing bows and stabbing with pointy sticks. If you try to go for massed LMG fire, you'll probably find you still can't hold because the LMGs don't put them down at all and at worst, stun them then have long downtimes between bursts. Shotguns? It's a little too late for shotgunning.
I modded the Lee Enfield to be able to cycle rounds every two seconds. -AND- I gave it a range of about 70 tiles with perfect accuracy at all ranges. My 20 colonists cannot kill a typical raiding team before they're in range despite the pretty big advantages given to them with these Enfields. Legs are lost. Eyes are lost. Arms are lost. Even with most of the colony being more machine than man with bionic arms, legs, eyes and minds, they cannot kill fast enough. Added to that, such fast fire rates on the Enfields have unveiled a certain kind of overkill where everyone will target the closest raider, fire, start aiming again and then that one raider will die and everyone starts aiming again at a new raider. It wastes valuable time that they don't have and the fix is extreme micromanagement, turning the game into a slideshow as I get every colonist to target a different raider in the mass of bodies charging towards them so that hopefully they continue firing for longer and misses on their intended target still hit someone in the approaching flood of flesh. Not to mention that any raider lucky enough to spawn with an Enfield is also firing back from well beyond effective ranges but it doesn't matter because if you just throw enough shit, something will stick and, by god, do those 2-3% hit chances at nighttime through 30 different trees and rocks stick a helluva lot.
I find melee has another big problem in that you can stack up bodies. Raiders do it all the time. If you peg someone in melee, it stuns them and forces them to stay in position for a while which means another raider can clip through the first one and peg you again. And another, and another, and another, and soon it's an orgy with 6-7 raiders pounding on a single colonist that is being stunlocked in position. Playing with the zombies mod exaggerated this greatly because once the first couple months had passed, if someone was caught while kiting 30-40 zombies around, they were dead. So many hits land on them that they just turn red and stay red until they fall over or outright die.
I think what is discussed here is the "ironman landing" problem.
If Ironman had no "inertial dampeners" of any sort, Tony would be turned into a red jelly on the first of those cool landings he does (the instant desacceleration is just the same as if he just hit the ground with no suit).
Similarly, a non-dampened ironman suit hit by a truck, would be like Tony being hit by an armor-shaped truck.
I think a large stone club actually hits harder than a bullet. When the bullet is fired, half the energy is used to fire the bullet, and the other half is transferred to the body and the gun in the form of recoil (you are essentially catching another bullet with your bare hand, its just this second bullet is larger and has a grip). Now imagine being hit in the hand with a large stone club :)
My biggest issue in RimWorld combat are the pirate snipers that begin showing uo mid-to-late game, and to a lesser extent Scythers.
While I'm typically able to circumvent the sniper issue by setting up a large enough kill room, I've had some colonies where it simply isn't viable for a variety of reasons (isn't supported by terrain, no close steam vents and too little space for mass solar panels/windmills, etc.) and by the late game I really begin to suffer when six or more pirates are armed with M24s.
I'm basically wondering if there's any good "anti-sniper" tactics beyond just arming up colonists with M24s and Lee Enfields and hoping for the best. I've tried rushing them down with shotgunners/melee specialists after dispatching their friends, but tend to take high casualties just due to how accurate their fire is. Worse, when I just set up countersnipers I still take extreme casualties, with one or more getting maimed while their return fire either misses outright, or damages them in a way that doesn't impede their accuracy.
Quote from: Kinakin on January 09, 2015, 09:32:57 AM
Now that beeing said I belive we should be carefull when asuming power armor is a 100% body covering armor wh 40k style. Yes it covers arms and legs but where does it says it covers all of it?
And yet it is significantly better at stopping bullets.
In the very next game, my power armor equip shotgunner withstood 4 barrages of a mechaoids charge blaster with no injury.
Pretty sure the fat bugger would have been injured if power armor was not full coverage.
Quote from: Goo Poni on January 09, 2015, 09:35:36 AM
You seem to have fallen into that classic trap of trying to apply real world logic and physics to game logic and physics, OP. Zerkuran is not helping this.
I only brought up real world stuff in response to Zerkuran.
Typically I try to avoid the subject because:
Quote from: Goo Poni on January 09, 2015, 09:35:36 AM
Real world science is irrelevant.
For the most part, but not entirely.
Depends on the game, and Rimworld does seem to want to try to link itself to realism in some small degree.
In this case realism is important so far as immersion and in game consistency is concerned.
Basically its a colony survival game that follows certain recognizable rules.
Unlike Don't Starve, which is an individual survival game that follows a made up set of rules.
Thing is... Don't Starve is far more 'real' to me, because it is consistent and immersive in how it follows those rule sets.
Quote from: Darth Fool on January 09, 2015, 11:17:09 AM
In real life, kevlar will stop some bullets, but it will not stop a club. Heck, Kevlar will not stop knives. It should be no surprise that different armor types will effect attacks from different weapons differently.
When did I claim Kevlar could stop a club?!
No shit it won't stop knives, its basically synthetic cloth.
The point was that bullets are powerful and can penetrate metal, and it requires obscene thickness or
special tech to stop them.
It was a specific argument to a specific point.
Quote from: juanitierno on January 09, 2015, 01:08:06 PM
Similarly, a non-dampened ironman suit hit by a truck, would be like Tony being hit by an armor-shaped truck.
The mass of a stone club is not equal to the mass of a truck.
The mass needs to manageable so the person using it can actually wield it
Why is everyone acting like I don't want stone clubs to do damage?!
I understand they are heavy. I get they hit hard.
Im saying, based off what else power armor can take, and its described tech level, it should be able to take most of it.
Quote from: juanitierno on January 09, 2015, 01:08:06 PM
I think a large stone club actually hits harder than a bullet. ...
I don't. Show me a video of a stone club penetrating 1/2 in. thick steel plate.
Then I will believe you.
Quote from: juanitierno on January 09, 2015, 01:08:06 PM
(you are essentially catching another bullet with your bare hand, its just this second bullet is larger and has a grip). Now imagine being hit in the hand with a large stone club :)
Why would I imagine that? The argument is against a power armored individual, not a bare hand.
I think the issue has less to do with realism and more to do with game balance. If clubs did little damage to power armor, then late game raids from tribals would be easy and meaningless. Considering the player can get a whole army of power armor clad warriors and you can make your enemies only the tribal factions, it would throw late game warfare completely out of whack if their primary wweapons were not a threat to you.
Quote from: A_Soft_Machine_Man on January 09, 2015, 02:12:10 PM
I'm basically wondering if there's any good "anti-sniper" tactics beyond just arming up colonists with M24s and Lee Enfields and hoping for the best. I've tried rushing them down with shotgunners/melee specialists after dispatching their friends, but tend to take high casualties just due to how accurate their fire is. Worse, when I just set up countersnipers I still take extreme casualties, with one or more getting maimed while their return fire either misses outright, or damages them in a way that doesn't impede their accuracy.
Two good approaches: a)sneak in close and hit in face, and b)pop out of cover to distract and countersnipe without return fire
a)Against snipers, using line of sight-breaking cover is a great way to get up close and shoot them in the face. Whenever an M-24 user's line of sight/fire is broken he has to "warmup," or re-aim and reload, for around 4.3 seconds. Use that to minimize incoming fire, or eliminate it completely, while you get in close.
b) http://i.imgur.com/gWFU0lU.jpg
Pop decoy colonists out of hard cover and let the enemy aim at them. Return them to cover before fired on. While the enemy is aiming at the closest target, the decoys, have your own snipers aim at theirs so they can get at least one shot off without return fire. Click intensive but worth it if you don't have much cover to gapclose for melee with.
Quote from: MikhailBoho on January 09, 2015, 06:23:59 PM
I think the issue has less to do with realism and more to do with game balance. If clubs did little damage to power armor, then late game raids from tribals would be easy and meaningless. Considering the player can get a whole army of power armor clad warriors and you can make your enemies only the tribal factions, it would throw late game warfare completely out of whack if their primary wweapons were not a threat to you.
Well sure if they only ever had stone weapons.
But the fact you get raided is pretty good evidence that these towns are not in a vacuum.
Just give late game tribals better weapons.
Steel clubs are something they could conceivably learn to make. (mid game)
And Plasteel is something they could conceivably trade for and craft into clubs. (late game)
For the last time, clubs vs power armor is
not what I have issue with.
It is
stone clubs vs power armor.
Thats why I asked if it is just a balance issue not gotten to yet.
Because frankly the current setup is
not balanced. Its either lazy or incomplete.
And I know Tynan is
not lazy. A simple look at the change log shows that much.
Yep, it's an alpha for sure!
Quote from: REMworlder on January 09, 2015, 07:47:51 PM
Two good approaches: a)sneak in close and hit in face, and b)pop out of cover to distract and countersnipe without return fire
a)Against snipers, using line of sight-breaking cover is a great way to get up close and shoot them in the face. Whenever an M-24 user's line of sight/fire is broken he has to "warmup," or re-aim and reload, for around 4.3 seconds. Use that to minimize incoming fire, or eliminate it completely, while you get in close.
b) http://i.imgur.com/gWFU0lU.jpg
Pop decoy colonists out of hard cover and let the enemy aim at them. Return them to cover before fired on. While the enemy is aiming at the closest target, the decoys, have your own snipers aim at theirs so they can get at least one shot off without return fire. Click intensive but worth it if you don't have much cover to gapclose for melee with.
Okay, I see what you mean and I gave it a try. The sight-breaking (what I often do to cheese scythers) worked well against one or two pirate snipers, but soon lost its usefulness when I was confronted with 5+ snipers per raid/siege. Ultimately, I think my problems stem from the sheer quantity of snipers and the volume of fire they put out, as I can sight break one or two but then lose my sight-breaker to the remaining snipers.
I do appreciate the tips, though. Made the early game much more palatable.
still doesnt alleviate the problem with skills not matching abilites in shooting.
ive had a guy in perfect condition with a 20/20 shooting who can only hit about 1 of every 5 shots against a TORTISE 2 grid blocks away.
Quote from: darkrage000 on January 11, 2015, 10:25:13 AM
still doesnt alleviate the problem with skills not matching abilites in shooting.
ive had a guy in perfect condition with a 20/20 shooting who can only hit about 1 of every 5 shots against a TORTISE 2 grid blocks away.
When you go to fire at an opponent, hover over the target and it'll pop-up with the reasons for the calculated hit chance. Not saying its perfect. But its all a mix of distance, cover, target size, weapon accuracy, Weapon health, Sight and if the target is prone or not.
Also; Some weapons (snipers) actually have terrible accuracy at short/touch ranges.