Messages

1. Deconstructing someone's bed is your scenario, so using it against me is very pointless. It's nothing I'd say is something that shouldn't trigger the effect. I directly said I could see it applying for loud and other disruptive things occurring, less so for someone simply walking by.

2. Your provided "lot of research" was 2 or 3 links. I'm talking about how it should, in my opinion, function in a game. Perfectly mimicking reality is unnecessary so fixating on real life analogues isn't the end all be all of a fictional setting.

3. I admitted that it's been reported before and stated it was going remain as is. Trying to use this against me is pointless.

4. Yes. Anesthesia does take time to wear off. No one is forgetting such a simple fact. But it's not due to a healing process. There is no actual injury on the person after successful surgery.

5. Your Don Quixote insult does not apply here. I already stated it's not a big deal and is mostly just about opinions. That renders your analogy baseless.

6. I have repeatedly discussed your individual points, you do not give me the same courtesy. You simply exaggerate and reduce my entire posts to simple basic one off responses. This is obviously going nowhere but down, so I'm done here.

[what you *remember* doesn't mean a thing]

Once again, the current mechanism directly simulates actual real-life results rather well, in this case.  There's only so granular the sim can/will get, folks.

Have you been under general anesthesia?  It's nothing like normal sleep or disturbed sleep.  To me it felt more like a short time skip.

Also, "simulates real life decently" is not this game's MO.

Once again, what you *remember* doesn't mean a thing.  Any repercussions still exist, whether or not you are aware of them, hence my example of throwing a post-op patient down the stairs; whether or not they remember it happening, they WILL still retain any injuries.  "Disturbed sleep" can (and does) encompass MANY different possible events, many of which you won't be consciously aware of, even if they more or less wake you up at the time.  Go on, try to aver you remember everything when you're half-wakened by someone in the room with you; you're gonna have to try very hard, though, because I just don't buy it, especially when you're recovering from general anesthesia.

There's only so granular the sim can or will be; you're basically quibbling over a label, nothing more.  Anesthetized sleep IS still "sleep", as well, your problems with that fact aside.  Nor do your anecdotal observations negate actual statistical results.  Did you or BoogieMan bother following any of those links?  And furthermore, if you think this game isn't a sim (of "real life" in a sci fi setting) what, exactly, do you think it is?

The current mechanism, whether by accident or design, simulates actual statistical outcomes of disturbing post-op patients.  What, exactly, is the problem with that?

And how are you surprised, BoogieMan, that research on post-op care exists o.O'?  If you HAD read those links, you wouldn't be so gobsmacked, that simple.  No, you don't have to intentionally inflict disturbances on patients, to document the statistically probable effects if disturbance happens.  If you get off yer duff and do some research, you'll find many more results — it's somewhat of a pain, because white paper titles are often worded oddly, but the results are there — or you could ask a doctor, which (again) I DID; luckily, I have a tolerant family practicioner =).

It doesn't matter what you doubt; I trust MDs, both in reference and in person, over your opinion.

You can't just hand wave it away as you are, honestly, neither side can say with 100% how it should function in game. We can voice our opinion, but none of us understand it to such a degree that we can definitively say it should be done X way as if it were fact. To do so would be incredibly reductive. It's a complicated issue with many factors to consider. Effectiveness of anesthesia and rest post-op is influenced by many things, including the type of anesthesia used, other types of medication, patient specific issues such as narcolepsy, errors made by the anesthesiologist, types of procedure and so on.

I mentioned your links more than once. And I did read them, the fact I said I doubt much research has been done because it can only be done passively, which while more ethical are undoubtedly going to be less informative than deliberate studies. To over sensationalize that as being "gobsmacked" is very silly. Also, one or two papers isn't scientifically definitive on their own. I don't know how many peer reviews those studies have had. Give me a study that used 1000 people who were generally anesthetized, half who were in very quiet and isolated individual rooms, and half that were in common wards with noise. Then you can hand force your opinion as fact.

Here are some things to consider:

-Those links were studies on *post operative* rest. The type of anesthesia used and other drugs were key factors to consider.

-There are no post operative rest periods in Rimworld whatsoever. If someone is put under and *any* procedure is completed on them, so long as no failures are made,  the moment the anesthesia wears off up they go about their business. No post operative rest.

-There is only rest from injuries in Rimworld. No injuries (regardless of severity) even require anesthesia to treat in the first place. Health procedures like excising carcinoma do, but again, no post operative rest is required.

-Even basic medicine in Rimworld is vastly superior to real life medicine.

-Rimworld doctors are faster and better than real world doctors.

-Rimworld anesthesia does not affect sight or hearing at all. Only talking, manipulation, and eating. I'm not sure if those could be considered reasonable with just 10% consciousness. But it gets the job done so how much that matters is probably just personal opinion.

-In Rimworld anesthesia is no different than regular sleep other than you can't function on your own until it wears off. In real life, they are not the same. Extended or repeated anesthesia in shorter periods of time can cause problems due to lack of REM sleep as I mentioned previously.

-In Rimworld they can only be disturbed from sleep 4 times (even right in a row as if they immediately fell back asleep) and then become impervious to it until the mood debuffs wear off 12 hours later.


In the end, it's really not a big deal either way. Just depends on your opinion if you like it or not. The range someone seems to be able to be disturbed by people walking by is about 5 tiles so you can attempt to minimize it by keeping the beds farther off the path of anyone coming into the room. Banning pets is probably a good idea too, for both cleanliness and quiet.

(great info snipped)

Thanks for this, I learned something.

On a slightly different topic, there's an impressive hospital bonus? This is the first I've heard of such a thing.

As far as I know there is for Bedrooms, Rec rooms, Dining Rooms, and Hospitals. If you're using the Hospitality mod, then Guest Rooms as well. I believe it goes up to "Extremely Impressive" for the best bonus.

Once again, the current mechanism directly simulates actual real-life results rather well, in this case.  There's only so granular the sim can/will get, folks.

You state that as a fact, when I don't really think you should. I doubt a really definitive amount of research has been done on it because deliberately negatively affecting a patients recovery would be unethical. Also, I read the links you posted and commented on the result but you seemed to have ignored that.

Even if somehow people who are anesthetized were disturbed by someone simply walking by, it's not something they would actually be aware of. If it somehow negatively affects recuperation, again, they wouldn't be aware of it.

Source: Being with 3 people who came out of anesthesia related procedures and surgeries and talking about it with them. They were aware of nothing. Sometimes not even the first time or two they awoke after it was wearing off. Nurses came in many times to check up on them, and family members came and went. They were usually still tired because being anesthetized isn't like actual sleep, due to lack of REM sleep. But they didn't wake up in bad moods from all the disturbed sleep...

Yes obviously they would still get injured. It doesn't make them invulnerable..

From what I got from those, the results were from sleep periods after the procedures and the effect of pain medications on restfulness. As in sleeping during recovery after anesthesia has worn off.

I could see it happening on occasion with periodic bouts of some awareness but that would seem to be the exception, and not the rule. Or more in line with existing mechanics, was only triggered by actual work going on the room, such as mining or other loud disturbing actions. Not someone simply walking through an autodoor across the room.

If it was supposed to encourage the players to more carefully design the hospitals, it would make more sense for the effects to focused on normally sleeping patients, and not those medically unconscious. But people who are just sleeping usually end up less affected by disturbed sleep because they are simply not there as long, even though there is no doubt that they would be more affected by sleep interruption.

In general the overall mechanic should be partially redesigned IMO. Compared to current effects - less harsh on anesthetized and more harsh on regular sleepers. Getting woken up multiple times can be really aggravating.

I used to play like that for the longest time.

However I got tired of providing for terrible colonists who didn't contribute much at all. Some are so bad that they actually reduce the overall colony efficiency. Now I'm still fairly lax, but I'll no longer take anyone unless I'm really hurting for manpower.

I meant that as agreeing that individual hospital rooms would be nice if the game would reward it with something other than just reduced disturbed rests. That's the only thing it has going for it, unfortunately. All for extra resources, labor, and more space required. Not a good trade.

For whatever reason it's been stated as working as intended even though it seems that is completely nonsensical.

How you can disturb someone who anesthetized to such a degree you can perform surgery on them? You could throw them down stairs and they wouldn't know until they woke up.

It's always been something that has befuddled me.

Perhaps encouraging the creation of separate hospital rooms, rather than a single large room for anything from surgeries to flu treatment?

Although if that's the case, a better solution would be to make diseases infectious...so you'd want to keep the plague victims separate from the bleeding people separate from the folks awaiting Bionic limbs..

Except that makes it harder to get the impressive hospital bonus and makes you wonder why you can link multiple medical beds to a single vitals monitor, if they are all immediately adjacent to each other anyway.

If we could slate what medical beds are used for it would help. You could make a ward for people who are going to undergo surgery or otherwise have extended stays, and another for routine visits so you don't have to micromanage it. Would also help keep the people who are seeking medical attention for bruises from taking the good medical beds instead of basic beds in the hospital.

Here is most of my current one, minus some storerooms and a few bedrooms and some power utilities. Going to stop using the mud moat since it seems a bit OP.

[attachment deleted by admin: too old]

I tried the anesthetize route, but it required constant upkeep and wouldn't work if I reduced the colonist to herbal meds. Seems only actual medicine works, even though you can anesthetize with herbal meds for surgeries..

Maybe with all the different penalties consciousness was reduced too much, especially if they took drugs. What did the actual death message say?

I didn't think separate prison cells worked? I tried that, I believe in A17. When a prison break was triggered all prisoners joined in. Even ones that were in a different holding area. Since it didn't worked I went back to one big holding room. It seemed easier to deal with them while they were clumped up trying to go down a single tile wide hallway. A couple solid melee fighters down at the end can 3 v 1 them quite effectively.

Guess I'll make a solitary medical prison room to keep them in and see how that goes. At least they'll be alone.

So basically the options are to deal with it, imprison them, or get rid of them. I was hoping I missed another solution but maybe not. Oh well, thanks for the feedback.

I'm getting very frustrated trying to cure some colonists of their addictions. They can waltz right through forbidden doors and walk outside of their allowed area. For some that's all it takes along with time. Others will repeatedly violate these restrictions go use drugs. Smokeleaf is a decent part of my economy so simply not having any isn't very feasible, and having otherwise valuable pawns move around super slow is troublesome. I had one that was working off two addictions and moved so slow that by the time she ate breakfast and did one or maybe two local tasks it was time for bed and she was hungry by the time she made it back to bed.

Imprisoning them is the only other thing I can think of. But dealing with them going berserk, causing prison escapes, and assaulting other prisoners sounds like trading one headache for another. I'm wondering if there is another solution I may have overlooked besides selling them or getting them killed which seems extreme.

I've tried:
Locking the door
Restricting their access to a specific area
Keeping their mood up with constant joy activities
Cryptosleep caskets

Only restricting access has occasionally helped and I believe chance was mostly the cause of that.

We need some security doors that only certain people have access to open.

Every Mod in the Mod Folder has an effect on the launch time of Rimworld.

Not only active ones.

Wow, I didn't know that. Strange. Going to have to do some house cleaning.

Thank you.

I recently built a hot biome (125f average I believe) mountain colony where there were three locations each with 4 cooling units that fed into a central AC tunnel which then spread it out around to all the rooms though vents. I kept wall two tiles thick in all places. When the tunnels were completed I sealed them off so no one would path through them. It actually worked out quite well, other than it took a good bit more planning to make the layout of the AC tunnel contiguous.

It even helped once or twice with hives that popped up in bedrooms. Deconstructed the vents and lured the bugs into a 1 tile wide tunnel for each killboxing.

For now though, I'm using this mod for cooling. It's pretty nifty. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=973091113

Looks interesting to me.

Maybe little kamikaze bots that look for turrets and power generators and explodes with an EMP burst that disables them for a time.