Messages

Can i summarize?

I say that i find your comparision of my way of argumentation with that of antisemites inappropriate.

Your response is that i try to compare you with hitler, which doesn't even make sense. (your immediate response isn't that this wasn't your intention).

So i ask you about your intention and afterwards you threaten me by calling the mods (what do you want to tell them, that i thought it was inappropriate and out of context of you to compare my argumentation with that of antisemites?)

I keep asking you for your intention and necessary of that comparision and you keep overeacting even more.

Wouldn't it be sufficient to stop when I told you I've meant no such thing?

Ok, if so, let's stop that.

I've compared your reasoning based on assumptions with typical way of reasoning of most conspiracy theories.

Right, why not just say that my way of argumenting is comparable to that of conspiracy theorists? Wouldn't that have been sufficient?

And seriously, pulling a Hitler card is pretty sickening ... and pretending to be a victim

I fully agree.

Ok, i got a question then.

Why compare my way of argumentation just with that of antisemits instead of just pointing out a logical fallacy?

Do you mean you want to compare me to Hitler in response? Or anything that contains word "jew" in it is nazi by nature? Because this has nothing to do with my statement. Please, read it again.

"to a view that would be held by Adolf Hitler or the Nazi Party."

That jews rule the world was a major claim by hitler and his party. They aren't the only antisemites in the world, but the first you think of.

I don't see the logic in assuming that i somehow compare you with hitler? You accuse me of "Reductio ad Hitlerum" because i accused you of it? What?

I just wanted to say that, in my opinion, it was inappropriate and unnecessary of you to bring antisemitism up in a discussion about realism of a fictional videogame.

link to the Wikpedia article of Reductio ad Hitlerum

According to Strauss, Reductio ad Hitlerum is a form of ad hominem or ad misericordiam, a fallacy of irrelevance, in which a conclusion is suggested based solely on something's or someone's origin rather than its current meaning. The suggested rationale is one of guilt by association. Its name is a variation on the term reductio ad absurdum.

Reductio ad Hitlerum is sometimes called "playing the Nazi card."[2] According to its critics and proponents, it is a tactic often used to derail arguments, because such comparisons tend to distract and anger the opponent.[2]

[totally]

You mean assumptions like theres rarely more then one habitable planet per solar system? Yea, thats totally far stretched... -__-

It's like arguing with someone who thinks jews rule the world - you cannot disprove it, so he'll keep arguing it must be true.

My response to that is a Wikipedia Quote:

According to Strauss, the Reductio ad Hitlerum is an informal fallacy that consists of trying to refute an opponent's view by comparing it to a view that would be held by Adolf Hitler or the Nazi Party.

Again, technology isn't linear. It's entirely possible that some human civilization exists a billion lightyears from here that figured out how to get into orbit without ever creating gunpowder.

Right, but i know its incredibly far stretched for me to say that in a hostile universe like rimworld you would assume that advancing in weaponry or defenses is a high priority.

And because of the FACT that our colonists can easily build some amazing communication and radar devices right away and there is interstellar travel i kinda question how isolated they can be that they never heard of more advanced weaponry then bows and pistols.

And its a fact that there are more advanced weaponry out there in the universe of rimworld.

Its quite amazing that they managed to be so isolated and at the one side so highly advanced in any form of technology (space travel, electronics, communication, mining, super fast building/engineering ...) and at the other side so low tech in something that should be something of high priority for them.

That's not impossible, but Yes, I'm the one who's assumptions are a bit far stretched, right?

We also have a lot of people today who can use the internet but can't run a telegraph line. We have people who can fly drones but couldn't operate a steamboat. Just because it's more high tech doesn't mean that it's harder to learn to use.

That so much. And other points too.

I know that assuming that an engineer with knowledge in weaponry (enough to build an highly advanced automatic turret) can use his skills and knowledge to tinker weapons is incredibly far stretched. (really?! -__- )

THATS IMPOSSIBLE! He would need a completely different set of skills for doing this. Its totally comparable to how someone who can use the Internet can't use a telegraph.

Its so far stretched for me that en engineer with knowledge of electronics, physics, weapons etc. can somehow use that knowledge to build new things, like improvised weapons and traps. Right.

Next you will tell me that they haven't researched wheels yet in the Rimworld universe, thus they won't be able to build armored vehicles. Because that Assumption is not even slightly far stretched.

Right, but our colonists are able to fly a spaceship and can build complicated high tech buildings in a few hours.

Having planets that are stuck in the middle- or industrial age sounds plausible for me. People being able to build and fly spacecrafts, communication devices and automatic turrets being stuck with weapons from the wild west era is what bothers me. If they can build an automatic turret with a highly advanced neuronal network as artificial intelligence, that also must have some highly advanced sensors(!) then building a machine gun, tank or even a gunship shouldn't be much of a problem for them.

Simply by building these turrets they prove that they are capable of building automatic weapons by themselves. They also have the technology for remote triggered bombs. It should be possible to use that knowledge for something superior then a pistol or shotgun. (its really not a big step). How hard could it be to tinker an artillery or mortar if they can build these turrets and bombs?



And it still sounds ridiculous to me to fly from solar system to solar system in a highly advanced spaceship to buy pistols.

Again, your whole argument is based on in-game state of the matters, which is just poor. Not to mention, it is invalid - you analyze the situation where slavers do NOT come down to enslave everyone when you trade with them. If they did - would you be selling them that food?

They could simply loot our food and other valuables afterwards.

I highly doubt that prices of food and weapons will change much, as it would drastically change the balance of the game. - You can produce an unlimited amount of food, making it more valuable then thousand year old weapons would completely destroy the balance.

There is no strong central governmnet, it mention nothing about no form of government at all. Actually it could even suggest that there is some sort of weak central government, or a theoretic one - like core worlds.

Good point.

So your whole point is made only because of early alpha's graphical representation, that is there because that animation was already there? It does not explain how they pick cargo up from the planet. It can very well be a placeholder or a replacement, because in early stage anything more complicated was not possible.

Couldn't anything, a shuttle or some kind of torpedo with high accuracy, be abused as an weapon? (or at least travel a bomb or remote controlled attack drone etc...)

All you need to do is get something inside the base that kills or disables the colonists. At least most of them. (there aren't many to begin with)

Again, assumptions. What if there is another planet - or five - in that solar system? Now with a better assumption, that you can base something off actually - why trade between stars if travel takes decades? Wouldn't it be a better thing to assume in-system trade? Something, I believe, Tynan mentioned?

Right. But then one of this planets in the system would most likely be higher advanced then the current earth. At least advanced enough to maintain constant upkeep of multiple spacecrafts.

Also, earth like planets aren't common. So either they are in possession of space stations or able to colonize/terraform planets that are hostile to life. (technology far, far beyond industrial tech)

Even if you assume that there is a system with multiple earth like planets (in the same solar system? sounds impossible to me because of the individual distance to the sun of each planet ), even then traveling from Planet to planet with a high tech spacecraft to sell weapons of the last millennial seems ridiculous to me.

It can be cryo pods, it can be recycling of matter, it can be anything.

Yes, but all of these technology's would be beyond industrial tech.

You make a lot of assumptions, and no argumentation. You can't argue with someone who presents their assumptions as arguments - please, keep that in mind.

Yes, i assume that rimworld is based on the real world. Don't forget how the argumentation started. The argumentation started with the assumption that smart robots shouldn't be included in the game because that would be unrealistic. Which already implies that rimworld is based on real world.

And you counter my assumptions with assumptions of yourself. (like multiple habitable planets in a single solar system).

As we talk about a piece of fiction, theoretical, everything strange or any logical gap could be explained with "its magic" as there is nothing that could stop tynan from including magic in rimworld. He is the god of this world. If we don't assume that rimworld is more or less based on real world (most fiction is at least loosely based on reality and physics etc.), any discussion about story or realism becomes absurd. I will stop here before this becomes another wall of text.

what gunships have to do with Native Americans (they weren't around, right?)

you tell me, you brought native americans up, not me.

You said they had succes with low tech, i said that we had lesser technology at that point too.

How do you know how slavery works (it can very well be a legal trade scenario)

Here is some background story about rimworld:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pIZyKif0bFbBWten4drrm7kfSSfvBoJPgG9-ywfN8j8/pub

So, there is basically no form of government in our rimworlds.

how traders pick up cargo (a shuttle (!) completely negates your argument)

Buy something and you see this capsules slowly landing close to your beacon and fading to invisibility. Whatever that is could be used as a weapon.

what would slavers eat if they can't trade

They value a pistol more then food if you sell it to them, that makes me believe that they aren't starving. And you can buy their food too, for low price.

Ackording to the background story there is no faster then light travel. Traveling between stars would take YEARS.

Traveling for such a long time to buy and sell pistols sounds unprofitable to me....

Also, i guess you would most likely make sure  that you have enough food before you start a multiple years long journey. Or a self sustaining ship (otherwise, how do they have enough oxygen for years?)

A) Native Americans used gunpowder based weaponry with much success.

But not against gunships or remote controlled military drones, right? And not just 3 or 15 of them.

B) Games are not made to be realistic, because they would be boring.

That was actually one of my arguments. Well, you haven't read it.

D) A medium sized company can easily buy a big car or even a boat or a plane, but getting a armed sloop of war or even an outdated rocket launcher is not so easy of an deal, not to mention getting armed and fight-capable armored vehicle.

They still should be able to get something better then the last millennial.

We are talking about slave traders and weapon dealers without morals and its said that for most planets the government failed.

Like, they already have some kind of torpedos to throw their trading items and slaves safely to the surface of a planet with a very high accuracy, right?

Why not fire triggered (gas-) bombs with these torpedos?

All in all, your reasoning is - ironically, seeing how you keep saying "unrealistic" - rather shallow and unrealistic ^^'

Im argumenting against the fact that smart robots would be unrealistic in the game.

Saying that games are not meant to be realistic is an counter argument against that, and its a argument i used myself.

i never said that rimworld has to be realistic, in my first posts i just said that robots wouldn't actually be unrealistic, in my last post i stated that this game has already a lot of unrealistic (anachronistic) content.

Actually no, the conversation did not end when i said that, in fact it became a great productive conversation about DRONES. Then tynan chimed in and said yes they will be in game. Like i said you should have read after that.

But the conversation about whether or not its realistic stopped. Afterwards started a new conversation.

One of the disadvantages of a bulletin board is that posts are sorted in chronological order instead of their thematic, but i can't change that.

Its still a valid discussion under the main topic of this thread.

actually read this please.
You obviously didn't.

I did, i can't see why you'd think otherwise.

But it seems like you never questioned what you read.

but many civilizations OF HUMANS. Don't have the tech for space travel. The civilization on earth has fallen, thousands of years ago.

Guess why i said that everyone who is VISITING us has the technology of space travel and, more important, our first three colonists do! I never said everyone has, just the people visiting us and our three starting colonists.

Except all these people visiting us lived their whole life on the planet we stranded on. (However, there are event's about people crashlanding on our rimworld and im sure that raiders will attack with energy weapons at some point.)

Thee is a reason the people on OUR planet in game are still condemmed to guns and not energy rifles (energy rifles are extremely rare and hard to come by).

I say its simply because of gameplay and style (like steampunk, its a cool but unrealistic mix of modern and middle age).

Realistically it doesn't make much sense in my opinion.

People that can travel in space definitely wouldn't rely on middle age weapons.

I mean, honestly, come on.

A space ship flying trough space, to a rimworld far away from civilization, to sell you gunpowder weapons of the last millennium?! Does this sound like an economic business model for you? They have higher costs for fuel then what these primitives could offer you. If these ships can't travel faster then light, how much profit will you make by traveling for some hundred of years to sell freaking gunpowder weapons?!

Even sending these weapons via some kind of torpedos to a definite location on a rimworld (making sure that they don't get destroyed by entering atmosphere or landing impact!!!!) is more expensive then anything a primitive colony could offer these weapon dealers. (and, again, the technology for doing so is more advanced then anything we have today.)

And what do we sell these gun dealers? Pistols and selfmade nutrient paste... Wow, thats definitely a good deal for them! They own high tech of the next millennial and trade pistols with pistols... Also I guess that if they are capable of traveling for hundred of years they made sure that they won't suffer by starvation at any point, and they give you far more for pistols then for nutrient paste, so it's not like they desperately need our nutrient paste.

If we had anything useful to offer them, why shouldn't these slave traders simply jump down to our colony and kill us all with some advanced weapons and then take whatever they need? Or at least try to threaten and gouge us?

You know, even a modern helicopter gunship from our current realworld could easily conquer and destroy our little colony without damaging the stockpiles.That kind of helicopter that has mounted multiple rockets with a range of multiple kilometers could easily deal with our turrets. Or some remote controlled attack drones the us uses in 2014.

Or how about gas attacks? Or Radiation? Everything could be looted afterwards. If the colonists have to rely on pistols, it shouldn't be much of a problem to kill them and take whatever these primitives could offer you. The colonists are usually armed with nothing more then a handful of pistols when the first slave or weapon trader arrives.

It simply doesn't make sense, if you managed to own a spacecraft more advanced then anything we could build in the next hundred of years, it shouldn't be much of a problem to gather a gunship or attack drones from 2014.

If there are people building these spacecrafts, it shouldn't be much of a problem for these people to build some weapons from 2014. Not just rifles but bombs, gunships, atomic weapons, lethal gas bombs ....

Flying light years (!) trough space to sell gunpowder weapons is ridiculous. But its fun Gameplay wise. Having Energy rifles that could shoot over the complete map without missing would suck and no one would want that, no matter if it is realistic.

Edit:

These places tend to hover around the industrial level of technology or lower.

Yea, these automatic turrets are quite beyond industrial technology, so is the mining equipment of our colonists. And the spaceship they crashlanded with.

Or the communication technology to contact spaceships from far away. Its not a satellite, its something they built in the desert. In a single day. They didn't even needed the research lab for it. Its not even big. And doesn't need that much energy - 200 watt. 50 watt more then a standing lamp.

Its never told how far away these trading ships are, but i believe that they don't orbit the rimworld - planet and just fly somewhat nearby. Except they really want to trade pistols with primitives or there is indeed some advanced city on our planet that would justify to spent fuel and time to get into orbit and leave it afterwards...

They can build a communication device for space (that also detects spacecrafts) that doesn't need much more energy then a lamp and is quite small, on a desert.

The only thing that is industrial tech are the weapons and some buildings like solar panels, beds and lamps.

Oh, and the doors don't look like industrial tech either.

And i'm quite sure that the drones we'll built at some point in the game will most likely be equipped with industrial tech weapons too, no matter if this would be realistic .

DFPLAYER read the whole conversation before replying to me.
Its all been cleared up already.

I did. It stopped when you said that you think its gamebreaking and unrealistic, and this is your opinion and thats it.

I say its not even slightly unrealistic, its something we will do in the next 50 years, maybe in the next 100 years. (imho thats a modest estimate)

Tynan chimed in and said:

Yes, im not arguing if they should be part of the game, but if it were realistic.

Just because something is realistic or unrealistic doesn't mean its fun or not gameplay wise.

please delete your post so that people realize the argument has been over for days.

No, the topic of this thread is "automated units", discussing if it is realistic that colonists are cappable of building them is a valid discussion under this topic. Its not Off-Topic.

That Tynan wants to include them in the game or that you don't want to defend your opinion anymore doesn't change that.

If you don't want to discuss this anymore, thats fine. This Forum is public and other who read this may also think that its unrealistic or want to discuss this, i just wanted to state that we will probably be capable of buildings such robots loooong before we will be able to trade in space.

Also note that faster then light travel and giant trade fleets don't exist in the rim verse.

Still, a space trading ship and space combat is something that is far away.

You can't trade in space if there aren't enough people in space to trade with.

Ingame we are stranded in a rimworld, still there are many travelers, raiders and space ships coming by. It seems like a huge part of humans does already live outside of earth. Actually, i believe that by colonizing the galactic core, there are more people living outside one earth then on earth. (there are multiple space ships flying by in a single year, space is freaking huge and we live on the rim, that wouldn't happen if there weren't quite a lot of trading ships...)

Currently, its a huge success to send a probe to mars!

Its not just sending people into space, but to the core of  the galaxy, and so many that they are independent and have a running economy, colonizing other planets.

These people are there for multiple generations of human life, especially if we can't fly faster then light.

An AI that is slightly smarter then our current AIs in reallife is nothing against that.

And note that due to the "Gulf between stars"
So some haven't even reached OUR tech level.

We live in a rim world of the galactic core, beside of slaves, everyone who visits us does at least have the technology to travel in space. For a long distance.

Maybe they just captured a ship, but they are versed enough to fly it and keep it in a good state.

And so do our first three colonists if at least on of them was flying or even owning the spacecraft that crashed. Or had any job on the spacecraft.

So, everyone who voluntary visits us is in possession of technology far beyond ours. (a space ship. A space ship thats capable to provide enough food, room and oxygen to fly to the rim of the galactic core.)

[basic]

You think a robot would be easier to build then a solar panel and a food dispenser?

The AI and hardware required to build a robot is beyond that of a food dispenser that simply squashes things and dispenses the squashed stuff (which i bet is what the "nutrient paste" dispenser does.. It is also beyond the bits of silicone needed to make a solar panel. And the AI is beyond that of an auto turret.

It depends on the robot.

A cleaning robot like we already have in real life (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6EsI4BFHFk) would be pretty simple.

I mean, honestly, I can build something like that with lego. (except for the vacuum part) .

I actually built more advanced robots then that in lego.

Because it is alot more then just a "walking autoturret"

How?

Our current ingame turrets are already capable to differ between friend and enemies.

Then why is it that modern humanity has turrets that can acquire targets, but not robots that run around shooting and acquiring targets?

You need to be able to path find in real space. This can be done, requires years upon years upon years of research, not to mention allowing them to have orders to stay around and patrol.Avoiding friendly fire.

We already have prototypes of automatic cars driving in the real world, in real streets with other cars. They are able to avoid deers and other obstacles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J17Qgc4a8xY

What do you guess will be possible in another 10 years?

It will take more then 10 years till we are able to colonize space, what do you guess we will be capable of by then?

Rimworld plays in a future were we are already trading in space! So, in a future were we already have colonized space and have space trading fleets.

We are currently building driverless cars, there's a fair chance that we live long enough to see the automation of traffic in the real world, but we definitely wont live long enough to see space trading, just to give an small vision of how advanced robotics will probably be in the era of rimworld.

The turrets they build in rimworld aren't just able to shoot at someone they see, they're also perfectly able to differ between friends and enemies and aim properly. That is amazing, you already need some highly advanced artificial intelligence to do that. You know, we have face detection for cameras and they tend to make mistakes, sometimes not detecting a face or detecting one where there isn't one. But the AI of the turrets? They detect people, even in the dark, and they can differ them, can even detect if they are a threat! And they never make a single mistake.

Not even that, they are even capable of finding out when an enemy is unable to fight! They can freaking differ between enemies standing still and an enemy that passed out by pain or blood loss, thats something that not even humans are able to do. (not in the middle of a fight and meters away)

And they didn't made this in a laboratory, they made it in the desert! In a single day!!! A single person! What could two of them build together in a week?



If you are still worried about path finding, we could make it so that robots will only be able to move in flat terrain / metal underground, in that case they don't have to deal with bypassing plants or bigger stones.

Making a robot on wheels move on a flat surface and avoid colliding into walls is pretty easy (honestly, you can do that with a lego robot kit and some basic programming...)

As turrets are already capable of aiming at enemies, all you need to do is to let them drive into the direction it aims, thats pretty easy too.

Making them seek cover or others advanced strategies is a whole other story. (i personally believe that by the time we do space trading AI will be smart enough to do so)

Its more complicated in real life scenarios, for example a robot shouldn't hurt civilians and enemies might hide in houses or behind civilians etc. and no Ai is currently smart enough to deal with that. But such things are irrelevant in rimworld.

Also, Tynan could make robotos purposely dumb or make mistakes, or falling over at times...

Edit:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkrzdj9tA2I

humanoid robots playing football. Take note that these are basically toys made for fun. Yes, they are clumsy and slow, but in the next 20 years...?


Take a look at this one:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1czBcnX1Ww

This one is not a toy, its a 4 legged robot capable to move on ice, snow and debris, run uphills etc.

Again, this is what we have today. Actually, that video is 6 years old, its what we had 6 years ago. Rimworld takes place in far future.

This isn't anything new, google has been fucking up everything behind closed doors for years, their privacy regulations are basically them tracking you to sell info to advertisers. I don't use google search.

I tried several search engines like duckduckgo, but i didn't really liked them as i rarely found what i wanted. In the end i used google again.

they'd keep the cross, but put a "g" before it.

I feel like Im the only one who got this joke

gross?

DwarfCorp was a game funded on Kickstarter that also made it through Steam's Greenlight process. You manage a colony of capitalist dwarves sent by hot air balloon to a far away land.

DwarfCorp looks nice.

how is the gameplay, is it more complex then gnomoria?

I really disliked gnomoria because it was way to simple, for example lacking any form of physics.

heres an older and completely finished one:
Space Colony

Space Colony is a nice game, really liked it back then.

Its not a sandbox like game but instead you do missions.

If graphics don't matter I can suggest another old game:

Wiggles.

Its 3d but 3d ages way faster then 2d.

Heres a screenshot:



However, if you want to play the most complex colony game in the world i really recommend dwarf fortress with a graphics pack. The beginning is hard because most of the time you have to use your keyboard but if you are into games like the above its very rewarding! After a few months of playing a building/sandbox game i usually know almost everything about it, have seen everything possible in that game. You can still keep playing these games afterwards (like minecraft is still fun after you build the best possible armor and tools or seen the end) but you won't have that fun of exploring new things in the game again or have the fun of trial and error.

But Dwarf fortress... Even after years it still manages to amaze me on how complex it is, what possibilities exist, the worlds than can be generated, the stories that are randomly generated, hell even the randomly generated monsters still tend to surprise me. So far, not a single fortress i had was like another fortress, each single one was unique. I can't say that for any other sandbox game, as each start in them doesn't differ so much from any other start.

Rimworld is the first dwarf fortress inspired game i actually enjoy playing.

I think what you'll see in future is a bit more variation and randomness as well. [....]

That sounds great .

Btw. i started my "no turrets" game and i survived wave for wave. I never lost more then 2 people on a wave and if i did the next wave was smaller or it took a long time till the next wave arrived. (and i haven't lost anyone on the first 10 waves or so). It still felt vary well balanced (and was definitely more fun then my previous attempts!)

In about 6 hours of playing (in the fastest speed possible) i only had one single solar flare instead of 5 in a row. The game started to lag though.

So, currently, the least turrets you have the better and no turret at all is a perfectly working strategy.

Oh, just another thing i observed in this game. One of my 3 starting colonists wanted to leave the colony and i arrested him. Afterwards there were a lot of travelers passing by, also events like someone crash landing and being wounded etc. So  i build a big prison and convinced 8 people in a very short time.

Is it possible that arrested people don't increase your population and thus the game keeps throwing people to recruit at you?