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#1
Quote from: Fluffy (l2032) on October 14, 2015, 10:03:41 AM
I vaguely recall someone (I think A2B's author - not sure) saying they didn't intend A2B to make rimworld into a factorio derivative...

Indeed. People at A2Bcorp are not keen on expanding A2B to crafting machines in the same mod. However, people at A2Bcorp are VERY keen to create a companion mod that focuses on crafting - e.g. something called "A2B machines", which people could install alongside 'A2B conveyor belts & co". The A2B Github repo is the perfect place to get this done, and ensure easy access as well as compatibility between the two systems.

There has been many people in the past asking/hoping/dreaming for something like "A2B Machines" to get done. Machines could be anything, from "rock chunks to sand" devices all the way to "beer factories" and the like. There just hasn't been anyone with enough motivation and time to make this a reality.

As written above, the best way to get to it (and ensure maximum portability) would be to feed any machines with vanilla hoppers. That way, people would be free to use the A2B belts - or not - as they wish. And keep the two mods nicely separated.



#2
Well, as described in the OP, it's all on Github: https://github.com/A2Bcorp/RW_A2B

You can fork what you'd like to improve, and then push your work, so we can have a look at it and merge it. But for the A2B: machines, you're probably better off writing the mod from scratch, since you don't need all the Belt-specific mechanisms, and it really should be stand-alone.

Just to be clear: we're all very independent within the A2B corporation. We code and develop things on our own, and only merge them when they are ready/near-ready. The "team" aspect comes in at these very late stages to iron-out bugs and things. In particular, we don't code extensive elements together. I can't speak for other members in the coporation, but we're all very busy and with plans on our own. This is why "joining the A2B corporation" has always "followed" a large contribution from an individual, rather than "preceded" it. In other words, if you code an add-on/co-mod for the A2B system, then you're in the corporation. But you should NOT expect that "joining the corporation" implies that the corporation will massively help you write a co-mod like A2B: machines. For that, you're still on your own - at least until you have some working code to share and that we can look at. Hopefully that makes sense ?

As per anonymity, none of us actually know each others other than via our RM forum and Github user names, so no issues there. We won't ask for your credit card number ;)
#3
** Post-holiday long post warning **

Quote from: donoya on August 07, 2015, 05:47:23 PM
Is there any specific individuals who might be able to make specified production machine a reality? It's kind-of hard to tell if the "addons" are only made by you and your team, or if anyone is able to make an addon for your mod. Should I just ask anyone willing to do it on the mod request forum, or should I ask someone specific (such as yourself) via private message(if that's even a thing here)?

Anyone is welcome to join us at the A2B corporation. The more we are the merrier, and the higher the chances for the mod to last longer. For example, I just came back from 3 weeks offline, but things kept moving on this thread!

As 1000101 pointed out, we had different kind of external contributions in the past, ranging from one-off improvements to extended pushes to Github over several alphas. Usually, large contributors join the team (for one alpha or longer), and get to influence/contribute more directly the future of the mod if they want to.

Regarding the crafting plant idea - this is something that I have personally wished for for a while. Mostly because it would be the perfect complement to the belt system. As was said many times before, the A2B: conveyor belts "core" mod itself will only ever deal with transport issues. And I want to keep it that way (i.e. small and specific), because I think mods should be small and adaptable. Users should be able to use only features they want/like. I, for one, hate to play with large mods just because they have 1 element I have but otherwise useless features (to me), or graphics I dislike. Which is exactly why I very much dislike mod-packs, and always cherry pick mods I really enjoy. Not that I don't see the point of mod-packs, but they cater to the masses as a whole, while I try to cater to the masses as a collection of individuals. I am sure you will have seen the strong push from mod-authors making their respective mods customizable using the add-ons approach. A2B is no different to these.

The way I see things, I would create a parallel mod to "A2B: conveyor belts", called "A2B: Machines" (or something alike). Both would be very closely linked and hosted together on our Github account, but yet fully separated, and could be played independently (i.e. machines should be fed by simple hoppers). People maintaining either mod would also not need to be the same either. So, not an add-on to A2B:conveyor belts, but rather a "co-mod" ...

Regarding finding people to do it, well, good luck ;) In the past, I found that very few/no people are willing to code everything from scratch for someone else, unless they LOVE the idea. Most of us within A2B are already flat-out or busy otherwise ... and an old "help fishing expedition" (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=6638.msg65517#msg65517) of mine encountered little success ... ;) Requests for help for specific issues are much (MUCH) more likely to get support from the community, so your best bet would be to try coding things yourself, see how far you can get, and ask for specific help as required.

For example: a simple machine would not be too different from a nutrient paste dispenser - only with different ingredient requirements. I was thinking, as a test case, to adapt the nutrient paste dispenser into a rock crusher machine. Takes rock chunks in, and returns some sand on the floor around it. Or as a start, rock chunks -> stone blocks. Or you could start with creating killer graphics, which might help motivate others to join your endeavour ... I thought a 3-tiles x 3-tiles structure (à-la geothermal generator) would be appropriate and nicely symmetric (I attach an old first-attempt design).

Well, that was a long post ... but I hope it shines some light on the structure and functioning of the A2B corporation !

[attachment deleted due to age]
#4
No.

Okay, that's a bit harsh :) It is a fair suggestion, but my answer is no, not in the main mod (unless the other A2Bcorp members manage to convince me otherwise). If someone wants to code this as an add-on, then sure, why not. This is what add-ons are for.

But I personally still aim at keeping the main mod as small as possible. Underground belts are useful as they are and already fully serve their purpose: to allow your colonists to cross the belts, etc ... adding underground curves and selectors only expands the amount of choice (and clutter), but doesn't add any new functionality. And so far, I have always been very reluctant top add anything redundant ...

Long story short, the A2B corporation will welcome with open arms any code suggestions for implementing underground curves and selectors as an add-on. But I won't code this myself ... ;) I can't speak for the other A2Bcorp member of course ...


#5
Belts are not walls anymore - so, you can't close a room with them. At this time however, any meals on the belts will be immune to decay (i.e. immune to large temperatures).

Hoping to fix that eventually ...

#6
Quote from: millenium on May 09, 2015, 09:01:16 AM
honestly i would like the option to keep the teleporters unless theres a major issue in the code.

I am fairly certain that the teleporters will be removed from the main mod. They are largely redundant with the undercover/undertaker system (except for going through mountains), and I was never quite satisfied with their design (as many other mod users as well).

There is also another dedicated teleportation mod by Haplo (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=7570.0). If you really want/need long range fancy transport, I would suggest using this mod in complement to A2B.

Finally, if you are really really keen to keep the A2B Teleporters alive, why not create an add-on ? We have just had our first official add-on by 1000101 that offers 11 new selector designs. These will not be included in the main mod (see this thread a few posts back for details), but they are perfect as an add-on: easily accessible for whoever likes/needs them, without impacting the basic mod users.

Quote from: Arief on May 09, 2015, 09:42:11 AM
Maybe you could add drones if you are removing the teleporters.

Well, I certainly like the idea, but I am also pretty certain that this won't happen ... :) I'm trying to keep things to a minimum in the main mod for clarity and simplicity's sakes. As it was pointed out, there's already a lot of 'droid mods' out there ... If you really feel like flying drones ... maybe you could create an A2B add-on ? :D

#7
Quote from: s7jones on April 30, 2015, 04:55:30 PM
[...] I was wondering if there are any mods that particularly benefit from the use of conveyor belts too [...]

We had a nice partnership with Rikiki's "Deep Driller" mod a few Alpha's back. But that mod was discontinued. At the present, the A2B belts can be used to feed the teleporter device designed by Haplo. It is still a transport mod, but as the teleporter/receivers in A2B will soon be removed, using the two together will become more meaningful.

Other than that, I am sadly not aware of any mod that could significantly benefit from the belts. I.e. I don't know of any 'machine and devices mod' out there. Ultimately, because the A2B belts can reload hoppers and any storage spot, chances are that A2B will work right away with any processing machine similar to the nutrient paste dispenser (e.g. only requires power and food to work).

Hope that helps. Did you have any specific idea/wish in mind ?

Quote from: Damienov on April 30, 2015, 02:44:51 PM
No clashes with all alpha 10 mod except for Tools for Haul mod. When a pawn equipping a cargo (from the tools for haul mod) using the conveyor belt, the cargo will be loaded into the belt along with its contents, unfortunately the cargo will get stuck at the conveyor belt exit.

Thanks for reporting that ! This i the first time A2B clashes with another mod, and is good to know. At this time, I've read here and there that the "Tools for Haul" mod has memory leaks, so, I would not recommend using it. But in principle, I don't see why this mod should not be compatible with A2B: I'll take a look eventually, and see if we can reconcile them.
#8
Unfinished / Re: [WIP] Signals, you can't stop them!
April 27, 2015, 03:10:00 AM
I guess you are right - a separate mod package is going to be the safest and cleanest way to go, and most portable as well.

Depending on what you have in mind in terms of belts, we could also try {...} except{...} here and there. But then our two mods become intertwined, and maintenance could become problematic.

To some extent, it depends whether you are thinking of adding new belt elements, or if you would rather want to modify the behavior of existing ones. Well, let's talk some more when we get there !


#9
Unfinished / Re: [WIP] Signals, you can't stop them!
April 27, 2015, 12:23:59 AM
Quote from: justarandomgeek on March 07, 2015, 08:40:14 PM
[...] Eventually I'm also hoping to [...] make some components that link with the A2B belts to allow smarter thing-routing.

That sounds like a great idea. Let's get in touch when you get to that stage to make it happen one way or another. By then, the A2B mod should have reached a new stable level with underground belt instead of teleporters. And (hopefully) food degradation.
#10
Quote from: jefferyharrell on April 20, 2015, 11:29:30 AM
Does the mod do underground conveyor belts now?

Not just yet, but soon (i.e. next weekend-ish). I need to test it Alpha10d, and run a few more sanity checks. These underground belts (only straight lines !) will be released along-side teleporters+receivers at first. If it all goes well, I will then remove the teleporters+receivers pair altogether, as both system are largely redundant.

And yes, they do behave like power conduits, i.e. can go under walls and tables and etc ...
#11
Quote from: 1000101 on April 20, 2015, 12:32:08 AM
You see your 2x4 is not the same logically as the 2x3 I use.  The difference is that the selector gets a second chance to select the item again which requires two inputs.

I still disagree - so let's settle this with an experiment !

I implemented my design in-game, and got 11 items out of 14 I sent down (80%). The exact sorting rate is in fact 75%, i.e. 3 out of 4 items get sorted out, and the last one goes through.

Experiment design: chunks fed one at time and not tight (i.e. the belt wasn't packed). Each exit is not jammed. And only chunks (1 item type) was sent.

You can improve the system further by adding additional "Merger - Splitter" rows just below the "Selector - straight belt" line. Each additional pair will reduce the fraction of mis-selected items by half. I.e.:

A 2x4 design gives you 75% selection rate
A 2x5 design gives you 88% selection rate
A 2x5 design gives you 93% selection rate
etc ...

Of course, you will never get to 100%, only exponentially close ...

Also to be noted: these fractions are upper-limits, when you feed ONLY the item you want to sort. Feeding other items might reduce the exact number depending on their frequency, arrangement, etc ...

When doing the same experiment under the same conditions with your design, I get the same output of 75% selection. Neither design can do anything regarding contamination by other items. Really, I fail to see any difference at all.

But by all means, feel free to prove me wrong - that's what Science is all about ! Do the experiment above under the same conditions, and I am fairly certain that you will too get 75% selection success with your design.


[attachment deleted due to age]
#12
Can't seem to see the screenshots ... am I doing something wrong or are the links outdated ?
#13
That's the design I have in mind - aren't they equivalent ?

I also build the individual "translations" of the new and old Selectors using the old and new systems. As you can see, the "old" selector is easy to implement with a 2x1 block in the new system, whereas replicating the "new" system with the old Selector is much more complicated (but certainly do-able - note the two selectors will have their selected items mirrored). This is definitely an argument in favor of the new system. Of course, the real question is : how often do one uses BOTH exists "2" in the new selector ? I think the answer is "not very often", which then suggest the "old" Selector is a more appropriate design. Actually, I might start a poll to see how often people use both "2" exists in the new selector.

Quote from: 1000101 on April 19, 2015, 10:08:22 PM
I hope I didn't come off as demanding or otherwise disrespectful to your work and vision of what your mod should be.

Don't worry - that's the kind of discussions I like ;) My driver really is to keep the number of belt elements to a minimum. I would hate to have redundancy, because it only complicate the maintenance of the mod (for which I have very little time), makes updates difficult, confuses players, and clutters the screen (which I hate).

So, I am really keen to get the few elements designed just right to fit most design needs - and the kind of discussions we are having is what I need to open my mind to designs I had not previously envisaged. I still haven't quite gotten my head around your 'soft selector' idea, but I will give it more thoughts.

Note that anyone willing to contribute to the mod directly is more than welcome to do so - that's why it is on Github, and that's why we have a separate account for it on the forum. That way, hopefully, the mod will outlast myself on here, and won't just die out ;) If you want to design the soft-selector, I'd be happy to add it to the mod and see how it works out ...

Right now, my focus is on the underground system.

Edit:
Thanks FamousShoes for the feedback. You do make a very good point - now I remember why I thought it made so much sense to have a symmetric splitter in the first place :D
I won't revert things just now "because I don't have the time" (and will ponder the matter further). Part of the issue lies in the fact that I am yet to play with the mod in A10 and thoroughly test the system for myself.

In the meantime, I'd suggest using the combination ' selector+ merger = old selector '. But it looks like this "Selector" question will remain a tricky one for the foreseeable future ...  ;)

[attachment deleted due to age]
#14
Quote from: 1000101 on March 22, 2015, 04:33:44 AM
First, loaders get a toggle option for "wait for full stack" which will ... wait ... for a full stack ... before sending it down the line.

Hi 1000101,
Happy to know you find the A2B system useful - always glad to hear this. As per the "full stack" suggestion, I think this extra button would be confusing, and could also cause serious problems (i.e., what if your colonist is hauling more than allowed in the current state, etc ...). I think this is a fair request though, but I guess I would try to implement differently: i.e. the belt do by default stack items "on the move", if they encounter a jam. That way you won't fill the belt system as fast, but there's no need to worry about anything on the user end. Note that this is already in place for the Unloaders (I think?) when dropping items on the floor.

Quote from: 1000101 on March 22, 2015, 04:33:44 AM
Second, a "soft" selector-splitter hybrid which has one filtered output and two unfiltered outputs.

That, I am much less in favor ... ;) While I can see the benefit in some cases, it would also be a very confusing element - and I think that a 2x3 system is "alright" in that case ... and that's a great design, assembling basic logic blocks in something more fancy !

Quote from: passi965 on March 23, 2015, 05:57:01 AM
And i know that Conveyor belts sort of act like walls, so the conveyor belts are to small to support a roof (and let through heat) but high enough to be inpassable.

This should be fixed in the next release, hopefully. I.e. belts will not act like walls anymore, with all of the consequences that this implies - no thermal isolation, etc ...
#15
Well, I remember choosing the priority to be larger than normal, but I can't really remember why ... ;)

I agree with you, and don't really see a good reason for it right now. Probably worth changing this to normal as you suggest.

Note that in the next release, all items will be "forbidden" by default in the Loader's list, so your colonists will not start hauling anything until you set up the Loader as you want/need. That should help as well ...