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I think the raider AI will get improved.  hes already stated how difficult it is to work with AI and get it working right.  The zerg rush mentality is just the basic framework.  He added sieges.  He will add more, but the rest of the game needs love too and thats where his focus has been, as it should be.  he mentioned before that hes taking notes with this thread so even if the next few updates dont do much with raiders they will be on his list.  we can have a whole thread dedicated to raider AI, maybe those of you who had lots to say on them should make one.  lets focus this thread on other means, and assume for the moment that raiders remain the same, or will be improved in time.  yes i know they are related but they are both big topics.

I have to disagree with you here.

Firstly, if one of the main problems leading to people hiding under the mountain is the simplistic AI, it fully belongs in this thread.

Secondly, the AI tends to be the orphan child of game development. It is complicated to implement, so it is easy for designers to put it away for some undetermined future moment. It is less visible than moar content, so players are easily persuaded that they can live without it if they get a cool new gizmo instead.

I cannot stand by that. Cool new toys are very easy for mods to add and implement (examples in RimWorld are aplenty.) Programming better AI can only be done by the actual game designer and is of paramount importance to the game experience.

If anything, this thread proves that the AI needs some love. I think that sweeping this topic under the carpet will do the game no good. In fact, I would be more than happy if Alpha 8 introduced nothing new but AI improvements.

Don't read too much into "endgame" - it might just be that point at which there's nothing new left to throw at the player.

Even if I didn't see a single post by Tynan, I would have come to the same conclusion based on how things play out in-game.

With diseases being introduced, the lack of sun and protein (meat or survival meals) should increase the probability of going sick. Or to make it a carrot: meat and sun should decrease the probability of going sick. This is a great idea, guys!

Also, I think the key thing we are all agreeing on is that raiders/visitors need to have some purpose to their visits. Two followup thoughts to that:
- why not give the raiders the ability to do some of the same jobs as the colonists? If raiders were able to mine through the mountain, we couldn't seal the entrance shut and wait for them to go away... Because they would mine their way into our base.
- I think it would be really cool if the diplomacy screen included things that the specific faction needs. E.g., "these raiders are short on metal". You could buy them off with some of your metal (and have them bugger off for a while) or if you don't, they would show up, trying to steal some of your metal, or maybe they would establish an outpost and try to mine on your territory (playing off of my idea above) unless you scare them off... The game would then revolve more around resource management and less around tower defense.

Another thought I have: Tynan keeps talking about "endgame". I think he *wants* the game to be over in a year or two. You either die or flee. I am not sure I like that. Currently, I feel we have the choice between difficulty levels that are boring/don't provide enough challenge or levels that will ultimately screw you over. I think that Phoebe should be reengineered to stack up the challenges more until she detects that your wealth has gone down significantly. Then she should let you rebuild for a while. I.e., she should be more like Cassandra, but without the ultimate downfall that Cassandra always seems to end in. I would love to play the same colony for even 10 years having a progression like that. What do you guys think?

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You, sir, are a genius. It has been a long time since I last laughed that hard.

I stopped two weeks ago and Alpha 7 is still not out :I

Same here. And I have a feeling it will come out tomorrow, right before my business trip. (goes to sob quietly in the corner)

Removing hydroponics also crossed my mind. Or at least nerfing it (make it further down the research tree and/or make it LESS efficient than normal farming).

Some of the ideas in the recent posts that I especially like:
-automatic behavior patterns for drafted colonists (defensive, aggressive, etc.). I think that the raiders would also benefit from that addition, as they would get some more intelligent behaviors
-improvements to sieges - it has to be the most common suggestion in this thread: make mortars target power supplies/other mortars/turrets instead of colonists
-giving every raid (or at least some raids) a specific purpose: they are here to... (destroy the power generators, steal the food, burn down crops... you name it).

I think that we should start by requiring building walls/floors underground. Currently, an underground base is simply too cheap material-wise.

At the moment, you are perfectly fine with stone walls and free smooth stone floors. Giving a strong mood debuff for naked stone walls and removing free smooth stone floors would go a long way towards balancing out costs between an outdoors base and a mountain one.

Number 1 looks like a huge investment development-wise, but I would be sooo happy if Tynan added manned vehicles. Although I would like to see them mostly as an additional resource for pirates to harass us with.

Number 4 I suggested the minute the changelog had mentioned lockable doors. I hope this gets added. Doesn't look too difficult to do.

Number 2 and 5 don't appeal to me all that much.

Number 3 - not needed, but would be awesome, I give you that.

Since writing that story I have discovered that Scythers are very helpless in melee. I let them approach the base and then melee attack them with two or three colonists. The only problem is when they come in large groups.

If we want people outside, you need to make outside more viable, not making the inside less viable.

Agreed. Any ideas of your own on how to do it?

My first post on the first page detailed my main idea.  Nullify drop pod threats by giving us a shield or point defence system of some kind.  I just started a new game in the jungle, no mountains, and I'm going to see how it turns out.  Never really done a long term game that way and I am curious if it brings any new ideas.

I missed it, this thread has gotten quite long... I think that roofs should be constructed like floors, and not be an automatic feature. This way we could also benefit from the new stuff system and build them from stronger materials.

If we want people outside, you need to make outside more viable, not making the inside less viable.

Agreed. Any ideas of your own on how to do it?

Well, mining a hundred meters into a mountain in a matter of days in nothing if not unrealistic. In real life, tunneling through mountains requires extremely expensive equipment and can take years.

Maybe not with modern technology, but this game isnt really set with modern tech.  For all we know the colonists are using nano swarms to eat the rock or whatever. Would you rather we spend hours of realtime with the game at time warp 3 just to clear a tile?  You need to balance realism with fun.  Not punish people for playing differently than you.

I have voiced my opinion earlier: I think the core of the mountain should be nearly impossible to mine. The outer layer with ores should be made slightly more difficult to mine, but not very hard.

I don't want to punish people for playing differently than I do. I almost always build mountain bases, so if anything, I have started this thread to brainstorm ideas on how to make outside bases more interesting/viable/playable. I don't understand why you have gotten so defensive.

Having mortars cost ammo is good but i generally dont use them.  I dont think mountain bases should be nerfed or punished.  Its a valid base choice.  As long as things are 'realistic' then we should always be allowed to do it.  Not telling people they are having fun the wrong way and force them outside with punitive measures.

Well, mining a hundred meters into a mountain in a matter of days in nothing if not unrealistic. In real life, tunneling through mountains requires extremely expensive equipment and can take years.

While I din't appreciate ShadowDragon8685's tone, he did bring up one excellent point: we have been all concentrating on sticks: how to force people to change their play styles. What we need is more incentives to go outside/explore.

Some possible incentives to stay outside/explore:
- better supplies falling from the sky - I never bother picking up the falling metal/stone blocks/whatever, as I can make my own. There should be unique stuff there worth hauling to your base (imagine a crashed medical ship with medicine and artificial limbs or something, or maybe every map should be missing some resources by default)
- now that we have multiple ores, have them exist in veins, so that no single mountain has all of them - that way we will at least need mining expeditions/outposts
- make scavenging more useful - add plants which cannot be grown artificially and are too useful to ignore, like herbs that can be used as medicine or super-tasty fruit that boosts the mood significantly or poison you can apply to your pilas/machetes/whatever
- add "lingering dangers" that don't attack the base directly but circle around it and pick off unwary colonists - so that getting rid of them becomes a priority. Examples: a panther that never approaches if there is more than one person around, a group of pirate saboteurs that set up a small base on the opposite end of the map and make small excursions whenever they can get away with it and burn your crops but never actually attack the main base... that kind of stuff.

On topic of sieges: I think mortars should be way more powerful - currently, it is possible to simply ignore the siegers because I can repair my base faster than they can damage it. Or they should have some more artillery options which are not buildable by the colony. It would be logical that factions established on the planet have access to better gear than a stranded ragtag band of colonists. (And winning against the siegers would mean getting access to that superior weaponry.)

Also: siegers should always prioritize destroying power generators.


On topic of mining: one idea would be to make the mountain core made of some very hard material, almost impossible to tear down. This way, you could make a halfway mountain base, but at some point you would literally "hit the wall".

I made a thread on that exact topic a while back and it gets updated occasionally with new seeds...
http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=5659.0

I think your idea (a dedicated page on the Wiki) is great but for when the game no longer is in Alpha. Right now, Tynan will probably tweak world generation at one point or another, and the seeds will generate some other maps than they currently do.