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Yep, pretty much how i think it would work, i was gonna write a short anecdote in my last post relating pretty much the same but decided i do too much of that already, heh.

I'm still not sure though about exactly it would affect mood, as in: below a 20% threshold you'd get -10 to mood, above 90% a +10 (and stuff in between). Would be something along these lines?

Obs: Ditch fun, they already use it in sims as one of their needs. Plus joy/recreation/entertainment is more broad. You can get joy by appreciating how nature is beautiful but it doesn't necessarily mean its *fun*. But then again fun might have this meaning for some english cultures?

Mood is the integrated result of every other need in the game as passed through a set of thoughts, each with a mood offset.

Joy is much narrower and represents someone's need to relax and enjoy themselves and not be working/struggling all the time. I suppose I could call it "recreation" but I like short names, and "fun" doesn't quite capture it for me. Will have to consider the naming on this.

EDIT: Btw it works the same way as all the other needs (food, rest, fun, space, and beauty). They're all independent and they all ultimately just activate thoughts in the mood system. The mood is what does the actual work; it's the "final result" of all the needs' effects.

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Cool, it'll work as i predicted then, so joy from these particular traits would indeed be redundant. The way i see it, joy will work as some sort of buffer zone so your pawns don't need to immediately seek joy after some mood hits or to stop you from exploiting mood bonuses. Or something like that.

I like joy, better than the "idle activities" i've been wanting around. I see nothing wrong with recreation or entertainment aswell.

Thanks Vap, but please don't spam multiple posts in a row, especially with a big repeated quote. ( Rule 10: https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=122.0 )

Fixed; I apologize; Forgot that rule o.o

Anyway; how exactly would colonist's build snow men..does this mean that snow will become a collectible resource? Could snowmen be made as partial cover during winter?

Abstraction. If there's snow in the ground they stand there doing some movement until they create a snowman object out of nothing. It occupies a square and can be taken down, but isn't worth anything and doesn't give anything upon destruction. (that's how i'd do it).

Another random thought...
Communications Station:  Calling home

In the context of crashing and being stranded on a rim planet you'd think if they had the ability to call for home they could radio for help?

Perhaps he means attempting calling home, that would make more sense and a cute ref to e.t. (i like it)

Sorry if it's in there already, I lightly skimmed the following posts, But what about the traits?
Such as Cannibal, Nudist, Bloodlust etc. Nudist recieving joy from being in the nude, cannibal from eating humans of course. But how would the Bloodlust, Psychopath and Masochists be handled?

Since joy is still a muddled concept and we don't know how it will interact with mood, i'd say traits shouldn't specifically give joy as they already give mood. So, let's say that we'll have a "joy meter" similar to hunger and mood, what is the impact of having a high joy or a low one? A mood buff or mood penalty? If it is so, then giving joy for having these traits is redundant.

Only barely. And its not only movement that power armor should hamper, i was thinking more about work efficiency, unless it's a work model powered exo-skeleton (complete with yellow lights and orange paintjob). Don't know what's a Waldo =\

For specialized work i'd agree, although i'd really pay to see a skill 0 pawn perform a brain surgery and see the bloody result, i mean, the chances are slim, but yay for having the option. But for dumb labor, there's no reason why you shouldn't push even the more lazy of your people to haul or clean stuff, even if it penalizes their mood.

@Killaim, check Tynam's Joy post, i've made quite the similar suggestion which ties with the near possible joy feature.

Since we are dabbling hauling, something i'd like to see is reduced mobility or carrying capacity when donning full armor and carrying heavy weaponry. This is actually a personal pet peeve of mine, since i find it VERY immersion breaking having your characters running around in power armor and miniguns attending to gardens, cooking and sleeping. So, at least, someone without that much equipment could be able to haul more stuff (something like a dedicated hauler). Problem is that we'd need an auto-equip feature because it gets tiring to micro the equipping every invasion you get, which is as common as seasons.

This makes sense and would go a step further into making me using a NPD (which i don't, ever), which is a shame because i like the concept.

The mood hit is too high at -8 right, the ungrateful pigs should be glad they get to eat something while so many in the multiverse starves.


(+1)

I'm always finding myself in need of wood. That's because i like to build outside and build cozy wood cabins.

I didn't follow this post closely so i won't give any insights, but i figured i should voice my POV.

I haven't played much with planting or used the pumps in any extensive manner, but when i did it provided me with a fun time, it entertained me, which is the purpose of the game, so the idea of removing both of these COMPLETELY AGE-OLD NATURAL AND OBVIOUS ABILITIES (planting stuff and fertilizing stuff) feels pretty radical for me. Perhaps its the fact that i never used with an exploiting mind, even so it just shows that it's not the idea of planting trees and fertilizing the ground that is wrong: it's the execution of it (well, obvious right?).

So, i'll throw right back at ya: All the mantra here of not getting moved by the "realism" argument is bollocks (and i mean this in a friendly way). You're just spitting on the plate you ate, everything is built upon "realism", and while we don't need to factor every reality bit inside a game, or how its being said: a game doesn't need to be realistic, but it does need verisimilitude. There's absolutely no reason why 5k years from now the human race and your intrepid group of spaceship builders wouldn't be able to plant a tree or build a fertilizer pump.

Taking away both, like it has been pointed, just feels like a cheap way to challenge or to make a biome unique.
Want to make it unique? Give it unique events, give it unique fauna & flora, resources availability, power generation potential, enemies. Already on track? Good! Enhance upon, just don't take away options, improve them.

What's so bad about planting trees? The speed they grow? There are exploding mice in the game. Is it exploitable? Slow the growth speed, make it require a specific soil, an expensive growing technique or a terraforming gardening equipment, seeds, constant care, specific animals, birds, rain, whatever reason. Make it impossible to plant in a desert, its okay, it makes sense, but geez, let me plant my tree garden in my hard-earned dream colony, let me put a tree in front of Ross' house so he can have a shade and watch the birds.

Fertilizer pump is OP? Uhh, nerf it? Lower the radius, denies certain terrains to become soil, make it require water or some other resource, make it so if you delete it, it returns to its old terrain type, move it waaaay further in tech tree, make it require hard-to-buy equipment, change its purpose a little. I mean, all these rimplanets have all been terraformed but your rapidly-advancing colony can't built a fertilizing pump?

Well, that sounded a bit ragey, but i just didn't see a good justifiable reason that couldn't be addressed in a better way

I'd also be thrilled to see the joy bar filling while a colonist is exercising a passion, and perhaps a minor drain when doing work they're not interested in. This would make the random character creation make more sense, as I've seen at least one flame on all but one or two skills before, which has struck me as incongruous. How many people can be passionate green thumbs and melee brawlers, plus actively interested in mining, construction, cooking, and medicine?

I suppose that's how it will work, every action you do will drain joy except when you do joy actions.
Problem with passions being tied to joy is that, besides there being a lot of them (probably would need a re-balance with a more economical approach) some passions simply don't cut it as "joy-bringers,  passions were made to regulate pawn growth but were not made with joy in mind, so passions like mining are there to make someone good at mining but its very hard to believe they actually like to spend their days in a dark hole getting smudged all over.

You can be satisfied and content with your profession, but its usually the personal pursuing that brings joy, not when you're doing it for someone else. A crafter wouldn't get joy from crafting a sword, but would get joy by crafting a toy or a ship-in-a-bottle or something of personal value. I'm aware that someone might enjoy crafting a sword, but i'm talking about professionals working day-to-day not hobbyists, so for a gameplay decision we'd have to say that work/profit related stuff you wouldn't get joy but personal/non-profit stuff you get joy.

That said, while i don't think passion should be a big thing on earning joy (or better, it shouldn't), it might have an impact on how you lose it: You drain less joy from doing a passion related job. How does that sound?

If instead one flame marked neutral feeling on a subject, and none marked something of no interest to the colonist, the denotation would be different.

So, to follow, a passion would reduce joy drain (supposing we'd have a joy meter). non-Passions would incur in normal drain. What about a "negative" passion? A red flame, an aversion?

As i suggested somewhere before, i think survivors don't get to say they are incapable of doing jobs (specially dumb labor like hauling), but incapacity of certain tasks should be exchanged for red flames of aversion, so while they can still perform said tasks, the joy drain would be very high. For example, you can still force you lazy noble to work his ass off, but he will be pretty pissed about it!

Besides passion, it's quite given that background and traits should influence over which joy options the pawn would prefer or get the most joy out of it.
Something like this:
- Every pawn has a base % of chance to pursue a certain joy "attraction". Say you have x joy options, each pawn would have some random number assigned to each, like a 1-10% of pursuing it. Then traits, backgrounds and passions would give a boost to a few related joy attractions, increasing or decreasing the chance of pursue, but not negating others. Likewise, temporary events and thoughts could have a say on this %, like a feast is happening and the desire to pursue joy by chatting and drinking goes way up.
-Every joy provides certain fulfillment that also has a random base and is influenced by traits, passions and thoughts.
-To keep it organic and lively, is that even if a certain joy attraction gives more joy, there's still a chance they'd pursue different joys. A mood buff by doing having multiple types of joy could be in order

-Each joy also could have distinct execution times, joy value and mood buffs (its not clear how joy will interact with mood?). So while gaming could fill the joy bar it would not provide a mood bonus after you stopped playing, while having sex or having watched an aurora Borealis could give a small day bonus.

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@Tynan:

How do you think it will or it should work the interaction between joy and mood?

The simple way would be to: A joy meter that below a certain threshold gives a mood debuff, and above a mood buff. Would that be it?

Such is the world of art. If not, everyone would just do...art

Don't forget art also provides beauty, and in future patches will probably (it should) provide  joy, both from crafting and looking.

Don't be afraid to lose your cheap cow machine, but then again i like my games hard.

Medieval shields then Riot shields then Energy shields. There, we can have peace now. And fun.

(...)However if you can just simply plop down from space and instantly build a solar panel and collect electricity this argument is completely invalid. 

Yeah, that's the gist of it. Also, i understand and even support granularity in tech (and other complexities like chain production), i'm just pointing that, specifically, flintlocks are not the way to go. If your guys can make solar panels from the go and if they can craft flintlocks, they can craft revolvers, rifles, etc. But i agree, crafting a charged rifle should be in another tier.

Also, the quality degrees are already there, so a crude gun could be akin to a flintlock, or something like that.

Or how about outlander towns having an intermediate level of equipment.
Example: Instead of a member of an outlander town coming with an R4 they would come with a Springfield trapdoor 45/70 rifle.

-Argon

Yep! That makes more sense and fits the lore. Kinda like the tribals using the primitive weapons. But these should be inferior to what you can build.

I wouldn't go so far as to call social classes (although the struggle is real), but some sort of hierarchy could give a lot of flavor to the game, and i can see how someone with a commanding background could give some sort of bonus in combat or how someone with an empath or political leadership bg could help with internal struggles and coexistence.

There's been talk about having leaders, calling votes and such. In very gamey aspects there could be something like a military leader giving combat bonuses, a political leader giving mood bonuses, a scientific leader giving research, and so on... Of course, i wouldn't make it so gameysh, but perhaps depending on the skills of the leader or sub-leaders you'd have such and such bonuses.

Speaking of sub-leaders, Dead state has this system where you are the main leader/spokesman but then there are a number of authority figures that each have their own "followers", who support their leaders. Each sub-leader will then have a certain opinion regarding a course of action under some crisis, and may or may not support you (or in this case, the player's decisions).

I think a similar system could give flavor to RW, for example every year there could be elections and each pawn would give votes to what should be the course of action the colony should take in the following year, like improving defenses, acquiring more wealth, no more deaths, reaching a certain amount of happiness, building stuff, etcetera. I don't know exactly how it should be done, for sure you don't control a single pawn-leader, so you either represent someone or just the overall colony.

And sure, from a realistic and cinematic POV the idea of authority figures and hierarchy is gold.

To be fair...the flintlocks would be from societies that still make square wheels...going by your metaphor anyway

There should be 18th and 19th century weapons just as well.

Hehehe, i'd say you missed the purpose of my metaphor then

What I'm saying is that we don't need to recreate all the technological steps of gun crafting to reach the most hi-tech stuff, that would mean a lot of steps and a lot of similar and - in game terms - redundant steps, like going from fire lances to muskets to matchlocks to wheellocks and flintlock to caps to... This is not age of empires, they are not "discovering" new techs, they are rediscovering it, so there are a lot of steps they could skip, and i think all these "locks" type are one of the "skippable" ones, unless someone who understands guns better presents a case, which i'm all open for.

In game and shallow-gun understanding, there's no pointing in using "obsolete" tech. Note the marks, because there's a difference between obsolete and primitive tech. Primitive tech is not obsolete if its all you can make or if its still efficient in what it does. A tech is obsolete if there are better ways to do the same stuff.

But i'm saying this because i believe that if you have the resources to craft a flintlock you could very well just go ahead and craft a "proper" gun, but if someone more knowledgeable presents the case that there's a decent enough jump from flints to repeaters (as in bows to repeaters) then I'd say sure, lets have flints, otherwise i think it's a unnecessary step just for the sake of unnecessary step.

I'd ditch selling art at all, at least for any worthwhile amount of money or for its regularity. I mean, lets just take a look at how we value art today, it's a complete subjective matter depending on perceived value and market potential or any of the highly debatable and centennial reason it has.

So, unless due to some rare trait you have a well established artist and, for some reason, you have a highly artistically aware trader that happens to bump into your colony and recognize the work of art done by the master artist, THEN i guess you could trade a large sum for it. But then again, why such trader isn't rescuing you (or the artist) is one of the oldest discussions (and plotholes IMO) in Rimworld.
   
Ditch selling art for silly and sustainable amounts of silver, make it the following: Every once in a while moon you get a trader event of some quirky trader who happens to be a connoisseur of art. He, casually, asks to scan any work of art you might have and is then amazed by the works of one of your pawns, saying something about hidden beauty and the raw visceral truth it conveys, so obviously he asks to buy all of the art of that pawn for some valuable silver. He then goes away without saying goodbye and saying nothing about a rescue because he's on a mission to find the perfect art or some other shit. (he IS quirky).

There, you can still profit from art (albeit a rare occurrence) and you have one extra event to make your story richer, you also solve the silly amount of wealth you make from art, which makes no sense because no trader should care a dime about some unknown artist in a backwater town you can barely call town.

+1 to the rest btw