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The sad part is, you two spent what looks like ages arguing if colonists can build robots or not from logic standpoint, which is... completely useless and irrelevant. If game mechanics behind either implementation are sound, an explanation will be presented later ^^'

No side won, because both solutions are viable, and not a single argument was presented for one being better than another. No effect or change on gameplay presented solely by one solution was pointed out. You two kept arguing what color the car you want should be, completely forgetting to discuss if it's better to buy a truck or a mini. In the end, it does not matter what is the color of the car, if it's not fitted to serve it's purpose... ain't it?

You can limit robots or balance them as you see fit with both these approaches. Most things work out exactly the same with both of them in fact. There is just one specific difference to both approaches and neither of you found it ^^' Don't take it the wrong way - it's just human to end up in situations like this - but it's quite embarrassing really

Your homework - find the difference and think how it would affect gameplay

PS. Untrustedlife - your editing habits are starting to work on my nerves ^^'

Yea, i tend to edit way too much, i'll work on that 

I thought it could be interpreted as a veeery bad pun, so I went for it. I remembered something from the Gnomoria forums, but usually my brain works quirky like that.

What i meant was, I'm Polish

And only good pun is a bad pun

The only good pun is a bad pun.....
that is.. very contradictory.....
But..makes sense in some way.....
strange....

You could have it fall from orbit as wreckage at some random point. You could have a trader in space selling it or maybe you even find one on the planet surface. Perhaps a roaming trader on the planet has blueprints to sell. Thing is in FTL the defense robot was unique and took up an eq slot if I remember. So naturally you would want it balanced to have just one and it would consume energy etc and have to recharge.

Would still be a nice addition. Robots are common in space exploration and travel. Just need that right balance yet still make it a viable option and still random so you don't always find or have one.

Having it fall along with debris from the ship sounds like a great idea and a good compromise for all the opinions here.

Why not a SCV from starcraft where you put a person in it? An economy version of it?

Or a mule that has a timer or deficiency rate or constant recharge(like 2 batteries per mule)

That's an interesting idea as well! Exosceletons are more simple in design than robots, and for a space colonies with limited man power using such equipment seems to be the most logical solution to make the most of what people you have.


So I'd like this idea; Robots are a random incident that has a chance falling with the debris from your ship. You can then rescue and repair it before it explodes due to the damage, but they have a chance of being damaged and attacking your colonists. Once you have it operational your colonists need to haul it to the charging station, which will define it's operational range due to it's limited charge and dependency on the vicinity of a recharging station.
{Edit; Basically, the robots would be multi-functional "species" that act as colonists that don't need to eat or sleep, their morale is stable, but require a lot of power and maintenance. As in they break like walls, conduits and all the equipment."}

In addition to that, a simple exoskeleton item that would act as a weapon (Colonist equipped with it can't fight) will boost their physical abilities and speed at which they perform tasks.

All that combined with rarity and high cost of maintenance and I think we are getting somewhere!

@Untrustedlife
Having done same mistake before, I would advice you to argue less and just let it slide if something doesn't sit well with you.

If i don't like an idea I will make it known. Everyone deserves to have there opinion noted.

I have my own opinion, as do you, I wanted to make the idea less..gamebreaking.. I made my point.
Also, the scv seems like the best option here, the reason being that I just realized that if i had an army of robots I could build, it would make the battles less tense because you are not putting colonists in danger during battle. (tension is huge part of this game, especially on cassandra classic) but if you use scvs there is a colonist at the helm.

Also they aren't as advanced as super-intelligent-sentient robots.

Rare robots (as long as they are really rare)  would work as-well.
I still prefer getting then from traders of a higher tech level, but eh.

Maybe you could get them from ruins on the planet?
That would be interesting.

Add to it a "mini-quest" to get a special colonist from certain era (either as a in-game quest or end-game achievement) and I can agree for that 100%

Awesome, wish i hadn't re-edited that to make it less messy. *facepalm*

You would need a whole game for each era to be able to do that. Otherwise random start is not an option and loosing one colonist may very well mean doom for all. And even if you have a medieval food dispenser, I would prefer my game to be playable and enjoyable. I know for sure I would not enjoy such a system - with a simple loss of a colonist I could loose pretty much all my work, and this is way too far gone in my opinion.

System itself is... arguable... at best. In this game, there is no way of keeping track of what types of colonists player will have at which point, and as such designing such a system to be balanced and work under all conditions would be near impossible.

Also, games are not math, they don't need to be logical all the time

I totally understand your point having tech unlock by colonist may not work (if it goes away when they leave or die)

But i think the tech level of colonists should effect you in some way.

So for example if a medieval oaf joins, you can now make bows and arrows and swords (and other medieval looking items) like a medieval bed.
If somebody from the far future joins, you can build futuristic looking stuff.  A futuristic looking bed)

(all of this stays unlocked after they die)

I bet it could be balanced out.

Just sort of  a pallet swap. (just to make things look pretty)

Or some actual useful things, possibly. (if tynan is willing)

You should at least be actually interacting with people from the other tech levels.

this quote:

Your starting colonists in RimWorld are at a technological level in the middle of this span. But you may end up interacting with people at much lower and higher levels, as well as acquiring and using their tools and weapons. In RimWorld, a single fight can involve a bow and arrow, a revolver, a charged-shot pulse rifle, and a near-magical teleportation device.

Right now you really only interact with people from your tech level.

I belive they should effect what tech you have available to you why is it that if all my colonists are medieval slaves and lord that they know how to make solar panels.
It makes no sense.
Liek tynan said any given Battle could involve a bow and arrow, a m16 and a near magical teleportation device.

The tech levels do exist and are part of the game, I was suggesting making them more of a part of the game.

impressive.

what day are you on?
Chill ramps up difficulty by about day 40.

I usually play on Cassandra classic.

They will be free (But you didn't hear that from me)

I think robots make perfect sense. Like in FTL building a defense droid has it's uses but in no way replaces a human really. It compliments them when they are short on manpower for a specific role. Plus robots are just fun. Wether it cleans, chats, repairs, cuts grass, grows plants, hauls stuff and or fights raiders and or fires. You could use them as decoys or to draw fire. Perhaps like a shiv with suppression mounted weapon or fire suppression system. Endless options with droids and how you work them in. I'm assuming your an advanced form of terrans if your colonizing the outer rim. Either way an engineer makes perfect sense to compliment the machines.

Not necessarily a very advanced race of humans, you weren't actually colonizing, your transport vessel crashed on the planet ( check out the main page to see this) Plus we have medieval oafs with us. How did they get there anyway possibly being transported from their home-planet to be sold as slaves?

You aren't necessarily terrans either, but you are human, but no other inttelligence (besides that that is engineered by humanity) exists in this universe. These humans have most likely never even saw earth.

The lore talks of numerous tech levels in numerous levels of advancement.
Robotics is part of one of the higher tech levels (not the mid level, which your "colonists" are said to be at.)

Socieities tend to regress and progress, which is what makes the rimworld universe so awesome (since humans lack FTL travel but have still succesfully colonized the galaxy (at least some planets) via ships and cryo-pods that take hundreds or thousands of years to get to new solar systems), there are people who live in caves all the way up to people who have become part of a giant computer.

Also , why is it that we are limited to bullet weapons when we start then? if we were  so advanced that pistol would  be a lazer pistol or a lazer rifle (which you don't get until late-game).
Food for thought.

[Untrustedlife]

Dear Untrustedlife you intentionally ignored my notice about the presence of engineers. (yep, they're very good at making robots) I take it for a point for me then.


And, now, to your replies:

You need to be able to path find in real space.

It surely is easier in their 2D world, isn't it? If you wanna be realistic, be realistic.

Avoiding friendly fire. Hiding behind cover. Making tactical decisions in real time. Communicating with the colonists, to make plans.

Have you thought about the fact, that comms console also has some software protocol? And that implementing such a protocol ain't fun either?
So maybe, there may be some libraries for this. Ever heard of Open CV? That's not a sci-fi, that's reality. Set of libraries to make basic computer vision tasks super-easy.

Of course, you can deny this by another argument like "there is no internet or whatever".

But really, if you can program one thing, you can make another, it's just a matter of time. And if potatoes grow in one day, maybe an engineer will develop the system a little bit faster too.

The player isn't really "there" so to speak.

You can control the colonists with no problems. You can control blasting charges. Why not AI. And even if you couldn't - stop being so concerned about the AI development.

Your realism starts to collide with the fun aspect of the game - and it's just because you don't like robots.
All your arguments are just make-up to make your decision rational, while it isn't. (here, I'm not saying that irrational means bad or stupid. But I'd never try to make up some logic around the music I listen to.)

I can't hear you complaining about the fact, that making a radio station with range to the orbit (of maybe much much further) is not possible for a very long time.
I can't hear you complaining that you can dispatch charges by clicking at them (oh yes, here comes the player that isn't there).
I can't hear you complaining that the turrets can so easily tell between the colonist and the enemy.

So come on. Just admit it. You don't like this idea. That all you should've said, because that's the only thing that makes sense.

I am fine with robots if you only get them from rare traders.
I said that every single time.

You ignored my point that I made completely , i was telling the OP that you don't need to be a High tech level to build solar panels and stuff.I think building robots is out of the league of our colonists.That was what i was originally saying? How don't you get that?

also

Of course its a 2d game and pathfinding is easy in that,, easier with libraries (Yes i program , i am a programming major) , but it makes no sense that these colonists know how to make intelligent robots from scratch (in the universe of rimworld) that have "aI" which in this case means( can be controlled by the player as a soldier who isnt being remotely controlled by a colonist, and therefore has equal intelligence to the colonists, or is intelligent enough to make tactical descicians that are logical and right without the aid of a colonist) ., I'm sorry but however you try to attack my arguemnts with "its scifi robots fit" and engineers exist, engineers could also build trains, that would fit the game more actually. From a tech level perspective i don't think our colonists are at that point. Robots appear at later tech levels (it has been stated)
aliens fit in sci fi too you know, but they arent going to exist either

It just doesn't fit the tech level of our colonists, i know tynan will add them eventually he has expressed interest in machine life.

But colonists shouldn't build them they should come from traders.surely you get that?

I am enjoying this fiery discussion however.

but arguing is all about rhetoric.

maybe we can turn this into something more productive.

I will concede the fact that maybe..MAYBE after a very very long bout of research that you could theoretically build robots of higher intelligence then a auto turret. Possibly by advancing tech levels.
Perhaps, we can allow the player to advance in tech level over time.
What do you think of this?

Possibly, you would buy a robot then deconstruct it to learn how to build it?
(Well if the parts of the robot make sense to the colonists, no artificial brains connected to some strange brain reading device)
(I still don't think they would be able to comprehend the amount of programming this robot has had to go through to become so intelligent)

OP if you are reading this, please back up a page and read what I said.

[What's a defense robot, than a walking auto-turret?]

Oh... I thought the way the Nutrient Paste Dispensers created food was similar to how Stroggs made stroyent, by breaking down organic compounds with enzymes into the component parts needed to provide energy and the like to whoever got some.

If its just a blender, then we are technically having potatoe smoothie. Ewww. How is that "better" than a Raw Potato?

Because it is more filling, easier to eat. (the colonists still get a minus 8 from eating it)

I was just saying there is many ways that a group of people could go about "inventing" a "nurtrient paste" dispenser. Without super robot AI i robot technology.

I doubt an accountant could build a robot from scratch.

So there may be accountants but not engineers? Your logic is not logical. It's only question of what people will you get.

If you wanna be realistic, think it over one more time. Just the logic of yours:

What's a defense robot, than a walking auto-turret?
The most complicated task for robots is to automatically detect and acquire targets. Computer vision. That's something Auto turret needs to detect human and attack him.


And if one can automatically acquire moving targets, why not static ones like potato plants (harvesting robot)?

Also keep in mind that at the point where you're able to create gun, a simple leg mechanics is just fun. Guns are not just hollow sticks.
And if you don't like legs - they can have wheels, that's more fun anyway. There could be those tiny black cleaning robots from star wars.
If you know how automatic cleaners work, you must admit that this is rather a matter of good software. You could make one with ATMega, 2-4 infra-sensors to detect walls and the cleaning HW.

I also like to imagine the way to charge the robots - build a charging area and have them literally come and charge themselves.

Then why is it that modern humanity has turrets that can acquire targets, but not robots that run around shooting and acquiring targets?

Because it is alot more then just a "walking autoturret"
You need to be able to path find in real space. This can be done, requires years upon years upon years of research, not to mention allowing them to have orders to stay around and patrol.Avoiding friendly fire. (calculating bullet trajectory to make sure when they are shooting at a bad guy that one of their comrades doesnt run in front of the bullets. which turrets don't do)
Hiding behind cover.
Making tactical descicians in real time, without a person remote controlling them. <-- super hard to do
(and no, you can't say it works because the player is controlling them because in game the player isnt really "there" so to speak.)

Communicating with the colonists, to make plans. (a sort of chat-programming system)

all of that.

In one piece of super advanced software on a robot made of metal.

Your point is invalid itself.

The AI and hardware required to build a robot is beyond that of a food dispenser...

Here is a defense robot made from rubbers and paper. All arguments are now invalid.

.
I don't think you understood my argument.

My point was that , you don't need to have super high Artificial intelligence technology to build the things he pointed out. (in his case auto turrets, solar panels, and nutrient dispensers)
So the fact that a person could build a useless robot that shoots, out of paper, means that autoturrets are perfectly possible without high technology.(which you do need to make advanced star wars style, AI robots)

Some of them actually are, and those that are, are the ones that probably wouldn't be able to construct a robot. A researcher is more fitting to the job, no?
And yes, Tynan said we are in the middle technology tier, which means interplanetary/stellar spacecraft. Robots fall short of that.
I don't see why even a medieval slave oaf with no research would be able to construct solar panels, automatic turrets and nutrient paste dispensary, but not a simple robot.

So in order to have a nutrient dispenser, solar panels and a auto turret without the tech to build super intelligent robots (which only appear at higher tech levels) is perfectly possible and is more likely.

And therefore my point is valid.

Thank you.

I am firmly against colonists building robots, buy em from higher tech traders.

Remember tynan has stated our colonists are not "professional colonists"  i doubt any of them could build a robot.and the world we are on is in an strange quasi industrial state, robots are for higher tech level people and people whoa are trained to ONLY BUILD ROBOTS in my opinion.

Some of them actually are, and those that are, are the ones that probably wouldn't be able to construct a robot. A researcher is more fitting to the job, no?
And yes, Tynan said we are in the middle technology tier, which means interplanetary/stellar spacecraft. Robots fall short of that.
I don't see why even a medieval slave oaf with no research would be able to construct solar panels, automatic turrets and nutrient paste dispensary, but not a simple robot.

You think a robot would be easier to build then a solar panel and a food dispenser?

The AI and hardware required to build a robot is beyond that of a food dispenser that simply squashes things and dispenses the squashed stuff (which i bet is what the "nutrient paste" dispenser does.. It is also beyond the bits of silicone needed to make a solar panel. And the AI is beyond that of an auto turret.

Colonist 1 (a lifelong Tinkerer): *Grabs a bunch of electrical wires and metal and blades that fell from the spaceship*
colonist 1: *Makes something similar to a blender with it* (albeit a rather large blender, because he has no idea how to do something like this at a small scale with what is available to him)
*throws spinach potatoes and banana in it"
*adds eggs*
*blends it all up until its a fine paste*
Colonist 1:"Here you go"
Colonist 2: "What is that crap?"
Colonist 1: "I call it nutrient paste, its super nutritious"
Colonist 2: *eats a small amount*
Colonist 2: "Nutrient paste eh?, its pretty good"

Actually you can build your own solar panel in your kitchen if you have the ability t get the solar cells or make your own from copper (you can make low yeild solar cells from copper), of course processed silicone is best.
Assuming the colonists have access to copper (which they do) or solar cells fell from the ship, they could cobble together a solar panel.
http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/echem/echem2.html

But they couldn't cobble together a robot with that stuff especially one with AI taht requires a-lot of technology.

A medieval oaf honestly shouldn't be able to build those anyway (even though they can in the game right now). He is from a medieval world. tHat lacks technology beyond an iron sword. He was probably being carted as a slave.

interplanetary/stellar spacecraft

Interstellar spacecraft eh?
What he means by "Not professional colonists" is that they aren't prepared for this, It was just a cruise ship that crashed.

In RimWorld, your colonists are not professional settlers â€" they’re survivors from a crashed passenger liner. They'll be accountants, homemakers, journalists, cooks, nobles, urchins, and soldiers.

I doubt an accountant could build a robot from scratch.I can also assure you that the accountant didn't build the spacecraft.

Also rimworlds, as stated by tynan, are usually in an industrial tech level, which is why we have no energy guns unless we buy them or get them late game, because the tech of the planet we are on is at the tech level where people are still using pistols and bullets.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pIZyKif0bFbBWten4drrm7kfSSfvBoJPgG9-ywfN8j8/pub\

also:

Your starting colonists in RimWorld are at a technological level in the middle of this span. But you may end up interacting with people at much lower and higher levels, as well as acquiring and using their tools and weapons. In RimWorld, a single fight can involve a bow and arrow, a revolver, a charged-shot pulse rifle, and a near-magical teleportation device.

I believe we should get robots from a trader. Not build them. It makes more sense this way.

whats with the é

É is a fancy way of typing e And possiblé is a terriblé, terriblé thing to write

é is an e with an accent mark.
Uséd in spanish..
and woah.. it looks wéird whén you typé with thésé things.

I like that, you could try to prevent a reactor explosion.
That would make a very neat story.
If implemented well.