less suicidal AI

Started by Lechai, October 14, 2013, 07:34:50 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Lechai

This isn't for the cheap ideas thread because it requires more than a simple change or addition due a rework to the AI

The idea is that raiders will be more cautious of confined or narrow area's with a high concentration of blood/bodies in the area.
This would cause them to circumnavigate death alleys and choke-points unless you are constantly cleaning up the bodies and blood (ie cleaning up the evidence of a trap).
Instead they would use grenades and fire to burn down walls to make alternate entry points.

This would only really effect late-game as there hasn't been enough blood spilled early on to become enough of a factor.

thoughts/suggestions appreciated.

IncredibleNode

That could however become quite deadly to the extent where large waves in Randy Random could become unsurvivable :/ and cause utter destruction at an Unfair or Over powered level
Check out my latest Forum Thread!
Extra Walls suggestion:
http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=253.0

Lechai

waves in randy are already random... so I'm not sure how that applies?

Tynan

#3
I have several plans to make some raiders better at handling choking/funneling strategies. The methods that some players have been using did not come up in testing before this month. Which is fine - that's why it's important to get feedback from real players!
Tynan Sylvester - @TynanSylvester - Tynan's Blog

Lechai

Quote from: Tynan on October 15, 2013, 03:30:50 AM
I have several plans to make some raiders better at handling choking/funneling strategies. The methods that some players have been using did not come up in testing before this month. Which is fine - that's why it's important to get feedback from real players!
so your already on it...
rgr

mumblemumble

Also, would be kind of nice if colonist AI could drop what they were doing to fight to some extent. Yeah, I know commanding them is the way to go, but having someone trying to harvest food while being shot is a little aggravating anyway. Would be nice if they could simply get to cover and shoot when a hostile is in range, perhaps having this behavior as a "job" like everything else, to be turned on and off, independent of drafting.
Why to people worry about following their heart? Its lodged in your chest, you won't accidentally leave it behind.

-----

Its bad because reasons, and if you don't know the reasons, you are horrible. You cannot ask what the reasons are or else you doubt it. But the reasons are irrefutable. Logic.

British

Quote from: Tynan on October 15, 2013, 03:30:50 AM
I have several plans to make some raiders better at handling choking/funneling strategies. The methods that some players have been using did not come up in testing before this month. Which is fine - that's why it's important to get feedback from real players!
Yes, that's a problem I've seen and that quite bothered me: if you created a tower-defense-like path to your colony, the raiders will follow that path no matter what.
They should be able to (for instance) decide if they see an easy access, and if not, they take down the closest wall.
Then once they've breached that wall, they assess the situation: if there is a colonist/turret in sight, go for it, else look for a visible access, or go for a wall again.
Now if/when raiders' objectives are implemented (like capture a specific colonist), they'll have to prioritize that as well.

Quote from: mumblemumble on October 15, 2013, 03:59:42 AM
Would be nice if they could simply get to cover and shoot when a hostile is in range, perhaps having this behavior as a "job" like everything else, to be turned on and off, independent of drafting.
I agree they should go get some cover (though... where would that be ? far out of range ? a specific spot we'd have to define ?), but that should be it.
They shouldn't respond to being attacked, as long as we still have the drafting mechanic.

Semmy

Basicly a raider under fire should look around him and think (make calculation) if there is any viable cover nearby wich he could reach before being shot.

Another option is a group or raiders running forward the first few getting popped and the rest scattering around to find cover.


Als i dont know if i want less suicidal ai.
I do remember a warhammer fantasy model called the goblin fanatic. I have never cried and laughed so much because of a single model.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke

Aerouge

#8
Quote from: British on October 15, 2013, 04:32:53 AM
Quote from: Tynan on October 15, 2013, 03:30:50 AM
I have several plans to make some raiders better at handling choking/funneling strategies. The methods that some players have been using did not come up in testing before this month. Which is fine - that's why it's important to get feedback from real players!
Yes, that's a problem I've seen and that quite bothered me: if you created a tower-defense-like path to your colony, the raiders will follow that path no matter what.
They should be able to (for instance) decide if they see an easy access, and if not, they take down the closest wall.
Then once they've breached that wall, they assess the situation: if there is a colonist/turret in sight, go for it, else look for a visible access, or go for a wall again.
Now if/when raiders' objectives are implemented (like capture a specific colonist), they'll have to prioritize that as well.
this sounds like a good reason to dig your camps into mountains. And if raiders take down mountains than it seems like a good way to get the entire (and limited) map leveled. Currently there is already a lack of map / resources, as the only ressources you have unlimited are energy and food. Once you dug up all the iron you have to depend on trade and watch your colony die slowly. NPC´s destroying the limited landscape we have does not sound like a good idea.

Quote from: British on October 15, 2013, 04:32:53 AM
I agree they should go get some cover (though... where would that be ? far out of range ? a specific spot we'd have to define ?), but that should be it.
They shouldn't respond to being attacked, as long as we still have the drafting mechanic.
Well the question here is... do people prefer to micro- or to macro-manage their settlements?
I think after setting up the routine (Raiers land -> Draft colonists -> Move colonists to sand-bagged shootingrange -> undraft surviving colonists) has been clicked the thousanth time people might get a litle pissed

British

Quote from: Aerouge on October 15, 2013, 06:12:49 AM
this sounds like a good reason to dig your camps into mountains. And if raiders take down mountains than it seems like a good way to get the entire (and limited) map leveled. Currently there is already a lack of map / resources, as the only ressources you have unlimited are energy and food. Once you dug up all the iron you have to depend on trade and watch your colony die slowly. NPC´s destroying the limited landscape we have does not sound like a good idea.
I talked about the problem of having too many resources here, and one solution I propose is to indeed have the raiders go a bit more after structures if there's no direct threat/target in sight.

Now I do agree that hiding inside a moutain would kind of counter this, but I still find that it is a better idea than forcing the raiders through a tunnel of doom just because they'll go after the first entrance the pathfinding can get for them...
And even if you're deep inside a moutain, you still had to build structures to close/defend your base, so raiders would go after that rather than, as you said, destroy the landscape.
Also, Tynan implemented a new behavior to the raiders a few days/weeks ago, where they actually burn up a structure if colonists are walled in it... so why not extend that capability ?

FangoWolf

If I were a raider:
1) if I lost someone I would pull back and regroup and decide if the risk is worth it.
2) I would have some form of combatting turrets:
    EMP gernades, robot mini turrets, robot gophers that targetet power couplings,  armored cart to get past kill zones, something
3) Sneak attack outside the walls to take a prisoner for the slavers
4) salvage outside walls or facilities away from the camp.  Take what you can and run.

GC13

If I were a raider I straight up wouldn't attack people with defenses. The whole point of raiding is to get something for nothing: you either sneak in and take over without the target being able to mount a resistance, or you overwhelm them with suppressive fire until they back off or you toss a grenade into their face.

It's pretty basic that every colonist is going to be armed, so raiders wouldn't want to fight unless they outnumbered you. Really though, stealth is the big thing: until they can hit us without us seeing it coming, raiders are going to be a joke one way or another. As their strength increases through balancing efforts you'll find the sweet spot between "too weak to be a threat" and "so strong they inflict heavy damage every time" is small, and real raiders would only attack when they can hit "successful attack that wipes the player out" a high percentage of the time.

mumblemumble

Quote from: British on October 15, 2013, 04:32:53 AM
I agree they should go get some cover (though... where would that be ? far out of range ? a specific spot we'd have to define ?), but that should be it.
They shouldn't respond to being attacked, as long as we still have the drafting mechanic.
See, thats why I said it should be a "task" like mining, hauling, stuff like that. Turn it on or off so you don't need to draft every single person just so they will stop hauling metal and getting shot in the face, but can also disable if you wish.

As for cover, that might be an issue, but doing a "view" check of raiders and always putting a piece of cover between them and raiders could work, if possible, or if not nearby, just attacking.
Why to people worry about following their heart? Its lodged in your chest, you won't accidentally leave it behind.

-----

Its bad because reasons, and if you don't know the reasons, you are horrible. You cannot ask what the reasons are or else you doubt it. But the reasons are irrefutable. Logic.

Haplo

#13
Maybe something like a siren:
You can build it and if installed you get an item in the architect to switch the colony wide alarm on/off.
When the alarm is off, your colonists do their normal stuff.
When the alarm is on, your colonists go to marked soldier spots or marked civilian spots.
But in this mode it should still be possible to draft a civilian to repair a turret or something.

mumblemumble

Not sure having an alarm like that would really be a good idea, since it still required manual usage when the idea is to make AI do things at least SLIGHTLY on their own (not walking around getting shot without the slightest care).
Why to people worry about following their heart? Its lodged in your chest, you won't accidentally leave it behind.

-----

Its bad because reasons, and if you don't know the reasons, you are horrible. You cannot ask what the reasons are or else you doubt it. But the reasons are irrefutable. Logic.